Micro 687: Vanilluxe Mafia - Mafia Victory!!!
-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
VOTE: Sobolev Space
Hi Sobolev! I'm town this time, are you?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
why didn't you say anything when you made this vote?
"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I thought it was pretty safe and NAI. I don't really townread her for it but I also didn't think it was worth pushing against you townreading her for it. I've only played one game with SS and I was scum so I don't really have any familiarity with her scumgame or how to read her, I was just poking her to start things off"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
eh yeah I mean I think that line of reasoning is sound, but I also think some people when they're town will openly just be like "yes I'm town! " and she didn't really do that either. Like it's also possible scum!S_S would know she needs to act like she doesn't know that I'm town and so defaulting to a funny youtube video is a safe way to do that. I don't really have a strong feeling towards one world or the other so I'm meh on it.In post 32, borkjerfkin wrote:to me it seemed if she were scum she'd likely have focused on directly addressing the question in the latter part of the statement rather than focusing on paranoia wrt the former part
i'll admit i have fuckall else to go on in this game so far
But yeah, this game is definitely slow going so far and I appreciate you trying to make stuff happen"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
basically my plan on dealing with S_S is if she's town she should probably recognize quickly that this is not my scumgame, so if she scumreads me then she's confirmed scum. If she townreads me then she could be either alignment still, but at least it'll be one fewer person to push a mislynch on me"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
S_S no response to my 36?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I mean duh it's illogical, it's meant to get more out of Sobolev and be cheeky. That's why I put a emoticon"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
yah I mean that's why I asked, I couldn't tell if it was because of Eddie's self-vote or meant to be an RVS. I would guess it was a serious vote since it was naked but if that's the case I don't know why you wouldn't just explain it at the same time.In post 74, borkjerfkin wrote:Since that doesn't seem to be coming, I also want to know how GulityLion was perceiving it when he made 26"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
It is absolutely meant to keep suspicion on. I didn't like the naked vote and I didn't like her response to me, I see no reason to townread SBF yet. This thought from you feels intellectually lazy, as if you're operating from a framework where casting suspicion on anyone is automatically scummy.In post 107, Fro99er wrote:Now that I reread it, the second sentence looks like trying to keep suspicion on. The first sentence also kinda looks like GL read into what Bork was trying to get at and answered accordingly."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I'm about here
{bork, TTTT}
{lowell, eddie}
{SS, bella}
{fro99er}
{SBF}
let's wagon this
VOTE: SweetBlueFlowers"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
generally I feel like fro99er is making too big of a deal out of what I perceive to be a pretty throwaway comment from bella in 51. Like I don't think "bork/GL interaction is not S-S" isthatstrong of a conclusion, and I can pretty easily envision worlds where town!Bella makes that remark.
bork, I feel you in that fro99er believes in the logic in his meta push on bella, but I don't think you should conflate that with whether he believes in the conclusion, and I think that's the beauty of it. If he's scum here, he can start with a flawed assumption ("bella jumped to a conclusion early"), then use a valid, well-sourced argument about her play that he honestly believes ("town Bella doesn't jump to conclusions early") to make a convincing case and a plausible scumread. It's something I recognize in my own scum play, I try to drum up cases that are plausibly and logically sound and then sell them with conviction to mask the fact that I already know the conclusion is wrong."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I don't really agree that it would do scum!Fro99er "no good" to push bella early. The most important thing for scum early is to look like they're sorting the game and to break up any potential town-blocs that are forming, and if you think bella could become a strong town voice then it's helpful to discredit her and start sowing seeds of doubt early on. And who knows, maybe a bunch of people would sheep you on this logic and either you'd get an early mislynch or you could flip it around where you start to see her as town and instead direct your attention to those who jumped on an early bella wagon.In post 172, Fro99er wrote:then vote me, not sbf
Here's some wifom, but why would I push bella if I were scum? It does me no good to push her when I know she's going to initially be paranoid of me as town (because she always is when she's town). Especially after the only other time I rolled scum while bella was town was the very first time I played with her, and I pushed her there. My best play as scum is to buddy her, make her feel comfortable with me, and go from there. It does a scum version of me no good to push bella here at this stage of the game.
Also, why are you townreading eddie? I don't really see a reason to townread him yet.
I'm townreading eddie cause I feel he's not playing with an agenda and he's been rather transparent in posts like 94, 99, 116
See this kind of thing just reads to me as scummy, lazy play. It's not inherently scummy to have suspicion on someone but not vote them. I currently feel I would gain more information and move the game to a better state by joining eddie on SBF.In post 173, Fro99er wrote:Add GL to the list of people willing to scumread me but not vote me."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
so I don't really expect everyone else to agree with me on this, but 150 rang town for me for a few reasons:In post 189, borkjerfkin wrote:I'd like to pick your brain about the bolded
specifically I don't think TTTT has done really anything but throw out some vaguely reasoned townreads and asked a couple questions; was surprised to see him on your top tier
lowell I just don't really have a good handle on; I find him opaque and don't empathize with the reasoning behind most of his reads
- the strong SS townread seems unnatural to come from scum - I don't think SS has done anything especially obvtown this game to force a TR, and I would expect scum to try to keep her mislynchable if she's town. I also don't see much of an incentive for a scum!TTTT to try to defend/TR a town!SS here either because she's also not receiving a lot of attention/wagon pressure. Basically, I don't think it's an angle that scum!TTTT would have taken with his reads here, especially this early.
- he mentions being "nervous" about fro99er which I imagine is coming from the same suspicion/issues I had with his posts, before I had come to the thread to bring those up
- he actually doesn't give a read on you when he answered the question. I think someone operating from a scum mindset would be more likely to throw in a read on the person questioning them, instead it reads to me like he's in a mindset of genuinely giving you info to work with.
Lowell I wouldn't say I have a good handle on either, just mostly feels like he's legitimately trying to game-solve. I'd say him reversing his read on you from 65 to 114 is the thing that vibes town to me the most, but it's definitely a weaker read."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
what specifically about his play in that game reminds you of this game? What other games did you skim? And why go through the motion of explaining this just to shelve him at a nullread?In post 199, Sobolev Space wrote:On a more serious note, I've skimmed through Frog's iso in a couple other games and I'm not seeing this as scum. His play in Mini 1734 (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=63822) reminds me a lot of his this game (although I haven't read it too in depth). Null for now."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I will say that the reasoning for my TR on TTTT is dependent on SS actually being town. A SS scumflip would swing me to taking a harder look at TTTT again. Eddie asked him about why he was townreading SS, I'd like to see him answer that"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
also in thinking about it more I feel this setup incentivizes scum to either lay the foundation for a strong and consistent TR on their partner on D3 or bus them prior to D3, so I guess we should all be on the look out for that"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
see I generally agree with this, but I don't think SS would be the townie that TTTT would do that with. She's been pretty low key and under the radar. There's no lynch to strongly direct away, and there's no massive SS presence that needs to be buddied/pocketed/townread.In post 212, Eddie Cane wrote:obviously both alignments do it - i do it - but I typically see scum being the ones to call someone town out of seemingly nothing. it gets that person on their side, while seemingly looking townie for directing the lynch strongly away from someone. I'm neutral on tttt, but I disagree with that being a good reason to town read someone."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Well, Fro99er has since pointed out that he didn't say that people on his "list" are scummy, which makes me wonder why he's even keeping it. Just pointing out that players scumread him but are not voting him doesn't give any actual insight into his thoughts on those players. Like, he's noted/implied that Lowell, TTTT, and I have all done this, but we can't all be scum.In post 215, Bellaphant wrote:
I think Fro99er has shown he is the opposite of intellectually lazy - I want to come back to a poost from him in a second. Can you expand a little on your last sentence?In post 168, GuiltyLion wrote:
It is absolutely meant to keep suspicion on. I didn't like the naked vote and I didn't like her response to me, I see no reason to townread SBF yet. This thought from you feels intellectually lazy, as if you're operating from a framework where casting suspicion on anyone is automatically scummy.In post 107, Fro99er wrote:Now that I reread it, the second sentence looks like trying to keep suspicion on. The first sentence also kinda looks like GL read into what Bork was trying to get at and answered accordingly.
It's possible that he's fishing for reactions/responses to his "list" and using this to make reads, but he hasn't been open about that so far. So I'm saying that just pointing out that you have this list, and yet not offering actual reads about it, is lazy. At best, he's holding back.
yes, say what about pre-associative before a flip. I just explained that my reason for townreading TTTT is that I don't think scum!TTTT would have made that townread on a town!SS. It follows that if SS is scum, that reasoning does not apply and it's therefore possible TTTT could be scum with her.In post 215, Bellaphant wrote:
ummm say what about pre-associatives before a flip? Can you explain this a little?In post 210, GuiltyLion wrote:I will say that the reasoning for my TR on TTTT is dependent on SS actually being town. A SS scumflip would swing me to taking a harder look at TTTT again. Eddie asked him about why he was townreading SS, I'd like to see him answer that"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
but Fro99er has already said in this game that he uses wifom as either alignment. I'm having a hard time believing that you think one similar use of wifom in a town game would therefore make him town in this one - but then again, you didn't even say he was town (see point below).In post 219, Sobolev Space wrote:
His focus on meta reads and (to a lesser degree) wifom.In post 209, GuiltyLion wrote:what specifically about his play in that game reminds you of this game?
I'd like to see him comment on this.
but, null is not a read? You literally made no conclusion about what you think his alignment is. I'm asking why bother to post in that case, you're citing evidence for the sake of evidence without actually giving us something to work with in regards to your read on him.In post 219, Sobolev Space wrote:
Because it was information that contributed to my read on him?In post 209, GuiltyLion wrote:And why go through the motion of explaining this just to shelve him at a nullread?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
In post 222, Sobolev Space wrote:GL's last few posts are atrocious.
What about them is "atrocious"? Do you disagree with my points, or do you think I am scummy for making them?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Well I disagree, I saw you making a lazy meta comment and I wanted to dive into it more. Why did you think they were pointless?
It's not that I don't understand, it's that I didn't believe there was any scum motivation to it.In post 231, Sobolev Space wrote: "I don't understand why TTTT is strongly TR-ing SS so he's probably town"
I mean you just saw how I did it with EccentricLemon in our Newbie Game, I recognized people were going to scumread her/push on her so I decided to townread her and it kept her alive to endgame.In post 231, Sobolev Space wrote: How on earth would scum town reading some rando direct away a lynch? Who do you think scum would choose to fake TR instead of me?
If I were scum at the time of TTTT's 150 I'd probably oddball TR someone like Fro99er or Eddie (assuming that they're town) instead.
The thing I didn't like was that I got the impression from Fro99er initially that he was calling it out as if it's scummy behavior, and I didn't think that logic held up. But he made it a point to clarify that he wasn't, so presumably he agrees.In post 232, Bellaphant wrote:@gl, do you think he even thinks it's scummy at this point? i mean, part of me gets his frustration about throwing shade (also, he called me not town and didn't vote me, so...) but
i agree, the comments would be better with clearer reads attached.
would town!ttt make that read on town!ss though? it just feels an arse-backwards way of looking at it? I mean, I'm town-reading ss anyway...
on my TTTT townread, in a game where 6/8 players (FMPOV) are town, a strong example of an absence of scumminess is an indicator of towniness IMO. I just don't see a reason scum!TTTT would have taken that angle, and I even already said I don't expect everyone to agree with me on that. This whole conversation started because bork wanted me to explain why I had him in that top tier."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
like, if I were scum in TTTT's shoes and also assuming that I knew Fro99er and Eddie were town (and SS too I guess), and bork asked me for reads, then I'd probably townread one of them instead. SS seems more mislynchable than Fro99er would be, and Eddie at that point seemed too mislynchable where you'd probably "look more town" and buddy him by townreading him. It's kinda hard for me to think about it or explain beyond that since I'm now making boatloads of assumptions and trying to think from a perspective that I don't really have.In post 234, Bellaphant wrote:explain '
If I were scum at the time of TTTT's 150 I'd probably oddball TR someone like Fro99er or Eddie (assuming that they're town) instead.' to me?
i have mixed feelings about the last past of your post. so it's mainly because they specifically tr ss over anyone else there?
The main point is just yeah, I don't think scum!TTTT would have so strongly TR'd a town!SS there, I don't see any scum benefit to it. It would be narrowing his lynchpool without appearing to achieve much towncred for it. Which is why I want to give him towncred for it."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I think this post from another game might help explain it some too.
In that game Creature had said he thought scum was in a group of 4 people (although none of them were scum ), which I townread him for at the time since I liked where his head was at and I didn't see any scum benefit to narrowing his lynchpool that quickly to those four players by page 2. Blackstar started pushing him on it, and I made the point in that post:
"What does scum!Creature gain from narrowing his scumpool to 4 people so quickly? If he has to change his mind on something later to get a mislynch, that just makes him look bad."
which is similar reasoning to what I'm thinking here, I just see absolutely no gain for scum!TTTT to make a strong townread on SS there. The only scum motivation I could see for that read is if they're paired together and he's trying to promote townreads on her and give himself a history of townreading her so that he can plausibly avoid voting her later in the game on D3. But it's more likely that TTTT is just town than it is he's scum with SS, ergo, I think he's town."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
In post 242, borkjerfkin wrote:
Actually wait, if you're calling this an 'oddball' TR that ostensibly scum would do why is SS [that you have described as an unconventional townread] any differentIn post 233, GuiltyLion wrote:If I were scum at the time of TTTT's 150 I'd probably oddball TR someone like Fro99er or Eddie (assuming that they're town) instead.
eh SS was asking me about how townreading a rando would keep the lynch off of them, so I gave an example of that. The reason I feel this scenario (TTTT townreading SS) is different is because I didn't think SS was immediately likely as a D1 lynch candidate, whereas my memory of that Newbie game was EL was definitely mislynchable early. I probably shouldn't have even answered that question from SS about who I'd expect scum to TR instead, it's not really relevant to my main thought which is I don't see why scum!TTTT would townread her in particular there.In post 243, borkjerfkin wrote:
Ok yeah you're literally giving an example of you doing the thing as scum that you're townreading TTTT (at your highest tier) for doingIn post 233, GuiltyLion wrote:I mean you just saw how I did it with EccentricLemon in our Newbie Game, I recognized people were going to scumread her/push on her so I decided to townread her and it kept her alive to endgame.
?
and I didn't really think all of this through to this deep of a level when I first read TTTT's post, I feel I'm getting bogged down in people asking me to explain every ounce of my thought process for an idea that I didn't think was gonna be immediately intuitive to everyone anyway"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
basically I guess like,
a. when you're scum and you take a hard townread on someone, you're removing them from being a wagon you can be on, this is usually not good for you since it narrows your options and so you usually want to be careful about it and plan ahead
b. however sometimes it's beneficial when you think the wagon will be strong without you, because then you can get some towncred if the mislynch goes through, and you can push your "desired lynch" instead for multiple days while townies remain fixated on the shiny thing (what I was trying to point to as an example of what I did with EL in the Newbie game)
c. so when it's someone who hasn't really attracted any attention or scumreads whatsoever, you don't really get the benefit of b, so I don't see why scum!TTTT would have done it with hypothetical town!SS there. I was trying to point to hypothetical town!Eddie instead as an example of where the b) scenario seems plausible"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
don't have time for a real post today but just checking in to acknowledge that horrendous SBF case on me. I'll destroy it tomorrow"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I actually like most of Fro99er's page 11 posting.
But let's get to this
What was awkward about them? And are you calling it "LAMIST" literally just because I said "I'm town this time"? Because that's anIn post 288, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:Opening posts were awkward and LAMIST.extreeeemelyweak case for LAMIST, and it looks to me like you just wanted to put the "scummy buzzword" in.
Where did I even act like it was an "authentic scumread"? I saw someone lurking and not playing the game and I sheeped a townlean and voted them. I didn't write up a bunch of buzzwords and crap about how I thought you were scum. Like, this is something where you're describing my play but not actually pointing to why that makes me scum.In post 288, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:His SR on this slot lacks any semblance of authenticity and he basically just followed Cane.
I feel this is the most disingenuous point of all. All of my "back-seat theorizing" and "hypothesis about what I would do as Y alignment" is entirely because people kept repeatedly pressing me onIn post 288, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:Most of his content consists of back-seat theorizing and ad-hoc hypothesis about what he or another would do as Y alignment, rather than actual hunting and sorting.how I had attempted to sort TTTT. I'm answering multiple questions from eddie/bork/bella in those posts to explain my thought process and here you're pretending like I'm not doing anything else in between. I think anyone who was looking at my ISO with genuine intentions would see that I am making efforts to sort and probe people - take for example, my vote on you - and the way you're just handwaving a shitty summary of my play here reads extremely uncharitable to me.
That said, I actually do agree with this, so the fact that you're saying it is throwing a bit of a wrench in my reads.In post 288, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:I like Space's initial response to GL, but the followup is too superficial and then quickly written off. I haven't seen the slot attempting to sort anyone in a serious way and the times it has given the appearance of doing so have been devoid of what I like to call the fire to find scum."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
VOTE: LowellIn post 279, Lowell wrote:Scumvibes from GL, not sure how everyone is seeing that guy as town. Opportunistic as whoa. Continued scumvibes from frogger, who looks like he's trying to pocket everyone.
I don't think town!Lowell would call me "opportunistic" here. It's simply not a meaningful or accurate description of my play, especially when the game is still early/halfway through D1, so I'm having a hard time seeing where he could be honestly coming from with that perspective.
This line also strikes me as scummy, Lowell doesn't operate in null reads and uncertainty. The last line reads to me like it's designed to make people think he's genuinely attempting to sort me or perhaps also to keep me townreading him. Didn't work.In post 303, Lowell wrote:From the beginning and his half-assed pocketing attempt on SS this guy has been slimy. I could squint and see null, but the townreads on this slot are appalling."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I also reject the idea that my interactions with SS read anything like a "pocketing attempt". I started the game by pushing on SS and trying to get her to post or explain herself when she made low effort posts, and I have not once moved her above a null/null-scummy read. So it's not clear to me how Lowell could see that as pocketing, unless there's some new meta where repeatedly questioning and scumreading someone you played with last game is the best way to "pocket" them."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
sorry for the oncoming wall, I'm trying to keep this concise and hitting the important points
and my point is that you've actually made NO ARGUMENT here, except paraphrasing my posts and assuming that I'm scum posting them.In post 336, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:
8 and 36 are both "me? scum? no way!", and your attempt to deflect this by calling the use of an abbreviation scummy is in fact a maneuver commonly used by scum to discredit those who bring cases against them.In post 305, GuiltyLion wrote:And are you calling it "LAMIST" literally just because I said "I'm town this time"? Because that's anextreeeemelyweak case for LAMIST, and it looks to me like you just wanted to put the "scummy buzzword" in., not as a way to succintly represent an argument, and in either case it isn't the word itself that is the issue.Buzzwords are actually only scummy when they're used in absence of a real argument
You're arguing that it's scummy to not have a sincere and thorough scumread 160 posts in the game, which I find hard to believe. I had no townvibes whatsoever from your opening two posts, saw no evidence of game-solving, wanted you to get pressured/wagoned. That's entirely different from saying "I am very confident that SBF is scum", which feels like the arbitrary and disingenuous standard that you'ree trying to impose on me.In post 336, SweetBlueFlowers wrote: Thank you for proving my point. I am your sole scum read in 169 and yet there was clearly no sincerity behind it. Now you are attempting to distance yourself from your prior stance while casting suspicion on my slot for unrelated content, also known as backpedalling and shading.
also @bork the reason I had fro99er higher during that readslist was because I could see him ambiguously as either alignment, whereas I had no sense of towniness from SBF at all. But the more important point is that SBF is trying to equate my "lack of any sense of townread" into a "your scumread is fake", when there's a massive difference between "scumreading this person by PoE/not seeing them be town" vs "scumreading this person because you think their posts were actively scummy". SBF is acting like I'm scum for not operating in the latter, when I had been operating in the former.
Your radar for Town motivation is either miscalibrated or not being used in this game, sorry. Talking to my townreads to try to get them to understand/townread me is not "purposeless".In post 336, SweetBlueFlowers wrote: I am actually describing the things that I find scum motivated, contraposed with what I would find Town motivated. Your content has no significant Town motivation that I can detect. Your content is largely devoid of game-advancing material and is full of material that I find ultimately purposeless and distracting.
Except I didn't everIn post 336, SweetBlueFlowers wrote: Your way of justifying your reads has been so opaque and theoretical that the only way to find fault with them is by attacking their logic, which would be playing to your game by getting caught up in tortuous argumentation with no real end-point, and they are entirely devoid of actual serious comment on play in THIS game. They are superficial. Your vote on me was, as you have said, a sheep of your townlean. You did not back it up with anything, as Cane did. Your vote isn't even on me anymore.wantpeople to argue with my townreads, but I will always respond to questions about them. If you seriously think I was actively trying to draw out that discussion about my townread on TTTT then you should go back and read that entire exchange again. Every post I made with "theory" was in response to people asking me to explain myself. like I fucking knew as I was getting more and more drawn into answering all of the questions that someone was then going to try to push me on this. That's why I kept saying "i don't expect people to agree", "it's probably not intuitive", etc etc.
And so what my vote isn't on you anymore? Why does that matter?
No you didn't, if you called it opportunistic please show me where you did. And this entire section reads to me like you care more about "scoring points" in the argument about my alignment more than honestly and openly assessing my play and my alignment.In post 336, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:I called you opportunistic, albeit without using the actual word, and you stated that my description of your play was essentially accurate ("you're describing my play"), if mistaken in the resulting conclusions. You have caught yourself in a trap.
My read on Lowell changed because of his continued scumread on me for weak reasons. I changed the read. Why do you think that makes me scum, why is that something that cannot come from Town?In post 336, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:Despite finding fault with every part of my case against you and calling me scummy, you are now voting the slot that was previously a townlean over the slot that was previously a scumread.
a) I can and will put my vote wherever the hell I want, thank youIn post 336, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:You cannot keep your vote on me because by doing so Town's focus remains on our exchange, which is something scum!GL would never want but which town!GL would have no problem with. Again, you display no sincerity in your desire to sort slots.
and b) I will continue responding to every single post you make, so don't give me this bullshit about "not wanting focus on our exchange"."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
also it's generally just absolutely rich that someone with 5 posts total in the game is accusing me for not having "game advancing content" when I've been making an effort to interact with nearly every player"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
like SBF's argument boils down to
1) GL voted me but didn't believe it
2) GL moved his vote off of me when I pushed back on him
3) he must be doing this because he doesn't want attention on me calling him out
1) is because it's early and I usually don't have much conviction in my scumreads early unless I find something extremely compelling, which hasn't happened this game
2) was due to the fact that I hated Lowell's reasons for scumreading/voting me and I did think SBF made a good point about SS which made me question whether they are operating from a town mindset
3) is just assumptions and completely made up"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
the unfortunate thing is the wagon didn't even take off tbhIn post 364, Eddie Cane wrote:I am not tring gl.
in his defense for that particular part though, you (sfb) had next to 0 content a decent way into the game. wagoning that is fine, especially if he townread me at the time of voting.
like it's kinda strange to me that we haven't hit an L-1 yet"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I like L-1s not for the claims but for the immediate threat of hammer"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I don't have time to give a proper response to SBF yet but the thing I hate about both their substantiated push/posts on me is that it seems like they're both built on axiomatically assuming that I'm scum first, then prescribing scum motive to everything I do, and then many underhanded attempts to dictate/control my behavior and frame me in a box where anything I do is scummy. Like first she said I was avoiding her by moving my vote, but then when I strongly bit back at that (because it's an incredibly obnoxious thing to say imo) then she says of course I can't avoid her because I'm forced to respond to her. It's like the motive is to bully me into submission/"flailing" rather than to game-solve. I almost feel like Iwanther to be scum even moreso than I actually think she is, because it's a really off-putting style of playing the game and if I'm lynched I don't see how she won't be the subsequent lynch.
I'll give her argument itself more attention later but I'd like to know if people are sensing these vibes as well. And I'm still good with a Lowell lynch, totally agree that he "sounds town" but isn't actually doing anything town. His response to me about calling everyone "opportunistic", while funny, is a total dodge over the point that I was making."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
oh and @SBF if you feel I misrepped your argument, the pro-town thing to do would be to clarify exactly where and what I misrepped instead of just calling it a misrep and attacking me. Townies usually getindignantwhen they feel misrepped and make it a point to explain what exactly what they said and meant, but she just seemed to take on a bravado instead and used it to attack me further"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Yeah, I played two games with Lowell previously (High Risk High Reward and One Night Ultimate Werewolf (not really mafia)), and in neither of them did Lowell ever say something was null or he could understand null reads, he always came out strong in every post. He actually called me "opportunistic" in HRHR too, but moved off onto actual scum shortly afterIn post 394, Fro99er wrote:
Can you explain this?In post 306, GuiltyLion wrote:Lowell doesn't operate in null reads and uncertainty.
I'm assuming this is a meta-based read."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
yeah Lowell also made this point as well, I misread it at the time and thought he was saying he could see me as null himselfIn post 428, borkjerfkin wrote:he could squint and see null = "he could understand someone having a null read on that person with the iso that had been presented""I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I still think it was a strange thing to say, but less strange than if he were calling me null directly. Still scumreading him because I don't even understand why he is scumreading me and his open declaration that he won't re-evaluate seems more like angling for my mislynch rather than trying to gain information from his push.In post 430, borkjerfkin wrote:does that color your read at all?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
like I do want to try to revisit SBF's posts again with a cooler head later because at the very least she is giving reasons for pushing on me that I can try to understand. Lowell has no substance behind his push at all."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I could get behind a Bella wagon
Fro99er / Eddie looks very much like a TvT to me, and the Lowell comment on Fro99er in 524 just doesn't ring true at all. I'm like 100% in agreement with what bork said in 503
I'm here
town: {bork, eddie, Fro99er, TTTT}
meh: {SS, SBF, Bella}
scum: {Lowell}
response to the SBF case forthcoming"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
In post 379, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:In post 361, GuiltyLion wrote:You're arguing that it's scummy to not have a sincere and thorough scumread 160 posts in the game, which I find hard to believe. I had no townvibes whatsoever from your opening two posts, saw no evidence of game-solving, wanted you to get pressured/wagoned. That's entirely different from saying "I am very confident that SBF is scum", which feels like the arbitrary and disingenuous standard that you'ree trying to impose on me.No townvibes = null. Significant scum vibes = SR. A SR is literally "I am confident this slot is scum". This is extremely straight-forward. There is meaningful contradiction in your stances and you can't talk your way out of this no matter how far you bend over backwards.1 )
In post 361, GuiltyLion wrote:Your radar for Town motivation is either miscalibrated or not being used in this game, sorry. Talking to my townreads to try to get them to understand/townread me is not "purposeless".I find your manner of discourse ultimately purposeless as the information provided by the exchanges does little to nothing to sort alignments according to any method of scumhunting I understand and it is far too early in the game to begin digesting reads with mutual TRs in the effort to reach compromise. There is simply no way to be sure enough in your reads on Day 1 for this and it is nonsensical to begin focusing on compromise when most of us have not even solidified our reads yet in the first place. Talking in this manner is, however, an excellent way to be TRed without actually producing content that advances the game state or roots out any scum. In short, your content lacks any meaningful Town motivation that I can detect.2 )
In post 361, GuiltyLion wrote:And so what my vote isn't on you anymore? Why does that matter?Because it makes no sense to move your vote off your SR immediately after finding fault in all of their content, and it makes less sense to vote the slot you previously townleaned because of an argument that your SR also made. If you weren't aware that I was calling you opportunistic I can only assume you were selectively reading my post.3a )
In post 361, GuiltyLion wrote:No you didn't, if you called it opportunistic please show me where you did. And this entire section reads to me like you care more about "scoring points" in the argument about my alignment more than honestly and openly assessing my play and my alignment.288: "His SR on this slot lacks any semblance of authenticity and he basically just followed Cane."3b )
In post 361, GuiltyLion wrote:My read on Lowell changed because of his continued scumread on me for weak reasons. I changed the read. Why do you think that makes me scum, why is that something that cannot come from Town?See above and my previous post for the answer.3c )
In post 361, GuiltyLion wrote:a) I can and will put my vote wherever the hell I want, thank you
and b) I will continue responding to every single post you make, so don't give me this bullshit about "not wanting focus on our exchange".Yes, you're forced to, given that I called you out. Changing your vote in the way you did strongly suggests that you wanted attention elsewhere, however. I don't believe that you lost your scumread on me after my post and gained a scumread on Lowell strong enough to warrant moving the vote, I believe that you moved your vote onto an easier target.4 )
In post 363, GuiltyLion wrote:like SBF's argument boils down to
1) GL voted me but didn't believe it
2) GL moved his vote off of me when I pushed back on him
3) he must be doing this because he doesn't want attention on me calling him out
1) is because it's early and I usually don't have much conviction in my scumreads early unless I find something extremely compelling, which hasn't happened this game
2) was due to the fact that I hated Lowell's reasons for scumreading/voting me and I did think SBF made a good point about SS which made me question whether they are operating from a town mindset
3) is just assumptions and completely made upThis is a pretty sad attempt at a misrep, honestly. The fact that you're appealing to others in this way is highly suspect.5 )is not really how I play the game and make reads on D1, sorry. My axiom is more townvibes = less likely to be scum. I put you lower because you were not posting and had absolutely zero townvibes, whereas while some things Fro99er said pinged me on a gut level, I also thought there were some possible townvibes as well.1 )
again, this seems like more of a playstyle issue. D1 for me is about nailing down some solid townreads without letting any scum into my personal town-block. In a game with 6 town and 2 scum, it's much easier to correctly find town than scum, and I find playstyles like yours (tunnel relentlessly on one player) to be extremely counterproductive as it only requires 1 or 2 misreads to suddenly put yourself in LYLO and with no foundation to work with and understand the other players. I also disagree that "wanting to be TRd" is scummy, everyone wants to be TR'd regardless of alignment. I think it's bad play to be mislynchable, especially in a setup like this one with no PRs.2 )
Why is it so hard for you to understand that I actively found Lowell's posting much scummier than yours? That doesn't mean I suddenly townread you, it just means I wanted a Lowell wagon3a )even harder.
And I don't see that description as being "opportunistic". Sheeping eddie on an early L-3 wagon is opportunistic how? It's not like you were in immediate danger of being lynched.3b )
You kinda ignored the point of the question here, which is why aren't you considering any town motivation behind my posting? I get why you can frame it in a scum narrative, but I'm missing any evidence that you're genuinely evaluating my play as possibly coming from town too.3c )
See point 3a.4 )
I said this before, but if you're gonna call something a misrep, I'd like you to explain exactly what you feel was misrepresented.5 )"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
also, HERE is a good example of a misrep. The "null point" is honestly the least important and weakest part of my 'case' on Lowell (I also don't really feel it's a case, just a few succinct damning points). What Lowell omitted and ignored are the two better reasons that I already gave in thread:In post 523, Lowell wrote:His entire case on me amounts to "Lowell thinks in extremes and said someone is null. CONTRADICTION!" I can make his case against me better than he can, and it only took me one sentence.
1) I don't believe town!Lowell would consider my early D1 play - at the time of posting 279 - to be genuinely "opportunistic". I made one vote on SBF.
2) the description of me "pocketing SS" makes no sense either, and reads more like Lowell is trying to frame my behavior than interpret it"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
WhyIn post 584, Lowell wrote:Bro, of course I'm trying to frame your behavior. I'm trying to get you lynched and no one listens to me. And yes, your vote on SBF was opportunistic. S/he had done nothing whatsoever at that point. Attacking ais the definition of opportunistic. Or the definition of something. Whatever, it's bad.non-factor who can't fight backnotpressure someone who had done nothing whatsoever at that point? How do you suggest one should sort them instead?
And why do you assume she couldn't fight back, especially given that she clearly did fight back when she did start posting more content?
The reason I think 'opportunistic' doesn't make sense as a claim is because SBF was not a substantial wagon and was not in danger of being lynched. Call it 'lazy' or 'easy', sure, like I guess those would be relevant criticisms, but it's absolutely not 'opportunistic'."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
what are your thoughts on the bella wagon? Cause that one is likely to go through, and you've had her at null/town for the few times you've mentioned her, and the wagon consists of your top two townreads (bork/SBF), Lowell (another TR), and TTTT (who you had above sobolev/fro99er in your last reads list).In post 651, Eddie Cane wrote:we only have a day left and it looks like the frogger lynch is going nowhere. anyone wanna sell me elsewhere or join me? I'm not voting Lowell or bork today.
Is this a good wagon? Is it being pushed by scum?
It's strange to me that you'd make this post and not comment at all on the leading wagon."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
also I generally agree with Fro99er's point about Eddie's SBF townread being unsubstantiated and I'm trying to parse whether I feel his aggressive deflection about being spammed with too many questions and phone posting was genuine town frustration. If bella is a mislynch I'd say Eddie is the most likely candidate for a scum off the wagon.
also I re-ISO'd SS and I feel better about her than I did in my last readslist, I still feel she's been sitting back a bit in this game but I don't think she's playing with an agenda"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I'm a little skeeved that my wagon flipped so quickly to Bella but I also don't really have a problem with a Bella lynch. and I'd definitely hammer her once we wrap up this day. If she flips scum I'd say it's more likely that she got bussed given how quickly the wagon sprang up"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
In post 694, borkjerfkin wrote:if I were the Metaing sort I would point out that GL looks very different here than in that gameIn post 36, GuiltyLion wrote:basically my plan on dealing with S_S is if she's town she should probably recognize quickly that this is not my scumgame, so if she scumreads me then she's confirmed scum. If she townreads me then she could be either alignment still, but at least it'll be one fewer person to push a mislynch on me"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I/we don't have the time for me to break down everything that happened in the 7 or so pages that I was gone, I agree that SBF's frustration felt genuine but I'm not sure yet that I want to conclude that it's alignment-indicative frustration. However I think it's more likely scum is in {Bella, Lowell, Eddie}, interactions between all three are pretty bad
^Eddie did you ever respond to this? I don't remember seeing anything from you about it. I want you to talk about the Bella wagonIn post 652, GuiltyLion wrote:
what are your thoughts on the bella wagon? Cause that one is likely to go through, and you've had her at null/town for the few times you've mentioned her, and the wagon consists of your top two townreads (bork/SBF), Lowell (another TR), and TTTT (who you had above sobolev/fro99er in your last reads list).In post 651, Eddie Cane wrote:we only have a day left and it looks like the frogger lynch is going nowhere. anyone wanna sell me elsewhere or join me? I'm not voting Lowell or bork today.
Is this a good wagon? Is it being pushed by scum?
It's strange to me that you'd make this post and not comment at all on the leading wagon.
VOTE: Bella"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I absolutely did want to go to night. I was on a ski trip last weekend so I didn't have much time to play and 30+ pages is plenty for a D1.In post 903, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:873 - He just wants to go to Night. He doesn't care about this Town. town!GL would be serious about finding scum right now, he would know that Bellaphant doesn't give off serious enough scumvibes to just lock that hammer in without discussion, the reason he was willing to hammer in the first place doesn't even apply anymore, there's just nothing there.
I don't know what you're talking about "lock that hammer in without discussion", there was like a day left until deadline and Bella seemed like the consensus lynch. I would've rather had Lowell but people were avoiding the wagon.
Also, self-meta and all, but scum!GL is much more aggressive about "finding scum" than town!GL. As town I mostly just try to steer clear of obviously bad lynches and lynch outside of a townpool. As scum I usually try a lot harder to make my votes/cases seem justified. It's definitely something for me to improve regarding my scumplay, but you should look at the Party Mafia Newbie game with Sobolev referenced/linked in this thread and see the difference. I don't always "powertown" and I can link plenty of examples where I don't have strong scumvibes from anyone on D1. In fact, even in the Undertale game you linked as an example of me being "powertown", my D2 play was very cautious and uncertain.
As for this post:
is frankly horrific play for someone who acts like they know so much about mafia. I'm town and if you're town then this is a guaranteed auto-loss.In post 932, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:Here's what we're going to do guys. We're lynching me today. Tomorrow you quicklynch GL and win. No questions asked. That simple. This is the quickest solution and I don't feel like sitting around watching you guys get cold feet on an obvscum.Regardless of your alignment, there's absolutely NO reason not to push for my lynch instead of trying to get yourself lynched first, and the AtE/WIFOM of voting yourself is useless and insanely anti-town. It's not even like you were already a top lynch candidate for today and you resigned yourself to your own wagon, which happens sometimes, but instead you're starting off the day with this shit? Grow up.
Also, if you're back to scumreading me, then I want to know what the "towntell" you claimed to see in 569 was and why you decided it no longer applies.
VOTE: Lowell"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
a) I find acting like you have 100% certainty obnoxiously unbecoming in mafia, and generally more pro-scum than townIn post 937, Eddie Cane wrote:GL, if you're certain someone's scum in this setup then day 3 is the optimal time to lynch them so you don't need to find a partner. thst said, I have no intention to lynch sbf because I'm fairly sure she's town, but it makes sense if she's 100% confident you're scum. I'm not, so I want her to convince me, and regardless I'm lynching someome besides her because she's my strongest living town read.
b) The "grow up" remark is more due to her "I'm going back to prodges" and "I don't feel like sitting around" bullshit. I guess mathematically it's better to lynch me D3 than D2 if you think I'm scum, but she should still be pushing to lynchoutside herselfin all universes today"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Assuming that you're town, I don't think this follows at all. When I'm scum I almost always ignore and kill outside of TvTs, the constant arguing/tunneling is great for coasting during the day, and killing one of the townies is often taking away a distraction/potential mislynch. Plus bork was the obvious NK last night, he was never getting lynched this game.In post 951, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:The fact that I didn't die last night confirms GL as scum. If GL were Town the scumteam would have NKed me to incriminate GL for any easy mislynch.
Also, at the idea that I'm an easy mislynch. I think in all of my games here I can remember 2, maybe 3 times when I've been mislynched."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
In this setup I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be - if you really do believe you have two scum candidates but you're more sure in one than the other, it could make sense to lynch the more confident read on D3, no?In post 952, TTTT wrote:@SBF
from your POV...
GL is confscum
I'm POE'd scum based on scum!GL
...and you vote me?
bad bad bad"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
also SBF if you are choosing to ignore this, then I'd like you to explicitly state that you are ignoring it.In post 936, GuiltyLion wrote:Also, if you're back to scumreading me, then I want to know what the "towntell" you claimed to see in 569 was and why you decided it no longer applies."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
because otherwise I'm gonna keep hounding you"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
yah fun fact just crunched the numbers and it's only happened 3 timesIn post 954, GuiltyLion wrote:Also, at the idea that I'm an easy mislynch. I think in all of my games here I can remember 2, maybe 3 times when I've been mislynched.
Word Sneak 2 - got death tunneled by scum!RC
How to Get Away with Murder - shouldn't have happened since I was tracker, but got turbolynched within 1 RL day on D2
Grey Flag - was voting scum in LYLO, got hammered by scum off of an awful vote by RachMarie
point is, town!GL is not easy to mislynch and I don't plan on that happening in this game either, and if you were as familiar with my meta as you pretend to be then you should know this too."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I was hoping to see fro99er respond first before jumping in"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Eddie can you go into more depth as to why you are townreading Lowell? I don't really understand why this is indicative of town alignment, and most of your ISO is pretty null on Lowell except for a few points yesterday where you called him lock town. I only skimmed it just now but I'm not really grokking your read thereIn post 917, Eddie Cane wrote:if bella flips town I still think Lowell is solid town. if bella flips town that means frogger is again in my scumpool (since he's lock town with a bella scum flip in my eyes). Lowell voting frogger at a time everyone was ignoring me looks good for him, and he created the wagon even if it didn't go anywhere. he left only after it was clearly going nowhere to go onto another sr. Bella made sense as a vote for him based on his progression."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
holy hell if you're town here I'm going to force feed the crow down your throat as soon as this game ends. The arrogance is so annoying. Why can't town ever say "I don't get mislynched" as town? You're just asserting shit and not backing it up, there's NOTHING scum-indicative about pointing out that I'm hard to lynch as townIn post 986, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:GL's "I've never been mislynched" is yet another scumclaim. The amount of times Town says this kind of thing? No. GL already knows everyone's alignment and his posts are soaked in it.
also I never said "I've never been mislynched" I said I'm rarely mislynched because YOU said I'm an "easy mislynch". jesus
Yah why don't you explain this one cause IMO they're the top two candidates for scum.In post 986, SweetBlueFlowers wrote:Lowell and Eddie are utterly obvious Town."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"