Micro 624: Grey Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[Infinity 324]

Hi guys, I read the game before I replaced in. Here's what I got:

rach - Pushes her scumread karnos with a lot of conviction, seems to be trying to figure the game out. Town.
hoopla - Doesn't seem to be very careful and I liked her entrance, but I don't really like how she has been on the sidelines. Null.
TNE - Doesn't care about what people think of her, not trying to look town. Town.
Rosske - seems to be pushing on the easy target TNE, while not doing much else. Null leaning scum.
rb - takes strong stances and not afraid to get into arguments. Town.
java - I like his analysis, but not a ton of original scumhunting here. Null.
GuiltyLion - Putting in a lot of effort to try and solve the game, picking on things that wouldn't make sense for scum to pick on. Strong town.
karnos - Takes strong stances and plays very differently from Mini 1800. Town

VOTE: rosske back to L-1

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: hoopla

[Infinity 324]

idk what it is, I always seem to have a lot of townreads

I want you to explain your tne vote when I don't really see reasoning for it and you didn't comment on my townread on her

[Infinity 324]

Also, why not comment on the fact that my vote was clearly not a compromise when you just said it was time to compromise

[Infinity 324]

Hmm ok

I wanted to see your reaction and I'm not sure about it...

Your reasoning is interesting, but I'm not convinced the wagon isn't all-town/that scum wouldn't bus on an RVS wagon.

Do you think karnos is town for the same reasons?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: rosske

[Infinity 324]

rb, is inactivity a scumtell for you?

[Infinity 324]

Java, explain why you think rosske is scum please.

[Infinity 324]

Ok, makes sense. Rach went V/LA in at least a couple other games too.

What do you think about java who's kind of active lurking

[Infinity 324]

Forgot to respond to hoopla. What you're saying makes some sense, but I think scum could bus and then unvote using the fact that it's RVS as justification.

Plus the rosske wagon was 4 of my town reads.

[Infinity 324]

Wow ok that looks like a genuine townslip.

The setup is 6v3 town wins if 2 scum are lynched, no night unless scum is lynched.

[Infinity 324]

Hoopla, do you have any reads so far based on play?

PEdit: yeah I agree with that

[Infinity 324]

Hoopla, do you have any reads so far based on play?

I have some reads based on behavioral tells -- this page I've cleared Rach and TNE based on one. I also spared karnos' life based on a gut instinct, although I'm less sure about that instinct now that the game is narrowing down. I have had more gut instincts about some people's behaviors and posts, but things still have to add up from a broader perspective rather than on isolated tells alone.

Do you have behavior-based reads on people other than those 3, even gut ones?

Why do you say you "cleared" rach and TNE?

Are wagon analysis and gut normally your main scumhunting tools early on?

[Infinity 324]

Rach what are your reads atm? Do you still scumread karnos?

[Infinity 324]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

If it helps here is an ISO of him as scum, he is much more careful and indecisive there.

[Infinity 324]

Ok

Your theory talk makes sense, and fits your play this game. Unfortunately it makes it hard for me to get a good read on you because I often scumhunt based on how people analyze other people's motivations. I think scum could say exactly what you're saying and have it be wrong for this one game but right in general.

If rosske flips scum I would definitely look at hoopla

[Infinity 324]

I would've waited a little longer...

Eh it's probably scum anyway

[Infinity 324]

Well shit, time to re-evaluate

My top 2 scumreads atm would be java and hoopla just because they're not townreads lol

[Infinity 324]

I reread some stuff and it's not really getting me anywhere.[float=]

Me and 4 of my townreads were on the wagon. In fact, they were my 4 top townreads--rach would be my weakest townread atm. And I don't see any of them being scum, like at all :/

karnos played very differently than his scum game, has strong opinions and conviction.
guiltylion's effort in pushing his scumreads and finding every small scummy thing about people still looks very town.
tne's and rb's whole attitudes just don't fit with scum.

But there has to be at least one scum on the wagon...

Maybe tne's and rb's play is just a result of playstyle and they play that way regardless of alignment?

Ugh I'll just do this

VOTE: javajoe

[Infinity 324]

Actually I could see hoopla defending rosske for towncred. Hmm

I don't like how she's only using theory and gut to explain her reads, those are the easiest things to fake as scum. But there's nothing definitive that makes her scum...

I still want more from java.

[Infinity 324]

the thing with posts like 345 is that they're very easy posts for scum to make, as they can convincingly examine the gamestate while still knowing everyone's alignment. My problem with Hoopla is how she basically defined Rosske as town sheerly by looking at the wagon composition

pre-flip

, without diving at all into Rosske's actual play.

VOTE: Hoopla

Yeah I agree

VOTE: javajoe

Why game

why do you do this to me

This might even be a bus just cause I can't see who is scum if it's not :/

I still find karnos scummy, but I am thinking hoopla could be scum now because of his hard defense of rosske yesterday. That seems like a scum trying to get town cred after the rosske flip.

Hmm, what do you think about rb saying the same thing

Still need to meta TNE and rb to see if they can fake their attitudes in this game as scum.

To be honest if TNE played like this as scum I feel like a fake townslip is also something she would do as scum. I think being a little ballsy like that fits with her attitude.

I don't like java's recent posts, so my vote stays where it is.

[Infinity 324]

also I haven't brought this up yet but I don't like the easy townreads on TNE and Rach for their "slips" - I expect town to understand the rules of the game and I think faking a lack of knowledge is well within anyone competent's scum toolbox. Individually I think both of their play has looked fine but I'm definitely going to re-evaluate how people were throwing down those townreads in a bit.

I think this is fair, but rach's townslip looked very genuine to me.

[Infinity 324]

-_-

[Infinity 324]

TNE, how good would you say you are as scum?

[Infinity 324]

Also can you link me to a scumgame of yours cause I don't feel like going through all your past games atm

[Infinity 324]

Why do you keep saying things that other people already said

[Infinity 324]

O...k

[Infinity 324]

I literally just wanted a link to see if you're capable of what you're doing this game as scum too, you don't have to make a big fuss out of it...

[Infinity 324]

Ooook here's what I got.

This is TNE's ISO in a recently completed scum game of hers, and the neighbor thread (though she wasn't in it for very long):
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Neighbor PT:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

And an older game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

She seems to have the same type of attitude, "flippant" as rb called it, in those games. I'm pretty sure I would've townread her if I had been in those games.

This isn't really a reason TNE is scum, but it's possible what me and others were townreading her for is not really a good reason.

So ehh

I mean, given the fact that I'm townreading most of the people in the same, I wanna say she's probably just scum…

But it just seems like too much of a coincidence if BOTH the players I can't get a good read on this game were scum…

ugh

[Infinity 324]

The bottom half is a misattributed quote to me and I don't know who actually said it or what he's talking about really.

Oh that's supposed to be a java quote lol

Its fine and all, but basing a read around meta is pretty bullshit

Using meta as your supporting reasons AFTER you made a case on THIS game, I'm fine.

Ok, but the thing is

I would townread you based on your play this game

But I'm like, 90% sure that I would also townread you based on your play in those scumgames

so idk, like how accurate can my townread be

[Infinity 324]

I never said it was a reason scum read TNE

It's more like, the reason to townread her isn't as strong

So she could be scum by PoE

[Infinity 324]

the reason to townread her isn't as strong

So... Its a reason to scumread me?

I dunno that really sounds like bullcrap

I literally said it WASNT a particular reason to scumread you

What's so hard to understand about this

[Infinity 324]

Nah you're misrepping me

Are you talking to me? I fail to see how I am misrepping you if so...

Possible distancing? Hmm

[Infinity 324]

rb, have you ever played in a game with TNE-scum? Your meta read is kinda weak otherwise

[Infinity 324]

I NEVER SAID I HAD A REASON TO SCUMREAD YOU OTHER THAN POE

[Infinity 324]

alright I disagree but we're arguing semantics at this point

How about you give a reason instead of "it's meta and meta is bullshit

PEdit: ehh ok

[Infinity 324]

Well my only read scumread right now is java, and it's not even that strong :/

That's why I'm trying to PoE stuff

[Infinity 324]

Ok here's a scumgame of rb's.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... B%5D=28086

He generally tries to be nice and doesn't get into any heated arguments. In fact he mentioned that himself here:

move on from exposing you as scum? I don't think so

Do you have a history of blowing up like this in past town games?

My scum game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=150

Notice how I put emphasis on those stupid little read lists that everyone apparently just LLOOOVVEESS to use and how I spend the game just being nice and joking around with people?

The fact that he didn't mention it until guilty brought up the subject of his meta, makes me doubt he's getting into these arguments to look town. And if it worked last time to stay calm, be nice, and not get anyone riled up, why wouldn't he do the same thing again?

It's true rb is flip-flopping, but it's the kind of flip-flopping that to me is too obvious to be scummy. I think most scum, even noobs, would think that the value of opportunistically jumping onto wagons doesn't really outweigh the downside of changing your opinions so obviously. Even though rb hasn't gotten a lot of heat for it this game, I think as scum he would've been afraid of that.

[Infinity 324]

Why?

[Infinity 324]

I don't see how those posts are towny...

java doesn't look like he's trying to solve the game, has few unique opinions, and is non-committal.

[Infinity 324]

Prod dodge, going to respond about java later today

[Infinity 324]

It looks to me like he's trying to solve the game. His push on karnos by "setting aside the derphammer argument" feels genuine, it shows he's looking at motivations and tone more so than NAI opinions/contradictions which is what scum tend to riff on. And he pointed out a potentially subtle townslip, I see absolutely no scum!motivation in doing that.

I still don't feel like there is genuine reasoning behind his arguments. Java has no original reasons to vote hoopla, he just repeated what rb said about the defense of rosske and what TNE said about hoopla buddying.

Also, he weights things is a way that doesn't make sense for town. Java is voting hoopla using a point that rb brought up (the defense of rosske), but doesn't bring that up in his discussion about rb. He does, however, point out that TNE said the same thing as him and called TNE town for that.

Another example is being conflicted on rb in the post where he pointed out the townslip, then later calling rb probably town for it.

I know this is exactly what you're saying is NAI, but I just have a feeling there isn't really a town mindset behind it in this case. Contradictions like that often come from more impulsive town, where java if he was town would be more careful and contemplative. He doesn't seem like the type of person who would think about the same thing twice and come to a different conclusion.

About the karnos thing, I actually think it was easier for java not to look at the derphammer argument. Scum don't like getting into 1v1 arguments, and bringing up the derphammer discussion would likely get him involved in it. It doesn't really feel like he was analyzing motivation or tone there, just a specific thing that karnos did that could have easily come from town.

About pointing out the townslip, you have a point, but scum!java could have easily done that to look like he was trying to read rb.

What I mean by "he doesn't look like he's trying to solve the game" is that it feels like he's pointing out things to call town or scum rather than trying to find who the scum are in a general sense. I guess a lot of it comes down to gut.

I was hoping you'd identify what I was looking at but you don't seem interested in considering the possibility of town!javajoe. Why?

I'm trying to consider the possibility, but I find it hard to see a world where java is town because of how strong my townreads are on everyone. I linked a scumgame of karnos' earlier, and he played completely differently. What do you think about that?

I don't believe in noncommittal behavior being a scumtell. I know it goes against site meta but I think town are often genuinely unsure of themselves and I think it's much easier for scum to commit themselves to fake reads in an effort to look "committed" and like they "believe in their reads".

I think scum tend to be more cautious in their reads because that means they have more leeway to vote for whoever they want. Look at java's positions right now, he could realistically vote for almost anyone in the game except maybe rach. It also makes it less likely to get into 1v1s that way.

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I agree. Also when there's a SvT argument usually it's identified as such.

Who do you think is scum other than joe?

[Infinity 324]

I thought guilty's pushes on d1 were thorough to the point of being nitpicky, and I don't think that's something scum would do. What do you think?

[Infinity 324]

How about TNE?

[Infinity 324]

Did you look at the scum games of hers I linked?

[Infinity 324]

No problem, there's no rush.

[Infinity 324]

I think that your careful playstyle doesn't make sense as town with those contradictions.

Can you actually explain the contradictions please?

[Infinity 324]

Contradictions like that often come from more impulsive town, where java if he was town would be more careful and contemplative. He doesn't seem like the type of person who would think about the same thing twice and come to a different conclusion.

What do you not get

[Infinity 324]

I think that your careful playstyle doesn't make sense as town with those contradictions.

Can you actually explain the contradictions please?

What contradictions?

Also, he weights things is a way that doesn't make sense for town. Java is voting hoopla using a point that rb brought up (the defense of rosske), but doesn't bring that up in his discussion about rb. He does, however, point out that TNE said the same thing as him and called TNE town for that.

Another example is being conflicted on rb in the post where he pointed out the townslip, then later calling rb probably town for it.

[Infinity 324]

Contradictions like that often come from more impulsive town, where java if he was town would be more careful and contemplative. He doesn't seem like the type of person who would think about the same thing twice and come to a different conclusion.

What do you not get

If I'm reading it correctly, it looks like you're saying java's townplay would look different than what you see from impulsive town? How do you know java well enough to be making statements about what type of person he is?

I'm saying he doesn't look like the type of player who is impulsive and says things without thinking things through, he looks like he

is

thinking things through so he shouldn't contradict himself like that as town.

[Infinity 324]

Well once you said you were conflicted on him for the townslip, the later you said he was probably town for it...

[Infinity 324]

Ok, why didn't you say that earlier? All you said was "I'm conflicted on rb, here's this townslip" and "oh thanks for reminding me about the townslip, he's probably town" and those statements don't really match up.

Anyway you can go ahead an hammer, rb

[Infinity 324]

Karnos, what do you think this flip will be? Who would be possible scum partners for java? Who else would be scum if he's not?

[Infinity 324]

I wonder if karnos might be scum actually

[Infinity 324]

Ok, why didn't you say that earlier? All you said was "I'm conflicted on rb, here's this townslip" and "oh thanks for reminding me about the townslip, he's probably town" and those statements don't really match up.

Anyway you can go ahead an hammer, rb

also this is like a super scumpost

"why didn't you clarify earlier?", yet doesn't re-evaluate his read

I think he made that up as an explanation after the fact.

[Infinity 324]

doubt that he did, and doubt that you think that

Lol, he changed his opinion for no good reason and the explanation he gives is "I thought it over more" and you buy that?

[Infinity 324]

Guilty, if java is scum, who is scum with him?

[Infinity 324]

I don't think that was a scum slip, I think you're stretching things a bit

[Infinity 324]

Eh, I think GuiltyLion is stretching and I'm not really seeing what he's seeing, but his overzealous belief that karnos is scum makes me think he is town.

This exactly

Ok hoopla is probably town

Who do you think java's partners are

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: TNE

Her interactions with java yesterday looked a lot like distancing.

I want to look at karnos again, and I want at least 1 person who scumreads him to look at the scumgame I linked because it is

very

different.

[Infinity 324]

Infin what do you think of karnos?

I'm thinking he could possibly be scum, given how many townreads I have, but I want to ISO him and again, I want someone to check out that scumgame of his

[Infinity 324]

All these votes that lead nowhere though

Lmao you actually suck

VOTE: Infinity

Fight me

[Infinity 324]

You're the one that said it though

[Infinity 324]

Your interactions looked like distancing to me. That is a fact.

Is it even worth talking to you anymore?

[Infinity 324]

Rach what do you think about the TNE/java interactions

[Infinity 324]

Hmm ok

[Infinity 324]

Look at that beautiful vote count

[Infinity 324]

Do it, please

After that it would be great if we lynched TNE

[Infinity 324]

who do you think is scum

[Infinity 324]

Ugh

Don't like karnos wagon if only because TNE is on it and scum would never bus here

[Infinity 324]

Yeah, those do look towny with scum!java flip

[Infinity 324]

[Infinity 324]

Karnos, why do you say rach has a 66% chance of being scum?

[Infinity 324]

It's true scum wouldn't bus at this point...unless they like to gambit...

[Infinity 324]

Karnos' analysis looks like he's genuinely trying to figure out the game and not just push a CW which I would expect him to do as scum.

Rach, why would scum not bus java yesterday, but bus karnos today when they lose if he is lynched? Karnos + guilty is impossible unless guilty is insane.

Gonna look for possible partners for TNE, I'm town reading everyone else in the game so something's gotta give.

[Infinity 324]

Karnos is town...

[Infinity 324]

Possible TNE lynch today?? This is exciting

[Infinity 324]

rb, who do you think is more likely scum out of rach and guilty

[Infinity 324]

And Infinity could be scum with Karnos or GL. I need to reread TNE + Infinity but right now I think Karnos is town enough to not lynch at the moment and the lynch should be GL/Rach.

Still, I wanna see karnos say town things at times other than when he's at L-1. He IS towntelling for me rn, but he keeps getting put at L-1 because his overall play isn't...dunno what to make of the fact that he keeps getting to L-1 either. Maybe both scum were already on his wagon? I feel like scum woulda hammered by now.

I mean, his wagon was rach, guilty, TNE just now, and outside of you, that's pretty much my scumpool. Do you agree?

Also, answer my question please

[Infinity 324]

Ugh this game

I'll get to it tomorrow

[Infinity 324]

I finally decided I should stop avoiding this game, and re-ISO'd everyone. Here's where I'm at.

karnos - I still don't see much of a reason for him to change so drastically from his scum game, he did get quite a bit of heat there but I think it would've been difficult even if he tried. Also, both times when he was wagoned, he did some genuine analysis and the AtE does not seem fake.

rb - This reasoning:

Ok here's a scumgame of rb's.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... B%5D=28086

He generally tries to be nice and doesn't get into any heated arguments. In fact he mentioned that himself here:

move on from exposing you as scum? I don't think so

Do you have a history of blowing up like this in past town games?

My scum game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=150

Notice how I put emphasis on those stupid little read lists that everyone apparently just LLOOOVVEESS to use and how I spend the game just being nice and joking around with people?

The fact that he didn't mention it until guilty brought up the subject of his meta, makes me doubt he's getting into these arguments to look town. And if it worked last time to stay calm, be nice, and not get anyone riled up, why wouldn't he do the same thing again?

It's true rb is flip-flopping, but it's the kind of flip-flopping that to me is too obvious to be scummy. I think most scum, even noobs, would think that the value of opportunistically jumping onto wagons doesn't really outweigh the downside of changing your opinions so obviously. Even though rb hasn't gotten a lot of heat for it this game, I think as scum he would've been afraid of that.

still applies, again it's hard to see him changing his meta so drastically for no good reason. Since we're mainly on the same page with scumreads, plus the fact that karnos was at L-1 for a long time without rb hammering, it's hard for me to imagine a scumpartner with rb except for karnos. However, since I have pretty strong townreads on them independently, I doubt that's the case.

rach - There's still her fake townslip which looked very genuine, and I thought her push on karnos d1 had a lot of towny conviction. It's true she may have overreacted to a few people scumreading her, but I've seen her get very emotional when attacked as town before, and the emotion itself looks genuine.

TNE - I ISO'd her again and I'm more confident in my scumread. She tries to make people feel silly for pushing on her, which is a common tactic for confident scum. She jumped on the java wagon at a perfect time when it was clear he would be lynched, without really mentioning him earlier. (!!!)

guilty - I was reading him as town for his pushes on d1, but I kind of wrote him off since then. However, there are a few things in his ISO that are giving me some doubts. It's kind of odd how he goes back and forth between certainty karnos is scum and then townreading him again, almost like he stops being able to justify his push and then finds a way to start again. I also don't like how, when I brought up my uncertainty about hoopla's reliance of wagon analysis, he kind of took that idea and used it to push on her.

I'm not as confident here as I am in TNE, and he would've to have played quite a good game, but I feel like he's the most likely partner.

I'm willing to discuss this with people, people that think karnos is town kind of need to consolidate if we're gonna lynch scum today. I'm confident in our ability to win this.

[Infinity 324]

What do you mean by Rach's fake townslip which looked genuine?

If it's fake it's not genuine?

Lol not fake

Android keyboard...

VOTE: Karnos

what the what

whyyyyy

[Infinity 324]

guilty/TNE tomorrow.

[Infinity 324]

Can everyone please go back and reread rb+java

Please

I looked at this again, and I see what you're talking about, however I think TNE was even worse in that regard. At least rb stated a null-scumread on java before there was a wagon, TNE just hopped on at L-1 which draws less attention to yourself and only mentioned java once before to say he was misrepping her.

I'll be here to talk about stuff, but I'm pretty confident in at least TNE.

[Infinity 324]

How does L-1 draw LESS attention to yourself?

TNE could have instead put an L-1 vote onto Hoopla and she didn't.

L-1 draws less attention than a hammer...

Also hoopla only had 2 votes on her at the time, so no.

What do you mean by Rach's fake townslip which looked genuine?

If it's fake it's not genuine?

Lol not fake

Actually you know what, this is still weird to me.

So the sentence you wanted to write out was

"There's still her

not

fake townslip which looked very genuine"

That feels really stiff and forced to me. Who calls something "not fake" and then has to clarify that it looked genuine? If you truly believed it wasn't fake, then you wouldn't feel compelled to qualify further.

And describing things as "not fake" as an adjective clause is just awkward in general

It feels like your post was crafted instead of written from authentic town point of view

I added in the word "fake" accidentally cause fake townslips were on my mind.

You're really stretching here...

[Infinity 324]

What do you mean by Rach's fake townslip which looked genuine?

If it's fake it's not genuine?

Lol not fake

Actually you know what, this is still weird to me.

So the sentence you wanted to write out was

"There's still her

not

fake townslip which looked very genuine"

That feels really stiff and forced to me. Who calls something "not fake" and then has to clarify that it looked genuine? If you truly believed it wasn't fake, then you wouldn't feel compelled to qualify further.

And describing things as "not fake" as an adjective clause is just awkward in general

It feels like your post was crafted instead of written from authentic town point of view

I added in the word "fake" accidentally cause fake townslips were on my mind.

You're really stretching here...

Literally, guilty just assumed something in my post that wasn't there and made a whole big deal on how the wording was off in this hypothetical post.

Looks like scum desperation to me.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity can you go look @ GuiltyLion's 47 misreps of me on pages 2-5ish and then think about your townread for a sec? Because I'm thinking if GL is scum TNE might be buddy, and you keep thinking TNE is scum.

This latest interaction is so poor and weak coming from GL as well. He's dancing around your wording like "oo that's weird" whereas with others he is like "GOT U SCUM!!"

I swear this guy is scum and partner is Rach/TNE

I'll look that over again, I'm just worried that we'll lose to rach + TNE scumteam

It could be rach + you but neither of you gave yourselves an out not to bus each other so I doubt it

[Infinity 324]

I asked you to clarify and you said "not fake".

I didn't think that meant you didn't mean to add fake, thought you meant you meant to write "not fake".

Regardless, it's weird that you included the word 'fake'. Again, still feels like your post is crafted. What makes you say my point is desperate?

You're stretching to find reasons I'm scum that aren't really there. Picking on the "not fake" wording would've been a stretch in and of itself, but you also assumed that's what I wanted to say, when I didn't explicitly say that.

and then in your next post you imply that I'm not scum?

"I'm worried that" =///= "I think that"

This is what I mean by stretching

It's probably just TNE/guilty

[Infinity 324]

You're stretching to find reasons I'm scum that aren't really there. Picking on the "not fake" wording would've been a stretch in and of itself, but you also assumed that's what I wanted to say, when I didn't explicitly say that.

I specifically asked you to explain what you meant, and your clarification was "not fake".

The fact that you're then trying to spin me responding to your own answer as scummy is some incredible mental gymnastics.

I guess I could see how you would think that, but the fact that you immediately jumped to the fact that I meant to say "not fake" as opposed to not the word "fake", especially when it's unusual phrasing regardless of my alignment, is kinda skeevy.

Picking on small wording things like that is a stretch anyway, that assumption just stretches it even further.

@Mod, there are only 5 players alive

Fixed. We apologise for the inconvienience. — callforjudgement

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I'm not seeing rach scum, and guilty suddenly deciding I'm town is sus. Like he tried to stretch to find reasons why I'm scum and realized it wasn't working and decided to call rach scum.

Intent to vote guilty

[Infinity 324]

Guilty, you have a good point about rach's "townslip", though I could also see it from town. About the overblown AtE, that's definitely something I have seen from town!rach and it looks genuine to me.

My main issue is that everyone looks at least somewhat town to me except TNE, and I'm quite confident she's scum. rb doesn't make sense as a partner with her, but you do. You've talked about everyone except TNE today, and I especially don't like how you call out rb for bad interactions with java when TNE's were even worse. She didn't even mention him until d2, then she called out 1 post of his as misrepping her and then she voted him to L-1. Can you explain why you think she's town?

I'll reread and look for interactions sometime today.

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@Rach Make sure you're paying attention to the deadline

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Possible scumteams:
rach/rb
guilty/rb (very unlikely)
guilty/TNE

Will reread and make a final decision tomorrow.

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VOTE: guilty

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?

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That was a fun game

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I'm glad I didn't have to come up with more reasons for guilty scum, he was pretty transparently town

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Thanks

Me and rb were the 2 people off the karnos wagon, that was kinda funny but neither of us could reasonably switch so we just kinda let it go through

PEdit: yeah that sucks rach, I would've considered replacing out if RL stuff was affecting your ability to play the game so much.

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cfj, I loved the setup by the way. I felt like we were constantly on a knife's edge.

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Hoopla played really well btw

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Yeah, go ahead

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gg, thanks for modding cfj!

If anyone has advice for me about who I should've pushed, etc I'm open to it. This game was rather difficult in that regard, and I think that's why I was able to fake confused town on d2 (because I was confused scum).

Java vote was meant to be a distance vote so that I could switch to hoopla at deadline, I didn't expect a wagon on him. I didn't know what else to do at that point since it was hard for me to justify a vote on hoopla over java.

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Thanks! And I agree rb played well too.

Java wasn't really that scummy looking back, I do think I exaggerated some of my points against him Java, I do think it would help if you gave more overall thoughts on the game instead of focusing on small things.

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What you're saying make sense cfj, but honestly I had a hard time coming up with reasons for anyone as scum. I guess that's my main weakness as scum player: how to justify voting people I would town read as town.

You're right that voting TNE could've been a good strategy, I didn't think through the implications of voting early that much.

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Hoopla certainly could've been lynched before the java flip; afterwards it was much harder:

Hopefully with more experience I'll get better at pushing who I want when I want (this is only my 4th scum game ever I believe).

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Yeah I agree guilty played quite well

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Yeah I felt pretty confident the whole way through even though we were close to losing at points.

And yeah, it's impressive how few replacements were needed.

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Yeah that's a good idea, and you should emphasize that new players should read through all the rules

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Me-rach team could've hammered rb a while ago

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np, fun playing with you too

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lol

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My bus wasn't actually intended to go through until people started piling on lol

I probably should've tried to find a way to vote hoopla and that would've made the game so much easier

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Would've felt bad about it though since she was basically getting scumreads for playing well lol

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If I could've made up some bullshit about why hoopla was scummier, I would've done that