Micro 715: Friendly Neighbor 6 (Game Over)

[Alchemist21]

@BTD, is there a reason you've ignored all my previous attempts to engage you?

He seems to be in a posting mood so maybe he'll answer this time.

Which attempts? I don't see you engaging me since last time you mentioned.

Those are the times I'm talking about. You always ignored me.

[Alchemist21]

guys does anyone have any thoughts on my raya vote am i insane

Is the only reason because she called you a Town lean and not hard Town? That's more semantics imo, plus technically you aren't confirmed until you can send your message to someone, so I wouldn't immediately call her scum for having an ounce of skepticism.

[BTD6_maker]

Since 90 I have been trying to get more info, but when people start throwing out naked votes, and the other posts are people asking for reasons for those votes, it's pretty damn hard to get the reads I need. I may be the most vocal about it but I'm pretty sure a lot of others were tired of the lack of reasoning. Hard evidence of what actual reasons can do for the game state is right here in our conversation. We've added as much content this afternoon as has been added in the past 2 days, and it's because you gave reasons that can actually be discussed.

I see this as being slightly Town-motivated.

It seems like the Town reaction to want reasons behind a vote. Town want to know why someone is more likely scum, and need reasons from others who think someone is scum. Scum do not care about reasons. They just want any wagon on a Townie (most of the time).

Scum may not have pro-Town reasons for their vote. They may just be voting because they want to get that mislynch (of course, they won't admit to this). In this case, they will not be able to give pro-Town reasoning for their vote or, when pushed to give it, the reasoning is flimsy. Town should always have reasoning for their votes (obviously, excluding RVS). Town who vote without any reasons are playing anti-Town. If Town have reasons, they should always be able to give them. I can understand this thought process coming from Town.

I have a weak Townread on Alchemist.

So now that you're Townreading me are you going to start answering questions I ask you? I don't like being ignored.

This was that last time. What questions were you planning on asking me? I don't see any since then.

[Alchemist21]

Since 90 I have been trying to get more info, but when people start throwing out naked votes, and the other posts are people asking for reasons for those votes, it's pretty damn hard to get the reads I need. I may be the most vocal about it but I'm pretty sure a lot of others were tired of the lack of reasoning. Hard evidence of what actual reasons can do for the game state is right here in our conversation. We've added as much content this afternoon as has been added in the past 2 days, and it's because you gave reasons that can actually be discussed.

I see this as being slightly Town-motivated.

It seems like the Town reaction to want reasons behind a vote. Town want to know why someone is more likely scum, and need reasons from others who think someone is scum. Scum do not care about reasons. They just want any wagon on a Townie (most of the time).

Scum may not have pro-Town reasons for their vote. They may just be voting because they want to get that mislynch (of course, they won't admit to this). In this case, they will not be able to give pro-Town reasoning for their vote or, when pushed to give it, the reasoning is flimsy. Town should always have reasoning for their votes (obviously, excluding RVS). Town who vote without any reasons are playing anti-Town. If Town have reasons, they should always be able to give them. I can understand this thought process coming from Town.

I have a weak Townread on Alchemist.

So now that you're Townreading me are you going to start answering questions I ask you? I don't like being ignored.

This was that last time. What questions were you planning on asking me? I don't see any since then.

I don't have other new questions right now, and I've lost interest in the actual answers to the questions I asked then. The only question I have right now is why you didn't answer me back then?

[Alchemist21]

Since 90 I have been trying to get more info, but when people start throwing out naked votes, and the other posts are people asking for reasons for those votes, it's pretty damn hard to get the reads I need. I may be the most vocal about it but I'm pretty sure a lot of others were tired of the lack of reasoning. Hard evidence of what actual reasons can do for the game state is right here in our conversation. We've added as much content this afternoon as has been added in the past 2 days, and it's because you gave reasons that can actually be discussed.

I see this as being slightly Town-motivated.

It seems like the Town reaction to want reasons behind a vote. Town want to know why someone is more likely scum, and need reasons from others who think someone is scum. Scum do not care about reasons. They just want any wagon on a Townie (most of the time).

Scum may not have pro-Town reasons for their vote. They may just be voting because they want to get that mislynch (of course, they won't admit to this). In this case, they will not be able to give pro-Town reasoning for their vote or, when pushed to give it, the reasoning is flimsy. Town should always have reasoning for their votes (obviously, excluding RVS). Town who vote without any reasons are playing anti-Town. If Town have reasons, they should always be able to give them. I can understand this thought process coming from Town.

I have a weak Townread on Alchemist.

So now that you're Townreading me are you going to start answering questions I ask you? I don't like being ignored.

This was that last time. What questions were you planning on asking me? I don't see any since then.

There were like 2 attempts before this one that went ignored as well. That post you're quoting was a result of them going ignored.

[BTD6_maker]

It was mostly just that there were other things to respond to at the time. When you made the post I quoted, I didn't see anything specific you wanted me to answer.

[Alchemist21]

I mean I kinda wanted that one answered with a simple yes/no. My line of thinking was "Ok if he's Town and he thinks I'm Town then maybe he'll start wanting to work with me." But the ones before that were direct questions to you in an attempt to get a read on you so I don't know why you didn't want to respond to them. And then when I get absolutely no response to any of them I can't tell if you're just missing my posts or are deliberately choosing not to answer them.

[Alchemist21]

You're responding now, and coupled with your increase in posting volume I'd say you weren't lying about being busy and arbitrarily picking what you responded to, but I'm still curious to know why direct questions to you were skipped over early on.

[ThinkBig]

Official Vote Count

Something_Smart

(3): Alchemist21, iDanyboy, BTD6_maker

Raya36

(1): MarioManiac4

BTD6_maker

(1): Something_Smart

iDanyboy

(1): Flubbernugget

Not Voting

(3): Gamma Emerald, Raya36, Draynth

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-06-08 15:40:54)

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Raya36
I don't find him super scummy but we have less than 24 hours and I'm not lynching S_S.

[Draynth]

Holy crap I didn't realise the deadline was that close, doing my post now.

[Draynth]

Order is Town to Scum, Top to Bottom.

Spoiler: MarioManiac4 (As ConfTown as someone can be at this point in time)

Made you look

Spoiler: Alchemist21 (Strong TownLean)

Strong townlean on Alchemist at the moment. He's interacting with people, asking questions, trying to draw conclusions from the answers etc.
I also think it's important to note that I think Town players are more likely to get frustrated if people are refusing to engage with them.
I reckon scum would (usually) just let it slide and not want to get into too much of a debate over it and just stick with pushing on easier targets (If I'm wrong about this let me know, It's what I would probably do so that influences it a bit).
That being said I'm easily persuaded by people who just post walls / post a lot so I'll try to focus on the actual content of the posts

Spoiler: Raya36 (TownLean)

Raya seems to be interacting with people, asking questions, giving reasoning for opinions etc.
I disagree with her scumreads on Danny / Flubber, BUT I think her reasoning for the reads is good.

Spoiler: Something_Smart (Slight TownLean)

SS seems frustrated that he is struggling to scumhunt this game (or was, opinion may have changed) which to me is a good sign for now.
His last few posts have felt town-motivated to me.

Spoiler: Flubbernugget (Slight TownLean)

I think something that's been overlooked is the fact that Flubber made a good job of moving the game out of RVS pretty fast (Not just him on the Gamma wagon at the start but you get the idea) which to me seems town-motivated. Scum are probably happy to enough to just mess around for as long as possible.
I strongly dislike how unwilling / short Flubber has been about explaining his read on Danny, perhaps he sees something that he doesn't want to share, I think he's just being awkward for the sake of it. It's anti-town but I don't see scum doing it (Gut)

Spoiler: iDannyBoy (Slight Town Lean / Null)

I think I like what Danny has posted so far, there just hasn't been a whole lot (Ironic, right?).
At the very least he's giving reasoning for his opinions.

Spoiler: Gamma Emerald (Slight Scum Lean)

Gamma has been posting a lot. A lot of it has been off topic / joking (I have no issue with this, just pointing it out for my own sake.) The rest of the posts have been questions that haven't gone anywhere and statements with no real reasoning.
That's about it

Spoiler: BTD6_Maker (ScumLean)

I townread him at first (First 9 ISO posts or so) as he seemed to be interacting with people, questioning reasoning yada yada.
However, his last few posts haven't sat well with me.
Someone pointed out (I can't remember who, it was less than a page ago, leave me alone I'm tired) that he seems very eager to make sure people know that his ideas were independent (Despite saying he knew people had already made the exact same points). But, if a point has been made before then and it is made again, it

must

be unoriginal, no? (Not saying this is a bad thing, just pointing it out). Unless the point is actually different or presented in a different way I fail to see why he would care so much about trying to prove that he didn't just decide to agree with the ideas.
I believe Mario made the good point that many scum will try to pass off points as their own for Towncred instead of agreeing with the same points that have already been made, and I think this could hold true here.

Note: I did this by just going through people's ISO so apologies if there's any vital context missing anywhere, feel free to challenge

[Draynth]

VOTE: BTD6_Maker

Happy with this for now.

[Draynth]

Anyway I'm going to bed, I'll read the thread throughout the day and hopefully respond to some posts tomorrow evening.

[Gamma Emerald]

fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

[Alchemist21]

Anyway I'm going to bed, I'll read the thread throughout the day and hopefully respond to some posts tomorrow evening.

I had to resist the urge to vote you for making me look.

Also could you look back and my points about Something Smart and read our interaction and tell me what you think?

As for BTD, I get the point of him making such an effort of stating his thoughts were original despite them being the same points others made. It also felt like he was dodging my question when he actually did start responding to me. His latest posts though actually do give me the impression that he's Town not playing as well as he could, though I can still see why scum might do the things he's doing. Before today I would have compromised on him without much hesitation, but that's admittedly mostly because of the whole "he ignored me" thing and his latest posts are giving me pause.

Your first point on flubber is a fair point and something I didn't really think about before. I'm less sure on him now than I was but could probably still vote there.

I'm treating Gamma as obvTown since the RVS wagon happened, and while I disagree with you on the read there I looked back at your posts about him and can see where you're coming from.

I was gonna say something about you Townreading multiple people for the same generic reasons but from your phrasing it seems you realize it and that those reasons don't automatically make someone Town. It's also the kind of thing I wouldn't be surprised to see come from Town, especially if they had to go through multiple posts in a short time, so I'm thinking you're Town here.

[Something_Smart]

Hehe neither Draynth nor I are willing to trust BTD6 now. (For the uninformed)

@Smarty BTD's reponse to the wagon on him feels very levelheaded and I think that suggests town that knows it isn't a big deal

Isn't that how BTD6 always plays though? How would you expect him to respond as scum?

(That said, I do like how he responded by continuing to question me.)

I was aware that you had answered multiple times. I considered your answers unsatisfactory at that point, and my post shows that.

Your post missed the point though. I wasn't agreeing with Mario's reasoning per se, I was more following him because he was someone I knew I could trust. And so while what you said was true, it wasn't really relevant. And it certainly didn't address what you thought was unsatisfactory about my answers.

After I had asked, you did give some reasoning about why MM is more likely to have correct reads than a random player. This point does make sense (although it is somewhat weak; MM's reads aren't that much better than a random player).

You didn't give any reasoning on why MM's reads are more accurate than your own. You are confirmed Town to yourself, so you can trust your reads. If you trust MM's reads more than yourself, you need reasoning for why you agree with those reads specifically.

The reason I felt Mario's reads were more accurate than my own is because mine were exceptionally weak, whereas Mario had displayed a normal amount of confidence in his reads.

Suppose MM had the exact opposite reads from their actual reads. Would you still trust them because they are confTown? If not, what makes you trust the reads as they are currently?

Bearing in mind that this refers to my mindset in the past (as now I do have some decent reads), my answer would have been yes.

Alchemist, do you still think 336 applies? Do you still feel that I'm trying to avoid forming reads?

[Alchemist21]

Yes it still applies because it's still a thing that happened. What 336 is getting at is that you failed to demonstrate the most basic of Town thought. In the past I have misread Town for not playing optimally, but I was expecting them to think like 2 or 3 levels deep. Any Town player would have thought to follow on their own suspicions, so the way I see it you lacked that thought process because you were never Town. You look like you're starting to form reads, but I can't really give Town points for you doing something after getting called out on not doing it because that could easily be scum adjusting.

[Something_Smart]

So you don't believe that it's possible for any town player to not have any reads strong enough to vote 14 pages into the game?
Or you don't believe that it's possible for a town player to recognize that their weak suspicions are probably no better than random?

[Alchemist21]

I don't believe that it's possible for a Town player to think sheeping is a better solution to advancing the game or fixing their no reads issue than going on their own suspicions. How is using someone else's reads supposed to fix your own? If you're going for reactions, what reactions do you expect to get from blindly sheeping?

And your first question there is a dumb one because I straight up said in the 336 you just linked that I can understand someone having a hard time forming reads. That you didn't have reads wasn't my issue, it was how you decided to go about "fixing" the issue.

[Something_Smart]

I don't believe that it's possible for a Town player to think sheeping is a better solution to advancing the game or fixing their no reads issue than going on their own suspicions. How is using someone else's reads supposed to fix your own? If you're going for reactions, what reactions do you expect to get from blindly sheeping?

I wasn't trying to do something in order to fix my own reads. My entire point was that when people do things I think I can read, then I'll read them. I never had any intention of specifically getting people to do things that I could then read (because I know from experience that that never works well), though ironically that's exactly what I did.

And your first question there is a dumb one because I straight up said in the 336 you just linked that I can understand someone having a hard time forming reads. That you didn't have reads wasn't my issue, it was how you decided to go about "fixing" the issue.

I wasn't trying to fix the issue. I was trying to vote scum. I expect the average townie's reads to be at least marginally better than random. I didn't expect my reads at that time to be better than random (scumreads anyway, and Mario wasn't voting one of my townreads). I knew Mario was town. Therefore, I figured that the best bet to vote scum was to vote who he was voting, until I found better reads.

Why do you think I would intentionally shun forming any scumreads as scum (thus drawing attention), when I could certainly have fabricated some?

[ThinkBig]

Prodding Flubbernugget

[Flubbernugget]

Sorry, catching up now

[Flubbernugget]

That came out wrong rofl.

I think you know what I meant though: you shouldn't just decide that "I should have some scumreads of X strength now" and then have them.

I expect town to be a lot more frustrated if the two "strengths" don't align

[Raya36]

Raya, what do you think "townlean" means?

Sorry, probably should have clarified that. You are nearly confirmed town I just didn't want to make my list any more confusing by having a townlean section and a town section. Didn't mean to make it look like I was strongly questioning you being town.