Micro 624: Grey Flag Nightless (Game Over)
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
Hi guys, I read the game before I replaced in. Here's what I got:
rach - Pushes her scumread karnos with a lot of conviction, seems to be trying to figure the game out. Town.
hoopla - Doesn't seem to be very careful and I liked her entrance, but I don't really like how she has been on the sidelines. Null.
TNE - Doesn't care about what people think of her, not trying to look town. Town.
Rosske - seems to be pushing on the easy target TNE, while not doing much else. Null leaning scum.
rb - takes strong stances and not afraid to get into arguments. Town.
java - I like his analysis, but not a ton of original scumhunting here. Null.
GuiltyLion - Putting in a lot of effort to try and solve the game, picking on things that wouldn't make sense for scum to pick on. Strong town.
karnos - Takes strong stances and plays very differently from Mini 1800. Town
VOTE: rosske back to L-1-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
Hmm ok
I wanted to see your reaction and I'm not sure about it...
Your reasoning is interesting, but I'm not convinced the wagon isn't all-town/that scum wouldn't bus on an RVS wagon.
Do you think karnos is town for the same reasons?
UNVOTE:
VOTE: rosske-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
Do you have behavior-based reads on people other than those 3, even gut ones?In post 396, Hoopla wrote:
I have some reads based on behavioral tells -- this page I've cleared Rach and TNE based on one. I also spared karnos' life based on a gut instinct, although I'm less sure about that instinct now that the game is narrowing down. I have had more gut instincts about some people's behaviors and posts, but things still have to add up from a broader perspective rather than on isolated tells alone.In post 394, Infinity 324 wrote:Hoopla, do you have any reads so far based on play?
Why do you say you "cleared" rach and TNE?
Are wagon analysis and gut normally your main scumhunting tools early on?-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
If it helps here is an ISO of him as scum, he is much more careful and indecisive there.-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
Ok
Your theory talk makes sense, and fits your play this game. Unfortunately it makes it hard for me to get a good read on you because I often scumhunt based on how people analyze other people's motivations. I think scum could say exactly what you're saying and have it be wrong for this one game but right in general.
If rosske flips scum I would definitely look at hoopla-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
I reread some stuff and it's not really getting me anywhere.[float=]
Me and 4 of my townreads were on the wagon. In fact, they were my 4 top townreads--rach would be my weakest townread atm. And I don't see any of them being scum, like at all :/
karnos played very differently than his scum game, has strong opinions and conviction.
guiltylion's effort in pushing his scumreads and finding every small scummy thing about people still looks very town.
tne's and rb's whole attitudes just don't fit with scum.
But there has to be at least one scum on the wagon...
Maybe tne's and rb's play is just a result of playstyle and they play that way regardless of alignment?
Ugh I'll just do this
VOTE: javajoe-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
Actually I could see hoopla defending rosske for towncred. Hmm
I don't like how she's only using theory and gut to explain her reads, those are the easiest things to fake as scum. But there's nothing definitive that makes her scum...
I still want more from java.-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
Yeah I agreeIn post 429, GuiltyLion wrote:the thing with posts like 345 is that they're very easy posts for scum to make, as they can convincingly examine the gamestate while still knowing everyone's alignment. My problem with Hoopla is how she basically defined Rosske as town sheerly by looking at the wagon compositionpre-flip, without diving at all into Rosske's actual play.
VOTE: Hoopla
Why game
why do you do this to me
This might even be a bus just cause I can't see who is scum if it's not :/
Hmm, what do you think about rb saying the same thingIn post 433, Hoopla wrote:I still find karnos scummy, but I am thinking hoopla could be scum now because of his hard defense of rosske yesterday. That seems like a scum trying to get town cred after the rosske flip.
Still need to meta TNE and rb to see if they can fake their attitudes in this game as scum.
To be honest if TNE played like this as scum I feel like a fake townslip is also something she would do as scum. I think being a little ballsy like that fits with her attitude.
I don't like java's recent posts, so my vote stays where it is.-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
I think this is fair, but rach's townslip looked very genuine to me.In post 428, GuiltyLion wrote:also I haven't brought this up yet but I don't like the easy townreads on TNE and Rach for their "slips" - I expect town to understand the rules of the game and I think faking a lack of knowledge is well within anyone competent's scum toolbox. Individually I think both of their play has looked fine but I'm definitely going to re-evaluate how people were throwing down those townreads in a bit.-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
Ooook here's what I got.
This is TNE's ISO in a recently completed scum game of hers, and the neighbor thread (though she wasn't in it for very long):
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
Neighbor PT:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
And an older game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
She seems to have the same type of attitude, "flippant" as rb called it, in those games. I'm pretty sure I would've townread her if I had been in those games.
This isn't really a reason TNE is scum, but it's possible what me and others were townreading her for is not really a good reason.
So ehh
I mean, given the fact that I'm townreading most of the people in the same, I wanna say she's probably just scum…
But it just seems like too much of a coincidence if BOTH the players I can't get a good read on this game were scum…
ugh-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
Oh that's supposed to be a java quote lolIn post 473, Hoopla wrote:The bottom half is a misattributed quote to me and I don't know who actually said it or what he's talking about really.
Ok, but the thing isIn post 474, thenewearth wrote:Its fine and all, but basing a read around meta is pretty bullshit
Using meta as your supporting reasons AFTER you made a case on THIS game, I'm fine.
I would townread you based on your play this game
But I'm like, 90% sure that I would also townread you based on your play in those scumgames
so idk, like how accurate can my townread be-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
I literally said it WASNT a particular reason to scumread youIn post 481, thenewearth wrote:
So... Its a reason to scumread me?In post 480, Infinity 324 wrote:the reason to townread her isn't as strong
I dunno that really sounds like bullcrap
What's so hard to understand about this-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
Possible distancing? HmmIn post 486, Javajoe24 wrote:
Are you talking to me? I fail to see how I am misrepping you if so...In post 484, thenewearth wrote:Nah you're misrepping me-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
Ok here's a scumgame of rb's.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... B%5D=28086
He generally tries to be nice and doesn't get into any heated arguments. In fact he mentioned that himself here:
The fact that he didn't mention it until guilty brought up the subject of his meta, makes me doubt he's getting into these arguments to look town. And if it worked last time to stay calm, be nice, and not get anyone riled up, why wouldn't he do the same thing again?In post 227, rb wrote:
My scum game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=150In post 222, GuiltyLion wrote:move on from exposing you as scum? I don't think so
Do you have a history of blowing up like this in past town games?
Notice how I put emphasis on those stupid little read lists that everyone apparently just LLOOOVVEESS to use and how I spend the game just being nice and joking around with people?
It's true rb is flip-flopping, but it's the kind of flip-flopping that to me is too obvious to be scummy. I think most scum, even noobs, would think that the value of opportunistically jumping onto wagons doesn't really outweigh the downside of changing your opinions so obviously. Even though rb hasn't gotten a lot of heat for it this game, I think as scum he would've been afraid of that.-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
I still don't feel like there is genuine reasoning behind his arguments. Java has no original reasons to vote hoopla, he just repeated what rb said about the defense of rosske and what TNE said about hoopla buddying.In post 529, GuiltyLion wrote:It looks to me like he's trying to solve the game. His push on karnos by "setting aside the derphammer argument" feels genuine, it shows he's looking at motivations and tone more so than NAI opinions/contradictions which is what scum tend to riff on. And he pointed out a potentially subtle townslip, I see absolutely no scum!motivation in doing that.
Also, he weights things is a way that doesn't make sense for town. Java is voting hoopla using a point that rb brought up (the defense of rosske), but doesn't bring that up in his discussion about rb. He does, however, point out that TNE said the same thing as him and called TNE town for that.
Another example is being conflicted on rb in the post where he pointed out the townslip, then later calling rb probably town for it.
I know this is exactly what you're saying is NAI, but I just have a feeling there isn't really a town mindset behind it in this case. Contradictions like that often come from more impulsive town, where java if he was town would be more careful and contemplative. He doesn't seem like the type of person who would think about the same thing twice and come to a different conclusion.
About the karnos thing, I actually think it was easier for java not to look at the derphammer argument. Scum don't like getting into 1v1 arguments, and bringing up the derphammer discussion would likely get him involved in it. It doesn't really feel like he was analyzing motivation or tone there, just a specific thing that karnos did that could have easily come from town.
About pointing out the townslip, you have a point, but scum!java could have easily done that to look like he was trying to read rb.
What I mean by "he doesn't look like he's trying to solve the game" is that it feels like he's pointing out things to call town or scum rather than trying to find who the scum are in a general sense. I guess a lot of it comes down to gut.
I'm trying to consider the possibility, but I find it hard to see a world where java is town because of how strong my townreads are on everyone. I linked a scumgame of karnos' earlier, and he played completely differently. What do you think about that?I was hoping you'd identify what I was looking at but you don't seem interested in considering the possibility of town!javajoe. Why?
I think scum tend to be more cautious in their reads because that means they have more leeway to vote for whoever they want. Look at java's positions right now, he could realistically vote for almost anyone in the game except maybe rach. It also makes it less likely to get into 1v1s that way.I don't believe in noncommittal behavior being a scumtell. I know it goes against site meta but I think town are often genuinely unsure of themselves and I think it's much easier for scum to commit themselves to fake reads in an effort to look "committed" and like they "believe in their reads".-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
What do you not getIn post 560, GuiltyLion wrote:In post 546, Infinity 324 wrote:Contradictions like that often come from more impulsive town, where java if he was town would be more careful and contemplative. He doesn't seem like the type of person who would think about the same thing twice and come to a different conclusion.-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
In post 564, Javajoe24 wrote:
What contradictions?In post 558, Infinity 324 wrote:I think that your careful playstyle doesn't make sense as town with those contradictions.
Can you actually explain the contradictions please?In post 546, Infinity 324 wrote:Also, he weights things is a way that doesn't make sense for town. Java is voting hoopla using a point that rb brought up (the defense of rosske), but doesn't bring that up in his discussion about rb. He does, however, point out that TNE said the same thing as him and called TNE town for that.
Another example is being conflicted on rb in the post where he pointed out the townslip, then later calling rb probably town for it.-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
I'm saying he doesn't look like the type of player who is impulsive and says things without thinking things through, he looks like heIn post 566, GuiltyLion wrote:
If I'm reading it correctly, it looks like you're saying java's townplay would look different than what you see from impulsive town? How do you know java well enough to be making statements about what type of person he is?In post 562, Infinity 324 wrote:
What do you not getIn post 560, GuiltyLion wrote:In post 546, Infinity 324 wrote:Contradictions like that often come from more impulsive town, where java if he was town would be more careful and contemplative. He doesn't seem like the type of person who would think about the same thing twice and come to a different conclusion.isthinking things through so he shouldn't contradict himself like that as town.-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
Ok, why didn't you say that earlier? All you said was "I'm conflicted on rb, here's this townslip" and "oh thanks for reminding me about the townslip, he's probably town" and those statements don't really match up.
Anyway you can go ahead an hammer, rb-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
I think he made that up as an explanation after the fact.In post 585, GuiltyLion wrote:
also this is like a super scumpostIn post 579, Infinity 324 wrote:Ok, why didn't you say that earlier? All you said was "I'm conflicted on rb, here's this townslip" and "oh thanks for reminding me about the townslip, he's probably town" and those statements don't really match up.
Anyway you can go ahead an hammer, rb
"why didn't you clarify earlier?", yet doesn't re-evaluate his read-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
Lol, he changed his opinion for no good reason and the explanation he gives is "I thought it over more" and you buy that?In post 590, GuiltyLion wrote:doubt that he did, and doubt that you think that-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)
This exactlyIn post 623, Hoopla wrote:Eh, I think GuiltyLion is stretching and I'm not really seeing what he's seeing, but his overzealous belief that karnos is scum makes me think he is town.
Ok hoopla is probably town
Who do you think java's partners are-
-
Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18337
- Joined: April 7, 2013
- Pronoun: they (pl.)