Micro 1059: Micro & Normal Stuff | GAME OVER

[scamper]

hello everyone!

VOTE: Donempire

[scamper]

Hello everyone!! I'm really excited to play with you all

I have an idea, hear me out. The thing is, scamper's avatar is too cute. It's too powerful. If he's scum, we're literally never going to catch him because people will be about to vote and then they'll look at that cute little cat and go "aww" and then not have the heart to go through with it. So what I propose is that we eliminate him now before he has a chance to post again. I've run the numbers on expected win percentages and there's no time to explain it in detail, but trust me, it's the mechanically optimal play.

VOTE: scamper

Quickly, it's our only chance!

<.<

[scamper]

i am!

i kinda think phoenix is townie

[scamper]

i have no thoughts on the miller claim right now, maybe later i will

i am!

i kinda think phoenix is townie

I think meg is town

Why? (to both)

your approach struck me as overcautious town, and i think zeroing in specifically on the way someone worded something that bothered you is +town

[scamper]

I think the best way to move forward is to L-1 datisi. Days move faster with the threat of a lolhammer on the horizon, and if it does come the second day also moves fast. So i invite the miller to cast their vote, or anyone who wants to be the best player in this here lobby

no, and i dislike this a lot

[scamper]

phoenix kinda feels like he's trying to be ~logically correct and consistent~ without having the actual fire behind his posting

does that make sense? i hope that makes sense

scamper, what do you think

my way too early solve is 2 in {phoenix, done, coral}

i kind of get the sense that's wat phoenix is like as a plyer and i'm not sure it's AI

and i don't have nearly that level of confidence in people being town just yet

i don't know why you asked me this tbh

[scamper]

Phoenix's persistence is slightly towny, I think. As scum he would probably recognize that he isn't really getting townread for his approach and may change tactics. I do agree that he sounds a little stiff, but that may just be a personality or writing style trait.

persistence in doing what, exactly?

[scamper]

Phoenix's persistence is slightly towny, I think. As scum he would probably recognize that he isn't really getting townread for his approach and may change tactics. I do agree that he sounds a little stiff, but that may just be a personality or writing style trait.

persistence in doing what, exactly?

He's moving things forward but only along one path. If he were trying to look towny by having a lot of content, I'd expect him to be tackling different subjects and angles. His continued arguing what is basically the same point with Ausuka isn't really doing anything to make him look better on a surface level. To me it comes across as a tunneled townie.

he's not really pushing ausuka though, so i don't see how he's supposed to be "tunneled".....

[scamper]

Also, what I'm saying

did

happen you can legit read the first few posts in the game for yourself. I'm not backing down from the statements I've said either, I still think it's quite a wolfy opening but I don't feel like getting into a battle of words with someone who got

huffy and upset over being called out in a game of mafia for their posting

. It's a waste of my time so I moved onto something I found more pressing. Did the anger make me weaken the scumread? Yeah, because it starts to seem a bit personality based, but I think Datisi's angle on Ausuka isn't W/W and I think it felt like a TMI sort of angle. AKA: If there's a wolf in Ausuka and Datisi's prob prob Datisi atm.

I also don't think Meg/Other anime A name are W/W don't have much stock in their statements alone though besides "vibes"

i greatly disagree with both your earlier characterizion of ausuka and this one - she made 2 very short posts that didn't say much at all and you called it "overblown", now you accuse her of being "huffy and upset" because she (rightly imo) pushed back against you for saying that, but again the scale of the response is really not at all what you're describing here...

it just feels incredibly misrep-y

[scamper]

Do you think that he hasn't been persistent in his questioning of Ausuka?

he has 13 posts and we are less than 24 hours into day 1, i don't see how you can call anything "persistent" at this point. asking questions seems like a playstyle thing for him, and again i don't see how having expressed, at best, mild suspicion, equates to being "tunneled"

[scamper]

I would probably be switching my vote to Don here but I think they're at E-2 already and it seems a little twisted to put them at E-1 for suggesting that we put someone else at E-1. It does feel like they're kind of all over the place and I struggle to see a consistent town mindset. That makes me think they could be intentionally trying to look like the town they describe as "playing however they want". The issue is that I don't understand the motivations behind anything they're doing, so it just feels random for the sake of chaos.

I also changed my mind and decided Ari is town!

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Coral

[scamper]

This post is important

I would probably be switching my vote to Don here but I think they're at E-2 already and it seems a little twisted to put them at E-1 for suggesting that we put someone else at E-1. It does feel like they're kind of all over the place and I struggle to see a consistent town mindset. That makes me think they could be intentionally trying to look like the town they describe as "playing however they want". The issue is that I don't understand the motivations behind anything they're doing, so it just feels random for the sake of chaos.

Here is an attempt to soft buddy me. Coral knows i am under fire, and by saying they wont vote for me theres an attempt here. Of course by saying they're still suspicious of me there is no concrete stance taken here. What they are doing is to signal to me "everyone suspects you, but i can be open minded". And as scum, they know i'm town, and would want to leave a positive impression on me without going too hard on buddying.

i'm not sure this is what she was going for but i did also feel like the wording there wwas off, and I get this overwhelming sense of *fakeness* from her posts. The read on phoenix felt like it was working backwards from a conclusion.

[scamper]

That's because it kind of was! I felt a town vibe first and then tried to figure out where it was coming from after. I'm not terribly convinced it was a great reason, but it was fun to explore!

As town my mind is often a jumble of mixed-up thoughts and feelings. As scum I take care to express my thoughts clearly, which is easy to do because they're fake, and have clean and planned-out progressions. I wouldn't ever have reason to express a thought that I wasn't already confident I could state in a cohesive way and back up later, unless maybe put on the spot by pressure and I need to come up with a read on a partner. I think that's one of my weaknesses.

ok....i'm not really sure this changes my view, though

[scamper]

reading along the first half of page 6, i am not sure i get either coral or xayah votes.

it's like. i think coral's reason for switching off aristeia is *fine*, and i understand what she was trying to say when she said "tunnelled". maybe it's not the traditional use of that word, but it seemed obvious to me it was meant as "pho is only focusing here" rather than "pho is trying to fuckign murder ausuka". i don't really agree that that's townie, but. the "i changed my mind and ari is town!" did feel a bit ~performative~ to me, but i think performative-scum would've put more effort in than just saying "ye lol idk gut".

also yes i hate xayah misreps of ausuka. but i also don't think they're scummy because i struggle to see what is scum!xayah trying to achieve there. like, she's not pushing ausuka. she keeps insisting ausuka had an overblown reaction despite the entire game telling her otherwise. the only scum motivation i see here is wifom trying to purposefully go against the thread and like idk.

also i am slightly getting worried about scamper because the fact they're posting against both of these is lowkey concerning to me

yes, i am assuming i am correct in both of them being town, shut up, i am very good at this game.

well i think the reasons you have for townreading both of them feel a bit contrived and i'm not sure why i should be thinking the same way as you. idk, i'm suspicious of like half the game right now

[scamper]

i should probably check some pho towngames to see if he's like this as town, usually. about to go to work, so i can't do that at the time, but. at some point soon(tm).

admittedly the readlist from phoenix doesn't do a whole lot for me, but i'm not sure what to be looking for in a list on page 7...

[scamper]

i didnt express a read on coral either. but i'll be clear to avoid confusion, i lean scum on her. i think she's playing overly safe.

as for scamper , he doesnt bring up any new points himself. his playstyle seems reactionary and too safe. I don't like it.

dont have a read on anyone else. games too slow

i dont know what you mean by "not bringing up new points", i feel like i've had original thoughts, and i dont think ive been playing it particularly safe with how ive been approaching people. you can call it "reactionary" ig, but that's just bcause i prefer to wait and observe until something catches my attention

[scamper]

i didnt express a read on coral either. but i'll be clear to avoid confusion, i lean scum on her. i think she's playing overly safe.

as for scamper , he doesnt bring up any new points himself. his playstyle seems reactionary and too safe. I don't like it.

dont have a read on anyone else. games too slow

i dont know what you mean by "not bringing up new points", i feel like i've had original thoughts, and i dont think ive been playing it particularly safe with how ive been approaching people. you can call it "reactionary" ig, but that's just bcause i prefer to wait and observe until something catches my attention

But that is what i am saying. I'm not saying you have unoriginal comments. You wait for someone else to push or do something and then comment on it, you never start a discussion yourself. Not to say questioning others is bad, but if its the only thing you are doing then theres nothing to analyze you by. Like you said, you are simply observing the conversation, that makes you hard to read and slows down the tempo.

As for the safety of your comments, you have been very distanced. No hard stances, no serious pushes. You are playing it safe.

i don't think anything right now merits a hard stance or a serious push, though

i can't manufacture opinions i don't have

[scamper]

That's because it kind of was! I felt a town vibe first and then tried to figure out where it was coming from after. I'm not terribly convinced it was a great reason, but it was fun to explore!

As town my mind is often a jumble of mixed-up thoughts and feelings. As scum I take care to express my thoughts clearly, which is easy to do because they're fake, and have clean and planned-out progressions. I wouldn't ever have reason to express a thought that I wasn't already confident I could state in a cohesive way and back up later, unless maybe put on the spot by pressure and I need to come up with a read on a partner. I think that's one of my weaknesses.

ok....i'm not really sure this changes my view, though

Okay. What about 123? What do you think is my mindset or motivation behind making that post as scum? Can you explain more where the feeling of "off" is coming from, and why that's more likely to come from scum?

it feels like it's adding to the suspicion on Don but in an overexplain-y way to justify it and the suggestion he's intentionally playing chaotically feels a bit far-fetched for it to be an actual thought

[scamper]

i don't think anything right now merits a hard stance or a serious push, though

i can't manufacture opinions i don't have

You make the pushes yourself, thats my point. Like this:
VOTE: Scamper
And this is a serious wagon.

Remember how i said we needed someone on L-1? The one being wagoned is a factor in contributing to discussion, but so is everyone else on the wagon. Once the wagon disperses, there will be many posts to retroactively read , at least 4 vote posts for example. That way with a simple shitwagon in rvs you end up forcing 5 people to participate! You end up with someone who is a hard read by most of the town, lots of posts to investigate, maybe a claim.
Now that i said this, lolwagoning scamper probably wont have the same effect. But i can still make a solid case against scamper, and you can read my case, agree with me and bandwagon scamper. We receive the benefits i mentioned without any drawbacks!
So, i havent made my case yet, and i wont until i wake up, but the sooner everyone wagons scamper, the faster this game will run

i could make a push if i wanted to, i just dont. i'm not going to, like, fake confidence or be over-aggressive cuz more often than not that leads to misunderstandings. i've already said i've found a good number of people sus and explained why, i'm going to solve in the way i prefer to regardless of whether you like it or not

i'm not sure what ur hoping to get out of me by doing this exactly...

[scamper]

(i also dont think your playstyle as you describe it is actually likely to produce good reads but thats not a debate i want to get too deep into)

[scamper]

i am on the lookout of people pushing for ez misyeets

your pushes on them are kinda borderline easy but i haven't made my mind up if they're actually scummy yet

i don't see how either of them are easier yeets than phoenix......

[scamper]

weren't a few other people pushing phoenix tho

okay, like. what i wanted to say is that i am on the lookout on people who are pushing potential townies for reasons that i don't exactly jive with. i'm not saying i have to agree, just that it makes sense even if i disagree. and your pushes around the two of those didn't make immediate sense to me. plus the fact i think they're town currently. and also the fact that singling in on one easy misyeet is risky because if that one somehow slips then you're in trouble, while testing the waters for multiple misyeets and seeing if there's any other easy ones would be Better. also pho could be your partner technically.

i did not feel like writing all of that out, so i hoped it would be self-evident by saying "scum wants easy stuff" sorry if it wasn't

pretend the paragraph is well-formatted, i'm about to sleep and i don't have the nerves to format it coherently

again, by your own definition i would say phoenix is significantly "easier" any way you look at it, and in a vacuum the newb-ish player is always going to be an easier yeet. the idea that us disagreeing on reads makes me scummy just feels like a very reductive way of thinking to me, like it feels like you're jumping to a conclusion rather than trying to figure out whether my reasoning is genuine or not

[scamper]

i feel like you're still not understanding what i'm saying in that post or the posts leading up to it, but i am about to pass out so. tomorrow i will rephrase if needed ig

no i'm pretty sure i understand, it's just that i don't agree with your thinking, i don't see coral/xayah as "easy" misyeets, you seem to think they are clearly town and me not seeing this reflects poorly on my alignment, i don't agree with your reasons for townreading them and the logic for doing so seems kind of reach-y

and all that being said i don't really know what it means for your alignment this game

[scamper]

The treatment of the Miller claim by xayah and auska sounds townie. I don't see an issue

can you elaborate on this?

[scamper]

Remember how i said we needed someone on L-1? The one being wagoned is a factor in contributing to discussion, but so is everyone else on the wagon. Once the wagon disperses, there will be many posts to retroactively read , at least 4 vote posts for example. That way with a simple shitwagon in rvs you end up forcing 5 people to participate! You end up with someone who is a hard read by most of the town, lots of posts to investigate, maybe a claim.
Now that i said this, lolwagoning scamper probably wont have the same effect. But i can still make a solid case against scamper, and you can read my case, agree with me and bandwagon scamper. We receive the benefits i mentioned without any drawbacks!
So, i havent made my case yet, and i wont until i wake up, but the sooner everyone wagons scamper, the faster this game will run

You want an e-1 wagon on scamper because you want to analyze the wagon even though you can make a case? That doesn't sound pro town.

I mean, even if you think it's anti town does that make Done mafia?

Not necessarily but it's worth finding out isn't it?

I mean donempire wants an e-1 wagon and hasn't a reason for it other than to have it and review it. He doesn't even say it's for pressure. I think there'san actual reason to push here. I'd rather see an organic wagon.

why does that make him scum? i don't agree with the tactic but that doesnt make it scum motivated. the way youre presenting it feels disingenuous, i think it was obvious his scumread on me was legitimate even if he didn't have a fully fleshed out case but you act like he has no reason

VOTE: Galron

[scamper]

and of course people are calling that entrance fine when i dont really agree...

[scamper]

i feel like you're still not understanding what i'm saying in that post or the posts leading up to it, but i am about to pass out so. tomorrow i will rephrase if needed ig

no i'm pretty sure i understand, it's just that i don't agree with your thinking, i don't see coral/xayah as "easy" misyeets, you seem to think they are clearly town and me not seeing this reflects poorly on my alignment, i don't agree with your reasons for townreading them and the logic for doing so seems kind of reach-y

and all that being said i don't really know what it means for your alignment this game

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Straw_Man

thats not what im doing, but ok

[scamper]

i feel like you're still not understanding what i'm saying in that post or the posts leading up to it, but i am about to pass out so. tomorrow i will rephrase if needed ig

no i'm pretty sure i understand, it's just that i don't agree with your thinking, i don't see coral/xayah as "easy" misyeets, you seem to think they are clearly town and me not seeing this reflects poorly on my alignment, i don't agree with your reasons for townreading them and the logic for doing so seems kind of reach-y

and all that being said i don't really know what it means for your alignment this game

i feel like both coral and xayah did something surface-level scummy that could be pushable, because it's not very likely someone would get flak for pushing them after they did scummy-looking things

idk how else to explain it other than "scamper making a relatively safe (but surface-level) push against people i have reasons to townread = i should probably keep an eye out"

i feel like you're taking my arguments and amplifying their intensity to the point where they don't make sense and aren't what i said, then arguing against the amplified version

i don't think it makes you scummy exactly, but it's making this conversation Difficult(tm) and i kinda wanna drop it now because i don't think it's going anywhere productive

for whatever reason i don't take an issue with the way you worded it here, just the initial presentation of it didn't sit right with me

[scamper]

xayah is kind of striking me as overconfident town now (which is kind of how i feel about don as well)

[scamper]

I shall probably need help with some stuff as in a bit of clarification on if some reads are based on familiarity or based on things in this thread (if that makes sense) it's my biggest disconnect with this game rn

ftr i have no completed games on this account and am not bringing past stuff into things too much, if its a meta read or w/e i will try to make it understandable in the context of this game

[scamper]

Don't know what happened to my reply.

It was something like you don't see the thing I do, at least the way I'm seeing it. How does that make me maf?

because i think trying to misrepresent what someone is saying in order to push him is scummy and the way you argued it was a very superficial representation of what don was saying

[scamper]

weren't a few other people pushing phoenix tho

okay, like. what i wanted to say is that i am on the lookout on people who are pushing potential townies for reasons that i don't exactly jive with. i'm not saying i have to agree, just that it makes sense even if i disagree. and your pushes around the two of those didn't make immediate sense to me. plus the fact i think they're town currently. and also the fact that singling in on one easy misyeet is risky because if that one somehow slips then you're in trouble, while testing the waters for multiple misyeets and seeing if there's any other easy ones would be Better. also pho could be your partner technically.

i did not feel like writing all of that out, so i hoped it would be self-evident by saying "scum wants easy stuff" sorry if it wasn't

pretend the paragraph is well-formatted, i'm about to sleep and i don't have the nerves to format it coherently

again, by your own definition i would say phoenix is significantly "easier" any way you look at it, and in a vacuum the newb-ish player is always going to be an easier yeet. the idea that us disagreeing on reads makes me scummy just feels like a very reductive way of thinking to me, like it feels like you're jumping to a conclusion rather than trying to figure out whether my reasoning is genuine or not

I don't agree with this. New players will be under a lot of scrutiny and they are more likely to make mistakes as scum, but they are also likely to make mistakes as town. Experienced players know this and dont bandwagon them blindly, and wait for harder tells.

If anything a new player is harder to push because so many people town and scum will come to their defense claiming their inexperience means their posts are NAI.

I havent seen if anyone did this regarding phoenix specifically, just saying that i dont agree with the idea that new players are easy to lynch, i think calling anyone an easy mislynch is just wrong. Even if its easier to push someone compared to someone else actually lynching anyone requires about the same effort.

Since i say this i dont really jive well with dats reasoning that you are pushing easy mislynches either. I think your pushes havent been the problem.

tyhis is verging into theory territory, but i disagree with this. in general i think with more experience a player becomes harder to elim (unless they have a very obvious meta). in a pl like this you can basically predict who the likely elims are regardless of alignment, certain people are just never going to get voted day 1 so the elim is likely to default to someone with less charisma. phoenix is clearly capable of puttin words together nicely but in a table where no one knows his meta he woulsd have been an easy push, imo

(of course, i am currently voting his replacement...)

[scamper]

meg is still townie.

the wiki link was funny but i also find it townie. it doesn't win favours it doesn't "look" townie but it's showing a thought process.

ari is also lowkey townie. the agruing with xayah doesn't do much for her position in game which like. idk why scum!her would care kinda. yes this is directly going against what i said earlier about their convo, fight me

every other slot feels muddy

ama

what on earth is this read.........................................

[scamper]

meg is still townie. the wiki link was funny but i also find it townie. it doesn't win favours it doesn't "look" townie but it's showing a thought process.

ari is also lowkey townie. the agruing with xayah doesn't do much for her position in game which like. idk why scum!her would care kinda. yes this is directly going against what i said earlier about their convo, fight me

every other slot feels muddy

ama

Interesting, i think he's town as well. The content of his posts arent what convinces me, but rather i think the scum have a stranglehold on the conversation and someone as inactive as him wouldnt be able to manipulate the discourse as much as it has been manipulated. The days are going agonizingly slowly and nothings getting done, even though there have been many opportunities for cross examination and wagons.

Which brings me to the point that of the 3 most active users, meaning ari, you and ausuka, one of you is almost certainly scum. The reason i didnt include xayah is she seems to distanced from the general discourse and seems to be doing her own thing.

this also feels somewhat contrived and arbitrary honestly
with the caveat that i am not stating these are my reads, it is entirely possible for there to be games where active town goes in circles while scum lurks it out, especially when one of the active towns you mentioned is strongly suspecting the other
i'm not scumreading meg but i wouldn't clear them for being inactive...

[scamper]

also the scamper scumcase when you can pls

I gave up on it.

why is that?

[scamper]

fwiw i think ari's paranoia of the miller claim is likely coming from a town mindset

[scamper]

I lowkey think maybe the scum team is just Ausuka/Datisi for ~reasons~ but I want Dats to roll town with me finally so I am going to hope it's just no true ^^

You hit the nail on the head. What would the reasons you mentioned be? Gut, any posts? Because you're correct, but i wanna see you solve this yourself first.

they have a level of comfort interacting with each other that I think is missing in their interactions with other people.

i think this is if anything decent evidence they are *not* the scumteam

i don't think this day 1 hero solve type of mindset is likely to succeed (bcuz your chances of getting the exact team are way lower than just getting one scum) but i do think it's a townie thought process

(and i'm not sayng workldbuilding/theorizing is bad, i have had thoughts running through my head ive just kept them to myself ostly)

[scamper]

I lowkey think maybe the scum team is just Ausuka/Datisi for ~reasons~ but I want Dats to roll town with me finally so I am going to hope it's just no true ^^

You hit the nail on the head. What would the reasons you mentioned be? Gut, any posts? Because you're correct, but i wanna see you solve this yourself first.

they have a level of comfort interacting with each other that I think is missing in their interactions with other people.

Sadly that is probably NAI. They are familiar, they've been friendly since page 1.
I think the miller claim is something we should be thinking about more and how it pertains to an Ausuka/datisi team, specifically ausuka's alignment. First post says that scum have daychat, but it doesnt say if the daychat opened before the game started or once the day began. Normally, daychat starts before the game does, so a miller claim could have been strategized beforehand. If not, there is no way i see scum!ausuka fakeclaiming miller without consulting with her buddy, she posted 10 minutes after game started.

@Irrelephant can we get info on when the daychat was enabled, before or after day began?

this feels fairly random and now i'm wondering if you were looking for a way to ask about daychat to get townread.....

[scamper]

I honestly have no clue how anything Ari has been doing in the last few pages could come from a town mindset. It's vague, weak, circular arguements for a read that hasn't been fleshed out since day 2.

i don't see how any of that matters

weak arguments != scum

i think the way she's handling her scumreads and her approach to them is generally very likely to be town, she doesnt need to put herself out in front so much as mafia and the way she is treating her reads makse me think she really believes in them

i don't think ausuka's response to ari is scummy and i'm leaning on it being +town for her too

i'm not scumreading datisi in this exchange, but i am also explicitly *not* townreading him

[scamper]

Maybe I just rolled miller


Like as scum I literally never claim miller, not for strategic reasons but because I would never involve myself in all this claim speculation BS voluntarily

Your partner might have told you to.
I dont think this is a point worth discussing until one of the mods clarifies this. I'll just say this, claiming miller as scum in a game with uncertain setup is a gambit with very little risk. I dont think your claim by itself should be trusted.

this again feels like its blindly hedging rather than making any sort of actual conclusion on ausuka's alignment

[scamper]

scamper could you give some of your thoughts on your townreads so far?

wdym thoughts? like just who im townreading, or going into details?

[scamper]

now i feel like the way don is approaching the ari/ausuka argument is scummy

[scamper]

I honestly have no clue how anything Ari has been doing in the last few pages could come from a town mindset. It's vague, weak, circular arguements for a read that hasn't been fleshed out since day 2.

i don't see how any of that matters

weak arguments != scum

i think the way she's handling her scumreads and her approach to them is generally very likely to be town, she doesnt need to put herself out in front so much as mafia and the way she is treating her reads makse me think she really believes in them

i don't think ausuka's response to ari is scummy and i'm leaning on it being +town for her too

i'm not scumreading datisi in this exchange, but i am also explicitly *not* townreading him

It's being presented in an incredibly contrived manner.
The approach is terrible logically and is transparantly bad.
Ausuka responded with the type of frustration I'd expect from a townie in this situation.

Why do you think the approach is townie? Because it puts her front and center? That is literally what a charismatic mafia would WANT to do. It's an incredibly powerful position, and I would not be surprised if this kind of position is why the whole ordeal is so convulited in the first place.

again, you can think her reasoning is contrived and terrible logically but that doesnt make her scum. i think the conviction behind her pushing the read is genuine and her reasoning for it makes sense from her perspective and i dont actually get what your issue with it is supposed to be

no, i dont think a charismtic mafia plays the way ari has, i think charismatic scum players are good at making themselves not be the center of attention. premising it on the idea that "a good scum could play this way" is pretty terrible logic in and of itself. i think that player archetype is actually fairly rare and a player like ari is significantly more likely to take a backseat as scum.

[scamper]

i should say now while i thought don pushing on me could be misguided townie pov, him saying he's going to case me and then abandoning it is +scum

[scamper]

as scum I don't take a backseat I just take thread control and murder anyone I want

I definitely don't telegraph a push from page 1 though lol

<.<

[scamper]

i think meg is, like, wildly incorrect but it might be townie

[scamper]

and so now i have ari/xay/auss as townie, meg maybe a shade below that

and so this is kind of making me suspicious of dats in the remainder of people, because i dont think hes towntold and some of his takes have made me raise my eyebrow a bit

truthfully i had been theorizing dats/coral in the early game but i think that is slightly less likely right now

and i'm also finding don suspicious now

[scamper]

I don't think ari is obfuscating their involvement or whatever but I think most of the other things meg said is correct - Ari is trying to push absolute nonsense and circular logic here imo and I would just expect better from town her

Like surely almost everyone can agree that the "I don't care about making sense I care about being right" line was terrible

i think a line like that is way more likely to come from town

[scamper]

as a mater of fact

UNVOTE:

because while i think galron is kind of scummy he feels maybe a bit less likely to be teamed with people in my view of the game right now

[scamper]

i mean maybe I'm biased or something but what am I supposed to do with that? Ari is convinced I'm scum no matter what and it doesn't matter how bad the reasons are she's right because she's right? I feel like Ari is just too good at town to push me in such a bad faith way?

i get that it's frustrating especially since she won't really go into the read, but, idk. try to talk through her about her reasoning for it.

i don't think being good as town necessitates being 100% right all the time on day 1 especially not on an early read. i think her approach is way more likely to come from town that is legitimately tunneled

[scamper]

i think meg is, like, wildly incorrect but it might be townie

same


i think this read is so bad that it almost certainly comes from incompetence rather than malice.

its just so wildly off base lol

so on another note: can u talk to me a bit about ausuka? do u have reasons to scumread her other than not believing the claim and associations with dats?

[scamper]

maybe later

i want to see what Ausuka does

ok then

i had been kind of intending to dissuade you of the read before moving to other topics but we can instead just do that. i want to talk about any of datisi/donempire/coral/galron, since these are people i am currently not townreading

[scamper]

VOTE: datisi

i wanna try this out for a bit

[scamper]

I think that's fair!

scamper I would like to hear more about how xayah ended up in your strongest town pile, if you don't mind.

back on page 10/11 i started to get the impression she really believes the stuff she's saying in an overconfident townie way and isn't really playing in a way that's attempting to be showy/project towniness

[scamper]

yes i gathered that already, I was hoping for more, because that isn't really very convincing to me. is there anything specific you can point to in her posts that you think feels that way, or is it more of a general vibe?

not really and i'm not really concerned with convincing you atp, if xayah is in danger of being the lim i might go into it further

[scamper]

take care dats

[scamper]

ari uhh maybe take a breather? i completely empathize with where you're coming from but this is way more than is necessary

[scamper]

VOTE: scamper

I think this slot deserves a wagon. They've been knowingly withdrawn from sharing even when asked and overall their progression has felt really awkward for lack of a better term. I get the impression of possibly scum staying under the radar. Either way we need some more information coming from this slot.

i'm going to be honest i ignored you because there were something 100 new posts that came up and responding to other things grabbed my attention

i have laid out who i am townreading and why, if you are having trouble following that idk what to tell you

[scamper]

meg who are your top townreads right now?

[scamper]

also: i have the 4th most posts in the game, i have been explicit about what my reads are, i have presented reasons for what i find suspect

i have no idea what "information" you are expecting from me here

[scamper]

plz tone down the hostility a little because i'd like to actually get a straight answer from meg here

[scamper]

i would recommend that

take care ari <3

[scamper]

meg who are your top townreads right now?

I've previously mentioned Ausuka/Datisi/ Coral and the reasons. Datisi hasn't perpetuated the same kind of inquisitiveness but it appears he has been busy so a little drop there but I'd still consider him a townlean.
Ausuka/Coral have stayed around the same with +town points for ausuka since I think they reacted with the kind of frustration I would have in the situation with ari.
Coral I may reconsider but I don't really feel the need to at this time.
Done has moved up my reads list. I don't agree with them on hardly anything but I can see their thought processes and they do seem to be wanting to move the game in a +town state.

Xayah is a palapable "ugh" read. I don't think a lot of what they are doing is +town but can't find reasonable scum motivations to the parts of their play I dislike. I'd consider them my only null read but probably more volatile than my other reads.





I'm just going to ignore Ari for the time being for the sake of everyone's enjoyment. It's a little too heated for any real progress imo.

okay, was just wondering because i figured we could make your townreads the POE and probably win the game based on how you're going so far

[scamper]

What do you think of the situation with me and ari?

i think ari has been transparently blatantly town since fairly early and has only gotten more so since blowing up in your face. if you're unnable to see that it's either due to a total lack of perspective or purposeful obtuseness

[scamper]

that dopesn't actually answer my question, at all

[scamper]

somehow missed 558 on the preview screen

Why do you think someone being town can be completely transparent? Have you ever played a game where everyone has just townread a specific player day 1 for the same reason?

I've seen it happen sometime for newbies or early claims but those are special cases.

Overall it's incredibly rare.

yes, and no, it isn't

i will grant that some of the ari read is owed to me seeing what she's doing and understanding it and not everyone might get that but if you're unwilling to admit she's town now the only explanations are cluelessness or outright malice

that dopesn't actually answer my question, at all

also 547 and 658 are explicitly not questions

what question are you referring to?

okay let me rephrase: what "information" are you expecting from me, exactly?

[scamper]

VOTE: galron

I overreacted yesterday probably. still don't like Ari's push on me and don't want to rule her out as scum but I'm not sure she has that much reason to take this angle as scum rn when it feels like she would be going to extremes of anger and effort for not a massive amount of benefit? and even though I disagree I guess her blowing up at meg feels sort of towny

i don't really have any wagons I'd be interested in other than this, I think galron slot has been pretty consistently wolfy. I thought I've explained the why of it already but I'd be happy to elaborate

idk if it means anything at all but fwiw im 99.9% certain this is town!ari now

[scamper]

I want to put you (skitter)in a situation where you are forced to give proactive posts.

By definition I can't tell you what to post or it would be reactive.

so let me get this straight:

- you think i've been too reactive and this makes me scum somehow

- you say you want information from me because i've been "withdrawn"

- you hope to get this by wagoning me

- somehow in your mind voting me is going to force me to play in a way that is not reactive

- but also youre not going to actually say what it is youre looking for or what i'm supposedly missing, because then i would be able to actually provide it

did i get all of that right?

(also its scamper, thanks)

[scamper]

VOTE: galron

I overreacted yesterday probably. still don't like Ari's push on me and don't want to rule her out as scum but I'm not sure she has that much reason to take this angle as scum rn when it feels like she would be going to extremes of anger and effort for not a massive amount of benefit? and even though I disagree I guess her blowing up at meg feels sort of towny

i don't really have any wagons I'd be interested in other than this, I think galron slot has been pretty consistently wolfy. I thought I've explained the why of it already but I'd be happy to elaborate

idk if it means anything at all but fwiw im 99.9% certain this is town!ari now

do you think ari is town from this or do you think ausuka is town

that is me talking to ausuka

no offense, but is english not your first language or something because you seem to have extreme difficulty in actually understanding the meaning of posts

[scamper]

I want to put you (skitter)in a situation where you are forced to give proactive posts.

By definition I can't tell you what to post or it would be reactive.

so let me get this straight:

- you think i've been too reactive and this makes me scum somehow

Yes and no. I've said its NAI.

- you say you want information from me because i've been "withdrawn"

A better term is reactive, but yes

- you hope to get this by wagoning me

Yes

- somehow in your mind voting me is going to force me to play in a way that is not reactive

With suitable votes it would.

- but also youre not going to actually say what it is youre looking for or what i'm supposedly missing, because then i would be able to actually provide it

Im not asking for something like a readslist. I want to analyze behavior but its hard to find anything in the current context.

did i get all of that right?

(also its scamper, thanks)

any behavior in response to being voted is by definition reactive, you cannot possibly hope for something to somehow be "proactive" in this manner

for the most part i feel like i've been contributing in my own way and making observations so what you are saying is complete nonsense

also, the game is played by people making posts and other people responding to those posts so the idea that this is somehow scum-indicative is also nonsensical

[scamper]

i hate that the reasoning meg has given on everything is so completely bad and illogical here that i have to consider if this is just scum making terrible nonsense pushes


but i hate even more that i feel like this still might be coming from town

[scamper]

i didn't say that

do you think you've gotten anything from voting me?

[scamper]

My points have been heavily misconstrued so far and I'm not happy about it.

Anyway I'm off for the night. Gnight

no, they haven't been misconstrued, they are just absolutely awful and considering multiple people are saying this i think the issue is p clearly on your end

[scamper]

i would have no problem with it if you had simply said i was scummy and deserved to be pressured. you would be wrong still, but it would make sense


the issue i have is that the things you are saying are illogical, and when i directly contradict the arguments you are making you go "no that isn't what i meant you're misconstruing me" and get evasive instead of going into what specifically you actually find scummy about my posting. it has been basically impossible to get a coherent explanation of your reasoning and you seem resistant to actually doing so. this makes you incredibly difficult to work with in any meaningful fashion and it's a serious problem if you are town

[scamper]

hi dats! i am currently voting you

[scamper]

VOTE: datisi

i wanna try this out for a bit

okay

have you learned anything from this vote by the reactions of others and is there anything you want me to respond to / look at

no, i just wanted to get your attention

i'm not scumreading u per se but i'm not townreading u and was hoping that talking with you would help with actually sorting u

[scamper]

also i checked and only ari & ausuka are voting galron right now

on that note: what about galron's opening posts seemed 'better' and is 24 hours of inactivity on a weekend enough for you to go back to voting him?

[scamper]

i have to go to sleep so i won't be able to talk but i want to reiterate what i said in 417: do you *really* think linking the wiki page for "straw man" shows a thought process and is townie somehow?

[scamper]

bye ari, take care ):

[scamper]

and yes, i think that has the intention of showing you that you're committing a strawman (which imho you were doing to me, at least at some point), but it doesn't draw the lamist attention to themself. it doesn't help fuel the me/you fight since i'm basically already accusing you of strawmanning myself so it's not new info to the table.

it's not a lock by any means but i do like the post

see, this is what i struggle with because i have no idea how you legitimately think them accusing me of strawmanning u is somehow townie, its a completely random interjection thats easy to make and i have a hard time believing this is something u actually think, it just comes across as a complete tmi read

[scamper]

If Done is a wolf I'd be really impressed tbh, he sounds like when he goes on a tangent about stuff like me being scum for the Rolecop thing he genuinely believes what he's saying?

i feel kind of the opposite way tbh, it feels like a lot of what he says is so underhanded like he's just trying to keep options open

The same goes for Datisi but I know Datisi is good at scum whereas I'm not as familiar with Done, so like, yeah idk. I think there's a contingent of players, like {scamper, you, datisi, Aristeia} where I don't think I could catch you on d1 anyway. I think of those players datisi is probably the least likely to be a wolf as I've said. I hope that doesn't come off as total nonsense, it makes sense in my brain. Aristeia is like, I wanted to think she's a wolf but am now not sure because her play doesn't make that much sense and a lot of people who know her say she's basically locktown so...

You and scamper both come across as good and reasonable so I don't exactly have a reason to suspect you guys

It's possible that it's just Galron and Datisi and he has me pocketed, hopefully I'll be able to share more about why I don't really think he's a wolf here soon so other people can evaluate the reasoning? But at the very least I like his vibes in the same way I like you and scamper - yeah all of you are good at the game and probably capable of giving off good vibes to me as scum but if I like all your posts I'm not going to suspect you anyway. If that makes sense.

i don't think galron/datisi is like, at all likely. i'm not even super confident datisi is scum i just find a lot of what he says to be *hmm*, like that meg read. i still probably dont want to elim him day 1 anyway

it is possible we're living in the easy world and the team is just, like, galron/meg (i want back and read phoenix's read list and the bit on meg is a bit Interesting) and the acive players are just kinda fighting with each other over nothing but i am wary of the game not being so simple

[scamper]

ok i read about 1/10th of posts and i scrolled through ari's isp a bit and i wanna say this is very likely town!ari bc i really don't think scum!ari loses her nerves like this

i see galron hasn't done shit since i was last here so how many votes is he on? i wanna vote him but don't wanna lolhammer

pls link me if i need to respond to anything

Can you tell me why she doesnt tilt as scum? Can you link a scum game with a similar circumstance if you can?

also, this is what i mean with don

posts like this feel like theyre trying to undermine the possibility of people clearing ari for tilt when that was a view that was starting to get vocalized, like he doesnt want a potential miselim to slip away

[scamper]

i haven't had that feeling but idk how much i want to get into it right now

[scamper]

Or i will just make a short anectode showing why she can both be genuine in her anger and still be scum.

Back when i was still inexperienced i rolled scum in a newbie game. It was going very well and i was universally townread. I was also doing jackshit to help town, so win win for me. Then someone started tunneling on me for reasons i thought were complete bullshit (didnt recheck it to see if it was, i just remember being pissed about it). And he just would not let go of his tunnel on me. At that time, i was furious not just because he was right on me being scum, but because his argument made no sense and he just got a lucky guess. So we went on a tirade that was very childish of me but was still genuine, and i came out of it being townread even more. The reason was everyone thought my anger was genuine, which it was, so it made me town.

When you overlay my example with her case, it fits somewhat. Shes getting pissed because someone she views as coasting through the day without giving any effort now finds her suspicious. Shes getting angry at being scumread, but moreso by being scumread specifically by meg. I think scum!ari would believe meg doesnt deserve to have the correct read, just like i thought in my game.

I will not lynch aris replacement today, and my read wont carry over to her replacement. I wanted to point this out for anyone tring her for this reason.

you're just wrong here, i'm sorry

you can ague that in a generalized case tilt is not always scum-indicative but in particular the way ari went off is just not scum-indicative, because in between the insults she was making criticism of megs logic that were basically entirely valid

in fact this is pretty lazy shorthand to just go anger=scum

[scamper]

The idea that scum doesn't get frustrated is baffling.
Take NQNM II for example. The same kind of frustrating blowup in a 1v1. Both sides of the argument were scum (on different teams)

I think a noteworthy part of the exchange is that it took a lot of the exchange before ari presented any suspicions about me being scum which feels like something that could be an easy conclusion to make as town in her position.

It's worth consideration imho.

this is not what i am saying

i am saying the way ari acted in particular is very strongly town-indicative

[scamper]

Ok so like

You say I'm scum, with dstisi

Scamper pressures you on why this is

You talk about why the miller claim is suspicious? And now you're apparently deathtunneling me

If I'm wrong about the miller claim being the reasoning, why is it because that's all I have to work with

Pedit: okay except like, if you read my posts I was very much not acting to stagnate discussion, I was pushing phoenix galron slot and I really don't feel like dstisi was either so like I don't get why you're being so rigid about this

Like. At the time you were saying this I am pretty sure Aristeia was directing the discussion to how good she is at catching scum. If you want a culprit to pin that on read the actual posts instead of generalizing and it's there. Except like, we've already discussed this and I voiced my suspicion of this exact thing. And came to the conclusion it could be town Ari doing that because Datisi said it's within her town meta.

Like I don't understand why you're not looking at the actual posts here

I'm sorry, you're right i've only given you the miller reasoning. I'll do a case tomorrow

wonder if you'll actually manage to finish writing this one

[scamper]

Or i will just make a short anectode showing why she can both be genuine in her anger and still be scum.

Back when i was still inexperienced i rolled scum in a newbie game. It was going very well and i was universally townread. I was also doing jackshit to help town, so win win for me. Then someone started tunneling on me for reasons i thought were complete bullshit (didnt recheck it to see if it was, i just remember being pissed about it). And he just would not let go of his tunnel on me. At that time, i was furious not just because he was right on me being scum, but because his argument made no sense and he just got a lucky guess. So we went on a tirade that was very childish of me but was still genuine, and i came out of it being townread even more. The reason was everyone thought my anger was genuine, which it was, so it made me town.

When you overlay my example with her case, it fits somewhat. Shes getting pissed because someone she views as coasting through the day without giving any effort now finds her suspicious. Shes getting angry at being scumread, but moreso by being scumread specifically by meg. I think scum!ari would believe meg doesnt deserve to have the correct read, just like i thought in my game.

I will not lynch aris replacement today, and my read wont carry over to her replacement. I wanted to point this out for anyone tring her for this reason.

you're just wrong here, i'm sorry

you can ague that in a generalized case tilt is not always scum-indicative but in particular the way ari went off is just not scum-indicative, because in between the insults she was making criticism of megs logic that were basically entirely valid

in fact this is pretty lazy shorthand to just go anger=scum

Thats not the point at all.
You really give the impression of going out of your way to misunderstand people. This is at least the third entire player you've done this too.

forgive me if i'm not keen to listen on how i'm "going out of my way to misunderstand people" from someone who has difficulty comprehending the meaning of a single sentence

[scamper]

scamper

is it just me or are you really sassy this game

i'm a little annoyed right now

[scamper]

i dont actually know how to explain this without meta, which i have been trying to avoid

but this is town!ari, i have seen town!ari act in exactly this way on multiple occasions. ari cares too much and she gets worked up about the game and blows up when she thinks someone is playing badly. none of the way she's played this game is how she plays as scum

[scamper]

and yes, i think that has the intention of showing you that you're committing a strawman (which imho you were doing to me, at least at some point), but it doesn't draw the lamist attention to themself. it doesn't help fuel the me/you fight since i'm basically already accusing you of strawmanning myself so it's not new info to the table.

it's not a lock by any means but i do like the post

see, this is what i struggle with because i have no idea how you legitimately think them accusing me of strawmanning u is somehow townie, its a completely random interjection thats easy to make and i have a hard time believing this is something u actually think, it just comes across as a complete tmi read

i mean. it's like. sorry htis is ironic but i feel like you're strawmanning right now. because my point wasn't just "they accused you of strawmnaning" it was the MANNER they did. and tisn not a locktown its like "this is more likely to come from town" idk how else to explain it i feel liek youre overegagerating it again.

i REALLY do not think i'm overexaggerating here it just felt like a bizarre thing to give a townread for

i don't think galron/datisi is like, at all likely. i'm not even super confident datisi is scum i just find a lot of what he says to be *hmm*, like that meg read.

why is that team specifically not likely for you and like, if you think i'm tmi-ing how likely do you think it is i'm scum?

idk anymore

i was like 50/50 but i'm less sure right now

[scamper]

1. ad hominem
2. You do understand that it looks intentional on your part by a large margin right? At least fault in tour court here. I understand some dissonance from perhaps one style of posting, but its occurred so numerously at this point with three different people with three different types of writing and you still seem to be getting arguments wrong.

It's not a good look. Lack of effort, perspective, or good intent feels almost guarenteed here

i have been trying to be pretty understanding. it's not my fault that any time you're criticized you complain and change arguments

[scamper]

i dont actually know how to explain this without meta, which i have been trying to avoid

but this is town!ari, i have seen town!ari act in exactly this way on multiple occasions. ari cares too much and she gets worked up about the game and blows up when she thinks someone is playing badly. none of the way she's played this game is how she plays as scum

And yet you are acting like this should be obvious public knowledge? That's my impression from how you have treated this issue with Done and me.

If you are basing this off of personal experience it seems both unfair and unlikely you would try and assume that same kind of conclusion could be made by another.

this is just disingenuous, although i don't think it's hard to see ari as town even without meta, i was telling you were wrong not that you should be able to identify her as town

[scamper]

1. ad hominem
2. You do understand that it looks intentional on your part by a large margin right? At least fault in tour court here. I understand some dissonance from perhaps one style of posting, but its occurred so numerously at this point with three different people with three different types of writing and you still seem to be getting arguments wrong.

It's not a good look. Lack of effort, perspective, or good intent feels almost guarenteed here

i have been trying to be pretty understanding. it's not my fault that any time you're criticized you complain and change arguments

Its not my fault you critize points im not making.
Or that you seem to think any opinions that you don't share are objectively false.

if theres anyone who is treating opinions they dont share as objectively false, its you

multiple people tell you your off base and your reasoning is flawed and you ignore everuything they say and complain that's not what you meant and get evasive, you treat every criticism as invalid, you dont even respiond to half the things that are said against you. if you're town you're one of the most solipsistic players i have ever had to deal with

[scamper]

What do you think of the situation with me and ari?

i think ari has been transparently blatantly town since fairly early and has only gotten more so since blowing up in your face. if you're unnable to see that it's either due to a total lack of perspective or purposeful obtuseness

at that point, yes

[scamper]

its not solely the emotions, to be clear: at tha point ari went into an exhaustive logical critique of everything that was terrible about your argument for her being scum

you evaded ever actually addressing it and since she repped out you have an excuse to ignore it while arguing that her getting emotional is not town-indicative

this, like most of your play, shows an aversion to providing any actual substance

[scamper]

like have you even put any basic strategic thought into why scum!me decides to tunnel town!ausuka right away from page one?

(1) What if there is a rolecop in the game that can clear Ausuka? What if there's literally any role interaction at all? How does scum me know the setup from the get go?

(2) Why target someone on claim alone? It locks the trajectory without any consideration of play - do you think I expend thread control to force the issue? Where is the motive for locking the trajectory into hardpush if Ausuka town hasn't done anything susp? why not just let someone else take the fall?

(3) Why target with an

associative

right away? If Ausuka/Dats are T/T doesn't this lock a influential vote from flipping my way? If any scum flips outside the pair doesn't this shoot my theory in the foot?

(4) Who the fuck am I even trying to persuade to vote Ausuka? Where is the manipulation happening? If it's some weird invisible manipulation to set up for Day 2, why the fuck would I even spend energy on setting it up when I don't even have a Day One Target? Is Scum!Me supposed to be supremely confident I and my scum partner will both not be able to be limmed therefore I'm focussing all my energy on day two?

(5) why do I bop Ausuka and be ok with being elimmed today ? how does that even make sense for scum me to do?

(6) who am I even manipulating to vote for Ausuka? What is the persuasive angle I am pursuing? How does it work?

(7) If everything above is some garbage wifom plot and I'm doing refuge in Audacity, what's the overarching goal? To escape elim today? I can just escape elim by not doing shit, it's not like this town is doing shit anyway.

(8) Why does any of what I'm doing necessarily have to come from Scum!me? Is it not in the interest of Town!Me to push something in a game state that is static?

:/

Ok first I dont really understand what you mean with the 6 days thing. The game hasn't even lasted 6 days.

For that matter I don't understand why you seem so caught up in the fact I scumread you. You seem frustrated because you don't think my reasonings are valid but I disagree. Disagreemwnts are common in mafia. You should know this. It feels like a weird thing to blow up over.

Like we are playing a game. You are going to be scumread sometimes. Why are you upset? I don't make heads or tails why you seem upset.

It's baffling.

I'll try to pursue other alleys for the time being and let you cool down but my read on your slot hasn't changed signifigantly.

ari hits you with a barrage of questions here, and rather than actually seeking to justify anything you are saying, you play the card of "whoa calm down you're so frustrated" and change the subject to me to avoid actually answering anything she said

[scamper]

ari isn't here, so i'm going to bring it up again for her: how you you defend your scum case against her from the points she made, you can't just go mad = scum

[scamper]

actually stand up for the arguments you are making for once rather than being evasive

[scamper]

the more i read 529, the more slimy it sounds

[scamper]

actually stand up for the arguments you are making for once rather than being evasive

Address my actual arguments then.

you literally won't make any actual arguments about me an when i asked you ran away

[scamper]

i mean the biggest point against me you've tried to make in the last few pages is i'm "purposefully misconstruing things", which is just flat out untrue, there is really not much more to say to that

[scamper]

what am i even supposed to say to that, exactly?

[scamper]

so your answers are anything can do anything, if town can do something scum can do it as well, no one should ever explain anything, arguing anythign is pointless, ari arguing she wouldn't do something as scum is scummy, and you don't have to answer justifying your read because it won't make "forward progress"

why do you even play tis game if that's the stuff that you believe? lie what i'm getting here is that you seem to think all argumentation and discussion is useless, you clearly don't care to actually understand or consider the perspective of anyone else, you're locked in your own little world where nothing anyone says matters because scum can do it too

you will accuse me of strawmanning you for this but i really do not care

[scamper]

i mean the biggest point against me you've tried to make in the last few pages is i'm "purposefully misconstruing things", which is just flat out untrue, there is really not much more to say to that

There are plenty of people that have vocalized that you have been doing such things. Datisi, done and myself at least.
You still deny it.

If it was a mistake you wouldn't double down and certainly not triple down.

yes, because i am not misconstruing anyone on purpose. why would i ever ADMIT to doing that, that is just insane

[scamper]

You are actively harming the flow of information through the town while being incredibly (and intentionally) vague about your own opinions.

You explicitly ignore things that have been said in objective ways. As if there is room for interpretation. There isn't a lot of the time. You put words in others' mouths.

That is clearly observable from anyone that is not you.

And you question why I scumread you.

i have literally not been vague or harming the flow of information at all, if anyone is doing that here it is you

[scamper]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: meg

[scamper]

if you think it's "clearly ovservable", let's see, because you're being incredibly disingenuous right now

[scamper]

every time i ask you what information i'm supposed to give you dodge the question and accuse me of misrepresenting things

like, the only way to interpret this is you're intentionally being confusing and dense right now because there's no other way. i aim for clarity in communication and all your efforts have been intentionally obfuscatory

[scamper]

hi gamma!

ftr i am treating your slot as more or less confirmed town

[scamper]

UNVOTE:

that vote was a pretty emotional one and i'm not really sure meg is the most likely player to flip scum even if i find them be wildly anti-town

[scamper]

1. Do you think that continuing this conversation will amount to information that will help you win the game?

i think the basis of the game is in communication and shutting it down out of annoyance/frustration is bad play. the entire reason i havve been carrying on with this is because i disagree with your view of the game and also because i need to sort you in order to determine whether you're scum or just frustratingly egotistical with bad reads and bad logic.

2. Is it possible I may have made an error or too promptly attacked an idea without proper consideration?

you have done this constantly, this is what i keep complaining about

3. Are you having a good time continuing this argument, or would you prefer to put your game efforts elsewhere?

i put my efforts where i feel they're necessary and right now you're here and i'm going to keep arguing against the stuff you say because it's just absolutely untrue

i don't like being tunneled, no, but i don't quit doing things in a game because they are difficult or w/e


this is why you give the feeling of evasiveness, you get confronted and whine about how it isn't fun and you're not being treated right and won't accomplish anything rather than actually having a conversation. you did it with ari, you're doing it with me. you can't selectively choose to engage because actually defending your own logic is "unfun".

[scamper]

like...you are literally lying about my play, on repeated occasions, and using that to argue that i am scum. i'm not going to ignore that because it's "unfun".

[scamper]

if you have a problem with conflict i'm really not sure this is the game for you

[scamper]

i went to read white flag holder thinking this is probably not scum~meg and now i'm less sure because they're doing the same disingenuous tunnely bad pushes there

[scamper]

You do realize that most of what you accuse me of is literally describing you fmpov, don't you?

You've made that clear to me and my stance will stay unwavering as yours tends to be.

This only ends in an experience neither of us enjoys.

If you think continuing this argument is more important than your own enjoyment of the game, then continue. I don't agree, so I won't be.

Harp on me all you want about it. It's happened twice this game and I will stick to my guns on my stance. I don't care. If I was anyone else this would've gone down the toxicity spiral by now. That is not only unfun, but that kind of behavior is explicitly against the rules. I'm not going to intentionally take myself down a path that leads to me or another breaking the rules. Call it what you want.

invoking the rules to back out of an argument because you don't want to defend yourself is actually super gross and angleshooty

[scamper]

i keep saying you're being disingenuous and you keep bring up out of game factors to avoid clarification - this isn't fun, this won't accomplish anything, i don't want to break the rules

it's really disgusting, honestly

[scamper]

if you think i'm breaking the rules then take it to a mod, using it against me in-game is OGI and really gross and unethical

[scamper]

but hey, abnger and frustration doesn't mean you're town, right? feels like you're trying really hard to make a show of how upset you are in the hopes it'll get u townread

[scamper]

(for the record, above is not serious. i don't think Meg is significantly likely to flip scum, i just felt like making a point)

i wanna vote Galron at this point but don't wanna E-1

[scamper]

Spoiler:

anytime you want to sit down and actually be rational, i'm here

[scamper]

i think the fact that galron basically claimed and dipped is p scummy but i dont want to, like, cut anyone off by hammering

[scamper]

so...i can probably say a little more about all the stuff regarding the miller claim in a bit

[scamper]

don't get me wrong, i really dislike it but i don't think it's scum-indicative

[scamper]

uh so yeah a game just ended where ausuka was miller and was more or less universally townread through the game, which is why the claim was kind of odd

i was scum in tha game which put me in a awkward position here because i didn't want to spew myself scum in the other game with how i handled the claim or anything, which is why i withheld comment (probably a comment on the dangers of multitabling with player crossover, but the game looked fun and i couldn't resist joining)

sio from that pov i *get* why ari was paranoid of ausuka's claim, that it could be, i dunno, some audacious play as scum but it would still beweird to me to claim miller in a game with a few crossover players, in the hopes they'll townread it ig?

so i'd rather just read ausuka on play and i think from when she was arguing with ari about the claim and getting annoyed at the scumread from ari and calling it a push it was townie

[scamper]

i think he's probably town anyway, assuming galron is mafia

[scamper]

VOTE: Galron

[scamper]

hold on i wanna give my thoughts on the miller stuff before we do

sorry >.>

[scamper]

i townread miller claims bc i've never seen scum claim miller so even if they theoretically could do so, it's more likely they didn't imho

it's a good starting point at least

and i often do come across as pockety towards the players i townread. spoiler alert it is because i AM pocketing them. i do want my townreads to townread me.

i am not a fan of that coral post regarding my possible intentions behind my actions w ausuka, but i'll think about it later i'm tired rn

or never if i/she die tonight

anyway yeah ok that's that

it takes, like, a very specific archetype of player to fakeclaim and i don't think ausuka fits that mold, probably

[scamper]

*to fakeclaim miller

[scamper]

see ausuka, your reads dont suck

[scamper]

i went and did a little research on phoenix overnight

he has two competed scumgames on site:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=81690
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=82442

in both of these he shows a pretty typical newb-scum pattern of play, distancing from his partner but avoiding directly pushing them until it's necessary, making excuses for staying off them

with that in mind, i think its highly likely his partner is in the bottom half of his reads list here

Spoiler:

I think Coral made a fair point in one of her posts that I've been focusing too much on Ausuka. Here's some thoughts after rereading:

Datisi, Donempire, Scamper

I'm purposefully putting these three together. Datisi - trying to generate discussion in his first few posts. I understand the point Xayah made in one of her posts that the questions seem "low-effort" in a sense, but I generally think Town is more likely to want to ask questions of any kind than sit back and watch. I like the point he made about Xayah having backed down too easily once she was questioned on it. It's these points that I think are more likely to come from Town than from scum, not the questions he was asking at the beginning, though I think it's normal to start with basic questions at the beginning of the game before you have enough information to make up your mind and take a stance. Not really a fan of the "vibe TR" on Meg, but I've never been a big fan of vibe TRs in general. As for Scamper, his posts seem "solvey" as well and I like the fact that he hasn't tunnel-visioned on anybody, which strikes me as a Town thing to do, cause I believe there was enough information for him to focus on one person, but instead he chose to engage in discussions regarding different players, which shows to me he's trying to solve the game from different angles, which is a good thing. I don't think it's hard to understand Datisi's or Scamper's reasons for disagreeing with Don's idea to push Datisi to E-1. I kinda see Don's point but I think suggesting such a move is too obvious to do as scum, if that makes sense? Like, putting so much pressure on yourself by suggesting such a thing is a suboptimal move from a scum POV, IMO. Nothing else in particular in her ISO stands out to me as AI, so my TR on Don is solely based on that reasoning for now, take that as you will.

Datisi, Donempire, Scamper - Townlean

Ausuka

I don't think much at all of her initial reaction to allegedly have rolled Miller. I didn't agree with her vote on Xayah initially, but in retrospect this may've been due to a misinterpretation on my part cause I didn't get that Xayah was outright SRing Ausuka for her reaction in her first few posts and Xayah later stated herself that that was the case. I still disagree with the reasoning behind the TR on Meg, but I don't think it's AI by itself. I obviously disagree with her vote on me, because, well, because it's me, but I do understand the reasoning behind that one. And for the record, yes, I haven't played the game in a long while, as Ausuka guessed in one of her posts.

Ausuka - null

Aristeia

I had problems with one of her first posts in which she suggested "yeeting" Ausuka, but she explained herself later and it appears it once again comes down to a misinterpretation on my part (By now you probably have guessed that I tend to interpret post content literally and if something is implied but not explicitly stated it may go over my head. That's a me-problem I need to fix, I suppose). I think her pointing out that she has a different "mental model in [her] head about how she would claim Miller if she were a Miller" is fair and didn't think much of it. Otherwise, I don't think I have enough information to make up my mind.

Aristeia - null

Meg

I just don't have much to work with here. @Meg: Do you have any thoughts you want to share about the current state of the game? Any reads, etc.?

Meg - null

Coral

I see her point for not wanting to put Don at E-1 but I do think it's also an easy excuse for not wanting to take a stance, as Don implied. I really don't like the reasoning behind the 180 on Aristeia. The tone in her posts seems genuine, though, and I don't thing she's faking it. Still, I tend to read people by their actions more than by their tone, so:

Coral - scumlean

Xayah

I didn't think much of the accusation against Ausuka early in the game, but given that Xayah later admitted herself that she SR-ed Ausuka for that and that she stands by it, it rubs me the wrong way. I'm tempted to believe that Xayah doubling down on her SR on Ausuka based on Ausuka's first posts is town-indicative because it could be easier from a scum!Xayah POV to just say that it wasn't a push. Though as I mentioned in a previous post, that begs the question if it wasn't meant to be a push, why bother in the first place? So Xayah backing down here wouldn't raise less questions that her doubling down on her Ausuka SR, IMO, so I still think scum!Xayah is a definite possibility. I also echo what Scamper said in 130. The vote on Meg is strange as well.

Xayah - scumlean

I think I'm more confident in my Xayah scumlean as of now.

VOTE: Xayah

i kind of dont think its xayah because i dont think phoenix goes for a partner as a first option

i dont think its datisi or ausuka because i dont think they push their partner like that very early in the game (i especially think the way ausuka handled phoe is clearing)

ari-slot i think is just always town

i could see it being meg, except i sort of think theyre just town on play

i think coral seems the most likely and makes the most sense

[scamper]

Coral

I see her point for not wanting to put Don at E-1 but I do think it's also an easy excuse for not wanting to take a stance, as Don implied. I really don't like the reasoning behind the 180 on Aristeia. The tone in her posts seems genuine, though, and I don't thing she's faking it. Still, I tend to read people by their actions more than by their tone, so:

this seems like a partner read and is consistent with how he talks about partners in other games. "i dont like this or this, but theres some little thing i liked, so ill vote in this other spot for now"

[scamper]

Phoenix's persistence is slightly towny, I think. As scum he would probably recognize that he isn't really getting townread for his approach and may change tactics. I do agree that he sounds a little stiff, but that may just be a personality or writing style trait.

My instinct was like, coral is unlikely to do this to a partner? Because it just seems like such an obvious partner read and although I don't actually know who coral is I definitely get the vibes she is a deeply competent player

the thing is i think a competent player is more likely to do that tbh

in a 9p especially, losing a partner day 1 can lead to a mech loss from power roles and even if that doesnt happen a bunch of people will be cleared off the fliped scum. a competent seeing their teammate getting pressure early is more likely to play boldly and try to defuse the wagon with some defense


i also think independent of that the read still doesnt make much sense


i also got the feeling day 1 thsi was a game where town scream at each other and try to tear each others heads off for 30 pages (sorry about that) and then we decided to lim the scum who arent doing muh. that was galron and i feel like coral fits that as well, she just hasnt had much actual presence

[scamper]

see ausuka, your reads dont suck

You're just saying this to mitigate the massive wave of paranoia I am going to direct towards you

no i just felt bad cuz you were down on yourself after that game and i didnt think you were terrible, there was a lot of stuff outside your control and its not good to beat yourself up too much after a loss. and you really did have a good read on phoenix right away here!

paranoia away tho! i dont particularly think i should be cleared off anything i did toward phoenix/galron day 1, there are a lot of people who are significantly townier than me

i do have a reason im town but im not sure how convincing it will be, hopefully it doesnt matter

[scamper]

Assume Scum!scamper for this.

Scamper would want to avoid a galron lim. (Wagon wasnt far but existed)
These posts would imply trying to do one of three things.
1. Trying to discredit Don.
2. Trying to apply momentum to a potential don wagon against galron.
3. Trying to set up don for a future miselim.
This would imply scamper thought don was mislimmable. Why then would they kill don? Doesn't make much sense.

Ergo scamper is probably town.

tbh i think youre way ahead of yourself here

even if scum!me thinks i can mislim don on day 1 i would realize hes very likely cleared off galron pushing him and he wouldnt be limmable in the future, plus id be needing to pr hunt rather than kill based on reads

i am town but i dont think this is, like, a good reason to tr me

[scamper]

i think the points against xayah are fair-ish im just not sure phoenix makes her his first real push

and i want to note that coral kind of similarly had phoe/galron in poe-ish position but always higher than other people

but maybe i am reading too much into things. i'll see what xayah says.

[scamper]

Phoenix's persistence is slightly towny, I think. As scum he would probably recognize that he isn't really getting townread for his approach and may change tactics. I do agree that he sounds a little stiff, but that may just be a personality or writing style trait.

Do you think such a change would happen when we're only 100 posts in? The game is quite short right now so quickly changing your styles seems...unneeded. I think Phoenix is

fine

(now do they deserve the amount of TR's they have that's another topic) but I disagree with this being a reason to TR them

this is actually a bit of an odd post

and 107 is as well

[scamper]

tbf i had kind of gotten paranoid that was u setting up a target with preflips but maybe ur just that good

[scamper]

If I were good then I wouldn't have gotten you off track with my post about Don

I was hoping we could wagon Xayah together after 130, but alas

mmm, i just wasnt sure it was actually scummy versus, like, delusional overconfidence

i think the points against xayah are fair-ish im just not sure phoenix makes her his first real push

and i want to note that coral kind of similarly had phoe/galron in poe-ish position but always higher than other people

but maybe i am reading too much into things. i'll see what xayah says.

I see where you're coming from here and this is a point in her favour - tbh overnight I was thinking it was more likely you than Xayah because of that - but also like... I think scum voting each other particularly early game is just not that rare actually and although Phoenix seems like uh, quite a by the book player as you say I'm just not sure it's wise to rule it out

fair enuf! yeah i'm not sure especially that it's clearing anymore, either, and rereading xayah i dont have good reason to townread her individually

Xayah is my thought for partner atm. I feel like the 180 last minute feels like scum trying to catch the bus last minute.
The done kill is interesting, haven't considered the ramifications yet.

Is it overthinking to call this towny? I mean I'm not sure scum meg plays exactly this way. Like, definitely I can see them townreading scamper, but it feels like they're placing more of an emphasis on towncasing scamper vs scumcasimg xayah, whereas I feel like it's more intuitive for scum to do it in reverse. Does that make sense?

im not sure that in and of itself makes sense necessarily, i think when youre down to being the last scum standing its always easier to clear people than make scumcases, however i still believe meg generally is just townie and their reads and commitment to them are real even if i found them, uh, difficult on day 1

I felt like coral had a decent amount of presence, although I guess it's possible she was more so interacting with me?

Idk I don't know if I'm married to the argument I was making there I just don't feel like it's coral >.>
I guess like... I can buy that scum would townread phoenix there but I feel like coral would do something more like xayah, where they go for the hard townread, than do a waffly looking townlean which is like Classic Partner Read?

yea, this is also a good point, i hadnt really looked at xayahs posts more closely

[scamper]

Hmm I would like to ask what stuff you felt was out of my control and what I should have done better because I'm interested in improving my game if I can but have no idea how to go about like evaluating what I did wrong and should do better?? But that's probably a topic for like... Outside this game thread

yeaa i woulda msged u about it but didnt want to have any outside contact that might potentially compromise this one, after this game is over i will

[scamper]

VOTE: datisi

i wanna try this out for a bit

okay

have you learned anything from this vote by the reactions of others and is there anything you want me to respond to / look at

no, i just wanted to get your attention

i'm not scumreading u per se but i'm not townreading u and was hoping that talking with you would help with actually sorting u

i'm rereading the game around this part and i get the vibe this is town!scamper. something feels counterintuitive to me about attacking me while both them and me are saying that ari is town for the meltdown and that ari/ausuka is t/t. bot not actually attacking me but ~pushing to sort me~. and then a few posts later (612) saying that they don't think me/galron makes and sense and that they don't even wanna kill me day 1.

this kind of "being all over the place" feels more likely to come from a town mindset rather than a scum one, i feel. because scum is obviously aware of who is town who is scum, and their informedness acts like a brake for making posts that jump all over the place like this, and lowkey act as shooting yourself in the foot on one front. and you could say "but scamper good at scum" yes i know. it still feels unlikely to do because this is not something that classically gets you towncred, but it does limit your future pushes. so.

lmk if i need to explain this better

this is basically close to my argument as to why im town, i think my play in my scumgame was significantly more "in control" in terms of what i did and how i reacted to things

[scamper]

Datisi do you bus often?

yes

[scamper]

Datisi do you bus often?

yes

why did you say i'm not aligned with galron then?

i don't think you bus *in the way you did*, you didn't need to be the first call out phoenix right away, you didn't need to bring up galron doing nothing when most of the thread was ignoring him, you were ahead of the curve where i still think as scum you would wait for someone else to be pushing him first before following him, i dont think phoenix responded to you the way he would to a partner

[scamper]

Coral all throughout the game has been very analytical, nuanced, and her thoughts feel really grounded within the game. It's evident that they are trying to solve the game beyond just a surface level to try and appear townie.

i think shes going to post analytically regardless of alignment...

[scamper]

Coral all throughout the game has been very analytical, nuanced, and her thoughts feel really grounded within the game. It's evident that they are trying to solve the game beyond just a surface level to try and appear townie.

I'm remembering why this site made such townsided setups

lol

[scamper]

From my perspective, it looks like you're openly just having fun messing around as caught scum, because I don't think anything you're saying here makes sense from a town mindset.

thats not really the impression i get at all, and i dont think shed mess around as scum

[scamper]

i also think "I don't mind dying" is a pretty common and obvious approach for scum to take when they're in a pretty much impossible position

off the top of my head it's what wallflower did in pyp and i think hem did something similar

i think good scum players, like xayah is, are more unlikely to do that bc i think they know that town very very often calls that bluff.

like i'd be expecting someone with xayah's scum caliber to come into this thread and actively be shaking up the gamestate instead of solidifying it the way she's doing.

i kind of think she acts like that no matter what in her position tbh, about the only way she doesnt get flipped here is if enough people decide she looks like shes really willing to die and second-guess onto someone else. (im also a little paranoid of her townreading me so strongly)

[scamper]

From my perspective, it looks like you're openly just having fun messing around as caught scum, because I don't think anything you're saying here makes sense from a town mindset.

thats not really the impression i get at all, and i dont think shed mess around as scum

Coral all throughout the game has been very analytical, nuanced, and her thoughts feel really grounded within the game. It's evident that they are trying to solve the game beyond just a surface level to try and appear townie.

i think shes going to post analytically regardless of alignment...

I mean probably but it seems like a towny thought for meg to have? idk

yeah im not particularly sussing meg, i think their play is more aloof as scum

[scamper]

this is basically close to my argument as to why im town, i think my play in my scumgame was significantly more "in control" in terms of what i did and how i reacted to things

ever so slightly raising an eyebrow since you seem aware of that, but alright

i mean being aware of it is one thing, but i dont really think i try to duplicate that because lashing out at people has a significant chance of backfiring

@scamper, any reason you're not voting coral rn?

im not really confident its coral, i dont know what i want to do with my vote yet

[scamper]

im okay with voting xayah here, i dont feel like voting meg, coral is my second option. i thought about it and thats where im at.

[scamper]

i don't think we *need* people to claim today if people are set on a particular vote. we can claim day 3 if we dont end the game today, doing it now lets scum know who exactly they need to nk

[scamper]

VOTE: xayah

[scamper]

hi

so on pondering i *think* megs role is townie, because otherwise the complex cop would only be able to get results on ausuka and maybe the other mafia member which seems not great for a 9p

i also still think they are townie on play

VOTE: Coral

[scamper]

I know you talked about this a bit yesterday but I'd be interested to hear your current thoughts about Coral?

i think shes the most likely mafia, by far. ill get into it in a little bit.

[scamper]

okay, busy day, have time to actually post now, going to get to things in a bit

[scamper]

so on pondering i *think* megs role is townie, because otherwise the complex cop would only be able to get results on ausuka and maybe the other mafia member which seems not great for a 9p

Can you explain your thought process here a little bit more? I don't quite follow you.

don flipped complex cop, which only gets results on non-vanilla roles. so far the only other flipped roles are VTs and a mafia goon. the cop needs to be able to get results on someone. so far the only claimed roles that can do that are ausuka and meg.

i think ausuka is probably town because scum-ausuka likely doesnt know theres a cop in the setup to fakeclaim miller against (unless shes informed but thats the mother of all tinfpil theories and shes never scum with phoenix anyway)

if meg is mafia: the only 2 roles in the setup the invest can get a result on are a false positive and one of the mafia. that feels a bit weak for an investigative given their results are rarely ever going to be useful. i think it makes sense if meg is the backup to a mafia neighborizer

of course the claim is probably real regardless of alignment but people in my last game know role does not indicate alignment

i just think town is weak otherwise

maybe this changes if ausuka is a miller neighborizer but idk

i still think in general meg doesnt get up in arms/1v1 me like that day 1 as scum

[scamper]

Oh I knew that I was just asking like, your reasoning and stuff

Coral

I see her point for not wanting to put Don at E-1 but I do think it's also an easy excuse for not wanting to take a stance, as Don implied. I really don't like the reasoning behind the 180 on Aristeia. The tone in her posts seems genuine, though, and I don't thing she's faking it. Still, I tend to read people by their actions more than by their tone, so:

again, i think this is a >rand partnery thing for a newbscum to say and fits precisely with the pattern of how phoenix played in his other gamess. i wanna reiterate this because i think its important and newbie scum are less good at hiding their associations than more experienced players

Phoenix's persistence is slightly towny, I think. As scum he would probably recognize that he isn't really getting townread for his approach and may change tactics. I do agree that he sounds a little stiff, but that may just be a personality or writing style trait.

Phoenix's persistence is slightly towny, I think. As scum he would probably recognize that he isn't really getting townread for his approach and may change tactics. I do agree that he sounds a little stiff, but that may just be a personality or writing style trait.

Do you think such a change would happen when we're only 100 posts in? The game is quite short right now so quickly changing your styles seems...unneeded. I think Phoenix is

fine

(now do they deserve the amount of TR's they have that's another topic) but I disagree with this being a reason to TR them

He's gotten more scumreads than townreads, no? I only see scamper having mentioned a townread. He got scum leanings from Meg, Ausuka, and Datisi, and was questioned by Don in a way that seemed to indicate suspicion.

And yes, I think that it feels like if he is scum then he is making the choice to double down on his approach. It's possible he's decided that he talked his way into where he is and he can talk his way out of it, but to me the barreling forward without regard for how he is perceived seems like it comes from someone who isn't self-conscious. It's easy and often tempting to step back and simply not post as much as scum. It's not a full playstyle change that I'm expecting.

again: this read on phoenix really doesn make sense at all. the idea that scum have perfect awareness and turn on a dime to change it is ridiculous.

it also over-emphasizes how scumread phoenix was at the time, and i think scum are more likely to be self-conscious about how the thread perceives them/their partners, typically this manifests in compulsive bussing but an experienced scum player might attempt deflection/damage control and thats what this looks like to me

Phoenix's persistence is slightly towny, I think. As scum he would probably recognize that he isn't really getting townread for his approach and may change tactics. I do agree that he sounds a little stiff, but that may just be a personality or writing style trait.

persistence in doing what, exactly?

He's moving things forward but only along one path. If he were trying to look towny by having a lot of content, I'd expect him to be tackling different subjects and angles. His continued arguing what is basically the same point with Ausuka isn't really doing anything to make him look better on a surface level. To me it comes across as a tunneled townie.

this also really makes no sense. i called it out at the time. phoenix wasnt acting tunneled and coral is going out of her way to make excuses for him

This feels like, entirely based on self projection based meta on "I would expect X to do Y but because they're doing Z they're town." If you're always in this kind of mindset it doesn't help you catch mafia it helps people know how to play around you and I can't tell if this kind of thinking is good or not.

We're 8 pages into the game. With competent players (and I think everyone here is at least a step or two above competent), figuring out how to catch people as scum at this point in the game is kind of a crapshoot. My early reads may not stick around forever, but we have to start somewhere. I would be excited to hear if you have a better method of catching scum than looking at the actions people take and trying to predict if they are more likely to be taken as scum or as town!

I find that my methods are the most fun for me, and they work well enough for me to believe in them

What's wrong with hedge?

It's not that there's anything inherently wrong, but the manner in which you did it feels awkward. In one sentence you express 3 different opinions on Phoenix:

"I think Phoenix is fine (now do they deserve the amount of TR's they have that's another topic) but I disagree with this being a reason to TR them"

. It feels like you are defending Phoenix, while also scrutinizing reasons for TRing them, while also misreading the gamestate as overly townreading them, while also vaguely criticizing all of those TRs (which don't exist) without going into why.

In the second post:

Hm, alright I'm willing to go along with this read for now. I didn't really catch on how much Pho was becoming a common wolfread. But they're not really in my "I would vote today" tier anyway."

, you accept my townread, accept that they are being scumread more than you realized, and then for some reason feel the need to emphasize that you don't actually want to vote them?

It feels over-explained, I guess. Like you feel some need to make sure you have the right thoughts put out there on this slot even if they don't quite fit into the context of what's being discussed.

My instinctive reaction is actually that it feels partnered, but I'm not really sure if I buy into that, so for now I'll just stick with thinking that it feels off.

noting the language here - she is suggesting phoenix could maybe be mafia but is pushing xayah as her primary target instead, this is the sort of thing scum do to tie town players to their partner in case that player goes down. admittedly those posts were weird but i sort of expect scum to zone in on townies saying weird things in order to push them for elimination. (i let myswelf get talked into it but tbh i didnt want meg to get wagoned which is why i voted xayah)

galron kinda feels better than he did in that meme exploder game

VOTE: coral

coral!! what are your current thoughts on the gamestate, apart from the xayah read?

datisi!!

My current thought is that most people feel pretty towny, actually. I'm surprised that scamper says he has a lot of scumreads (and im really not sure what to think of him yet but i think i want to leave him alone for now). I think that even Xayah and Don's more recent posts feel at least a little townier. All that really means is that the game is probably not trivially easy. Looking over everyone else, though, I still am leaning towards Xayah and/or Don being scum. Probably my second tier would be Ari/scamper...

and maybe Galron?

maybe you? I don't know, the middle section of my reads has been moving around a lot. I'm most confident in Ausuka town. I agree with whoever mentioned a vibe townread on Meg, but that's a bit weak due to the low amount of posts.

Why are you in particular looking for people who are making easy pushes? Is that something you always do, or is it specific to this game? The way you called it out made it sound like it's something you came into this game with the idea of doing.

this is maybe a little bit of a me-read but saying "most people feel pretty towny" is more common from scum because from an informed perspective u tend to see the towniness in everyone where townies get oaranoid and latch onto small things and lash out. this is kinda like my last game where people were paranoid of alexcellent but to me he was just so tpownie he was basically impossible to case

notably at that point galron hadnt really dont anything, coral slots him in her poe but its behinf 4 other names, and i know all of those are town. i dont really think at that point he merited being put there

its also a really dissonant statement to make - she thinks most people are towny but she has a tier of suspects that is 6 deep? like, i acknowledge that in general when the game seems hard on day 1 it leads to paranoid thoughts but if so many people seem towny shouldnt she have fewer suspects? it would just be "everyone is towny except xyz"

this is gettign a bit long so ill do the rest in the next ost

[scamper]

when someone is correctly scumreading me, the thing i love to do is just continuously ask them what feels off and what do they not like about it and etc etc, and when they give a response continue arguing why they're Wrong, Actually

I didn't continue arguing why he was Wrong, Actually, though, so how does it fit? It was intentional though, I wanted to see how he would respond to that tone. I liked the response, because he didn't feel a need to overjustify himself and directly respond to every question I asked in order to win the argument. The way that he simply restated his point with a little more clarity felt like a response from town who is still trying to sort things out

this is an aside from the phoenix stuff but i want to make an aside: when coral was suspected she played the part of the calm and reasonable "oh why do you suspect me? we'll that's fair" in response. this might be a personality trait but i think this type of approach is scummy in nature because its a lot easier to remain calm and rational when you *know* the person pushing you is town and has good reasons you can try to talk them out of. townies get emotional, they get paranoid, they get po'ed, theyre way more likely to get suspicious of the people voting them but i dont get that same sense of paranoia from coral. i knowthis personally because i react a *lot* more rationlly to pressure as scum

[scamper]

Hi! Checking in to say that I won't be around much at all tomorrow. I don't think I have any new opinions right now. I guess the only thing would be that I'm more and more thinking that it could just be Galron, as nearly everyone else seems to be achieving some level of towntelling.

My guess would be that it's one of Galron or Xayah but not both, alongside... Don or Datisi? I haven't thought about that too much but it feels reasonable

these posts edge toward galron being scum without directly pushing him, right as datisi is moving toward pressuring galron and the thread is starting to turn against him. it looks like your classic progression toward being willing to bus. 765 and 909 follow up on that.

but it feels very inorganic? the idea that he suddenly leapfrogged ahead of don/xayah in her eads and that *everyone* else is towntelling isnt really expanded upon, she just says it. its like she realized that was the only wagon likely to go through and had to position herself for it

[scamper]

scamper, what do you think about massclaiming?

im all for it now

[scamper]

The claims thing is like... Again I will wait for massclaim, I think until then we can't really comment on them. Although I will say I don't think miller really makes complex cop any more useful. It's the kind of thing that looks like a cool interaction until you think about it and realise it's not actually interesting at all

I do agree that my instinct is that Meg would be more reluctant to fight with scamper like that as scum but I guess that could be wrong

i agree with what you are saying about complex cop/miller interaction as well, was kind of what i was trying to say

[scamper]

scamper, I too would like to know what you think about a massclaim.

I'd also like to hear what your thoughts are currently on Datisi, if you don't mind.

i think he's probably town and don't see him pushing phoenix that way on day 1 if they're teamed

[scamper]

I'm getting the impression scum is currently probing players trying to figure their plan to moving forward.

is that supposed to tell u anything, because i think thats how scum almost always plays with 1 left...

[scamper]

Can you go into that a little more? I think if we can be confident on Datisi being town then this game becomes much easier.

i dont want to overexaggerate my confidence level, but i think its just you and dont find anyone else to be a likely partner. if you flipped town i would re-evaluate everyone. i can go into more depth in a bit tho

[scamper]

Do you think questioning me about whether mindmelding is a good towntell is going to help solve my alignment?

I don't think it's a good towntell, and in case it's not, your TR-ing Meg may just be an early attempt at pocketing as far as I'm concerned.

this first sentence doesn't really follow into the second i think

like, it seems to try to imply that ausuka is automatically scum for making a "bad towntell" despite not really thinking about whether ausuka is a townie that's just wrong. yes i know he said "may" there, it gives off a different vibe.

phoenix kinda feels like he's trying to be ~logically correct and consistent~ without having the actual fire behind his posting

does that make sense? i hope that makes sense

scamper, what do you think

my way too early solve is 2 in {phoenix, done, coral}

he calls out phoenix very early and keeps his rvs vote on him and i kinda think scum are less likely to put immediate pressure on a partner like this when that momentum could spiral into an elim

[scamper]

phoenix kinda feels like he's trying to be ~logically correct and consistent~ without having the
my way too early solve is 2 in {phoenix, done, coral}

What's Coral doing in there?

this is kindof un-partnery, though hm

idk that i wanna bet the game on a single post but

[scamper]

un-partnery for coral, i mean

unless a scum player is a *really* bad noob they dont ask a question like that when someone has their partner in a correct poe and phoenix is a more capable player than that

[scamper]

oh, pho scumleans both coral and xayah too, that's beautiful

Datisi - trying to generate discussion in his first few posts. I understand the point Xayah made in one of her posts that the questions seem "low-effort" in a sense, but I generally think Town is more likely to want to ask questions of any kind than sit back and watch. I like the point he made about Xayah having backed down too easily once she was questioned on it. It's these points that I think are more likely to come from Town than from scum, not the questions he was asking at the beginning, though I think it's normal to start with basic questions at the beginning of the game before you have enough information to make up your mind and take a stance.

i feel like this goes back and forth on whether my early questions are townie or not, in a way that is meant to seem smart and nuanced but is actually not saying much at all.

I kinda see Don's point but I think suggesting such a move is too obvious to do as scum, if that makes sense? Like, putting so much pressure on yourself by suggesting such a thing is a suboptimal move from a scum POV, IMO.

i don't think this is exactly valid - there is a good subset of players, myself included, that hate when a lot of the game isn't voting and the day stagnates, because that usually lets scum get away with doing nothing. so i think there is also a decent subset of players that would've agreed to don's idea of putting people at y-1 early for the content or pressure or whatever. and the possibility of getting a yeet this early would've been great for scum, which is why i see it as a possible scum strategy.

I see her point for not wanting to put Don at E-1 but I do think it's also an easy excuse for not wanting to take a stance, as Don implied.

i feel like coral very much did take a stance and called done scummy? she just didn't vote?

Though as I mentioned in a previous post, that begs the question if it wasn't meant to be a push, why bother in the first place?

expressing scumreads on people without immediately pushing them is a thing? xayah should probably elaborate first if she wants, but i feel like i see reason behind her actions you talk about here

there is further questioning of phoenix here. im not sure its strongly ai but him continuining to pick at scum rather than back down is a decent look

[scamper]

galron kinda feels better than he did in that meme exploder game

VOTE: coral

coral!! what are your current thoughts on the gamestate, apart from the xayah read?

if theres a point of concern, its that i feel he backed off on the read a little too quickly when galron subbed in, esp because galrons posts were kind of bad

sometimes when scum are bussing but dont really want to, they will look for a backdoor, a reason to get away from the read and push somewhere else. its something im very self-conscious about and its pretty observable in other people too, you start bussing because you assume your partner might go down, but if people start making excuses for them its very tempting to back away so as to not have to bus

so, like, i *could* see this post coming from a phoenix partner, but xayah said something very similar and was town so its not like this is a smoking gun

[scamper]

i'm not really sold on ari being wolf, but i could wagon galron, yes

ok i read about 1/10th of posts and i scrolled through ari's isp a bit and i wanna say this is very likely town!ari bc i really don't think scum!ari loses her nerves like this

i see galron hasn't done shit since i was last here so how many votes is he on? i wanna vote him but don't wanna lolhammer

pls link me if i need to respond to anything

my attention has been acquired

unfortunately i am not able to properly catch up until like 12 hours from now, so

the opening posts were better than his posts in the exploder game enchant modded recently. but i am not so impressed by him that i wanna let him skate by on d1 without content. and i remember thinking his last post or two were kinda uninspiring but idk

and yes, i think that has the intention of showing you that you're committing a strawman (which imho you were doing to me, at least at some point), but it doesn't draw the lamist attention to themself. it doesn't help fuel the me/you fight since i'm basically already accusing you of strawmanning myself so it's not new info to the table.

it's not a lock by any means but i do like the post

It was something like you don't see the thing I do, at least the way I'm seeing it. How does that make me maf?

yeah, this post felt really boring to me and like a very uninspiring response

also, since i think ausuka and ari are both town, i think it's worth it getting our attention to lower impact slots than letting them storm up the thread even more

this isnt as strong as i remember it being. i thought datisi was one of the ones agitating for wagoning galron but the way the second post was written feels like he was adding to pre-existing momentum, not starting up his push anew. i would need to read for context to fully check this.

[scamper]

its something im very self-conscious about

This is why I had you as town after the flip, so I guess it's good to see you mention it here. You backed off Galron in a pretty bad-optics way that I thought you would be too self-conscious to do as scum.

Now the question is if you would be too self-conscious to mention how you would be too self-conscious to do that as scum, in a game where you did in fact do that

the only time i recall backing off galron was when i said i thought he didnt fit with many possible teammates besides u, and tbh i would make an excuse like that as scum. i dont particularly think my interactions with the slot are clearing.

[scamper]

i had a point that phoe townreading datisi is less likely to be partner-indicative but thats kind of wifomy atp and on a reread his responses to dats arent hard unaligning

so, no, i dont hard townread dats and some of his content day 1 is still weird to me

[scamper]

The way you moved onto Datisi and Meg while not exactly pushing them as scum felt like actions that look bad but don't actually really accomplish anything in terms of securing an elim on anybody besides Galron.

well, yes, i think those are actions i wouldnt take as scum because theyre un-tactical, generally, you dont even need to think about the optics bit of it, its just whether i was playing toward a scum wincon or not

[scamper]

scamper, what do you think about massclaiming?

im all for it now

the main reason why i was asking that is because it seemed weird to me that you're slotting meg as town on the basis of them not being vt (and their interactions with the flipped complex cop), when most of the game was still unclaimed

well, i can always re-evaluate based on new information but i have to form thoughts based on the info we have rather than speculating about unouted power roles

[scamper]

oh yeah, popcorn to scamper if we're still doing that

i'm just vt

[scamper]

galron kinda feels better than he did in that meme exploder game

VOTE: coral

coral!! what are your current thoughts on the gamestate, apart from the xayah read?

if theres a point of concern, its that i feel he backed off on the read a little too quickly when galron subbed in, esp because galrons posts were kind of bad

sometimes when scum are bussing but dont really want to, they will look for a backdoor, a reason to get away from the read and push somewhere else. its something im very self-conscious about and its pretty observable in other people too, you start bussing because you assume your partner might go down, but if people start making excuses for them its very tempting to back away so as to not have to bus

so, like, i *could* see this post coming from a phoenix partner, but xayah said something very similar and was town so its not like this is a smoking gun

how familiar are you with my game? not trying to althunt; i'm assuming you are familiar since you very quickly answered "yes" to "does datisi do the bus", but if that's so then are you familiar with how self-conscious i am as scum too?

i mean i've played with u before, obviously

[scamper]

oh yeah, popcorn to scamper if we're still doing that

i'm just vt

coral is the last unclaimed, i think? unless ausuka or meg have hidden role info to reveal. but i still want coral to go first.

[scamper]

Also I just realised we have two and a half days wild

Do we want to speed this up or

i forgot that the deadlines accelerate with fewer players tbh

my priorities have been with more time-intensive things, sorry

[scamper]

The claims are.... interesting.

Datisi's makes some sense to me since I found their push on me day 2 odd which nakes more sense with a neopolitan check.

Ausuka is literal confirmed town now. Scum!scamper would mean there were 2 VTs, which is kind of ridiculous if scum has anything less than omniscience as their role.

That leaves Coral/Datisi suspect pool, which I was at anyway. I think after the claims I lean more towards Coral.

I've been very torn between the two going into today.

what was it u were waiting until after claims to say?

[scamper]

i think its actually highly super unlikely that all of don/dats/corals roles can exist in the same game and be town

if you take for granted that they all are, you could potentially have 3 players mechanically cleared on day 2 of a micro

that seems like it would be incredibly unbalanced

[scamper]

But I don't want to eliminate Coral?

If we really wanted to I guess I could paraphrase the hood. I don't think it will be massively helpful but.

i think u and dats are very badly pocketed

[scamper]

if im wrong im wrong and o well but i dont see how its possible u could have 3 clear generating roles including a free hidden ic on day 1

[scamper]

I really don't think it's Coral here?

My reasoning is that she immediately claimed in her PT on day 1 and committing hard to clearing me like that would be too much of a big brained gambit for me to accept I think, I don't think scum chooses to play around me like that. In particular I think being informed that the miller is town makes some sense, whereas scum having information about a miller is just super super weird given miller always claims

if ur not getting mled anyway it makes no difference + makse her role look more "useful"

and again, it makes literally no sense that a setup tha could potentially have 3 clears on day 2 in a micro passes review...

[scamper]

day 2 makes more sense at least but having a hood dynamic like that is really annoying

[scamper]

and u have to ask yourself why scum needs a *backup neigborizer* in a micro, thats such a profoundly useless role

it does provide a safe claim against th neap i guess (while the goon is immune to the complex cop) but that still seems really incredibly weak in contrast to everything else in the setup

[scamper]

i think its actually highly super unlikely that all of don/dats/corals roles can exist in the same game and be town

if you take for granted that they all are, you could potentially have 3 players mechanically cleared on day 2 of a micro

that seems like it would be incredibly unbalanced

i've been thinking about this the last few days - i think you're not thinking about it the way games actually are balanced. like, theoretically, yes, 3 confirmed townies could be present on day 2. (and this is assuming that town doesn't kill scum d1 and doesn't think one of them is fakeclaiming a clear on a partner.)

but it's also possible that there is only one confirmed townie on day 2, like it happened here. my role ended up not giving a clear, don got shot (he wasn't guaranteed to get a result anyway), and now mine and coral's claims are making each other look worse than we would've been individually. (which is also a factor in balancing.) and that's not even going into what scum possibly has as power roles.

like yeah, best case scenario for town is lol, but the worst case scenario for town is also lol. that's swing, not imbalance.

also, not that i necessarily agree with the following, but 3 cleared townies on d2, (7 alive, 2 scum alive) is still 50% ev.

again i dont see how u can balance around "in the worst case scenario for town scum has a chance", as a design philosophy thats super busted, u need to examine how easy it is for town to get a near lock based on rhings going right

[scamper]

and u have to ask yourself why scum needs a *backup neigborizer* in a micro, thats such a profoundly useless role

it does provide a safe claim against th neap i guess (while the goon is immune to the complex cop) but that still seems really incredibly weak in contrast to everything else in the setup

I don't think they think I'm mafia backup neighborizer, perhaps informed backup neighborizer, mafia informed, mafia rolecop, etc.

i guess if u pulled a sneaky play as rolecop its not implausible but still rather silly

i still dont think its u on play

[scamper]

whatever, ive said my piece

i dont think its meg and will remain consistent in my position there

if meg is the last scum, we win anyway and thats fine

if its not meg i will be snapvoting dats in elo

[scamper]

i dont care to rgue setup spec anymore because i dont agree and ultimately i dont think megs play this game comes from scum

[scamper]

if its not meg i will be snapvoting dats in elo

bfore someone asks: "haven't you been saying you think it's coral?" yes. i do. but the two plausible scenarios in case we get there are either that 1. i am wrong in my read and have been all game or 2. dats and ausuka roadblocked me all game from killing the last scum at which point victory was never an option to begin with

[scamper]

i think the 180 on coral from meg is very suspicious

I don't really see coral here and I'm sorry if I'm wrong and pocketed or whatever but that's just what i think

Pedit: ok? whatever then

i mean in this scenario what else does town!meg do exactly

[scamper]

UNVOTE:

Whatever

I feel like people are mad at my play right now but idk what to do

I'll come back when I'm in a better place and have time to think

i'm not mad, ftr

i just disagree with your reads

it happens in mafia games

maybe you are right and i am wrong, i hardly claim to be perfect

[scamper]

@ausuka - sorry if i came off as pissy, it wasnt my intention


i think a vote on meg today is basically a foregone conclusion. in the event that meg flips town, you are almost certainly going to die overnight. i feel as though the last scum is already planning to pivot against me in 3-way. my future sight has gifted me this vision. if you feel incredibly strongly about one of dats/coral being town, please talk to me about it. i promise to take it into consideration.

[scamper]

(there are 2 vts flipped already, idk that 2/3 is a massive difference but i am town regardless)

Fwiw my main hangup with coral is more role based than play based I think?

Like... I don't think "scum decides to claim informed with a clear before they have any information on what claim would fit the setup, and specifically play around ausuka/the miller claim" is a particularly likely scenario.

Maybe this is just me, but I think coral is true claiming informed neighbourizer regardless of alignment and I do not think mafia is informed about a miller, like, ever? I also think mafia informed neighbourizer/town backup neighbourizer is a kind of weird interaction, while not impossible, I think town informed neighbourizer/mafia informed backup neighbourizer is so much neater

I know you didn't want to discuss setup spec and that's fine I'm just explaining my thoughts I guess

all good, no worries

[scamper]

i am around, i don't have anything to add atp

i assume coral will hammer, if she no-shows for whatever reason i'll do it

[scamper]

*sigh*

i just want to point out i had a game-winning poe on day 1 (coral/phoenix/dats/don)

i compromised on xayah because i was so strongly sure meg was town and didnt want to kill them and i was more iffy on xayah. that was my biggest mistake this game.

but i had found megs as town and couldnt save them

i was right that it didnt make sense for don+datisi+corals roles to all be town

so i'm a little bit frustrated rn...

[scamper]

anyway i was added to the hood, ill give the stuff in there a look over just to see if any of it is pertinent to solving but i think day 1 is *probably* the most important one

[scamper]

i literally was arguing for all of yesterday why i thought it was u and not megs and why your roles didnt make sense in terms of balance. ausuka didn't want to hear it, datisi didn't want to hear it, literally everyone else was tunneling meg. what are you expecting me to do, exactly?

[scamper]

i think you are scum that day. i write a massive case explaining why. dats and ausuka basically both go "nah" and say its megs. what else am i supposed to do?

[scamper]

imo i have more incentive to keep meg alive as scum because in a f3 with me and meg i think scum!me wins that every time. but regardless that ultimately falls on my failure to be persuasive which isnt related to my alignment. frankly i was going to complain more but ausuka seemed upset so i gave up. would any of that have made a difference? idk