Micro 715: Friendly Neighbor 6 (Game Over)

[Alchemist21]

Pregame vote: Gamma

Hey, it worked last time.

[Alchemist21]

I love how TB gave us DAYS to confirm and most of us ended up confirming in the first few hours anyway.

[Alchemist21]

We lynched scum you though. It was a step in the right direction.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

This vote's not coming off until the Rayquaza avatar comes back.

[Alchemist21]

Again? How many times has that happened?

[Alchemist21]

The fuck is this? I didn't mind having Gamma stay at L-2 but L-1 in RVS is pretty unncecessary, and the claim is just god awful. The silver lining is that Gamma is likely Town since I think scum would have at least waited for intent before claiming on page 2.

UNVOTE: Gamma

I'm really not sure what to make of Flubber's vote. It would be dumb to draw that kind of attention as scum but at the same time he probably didn't actually think the claim would come out of it (which would also be true if he's Town though).

@Flubber, why did you put Gamma at L-1?

And @Everyone, can we not do this again and force a practical massclaim D1 in the first 5 or 10 pages?

[Alchemist21]

Is this normal here?

It's not normal for this site, but Gamma said it's the second time it's happened to him in a micro so I hope it's not becoming a thing. Also part of why I think Gamma's Town here is that he didn't use this chance to attack anyone. I think scum Gamma uses this as a chance to get "frustrated" at having this happen again and start attacking someone on his wagon as scum. Like I think he'd be a lot more defensive here instead of just rolling over and taking it if he's scum.

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist, why doesn't 27 look like frustration to you?

Frustration means fighting back against the lynch. He was about to just let the lynch happen.

[Alchemist21]

Is this normal here?

It's not normal for this site, but Gamma said it's the second time it's happened to him in a micro so I hope it's not becoming a thing. Also part of why I think Gamma's Town here is that he didn't use this chance to attack anyone. I think scum Gamma uses this as a chance to get "frustrated" at having this happen again and start attacking someone on his wagon as scum. Like I think he'd be a lot more defensive here instead of just rolling over and taking it if he's scum.

Addendum to this, I think the last game I played might have had a RVS wagon reach L-1, and we definitely had some premature claims. Dear god I hope that's not what site meta is turning into.

[Alchemist21]

There's a slight tinge in everyone's heart just to lynch Gamma for the fuck of it

But being serious, it was more of a gambit to end rvs ASAP.

I don't know what to make of the unprovoked claim right now. Knowing Gamma, I honestly doubt they would claim anything other than VT as scum, so my vote stays.

Do you think scum Gamma claims prior to intent though? The actual claim isn't relevant as much as the timing of it.

[Alchemist21]

Is this normal here?

It's not normal for this site, but Gamma said it's the second time it's happened to him in a micro so I hope it's not becoming a thing. Also part of why I think Gamma's Town here is that he didn't use this chance to attack anyone. I think scum Gamma uses this as a chance to get "frustrated" at having this happen again and start attacking someone on his wagon as scum. Like I think he'd be a lot more defensive here instead of just rolling over and taking it if he's scum.

Addendum to this, I think the last game I played might have had a RVS wagon reach L-1, and we definitely had some premature claims. Dear god I hope that's not what site meta is turning into.

That was the first run of C9++ right

I think the L-1 was in the second run (though the latter votes may have had reasons for them). The early claims happened in both runs, and came from both alignments. :/

[Alchemist21]

There's a slight tinge in everyone's heart just to lynch Gamma for the fuck of it

But being serious, it was more of a gambit to end rvs ASAP.

I don't know what to make of the unprovoked claim right now. Knowing Gamma, I honestly doubt they would claim anything other than VT as scum, so my vote stays.

Do you think scum Gamma claims prior to intent though? The actual claim isn't relevant as much as the timing of it.

Never got an answer to this btw.

[Alchemist21]

There's a slight tinge in everyone's heart just to lynch Gamma for the fuck of it

But being serious, it was more of a gambit to end rvs ASAP.

I don't know what to make of the unprovoked claim right now. Knowing Gamma, I honestly doubt they would claim anything other than VT as scum, so my vote stays.

Do you think scum Gamma claims prior to intent though? The actual claim isn't relevant as much as the timing of it.

Never got an answer to this btw.

I don't. But I also don't like the idea that he really thinks a wagon raced to L1 and there's no scum on it

So are you still voting him because you think he's scum or because you think he's wrong?

[Alchemist21]

I addended that
The only vote I can really see as scum is MM4

am happy voting here

Why does that post make you want to keep your vote on him aside from OMGUS?

[Alchemist21]

I'm definitely reading Gamma as neutral leaning town as of now. Roleclaiming so early in the game may not necessarily point towards town but in my opinion it points more towards town than it does mafia. It just seems way too early for mafia to claim. It seems more like a last resort to me.

I'm not really sure what to think of those still voting for Gamma. I'm definitely squinting at them but as of now I'm not really confortable reading them as town or scum. I'm interested to hear the answers they have to Alchemist's questions and maybe a more thorough explanation as to why they are still voting for Gamma. (@MarioManiac4 @Flubbernugget)

Yeah, I'm mildly suspicious of people still voting Gamma after this, but I want to dig down at their intent rather than just slap reads on them too early. Also I feel like people are looking too much at the claim itself rather than the timing of it. Draynth's post is talking only about the claim and seems to miss my point of the timing. There's also the point that Gamma wasn't even going to try to fight this lynch, which I don't think anyone other than flubber has even come close to addressing.

Spoiler: off topic @Alchemist

I'm thinking about going for a pokemon avatar before I complete my great revival sinc I have a kinda fun one
here it is

If you're planning to switch to a Gyarados after your revival then that works.

[Alchemist21]

lol puntastic.

Also use it for people who are splashing (just flopping around without doing anything).

[Alchemist21]

There's a slight tinge in everyone's heart just to lynch Gamma for the fuck of it

But being serious, it was more of a gambit to end rvs ASAP.

I don't know what to make of the unprovoked claim right now. Knowing Gamma, I honestly doubt they would claim anything other than VT as scum, so my vote stays.

Do you think scum Gamma claims prior to intent though? The actual claim isn't relevant as much as the timing of it.

Never got an answer to this btw.

I don't. But I also don't like the idea that he really thinks a wagon raced to L1 and there's no scum on it

So are you still voting him because you think he's scum or because you think he's wrong?

I think he is wrong and scum read him as a result

wrong =/= scum

Why do you think scumGamma makes that argument and not TownGamma? It feels like you're trying to justify keeping your vote on him instead of tying to critically analyze him.

VOTE: Flubbernugger

[Alchemist21]

Hmmm. I seem to have misread your post.

I don't think Gamma would have claimed as town. It was a defensive play.

Do you have any scum reads?

Is this at me or Raya?

[Alchemist21]

Yeah that kinda did happen. To be fair though there was other context to it like the fact you actually were the role you claimed, just a scum one and not a Town one. I think you misread his 86 since it's also saying you would not have claimed PR as scum.

[Alchemist21]

@Flubbernugget I'm honestly not following your reasoning for keeping your vote on Gamma. At the moment I see you as the scummiest so I'm putting my vote on you for now.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

This is indeed justification (you would of course vote who you think is scummiest) but why? Is the fact that you cannot understand why Flubbernugget keeps their vote on Gamma your only reason? If you have other reasons, please explain.

What do you think of flubbernugget right now?

[Alchemist21]

Is Flubber seriously trying to say Gamma was being over defensive?

@BTD,

I still want your current opinion on Flubbernugget.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Something_Smart

VOTE: MM

Reasons from either of you?

[Alchemist21]

What makes it scumposting? It sounds like another OMGUS from you.

[Alchemist21]

Because of his votes on people without reasons

Kinda like your vote?

[Alchemist21]

And yeah I guess it can be inferred your MM vote was for his last vote, but the point I'm trying to make is that meeting naked votes with naked votes isn't productive for the game.

[Alchemist21]

Mario where do I sit, since S_S is apparently a stronger scumread than me?

You sit between null and S_S.

What makes it scumposting? It sounds like another OMGUS from you.

It feels like scumposting.

SCUMREADING SOMEONE WHO IS SCUMREADING YOU IS

NOT

OMGUS.

kk glad we've got that sorted out

When you're not giving any actual reasons aside from "gut" and your only scumreads have been on people who even mildly suspect you, it is OMGUS. It's on you to try and convince me otherwise.

[Alchemist21]

"OMGUS stands for "Oh My God, You Suck (for voting for me)!". it is sometimes used as a shorthand to indicate that you are voting for someone primarily because they voted for you."
I am not voting for people primarily because they voted for me. Therefore, despite scumreading Gamma and SS who have shown "mild suspicion" (and no, SS saying "oh MM's vote is fencesitty2 isn't really even worth acting on even from an OMGUS POV) of me at some point, I have not been doing OMGUS.
Thank you for your time

You still haven't explained why you think SS was scumposting. If it's not OMGUS than what is it you see in his posts that indicate scum to you?

[Alchemist21]

Without stating. It's in towns best interest to explain your reasoning thats why I think it's scummy.

But you didn't state reasons either. I definitely agree it's in Town's best interests to state reasoning but I disagree on it being scummy. Even though they shouldn't, Town make naked votes pretty frequently - far too often to be able to just slap scumreads on everyone who does it. I mean, even you did it. If you're Town, you already have solid evidence that Town does it.

[Alchemist21]

We should all cast just cast naked votes the rest of the game. Then we'll definitely catch the scum, especially if all the votes are just one continuous string of reaction tests. /s

[Alchemist21]

So I'm telling people that naked votes deny the info needed to actually scumhunt, and the response to that is to get mad at me for not scumhunting. Great. At least that vote was actually explained so it's a start.

[Alchemist21]

It's also false to say I don't follow up on my questions when I actually do get answers to them. Which btw you never told me why you thought SS was scumposting.

[Alchemist21]

People who think gut votes are more accurate are just confbiasing themselves because they remember all the times they were right and forget about the times they were wrong. Do you not understand that people who don't use gut need something substantial to go on?

As for the answers thing, point to a question I got an answer to that you think I did nothing with and we can talk about it.

[Alchemist21]

when you're one post away from the pagetop but mm4 takes it instead

God Dammit!!

ThinkBig, I have failed you!!!

Some mods would cheat and edit the vc into the pagetop anyway.

[Alchemist21]

I'd like substantial evidence for that.

I'd like substantial evidence that gut is superior. I take it you've seen that thread that popped up on this matter a few months back?

[Alchemist21]

There's a slight tinge in everyone's heart just to lynch Gamma for the fuck of it

But being serious, it was more of a gambit to end rvs ASAP.

I don't know what to make of the unprovoked claim right now. Knowing Gamma, I honestly doubt they would claim anything other than VT as scum, so my vote stays.

Do you think scum Gamma claims prior to intent though? The actual claim isn't relevant as much as the timing of it.

Never got an answer to this btw.

I don't. But I also don't like the idea that he really thinks a wagon raced to L1 and there's no scum on it

So are you still voting him because you think he's scum or because you think he's wrong?

I think he is wrong and scum read him as a result

wrong =/= scum

Why do you think scumGamma makes that argument and not TownGamma? It feels like you're trying to justify keeping your vote on him instead of tying to critically analyze him.

VOTE: Flubbernugger

I don't have a smoking gun on Gamma but it's pg 4 and everyone else looks town so being wrong about how wagons work is good enough atm

The answer he gave to that question was "It's early, leave me alone." There's nothing I really could do with that one.

131 I never got an answer to, so don't even complain about that lacking follow up.

[Alchemist21]

Who's scum, Alchemist?

I still think Flubber's scum. I had you as possible scum but was giving you a bit of a pass because I remember playing with you in the past and thinking you were a VI for some reason, and your play here is telling me that's still true.

[Alchemist21]

So why didn't you ask for an answer instead of attacking gut reads?

For 209? Because I get tired of pulling teeth and I didn't feel like wasting the energy on someone who was clearly going to be stubborn.

[Alchemist21]

Since 90 I have been trying to get more info, but when people start throwing out naked votes, and the other posts are people asking for reasons for those votes, it's pretty damn hard to get the reads I need. I may be the most vocal about it but I'm pretty sure a lot of others were tired of the lack of reasoning. Hard evidence of what actual reasons can do for the game state is right here in our conversation. We've added as much content this afternoon as has been added in the past 2 days, and it's because you gave reasons that can actually be discussed.

[Alchemist21]

There have been 3, and the other posts have mostly been responses to them. I'm pretty sure the low activity from the past couple days was a result of that stagnating the game.

[Alchemist21]

There have been 3, and the other posts have mostly been responses to them. I'm pretty sure the low activity from the past couple days was a result of that stagnating the game.

Yes. So why have people only been responding to them, as compared to responding to the responses and building discussion?
You've been consistently criticising naked-voting, instead of building discussion, like you say you want. Does that make you obvscum? No. Does that make you worthy of a vote at this point? Absolutely.

Dannyboy's vote did build a small discussion that simmered down. It's basically over unless Flubber decides to explain why he likes his vote there. I have been building discussion when I could, and the naked votes have made that difficult which is why I'm criticizing them.

[Alchemist21]

Raya are weak Town. Most others are near nullish.

Can you explain your Raya read? I have her as leaning Town, but one reason I had I realized was NAI and the other reason may be as well. I'd like to know if you're seeing something more substantial from her.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Danny

I'm starting to sense a pattern here...

What is it?

I was referring to the fact that this was the 3rd or 4th naked vote in a row, to be honest I thought it was sarcasm at first

I've had two votes the entire game and as of your accusation one of them was explained

We should all cast just cast naked votes the rest of the game. Then we'll definitely catch the scum, especially if all the votes are just one continuous string of reaction tests. /s

Tell me more about how I never explain my votes

Nobody's saying you only throw out naked votes, the issue was that the past 3 votes in the game were naked votes, coming from Mario, Danny, and then you.

[Alchemist21]

Gamma do you have other reads besides MM right now?

[Alchemist21]

Raya is probably town. Her thought process looks genuine and her comments are authentic. I'm going to be thoroughly impressed if she's actually scum here.

Looking back on it I'm not that keen on Flubber!town anymore. He appears to be taking ambiguous statements as attacks on him, and his callouts seem pedantic. Nevertheless, his posts do still feel somewhat genuine as a thought process, and I concur with the conclusion he got from Gamma.

Gamma's posting seems more genuine, looking back. Posts like 34 make me think he legitimately doesn't know/understand how L-1 in RVS is different from RVS outside it. This makes his somewhat pedantic comment on my RVS joke look better, as well- previously I thought he was scum for it because I couldn't understand how he would reach that conclusion as town. However I'm coming to the conclusion that I simply can't understand Gamma.

S_S seems to genuinely be scumhunting here. He made some good points on Dan and Gamma, that I at least understand even if I don't agree with them. I'm thinking he's town here.

To be honest I'm thinking Draynth is town just for 100. I very rarely see scum pretending to agree with points; usually, they craft their own in my experience due to it being viewed as town behaviour. There is more than enough material for scum!Draynth to craft his own case here, but he chooses not to. (I missed Draynth asking me why I claimed earlier. I believe it's beneficial for townies to be able to confirm 2 players as town on d1- especially considering I was not being townread at the time of my claim. Scum are basically forced to NK me, unless they want to leave conftown alive. This gives room for more capable players and PRs to do their thing in the Night phase.) In return, I will ask you (Draynth); why did you want to ask me why I claimed? I don't think it would help you with scumhunting?

Eh. Dan is harder. I just see the town logical stream between all of his posts. Like, I could see him not giving reasons in order to test my reactions; newbies do things like that to try to be helpful all of the time. And I don't see why scum would say something like, "I thought it was different when I was doing it." Dan just feels more like lynchbait than scum.

I'm seeing basically the same thing with Raya. Her posts seem to have a decent amount of content and are candid enough that it seems like she's got nothing to hide. I'm hesitant to call her strong Town though since that may just be her posting style. I was also thinking slight Town because of her reaction to the quick wagon in RVS, but her response came after I moved off so we can't say for 100% sure she wouldn't have quicklynched, especially now considering that she's claiming to come from a site where it's normal and that could provide meta defense for her quickhammer. HOWEVER, seeing as she didn't place any RVS vote when she had posted earlier during RVS, I figured she just wasn't the type to place RVS votes and counted all that as null.

Saw the 1st line in your Draynth paragraph and clicked the post link and thought you were crazy for thinking that makes someone Town, but everything after that kinda makes sense. Scum probably would benefit from their own cases, but there are times when they just get lazy and sheep. Despite how infrequent his posts are what he has posted makes me think he's not the lazy type, so that makes me think he's more likely Town who just agreed with me. Would definitely keep an eye on him going forward though to make sure he's not just sheeping everything though.

Danny also strikes me as an easy target for scum, but I'd like to see more posts from him before I get a read there. I have a bad habit of giving people like that a pass and it's bitten me in the ass a few times.

@Mod

It says 2 people are voting for MM but only Gamma's name, something went wrong

You saw nothing!

My townreads are MM and Gamma, MM because of the claim and Gamma because of his early claim also.

I disagree with your read on Raya her vote against Flubber seems weak to me, she thinks flubbers scum and was asking to quicklych was serious.

Why are you voting for Dany and after he unvoted why are you still happy with your vote on him?

No commitment

Do only scum have this behavior or do town too?

He appears to be taking ambiguous statements as attacks on him.

Could you give an example I don't see it.

RE Raya and Flubber: Raya called him scummy for asking for the quicklynch, but said at the time she didn't think that made him scum. She didn't say he was scum until later when he wouldn't unvote Gamma.

Since 90 I have been trying to get more info, but when people start throwing out naked votes, and the other posts are people asking for reasons for those votes, it's pretty damn hard to get the reads I need. I may be the most vocal about it but I'm pretty sure a lot of others were tired of the lack of reasoning. Hard evidence of what actual reasons can do for the game state is right here in our conversation. We've added as much content this afternoon as has been added in the past 2 days, and it's because you gave reasons that can actually be discussed.

I see this as being slightly Town-motivated.

It seems like the Town reaction to want reasons behind a vote. Town want to know why someone is more likely scum, and need reasons from others who think someone is scum. Scum do not care about reasons. They just want any wagon on a Townie (most of the time).

Scum may not have pro-Town reasons for their vote. They may just be voting because they want to get that mislynch (of course, they won't admit to this). In this case, they will not be able to give pro-Town reasoning for their vote or, when pushed to give it, the reasoning is flimsy. Town should always have reasoning for their votes (obviously, excluding RVS). Town who vote without any reasons are playing anti-Town. If Town have reasons, they should always be able to give them. I can understand this thought process coming from Town.

I have a weak Townread on Alchemist.

So now that you're Townreading me are you going to start answering questions I ask you? I don't like being ignored.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Gamma
I honestly don't know where to start here so I'll start on the Mario wagon.

What? How is a vote on Gamma starting on the Mario wagon? Or are you calling it Mario's wagon because that's where Mario's vote was? I'm all kinds of confused here.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Gamma
I honestly don't know where to start here so I'll start on the Mario wagon.

Looking back through Something Smart's posts I don't think this is genuine. He's been pointing out things he finds suspicious in his earlier posts, so I don't see how he could come in with no idea of where to start. Especially when you consider that his vote went on someone he already voiced suspicion on, it seems more like he wanted to place a vote with the safe and easy reason that the person was on the claimed Friendly Neighbor's wagon.

[Alchemist21]

and my vote is on one of the players I pointed out as being suspicious

I know that and mentioned as much. The fact that you come in and act like you have no clue where to start when you had several suspicions to work with is what pings me, and the suspicion is strengthened by you voting Gamma with your "no idea where to start" thing when you had established suspicions of them. If you already had those to work then it tells me you were lying about not knowing where to start to try to keep your hands clean.

Townies do suspicious things all the time

Your point being?

[Alchemist21]

Prodding BTD6_maker, Raya36

Prod Ari too imo.

[Alchemist21]

My point is that I'm not going to call someone scum just for doing a few things that seem suspicious. (I need something more concrete which I haven't found this game yet.) And if I vote someone just for being suspicious, then I know from experience that that will inevitably lead to confbias.

I'd like to not be voting now but I felt like not enough was happening and when that's the case more vote changes is often a solution to that.

So when the fuck do you plan on calling people scum? Do you just not scumhunt? And again, this still doesn't explain how someone with suspicions on players can claim they have no idea where to start when placing their vote.

VOTE: Something_Smart[/v]

I want this more than Flubber now, though I could switch back to flubber. Flubber does seem like he's trying to get his last thoughts out which is Towny, but I'm still wary because after I said accepting the lynch is more likely to come from Town with Gamma, I'm not going to say it's impossible scum could be trying to emulate that behavior.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Something_Smart

[Alchemist21]

If you plan on calling people scum then you're doing it wrong.

I lol'd.

[Alchemist21]

Also, a weakened scumread isn't me keeping options open, it's me considering his newest posts in conjunction with his earlier ones. Logical and maybe even robotic doesn't seem too off the mark for my posts, but shallow? It's shallow to consider the possibilty of scum emulating what someone described as Town behavior earlier in the game?

[Alchemist21]

That came out wrong rofl.

I think you know what I meant though: you shouldn't just decide that "I should have some scumreads of X strength now" and then have them.

I didn't know what you meant. I don't think any other player would come up and say "Yeah I have these suspicions, but I'm going to ignore them because voting one of 2 people on a wagon is a better way of finding scum than following my suspicions."

[Alchemist21]

I mean I can get someone having a hard time forming reads. What I don't get is how a Town player could have suspicions of their own and then think that sheeping someone else is a better way to advance the game or to get reads than by acting on those suspicions. I don't buy the explanations he's giving because to me it sounds like he's trying to get by with doing as little as possible rather than actually fix the problem he says he's having. My vote stays.

[Alchemist21]

ok I'm feeling more town on Alchemist and I don't like to sheep but I'm pretty sure this is like the perfect time to sheep so
VOTE: iDanyBoy

You vote me for sheeping while sheeping?
I agree with a lot of what Alchemist is posting (280) and didn't have much to add onto that, this is also making me see him as a townie.

What it is is I can't lock onto any scumreads and I feel useless.

I'd like to know what changed your vote from Alchemist to me?

Because Mario seemed like an easy lynch and easy lynches that are town are prime places for scum to vote, especially when the overall state of the game is slow.

What makes you think he was an easy lynch? He only had two votes on him at that time and I unvoted shortly after.

VOTE: SS
He switches his votes from people to people with very little reasoning and his responses' to Alchemist seem like scum.

What are your current reads aside from SS?

[Alchemist21]

Official Vote Count

Flubbernugget

(3): Alchemist21, Raya36, MarioManiac4

Gamma Emerald

(1): Something_Smart

iDanyboy

(1): Flubbernugget

Not Voting

(4): Gamma Emerald, iDanyboy, Draynth, BTD6_maker

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-06-08 15:40:54)

PSA that there are 26 hours left and we need to come together on a lynch.

[Alchemist21]

@BTD, is there a reason you've ignored all my previous attempts to engage you?

He seems to be in a posting mood so maybe he'll answer this time.

[Alchemist21]

@BTD, is there a reason you've ignored all my previous attempts to engage you?

He seems to be in a posting mood so maybe he'll answer this time.

Which attempts? I don't see you engaging me since last time you mentioned.

Those are the times I'm talking about. You always ignored me.

[Alchemist21]

guys does anyone have any thoughts on my raya vote am i insane

Is the only reason because she called you a Town lean and not hard Town? That's more semantics imo, plus technically you aren't confirmed until you can send your message to someone, so I wouldn't immediately call her scum for having an ounce of skepticism.

[Alchemist21]

Since 90 I have been trying to get more info, but when people start throwing out naked votes, and the other posts are people asking for reasons for those votes, it's pretty damn hard to get the reads I need. I may be the most vocal about it but I'm pretty sure a lot of others were tired of the lack of reasoning. Hard evidence of what actual reasons can do for the game state is right here in our conversation. We've added as much content this afternoon as has been added in the past 2 days, and it's because you gave reasons that can actually be discussed.

I see this as being slightly Town-motivated.

It seems like the Town reaction to want reasons behind a vote. Town want to know why someone is more likely scum, and need reasons from others who think someone is scum. Scum do not care about reasons. They just want any wagon on a Townie (most of the time).

Scum may not have pro-Town reasons for their vote. They may just be voting because they want to get that mislynch (of course, they won't admit to this). In this case, they will not be able to give pro-Town reasoning for their vote or, when pushed to give it, the reasoning is flimsy. Town should always have reasoning for their votes (obviously, excluding RVS). Town who vote without any reasons are playing anti-Town. If Town have reasons, they should always be able to give them. I can understand this thought process coming from Town.

I have a weak Townread on Alchemist.

So now that you're Townreading me are you going to start answering questions I ask you? I don't like being ignored.

This was that last time. What questions were you planning on asking me? I don't see any since then.

I don't have other new questions right now, and I've lost interest in the actual answers to the questions I asked then. The only question I have right now is why you didn't answer me back then?

[Alchemist21]

Since 90 I have been trying to get more info, but when people start throwing out naked votes, and the other posts are people asking for reasons for those votes, it's pretty damn hard to get the reads I need. I may be the most vocal about it but I'm pretty sure a lot of others were tired of the lack of reasoning. Hard evidence of what actual reasons can do for the game state is right here in our conversation. We've added as much content this afternoon as has been added in the past 2 days, and it's because you gave reasons that can actually be discussed.

I see this as being slightly Town-motivated.

It seems like the Town reaction to want reasons behind a vote. Town want to know why someone is more likely scum, and need reasons from others who think someone is scum. Scum do not care about reasons. They just want any wagon on a Townie (most of the time).

Scum may not have pro-Town reasons for their vote. They may just be voting because they want to get that mislynch (of course, they won't admit to this). In this case, they will not be able to give pro-Town reasoning for their vote or, when pushed to give it, the reasoning is flimsy. Town should always have reasoning for their votes (obviously, excluding RVS). Town who vote without any reasons are playing anti-Town. If Town have reasons, they should always be able to give them. I can understand this thought process coming from Town.

I have a weak Townread on Alchemist.

So now that you're Townreading me are you going to start answering questions I ask you? I don't like being ignored.

This was that last time. What questions were you planning on asking me? I don't see any since then.

There were like 2 attempts before this one that went ignored as well. That post you're quoting was a result of them going ignored.

[Alchemist21]

I mean I kinda wanted that one answered with a simple yes/no. My line of thinking was "Ok if he's Town and he thinks I'm Town then maybe he'll start wanting to work with me." But the ones before that were direct questions to you in an attempt to get a read on you so I don't know why you didn't want to respond to them. And then when I get absolutely no response to any of them I can't tell if you're just missing my posts or are deliberately choosing not to answer them.

[Alchemist21]

You're responding now, and coupled with your increase in posting volume I'd say you weren't lying about being busy and arbitrarily picking what you responded to, but I'm still curious to know why direct questions to you were skipped over early on.

[Alchemist21]

Anyway I'm going to bed, I'll read the thread throughout the day and hopefully respond to some posts tomorrow evening.

I had to resist the urge to vote you for making me look.

Also could you look back and my points about Something Smart and read our interaction and tell me what you think?

As for BTD, I get the point of him making such an effort of stating his thoughts were original despite them being the same points others made. It also felt like he was dodging my question when he actually did start responding to me. His latest posts though actually do give me the impression that he's Town not playing as well as he could, though I can still see why scum might do the things he's doing. Before today I would have compromised on him without much hesitation, but that's admittedly mostly because of the whole "he ignored me" thing and his latest posts are giving me pause.

Your first point on flubber is a fair point and something I didn't really think about before. I'm less sure on him now than I was but could probably still vote there.

I'm treating Gamma as obvTown since the RVS wagon happened, and while I disagree with you on the read there I looked back at your posts about him and can see where you're coming from.

I was gonna say something about you Townreading multiple people for the same generic reasons but from your phrasing it seems you realize it and that those reasons don't automatically make someone Town. It's also the kind of thing I wouldn't be surprised to see come from Town, especially if they had to go through multiple posts in a short time, so I'm thinking you're Town here.

[Alchemist21]

Yes it still applies because it's still a thing that happened. What 336 is getting at is that you failed to demonstrate the most basic of Town thought. In the past I have misread Town for not playing optimally, but I was expecting them to think like 2 or 3 levels deep. Any Town player would have thought to follow on their own suspicions, so the way I see it you lacked that thought process because you were never Town. You look like you're starting to form reads, but I can't really give Town points for you doing something after getting called out on not doing it because that could easily be scum adjusting.

[Alchemist21]

I don't believe that it's possible for a Town player to think sheeping is a better solution to advancing the game or fixing their no reads issue than going on their own suspicions. How is using someone else's reads supposed to fix your own? If you're going for reactions, what reactions do you expect to get from blindly sheeping?

And your first question there is a dumb one because I straight up said in the 336 you just linked that I can understand someone having a hard time forming reads. That you didn't have reads wasn't my issue, it was how you decided to go about "fixing" the issue.

[Alchemist21]

That came out wrong rofl.

I think you know what I meant though: you shouldn't just decide that "I should have some scumreads of X strength now" and then have them.

I didn't know what you meant. I don't think any other player would come up and say "Yeah I have these suspicions, but I'm going to ignore them because voting one of 2 people on a wagon is a better way of finding scum than following my suspicions."

It's not ignoring them, it's just like, if all you have are vague suspicions, they're more likely noise than signal.

And the vote on Gamma was a vote to get the game moving (and possibly get reactions)

rather than an actual vote based on a scumread.

And now I'm liking your responses so I feel like this one might be noise too

I don't believe that it's possible for a Town player to think sheeping is a better solution to advancing the game or fixing their no reads issue than going on their own suspicions. How is using someone else's reads supposed to fix your own? If you're going for reactions, what reactions do you expect to get from blindly sheeping?

I wasn't trying to do something in order to fix my own reads. My entire point was that when people do things I think I can read, then I'll read them.

I never had any intention of specifically getting people to do things that I could then read

(because I know from experience that that never works well), though ironically that's exactly what I did.

And your first question there is a dumb one because I straight up said in the 336 you just linked that I can understand someone having a hard time forming reads. That you didn't have reads wasn't my issue, it was how you decided to go about "fixing" the issue.

I wasn't trying to fix the issue. I was trying to vote scum. I expect the average townie's reads to be at least marginally better than random. I didn't expect my reads at that time to be better than random (scumreads anyway, and Mario wasn't voting one of my townreads). I knew Mario was town. Therefore, I figured that the best bet to vote scum was to vote who he was voting, until I found better reads.

Why do you think I would intentionally shun forming any scumreads as scum (thus drawing attention), when I could certainly have fabricated some?

And just like that you're caught in your lie. As for your last question, you could have been trying to get away with doing as little as possible, and sheeping Mario gave you a way to do that.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: ss

Look I know he's my top scumread right now and I appreciate the support, but I need to know if you're sheeping me, agreeing with me, or have your own reasons here.-1 Don't make me break out the naked vote lecture again.

Also I think that vote is

L-1

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Gamma
I honestly don't know where to start here so I'll start on the Mario wagon.

Yes it was omfg.

[Alchemist21]

Gamma was on the Mario wagon.

Oh wait I forgot that's what you meant.

[Alchemist21]

I might have been wrong in 402 about that being a direct lie, but it still seems like a contradiction that he did something to get reactions, then claims later that he wasn't trying to get reactions. Idk. Maybe I need a break. (I did think today was Tuesday until the guy who comes to our house on Wednesdays showed up).

[Alchemist21]

Official Vote Count

Something_Smart

(3): Alchemist21, iDanyboy, BTD6_maker

Raya36

(2): MarioManiac4, Gamma Emerald

BTD6_maker

(2): Something_Smart, Draynth

Alchemist21

(1): Flubbernugget

Not Voting

(1): Raya36

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-06-08 15:40:54)

Flubber changed his vote to Something Smart.

[Alchemist21]

The only wagon I'm remotely okay with rn is Raya

What do you find scummy about her? She's one of the people I definitely don't want to lynch.

[Alchemist21]

I might have been wrong in 402 about that being a direct lie, but it still seems like a contradiction that he did something to get reactions, then claims later that he wasn't trying to get reactions. Idk. Maybe I need a break. (I did think today was Tuesday until the guy who comes to our house on Wednesdays showed up).

Getting the game moving doesn't mean getting reactions. Nothing was happening.

But "possibly get reactions" means getting reactions. lol

[Alchemist21]

The only wagon I'm remotely okay with rn is Raya

What do you find scummy about her? She's one of the people I definitely don't want to lynch.

Nothing much but I find the others townier
you cool wagoning flubbernugget?

I'd be cool with it but now I kinda wanna see what he says about his SS vote first.

Actually, let's do it.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

I'll still be around to switch back if needed, plus this would keep the hammer from dropping before I get that explanation from Flubber.

[Alchemist21]

To me her posts seem fairly candid. She isn't posting like she has anything to hide nor is she posting as if she's pushing some kind of agenda.

[Alchemist21]

Anyway I'm going to bed, I'll read the thread throughout the day and hopefully respond to some posts tomorrow evening.

I had to resist the urge to vote you for making me look.

Hehe

Also could you look back and my points about Something Smart and read our interaction and tell me what you think?

Spoilered it since there's a lot of long quotes, sorry if it's wall-like

Spoiler: @Alchemist

VOTE: Gamma
I honestly don't know where to start here so I'll start on the Mario wagon.

Looking back through Something Smart's posts I don't think this is genuine. He's been pointing out things he finds suspicious in his earlier posts, so I don't see how he could come in with no idea of where to start. Especially when you consider that his vote went on someone he already voiced suspicion on, it seems more like he wanted to place a vote with the safe and easy reason that the person was on the claimed Friendly Neighbor's wagon.

Townies do suspicious things all the time (and my vote is on one of the players I pointed out as being suspicious so I don't know what you expected).

Speaking of suspicious, I see you suspecting me using the safe and easy reason of suspecting me for using the safe and easy reason of having voted the claimed FN to suspect Gamma. (That was supposed to sound clever but instead it just sounds convoluted.)

This post feels weird to me. He starts off by justifying what he did by saying 'Townies do suspicious things all the time'. I think if it was genuine then wouldn't he argue that it's not suspicious given the circumstances? It's strange that he just accepts it and tries to discredit your point instead of (directly) defending himself.

and my vote is on one of the players I pointed out as being suspicious

I know that and mentioned as much. The fact that you come in and act like you have no clue where to start when you had several suspicions to work with is what pings me, and the suspicion is strengthened by you voting Gamma with your "no idea where to start" thing when you had established suspicions of them. If you already had those to work then it tells me you were lying about not knowing where to start to try to keep your hands clean.

Townies do suspicious things all the time

Your point being?

The first point is a good one I think, I thought something similar when I read it first.

My point is that I'm not going to call someone scum just for doing a few things that seem suspicious. (I need something more concrete which I haven't found this game yet.) And if I vote someone just for being suspicious, then I know from experience that that will inevitably lead to confbias.

I'd like to not be voting now but I felt like not enough was happening and when that's the case more vote changes is often a solution to that.

So when the fuck do you plan on calling people scum? Do you just not scumhunt? And again, this still doesn't explain how someone with suspicions on players can claim they have no idea where to start when placing their vote.

If you plan on calling people scum then you're doing it wrong. (Or you're scum.) Just because it's been 10 days doesn't make the 13 pages of mostly pointless bickering this game is any easier to read and it doesn't mean everyone has a duty to have a strong scumread.

That said, the last paragraph of this post sets off alarm bells for me:

I want this more than Flubber now, though I could switch back to flubber. Flubber does seem like he's trying to get his last thoughts out which is Towny, but I'm still wary because after I said accepting the lynch is more likely to come from Town with Gamma, I'm not going to say it's impossible scum could be trying to emulate that behavior.

First sentence feels like scum keeping options open rather than town having organic read changes. Second sentence is incredibly shallow and feels very logical and robotic for somebody supposedly afraid of being pocketed.
VOTE: Alchemist

I disagree with the point about 'keeping his options open'. Alchemist scumreading you doesn't impact his read on Flubber at all, hell you can both be scum. Since he's scumreading both of you it makes sense to be willing to lynch either, and it makes sense to want to lynch one more than the other depending on the strength of the scumreads.

As for BTD, I get the point of him making such an effort of stating his thoughts were original despite them being the same points others made. It also felt like he was dodging my question when he actually did start responding to me. His latest posts though actually do give me the impression that he's Town not playing as well as he could, though I can still see why scum might do the things he's doing. Before today I would have compromised on him without much hesitation, but that's admittedly mostly because of the whole "he ignored me" thing and his latest posts are giving me pause.

Your first point on flubber is a fair point and something I didn't really think about before. I'm less sure on him now than I was but could probably still vote there.

I'm treating Gamma as obvTown since the RVS wagon happened, and while I disagree with you on the read there I looked back at your posts about him and can see where you're coming from.

I was gonna say something about you Townreading multiple people for the same generic reasons but from your phrasing it seems you realize it and that those reasons don't automatically make someone Town. It's also the kind of thing I wouldn't be surprised to see come from Town, especially if they had to go through multiple posts in a short time, so I'm thinking you're Town here.

Can I ask what your case against Flubber is? Think I'm just missing it in your ISO
I forgot to consider that whole early claim situation in the readslist, I think I commented on it before, but I'll think about it again and see if it impacts the read on the slot.

So with flubber it goes back to 90. Your point about him getting us out of RVS was something I didn't really think about because I was looking at what was going on in the aftermath of the L-1.

[Alchemist21]

Flubber changed his vote to Something Smart.

Fixed

Official Vote Count

Flubbernugget

(4): Alchemist21, Gamma Emerald, MarioManiac4, Raya36

BTD6_maker

(2): Something_Smart, Draynth

Something_Smart

(2): iDanyboy, BTD6_maker

Alchemist21

(1): Flubbernugget

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-06-08 15:40:54)

His vote is still on SS.

[Alchemist21]

Picking up from yesterday.

VOTE: Something_Smart

[Alchemist21]

Were you not paying attention to us yesterday?

[Alchemist21]

Well just double ISO us because I don't feel like typing it all out again.

[Alchemist21]

@Dany what are your current reads?

[Alchemist21]

I'm definitely reading Gamma as neutral leaning town as of now. Roleclaiming so early in the game may not necessarily point towards town but in my opinion it points more towards town than it does mafia. It just seems way too early for mafia to claim. It seems more like a last resort to me.

I'm not really sure what to think of those still voting for Gamma. I'm definitely squinting at them but as of now I'm not really confortable reading them as town or scum. I'm interested to hear the answers they have to Alchemist's questions and maybe a more thorough explanation as to why they are still voting for Gamma. (@MarioManiac4 @Flubbernugget)

Scum Lean
-Dany Very little actual content coming from Dany and I still don't like his recent sheepiness. I did find one post of his that included some reads although the two town reads were only because of claims and that was the only reasoning given. He doesn't appear to be even trying to scumhunt to me.
-Flubber 132 sums up my read on Flubber pretty well. Since then besides his defence posts to 132 nearly every post was only 1 sentence long and had little to no game advancing content.

Neutral/Unsure
-SS
-BTD6
-Draynth - Interested in their reads list promised for today
-Gamma

Town Lean
-MM4
-Alchemist


I would be happy voting for either of my two scum leans.

What bumped Gamma back down to unsure in your reads?

[Alchemist21]

Town - GE , Alchemist
Scum - BTD-6, SS(stronger scumread)

What's your reason for BTD? I don't see anything about him in your ISO.

[Alchemist21]

@Gamma I think Raya makes a good point. We need to see some reads from you.

@Dany, how would either BTD or Something_Smart flipping scum/Town affect your read on the other? Looking back at how they've interacted I don't think they'd be scum together.

[Alchemist21]

That's not what I'm saying.

In 137 you cast a naked vote on MM. When pushed on the naked vote, you claimed that you were scumreading him because of his naked voting, which is hypocritical.

Yet when I asked about why you needed to quote Mario to make your point on BTD, you didn't want to be hypocritical and do the same thing you are scumreading him for.

BTD also hasn't posted in like 5 days (including 2 and a half being night phase), he's lurking a worrying amount right now.

I'm voting for you because you're flip flopping and being generally wishy washy.

I don't really get your point on Dany. His play is lazy for sure but I wouldn't call it wishy washy. Also I think what you're saying about his MM vote vs his BTD vote is missing some context. Look back at the MM vote and you'll see at least 3 people all pointed out how it was hypocritical, and his reactions to those statements seem like he actually thought he was doing something different with his vote. I imagine anyone after that would be more cautious about being hypocritical.

That said he's moved into my 2nd scumread because he's the only one that really makes sense as a partner for SS. All the other candidates I've looked at either have something that makes me think they're Town or that they can't be scum together with BTD. So either I have the game solved or I'm way off base with my reads and need to re-evaluate everyone.

Kinda off topic but did you ever look back at Gamma's early claim and see how it impacted your read on him?

[Alchemist21]

or B)Acknowledge your logic was incorrect (And don't you dare quote 184)

So quick question, why is 184 invalid for point B? It seems to me that's what he was doing in 184.

[Alchemist21]

UNVOTE:

With the way this Day's playing out I think I need to re-evaluate. It's concerning me that a lot of people have the same 2 scumreads (SS and Dany) and it just feels too easy.

[Alchemist21]

I think the person I'm most interested in hearing reasoning from right now is Raya.

[Alchemist21]

@Alchemist
Anyone in specific you want me to explain my reasoning for?

The scumreads in particular.

[Alchemist21]

How has it been 2 days

Surprised me too yesterday when I saw it had been nearly 2 days since my last post. I think Father Time just wants to play tricks on us in this game.

[Alchemist21]

I was kinda seeing the same thing but I wanted to see what she had to say for herself first. What made me interested in her explanations was that D1 she said something about Dany's reads looked like he was sheeping me, but then her last reads list this Day looked a lot like mine too (and BTD's as he posted between us). I didn't know if it was a scummy contradiction in her play but I did want to see if she would slip up in her explanations.

[Alchemist21]

I feel so useless rn

...and later that day, Gamma Emerald evolved from a useless Magikarp into a kickass Gyarados.

[Alchemist21]

I agree with Draynth. If Raya thinks BTD's reads have a lot of content she should have more to work with.

But beyond that I noticed all of Raya's suspicions on those 3 slots are based around them sheeping. I'm not sure if it's that she can't figure out other ways to form scumreads on people or if she's just looking for something easy to scumread, but either way strikes me as scum because I think Town wouldn't have the same basic reason on 3 separate slots.

And when I looked closer at her vote on SS D1, it looked pretty opportunistic. She just joined the wagon at L-1, then soon after backed off and said it was a reaction test. At the time I took the statement at face value because of how I was reading her and SS at the time, but in hindsight I should have been more critical of it because:
a) she joined what was admittedly a fast-rising wagon with no explanation at the time she voted.
b) she said she was Townreading Something_Smart's reaction to the L-1 as the reason to leave, but she wasn't the first to leave the wagon. It could be that she saw the wagon rising and wanted in on it, then backed off when she realized it wasn't gonna go all the way to a lynch right then.

VOTE: Raya

I still want to re-evaluate some of the others in this game but my wifi's been laggy these past couple days and taking ages to load new pages, so I might have to go based off a combination of memory of what they did + their new posts today. Plus the SUPP has taken most of my forum focus for as long as that's been going on.

[Alchemist21]

Hello I'm back. Rip this game

b) she said she was Townreading Something_Smart's reaction to the L-1 as the reason to leave, but she wasn't the first to leave the wagon. It could be that she saw the wagon rising and wanted in on it, then backed off when she realized it wasn't gonna go all the way to a lynch right then.

What do you think caused her to realize this? Did you realize it?

Like I said in my last post, someone unvoted you before she did. Luckily my wifi's not lagging today so I might go back and check the time stamps, but I'm thinking she saw a QL opportunity but then got off when she saw someone else get off. Obviously I thought your wagon could still go through and I didn't want to leave it because you were my top scumread.

[Alchemist21]

Yeah, 332 is when Gamma unvoted, and Raya made one post, then unvoted in the post after that, so she had time to see the unvote.

[Alchemist21]

@BTD, who are you Townreading and why? (I can already see about your scumreads and why). Or rather, let me get more specific and to the point. Are there any reads which you agree on with someone but you disagree with the other person's reasons/have your own, unique reasons?

[Alchemist21]

Going through Dany's ISO and it bothers me that most of his content has come from responses to accusations. It makes it seem to me that he's reluctant to provide content on his own without being provoked. I think his recent interaction with Draynth looks pretty natural, but he was still provoked into it plus I think Draynth's reasons were wrong so I think Dany could have easily made genuine arguments as either alignment there. I think I might have been the same way a couple years back tbh so I wouldn't put it down as obvscum. Then there's still that early thing where he naked voted someone for naked voting. The more I think about it the more it confuses me. Like as either alignment it means he didn't take the 2 seconds required to realize how dumb it was and how bad it would make him look. It does seem pretty similar to Raya's vote on SS when I think about it. In conjunction with what I said before I'd say Dany's still my 2nd scumread.

[Alchemist21]

Gamma needs to come back. All his reads have been weak and his 493 seems to indicate that most reads he had before went back to null (or he just up and forgot about them). I still think the early claim and reaction to his L-1 wagon was more Towny than not, but if he's Town he still needs to get in here and do something.

[Alchemist21]

Someone get a timer and see how long it takes for that avi to completely cycle through omg.

I agree with SS that a gamesolve would be great. I also have a little voice that tells me things about myself. My therapist said it runs in my family but the voice said they're not my real family so idk.

[Alchemist21]

Flubbernugget (5): Alchemist21, Gamma Emerald, MarioManiac4, Raya36, Something_Smart

I'd be cool with it but now I kinda wanna see what he says about his SS vote first.

Actually, let's do it.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

I'll still be around to switch back if needed, plus this would keep the hammer from dropping before I get that explanation from Flubber.

Flubber

VOTE: Flubbernugget

That beings Flubber to L-1

Something_Smart (3): iDanyboy, BTD6_maker, Flubbernugget

ok I'm feeling more town on Alchemist and I don't like to sheep but I'm pretty sure this is like the perfect time to sheep so
VOTE: iDanyBoy

You vote me for sheeping while sheeping?
I agree with a lot of what Alchemist is posting (280) and didn't have much to add onto that, this is also making me see him as a townie.

What it is is I can't lock onto any scumreads and I feel useless.

I'd like to know what changed your vote from Alchemist to me?

Because Mario seemed like an easy lynch and easy lynches that are town are prime places for scum to vote, especially when the overall state of the game is slow.

What makes you think he was an easy lynch? He only had two votes on him at that time and I unvoted shortly after.

VOTE: SS
He switches his votes from people to people with very little reasoning and his responses' to Alchemist seem like scum.

Phone posting here.

VOTE: Something Smart

You have shown in the past that you do indeed have some reasoning, yet you seem to simply sheep MM. If you agree with MM's case, you should be able to give reasons why apart from simply "MM is confTown", as that doesn't make their reads more likely to be correct.

Why are you sheeping when you have reads of your own?

104 -1 BTD
135 -1 SS
152 -1 SS +1 Dray +1Raya
157 -1 SS
192 -1 Alch
193 -1 Alch
196 -1 Alch
197 -1 Alch
204 -1 Alch
205 -1 Alch
221 +1 SS +1Raya +1Dan +1Dray -1BTD -1Alch +1Alch
253 +1 Raya +1SS +1Dray +1Dan
312 +1 Alch +1SS
317 +1 Alch +1SS
348 -1 BTD
352 -1 BTD
363 -1 Raya

What are these posts for? I'm guessing the first 2 are to have all the votes in your ISO to run VCA or something? And I can't really tell what the 3rd post is supposed to be.

I actually see it as Towny that SS stepped in as the voice of reason to try to get Vedith and Draynth to understand each other. I think scum would have been happy to just let that conversation go on as it was.

And Vedith, even if you think someone is stupid, don't call them that or say you're treating them as a joke. It's toxic, and this game was thoroughly enjoyable before you started the personal attacks.

Read-wise Vedith on first glance leaves a bad taste in my mouth because of his BTD read going unexplained, and it's hard to tell if he's being difficult on purpose or if his meta read on BTD is something he has genuine faith in. His frustration from the Draynth supposedly distracting him from re-reading things looks Town to me, but I'm going to need an explanation for these 3 posts I quoted before I can really solidify that thought.

[Alchemist21]

So going by Mario being killed and his ISO, he was killed because town had shit reads, not because he had good reads.
Otherwise scum would have aimed to kill the Jailor or Tracker.

So, lets look at who had shit reads out of you guys.

Why do you think scum would have made a guess on one of the other PRs instead of just going for the guy who hardclaimed Friendly Neighbor, and why would reads even factor into a decision to kill a hardclaimed PR?

[Alchemist21]

So going by Mario being killed and his ISO, he was killed because town had shit reads, not because he had good reads.
Otherwise scum would have aimed to kill the Jailor or Tracker.

So, lets look at who had shit reads out of you guys.

Why do you think scum would have made a guess on one of the other PRs instead of just going for the guy who hardclaimed Friendly Neighbor, and why would reads even factor into a decision to kill a hardclaimed PR?

Vedith I still want you to answer this.

[Alchemist21]

Vedith I still want you to answer this.

Because the other PR is what will actually find them/disrupt them, not a neighbour.
I wasn't originally sure if that was a serious question and gave you the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't a serious question.

For now on, I'll take your questions as 100% serious.

I still don't understand how the whole reads thing factors into this. What you're saying about going for the disruptive PR makes sense, and I would get it if you were saying Mario was killed first because of his reads, but you're saying Mario was killed first because of everyone else's reads rather than his own which makes no sense.

[Alchemist21]

So going by Mario being killed and his ISO,

he was killed because town had shit reads, not because he had good reads.

Otherwise scum would have aimed to kill the Jailor or Tracker.

So, lets look at who had shit reads out of you guys.

I mean I get you're still working things out, I just don't get how you came up with the bolded statement, even as a first-guess assumption.

[Alchemist21]

So going by Mario being killed and his ISO,

he was killed because town had shit reads, not because he had good reads.

Otherwise scum would have aimed to kill the Jailor or Tracker.

So, lets look at who had shit reads out of you guys.

I mean I get you're still working things out, I just don't get how you came up with the bolded statement, even as a first-guess assumption.

Because killing Mario for his role alone night 1 makes no sense with another PR.
Unless of course, the scum weren't on the radar day 1.

I guess I can see where you're coming from here. I just disagree that scum would play the guessing game over killing the hardclaim and doubt anyone's reads were involved in that decision.

[Alchemist21]

Hungry and tired, ugh. I will return after my feast and nap, please give me all ur reads, explaining why, showing me posts, of who is scum and who is town. i'll come back and reread through again. Stopped at page 7.

If you just start at the beginning of this Day Phase and read from there you can see where everyone's at right now, then read D1 for more info afterwards. D2 so far is less than a 10 page read. That's assuming you aren't just trying to be lazy and keep saying you'll do something that never happens.

[Alchemist21]

BTD is at L-1

@Dany, why do you think BTD is still the best lynch at this point?

@BTD, are you ever going to put down a vote? What are you current thoughts on Serg and are you willing to lynch them?

[Alchemist21]

BTD is at L-1

@Dany, why do you think BTD is still the best lynch at this point?

@BTD, are you ever going to put down a vote? What are you current thoughts on Serg and are you willing to lynch them?

Curious though, why do you want to lynch me so bad?

Well aside from the points I had against Raya, you've come in and decided to do fuck all. And frankly I don't wanna hear this "I'm busy" excuse anymore, because:
A.) You replaced in. You knew then if you were gonna have the time or not.
B.) You're here and posting now and instead of giving that content you just spend time making excuses and asking others to post their content again while giving none of your own.

And to suggest Draynth is scum for wanting you to provide content and calling you out on undelivered promises is just icing on the cake here.

[Alchemist21]

I ruled out SS/BTD as a possible pair a while back. D1, look back at how SS pushed back on me when I started scumreading him, then look back at how he pushed back on BTD. The reactions are extremely similar. If SS is scum, then him treating both of us the same indicates we're both Town; if SS is Town then the reactions are genuine anyway and he obviously can't be scum with BTD.

It's weirding me out that as soon as this Day starts 2 people come out stating hard scumreads on me without saying why. I guess the suspicions were mentioned yesterday, but it doesn't explain the hard change. I think Vedith's the one that looks scummier here though. It looks like he's just following along with what Something_Smart is telling him.

Now I could go through and give reasons for why I can't be partners with anyone in this game, but it would mean giving a lot of self-meta that I don't think anyone should really trust anyway.

[Alchemist21]

I don't care if I look scummy.
Fact is, I was most likely Dray's target. Meaning that I did not make the night kill at least, meaning I have the least chance of flipping scum here.

So tell me, why should I not consider you as scum right now?

It's really on you to say why you should consider me as scum, which you have yet to do.

[Alchemist21]

It's really on you to say why you should consider me as scum, which you have yet to do.

POE.
Now tell me why you're not Scum.

My POE says I'm not.

[Alchemist21]

I was wondering what the chances of a BTD/Dany team were but since that vote happened I guess it's extremely unlikely at this point.

[Alchemist21]

Yesterday had its lulls but I don't think this Day Phase has been inactive. It's only been like a day and everyone's posted at least once.

[Alchemist21]

@Dany

Who do you think could be BTD's partner? Who do you think

couldn't

be his partner and why?

@BTD

Where are you at right now? Who do you see as the most likely to be scum? Who you think can't be partners together and why?

[Alchemist21]

Do you think it's unlikely that BTD would be sacrificed here

Kinda. I don't know why they'd go for their partner first instead of naming a Town partner and going for that. It could be that they're a team and this is their plan, but the vote came after you said something to Dany which makes it seem more unlikely to me.

[Alchemist21]

It just seems weird to me that scum needed only a slight poke to vote their buddy. Although if you do consider the 100% thing then maybe it makes sense.

Just on carryover from yesterday I'd lean toward Dany. Thing is I'm trying to figure out who makes sense as a team with either of them and that's where things are getting tricky.

I've already ruled out SS/BTD as a pair. SS/Dany was something I considered a while back, but there was a game-wide consensus on them which made me start thinking that was way off. I don't think SS can be partners with you for the way he's hounded you about re-reading me. That plus his Towny behaviour lately puts him off the table for me, so its an issue of figuring out what pair of Vedith/BTD/Dany makes sense. Part of what makes ruling your slot out of any teams difficult is that we let Gamma go for so long without giving proper reads so we only have your content to go on. The odds that you're scum keep going up imo, and I'm trying to figure out which of the other 2 makes sense as a partner or if I'm wrong on my first assumption and the team is BTD/Dany.

[Alchemist21]

Is that a scumclaim from you? Just because you had that Townread on BTD doesn't make you partners automatically. And don't you dare call my reads fake when getting any reasoning from you has been an uphill battle.

[Alchemist21]

I'm not saying BTD is 100% scum here. I'm still trying to figure out which one it is, or even if it actually is both. I want to see what those two have to say for themselves because I'm trying to be absolutely certain here.

[Alchemist21]

There you go ignoring my questions to you again.

[Alchemist21]

Ugh. Dany's response is so lackluster, but at least he gave some kind of response. BTD completely ignores me, but then answers Something_Smart's posts. I already had this issue with BTD back on D1 and now he's doing it again which makes me sure he's deliberately ignoring me. There's no way he's Town here.

VOTE: BTD

[Alchemist21]

There you go ignoring my questions to you again.

Ugh. Dany's response is so lackluster, but at least he gave some kind of response. BTD completely ignores me, but then answers Something_Smart's posts. I already had this issue with BTD back on D1 and now he's doing it again which makes me sure he's deliberately ignoring me. There's no way he's Town here.

VOTE: BTD

The only question I could find addressed to me is asking who I see as likely to be scum and who I think can't be partners.

1 question or 100, a question to you is still for you and not to be ignored, especially at lylo. There's no way you as Town thought that was ok.

I have already answered that I see iDanyBoy as practically confscum. As for partners, in principle anyone could be aligned with iDanyBoy. On the off chance that iDanyBoy is Town, I think neither you nor SS can be paired with Vedith (or scum would have quickhammered) so it must be you/SS. This is somewhat unlikely as you made posts within slightly over half an hour so you may have had a chance to quickhammer, but you/SS is possible as a scum pair if iDanyBoy is Town. Other than that, I will keep my vote on iDanyBoy.

If it was really me/SS we would have quickhammered a long time ago.

Please remove your vote. The moment the other scum logs on, Town loses. LyLo should certainly not be ending this early. We have over 10 days in which we must find scum. We should not simply waste 10 days by lynching a Townie.

Guess you were afraid they'd not hammer and you'd get found out as scum.

[Alchemist21]

I think neither you nor SS can be paired with Vedith (or scum would have quickhammered) so it must be you/SS.

Also, the association between BTD and Vedith now goes both ways. YesterDay's events weren't damning on their own, but now you have BTD saying Vedith can't be scum with me or SS because we would have quickhammered, yet completely ignores that fact to say me/SS can be a team. I'm pretty sure Vedith is BTD's partner.

[Alchemist21]

You did state your Dany scumread but you completely ignored the part of my question where I asked you about partners. You didn't acknowledge any of that post until after I voted you, and then you started singing like a canary. You were afraid you'd slip up, which is exactly what you did, isn't it?

[Alchemist21]

Which tells me you weren't even trying to solve the game, you were just trying to get that last lynch for the win.

[Alchemist21]

Please consider Alch/BTD6 more seriously than you have been. I don't want to lose to them.

760 is an act. He's going to end up voting Dany anyway because BTD's his partner. These are Vedith's proposed teams: BTD/SS and Alch/Dany. And he's saying we should be arguing why the people on the other team are scum, but I've already explained earlier this Day why BTD/SS doesn't make sense as a team. Votes rule out any other candidate for you, so you're confTown here. Don't fall for his act.

[Alchemist21]

There's just too much evidence pointing to BTD/Vedith. I was trying to double check on BTD/Dany earlier, even when I thought it was an unlikely team, which is why I asked questions to both of them. BTD slipped in his responses and gave away Vedith as his partner, creating the 2-way associative between them.

What's your personal opinion on Vedith/BTD? I don't know how you're not seeing it, or if you are seeing it and are just being overly cautious.

[Alchemist21]

I don't care if I look scummy.
Fact is, I was most likely Dray's target. Meaning that I did not make the night kill at least, meaning I have the least chance of flipping scum here.

So tell me, why should I not consider you as scum right now?

^This logic is actually so inane that I'm pretty sure it's town. That and Occam's razor keeps nagging me about Gamma's claim makes me comfortable calling Vedith town.

And 696 is a solid post. I have conflicting feelings on Alchemist which is one of the reasons I was annoyed that Vedith didn't do that reread.

This is your reason for Townreading Vedith. Why do you think scumVedith can't make a bs argument like this?

I Townread Gamma's claim too. I was the primary pusher of that Townread. But Gamma did

nothing

else since then. Vedith's made the slot scummier since he came in. At this point we have to consider the possibility that Gamma was faking his defeatist reaction to the L-1, and when you consider everything else, that's the explanation that makes sense.

The Townread of BTD6 was weird, and it got even weirder when Vedith asserted if he's scum it

has

to be with BTD. On its own there's a lot of WIFOM involved in it, but then when BTD slipped he made the interaction 2-way which is what solidifies them as a team.

Your reasoning for Townreading Vedith are mostly "he's too scummy to be scum" but that's not a good reason to Townread him. You need to consider the possibility that he's just bad scum, and it's clearly evident that scumVedith is what we're dealing with here.

[Alchemist21]

And Dany's read progression on BTD6 is literal trash.

A lot of his posts are trash tbh, not just the ones regarding BTD. When I was trying to sort these two earlier, what made it hard wasn't that they had a ton of associations with everyone, it's that they lacked associations with everyone.

But now we've seen their difference in responses to me. Dany just gave more of the same old same old, but he gave responses that have been typical for his play which gives a kind of consistency to his posts, and it gives me the sense that this is TownDany just posting normally without trying to slant. The posts are barebones but they seem to be straight up what he thinks. BTD ignored me at first, then when he did respond he got a lot more talkative than he's been and it gave away a lot of info that shows me that he and Vedith are scum.

[Alchemist21]

It's not too scummy to be scum, it's closer to too weird to be scum. Which is a thing.

Why are you not considering Dany scum a possibility?

It's still a 2-way association though. If it went 1-way I could see scum potentially setting up a false associative. But I can't see this coming from scum faking it on a 2-way.

[Alchemist21]

What is the Vedith end of the association? Just his meta townread on BTD6?

That and him asserting that he'd have to be scum with BTD. Scum would do that as WIFOM to either scare people away from seeing them as a team or making them see exactly that. When you add BTD's end of it, it becomes clear which one it is.

[Alchemist21]

I didn't panic. I refused to play by your rules because you're scum and because I'm not going to force a scumread on confTown SS just because you want me to.

[Alchemist21]

At lylo I don't think scum would have gone immediately for the bus attempt rather than wait it out a bit, and even if they did go for it I don't think the nudge from Vedith would have made the difference in when he voted BTD. BTD also only voted Dany because no quickhammer came down despite the scumread on the slot from the previous Day. If they were scum together that planned on bussing each other, they would have planned it out in the Night phase, and it would have gone down a lot smoother than it did here - Dany's vote wouldn't have been influenced by anyone else, and BTD would have cited the previous Day's reasons rather than just citing the lack of quickhammer.

Also it's always a plus to make your reads known before Night. It leaves behind your perspective on things for us to consider in case you die.

[Alchemist21]

I've said my peace, so if you have no more questions I've got nothing more to say.

[Alchemist21]

Alright. I'm just going to give it for everyone in the game.

Had I been scum with you, I would have backed off you and stayed off on D1. As scum I have a tendency to vote partners for scummy behavior but then back off when they show any sign of improving. You had shown signs of improving, but I thought it could be scum trying to adjust to what got them scumread. There's one time in memory where I've bussed a partner to a lynch on D1 and it's when they wouldn't stop doing the thing.

Inversely, had I been scum with Dany, I would have been a lot harder on him when he dropped that naked vote D1. It would have been a great chance to distance from him as scum. I challenged him on it but waited to see his explanation instead of just immediately going "OMG scum" and voting him.

With Gamma we were too friendly with each other. I don't like to buddy my partners and when I was Townreading him he was someone I tried to work with, hence the part where I left your wagon and started one on flubber with him.

With BTD, I would have let it go when they ignored me D1. Nobody else seemed to care about it, and as scum I would have just let them stay under the radar rather then keep trying to call attention to it. I was trying to get their thoughts on flubber's slot at the time to try and read BTD, and was really put off when they wouldn't answer me about it and they ignored me for so long that the info I was trying to get wasn't even useful anymore because it was a question about his current thoughts and a lot of time had passed before he ever acknowledged it.

[Alchemist21]

Inversely, had I been scum with Dany, I would have been a lot harder on him when he dropped that naked vote D1. It would have been a great chance to distance from him as scum. I challenged him on it but waited to see his explanation instead of just immediately going "OMG scum" and voting him.

How scummy did you think the naked vote actually was?

His initial reason for naked voting was that the person he voted dropped a naked vote. It was a blatant contradiction which made it scummy enough that as scum I would have been on it like a hawk. My response to the next quote will have more about this vote.

Actually this is maybe the thing I want answered most. (I'd still like you to answer the other one of course)
Alchemist, how does Dany's play make him town? I'd like you to stick to his slot as much as possible (so don't use PoE or associatives).

In a vacuum his play is fairly scummy, and I've touched on this in a previous post. Most of his posts are reactionary and say little, though in a way that's one of the things that point to him being Town. The way he's played has been fairly consistent. A lot of what he said was agreeing/sheeping as well, but he's never tried to claim those reasons as his own, and mixed with some of his own thoughts it gives a sense that what he's saying is what he actually believes. The D1 vote was weird, but it's weird as either alignment. The contradiction of naked voting a guy because he naked voted is kinda scummy, but then the post after that look like it came from Town - 173 has him basically saying the lack of reasoning was a reaction test, and in 162, 184, and 231 come off as him honestly not realizing the contradiction he was making and him realizing his initial assumption about MM's naked vote was flawed. It shows me he acted on an impulsive Town instinct and then re-evaluated when it was pointed out that he was wrong in his assumptions. The signs that he's Town aren't strong but they are there.

[Alchemist21]

With the barebones posts, as scum I think he'd be more careful about people seeing him as sheeping, especially after Raya pointed out it looked like he was sheeping me. He didn't stop agreeing with people and citing others' posts as reasons to scumread a player, and it makes me think it's because he genuinely believed in those reasons.

When you said something to him about that vote, you were the second person to do so (I was the first). Your 183 made reference to his 173 about why he was wrong, and that 173 was in turn a response to my 168, which also tried to explain to him why it was wrong. I guess it took 2 people telling him the same thing before it clicked for him.

[Alchemist21]

Let me check. I'm guessing scum had a way of figuring out he was JK.

[Alchemist21]

Why did you feel the need to claim at this point? I get that you want to pressure Alchemist but surely there are better ways to do that than to create a 50/50 chance that you're going to get NK'd on night 1 (Assuming that in the JK setup you get jailed).

Only thing I can see in any of his posts that would point to him being a JK is this assumption we were in the JK setup. It doesn't look like he ever softed any targets of his.

[Alchemist21]

Why did you feel the need to claim at this point? I get that you want to pressure Alchemist but surely there are better ways to do that than to create a 50/50 chance that you're going to get NK'd on night 1 (Assuming that in the JK setup you get jailed).

Only thing I can see in any of his posts that would point to him being a JK is this assumption we were in the JK setup. It doesn't look like he ever softed any targets of his.

Actually this might have been softing he was going to Jail MM, and if he did it means scum knew he was JK then and Roleblocked him.

[Alchemist21]

So why do you think scum chose to leave you alive?

If they thought Draynth was the JK they would have killed him over me. Beyond that it was probably because my pushes had all been wrong, and I was also the primary pusher of the Gamma Townread.

[Alchemist21]

That's your decision to make. I'm fine with it whenever you are.

[Alchemist21]

The number is still wrong though.

VOTE: BTD

[Alchemist21]

GG everyone! If nothing else this was fun.

[Alchemist21]

Yeah I blocked him both nights. I always check the setup at the start of games and saw it was explicitly stated my block beats his.

[Alchemist21]

Thanks for modding TB

[Alchemist21]

The longer and longer it took Something_Smart to hammer the more I had a feeling he was gonna surprise me with a Dany vote, even when it looked like he was leaning toward BTD.

[Alchemist21]

I underestimated a lot of things about you. Read the mafia PT, I acted under an assumption you were gonna be lynched D2. lol

[Alchemist21]

You have no idea how happy I am about this.
GG though, you two played well and I was very close to voting BTD6 for a while there. I think you underestimated my capacity for paranoia though

What sealed the deal on Dany for you?

(that's such a tonguetwister I couldn't even type it right).

[Alchemist21]

I was thinking what if you made it a Neighborizer instead of a Friendly Neighbor? As we saw with MM's claim, a FN claim gets treated as confTown anyway so that it's actual ability is kinda pointless and the roleblocker/Jailkeeper just exist to keep each other in check. Neighborizer gives the same claim benefit with the added ability of talking with your targets, and it also gives a point to the blocking abilities (scum can stop the neighborizer from getting neighbors, and JK can accidentally block them from doing it), and it's still an active power that the Tracker can see in that setup.

[Alchemist21]

There you are!

VOTE: Ari

[Alchemist21]

I swear RC just watches games and waits for the after-game water cooler talk.

[Alchemist21]

I swear RC just watches games and waits for the after-game water cooler talk.

Same

This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them!

[Alchemist21]

I gotta hear that story.