Micro 729: C-C9 Mafia | Game Over

[chamber]

Is there a breaking strategy in this? I haven't actually done the math yet. Just seems like nolynching a few times could give a lot of info.

[chamber]

im not sure if you should talk about the breaking strategy if you rolled scum this game chamber.

That's why I didn't think about it too hard yet. Didn't want to get too SAD if I rolled scum.

[chamber]

What gave you that impression Edo? Did I lie to you before or something?

[chamber]

I feel like the games work best moving at a certain pace and you guys are moving it along fast enough if not too fast already. I'm perfectly happy to be loose with my vote when others aren't being.

Anyway

Vote: Realeo

Real scum found.

[chamber]

It's his first post more than his second, I just wanted to see a bit more from edo before I voted.

[chamber]

VOTE: gork

you guys are fast!

For the Edo comment? Had me scratching my head a bit too.

[chamber]

It's his first post more than his second, I just wanted to see a bit more from edo before I voted.

What was wrong with his first post and what were you looking for from edo

Posts happened while I was posting, so by the time I had read Realto's post in question and was thinking about it, Edo had made his unvote move. It seemed really forced to me. I wanted to see how that ended up developing, mostly on Edo's end.

[chamber]

what exactly is your expectation of my earlygame bella?
because the only thing i'll concede is that im trying not to goof around as much.

Doesn't this just sound like something scum would be worried about? The emphasis on what's conceded.

[chamber]

I disagree, if no lynching is optimal you want to do it with as little other noise as possible. Scum aren't the only one that can drop tells. And I already said why I mentioned it in my first post (or at least indirectly did). I didn't want to think through how broken this setup actually was before rolling town, because it seems quite broken. The theory discussion is also a bit of a carry over from some in sitechat during signups. You weren't around for it but Gork was.

[chamber]

i really feel like you of all people should understand why i feel like being more serious in this game.
):<

I don't think the sentiment of wanting to be more serious is scummy though? It's just the way things were phrased.

[chamber]

Well that certainly didn't give me any reason to move my vote.

Do you think scum myko antagonizes someone not voting him while at L-1?

[chamber]

The theory discussion is also a bit of a carry over from some in sitechat during signups. You weren't around for it but Gork was.

I get you are baiting me here, but for one you claim to know nothing and ask of other people, yet already discussed the game before the game started.

The discussion then ended with the open question I posed here. It was never answered.

[chamber]

In my experience, theory talk early on is NAI. It's not like they were they could derail RVS just by mentioning it.

Not the point. It's so you can say nothing of value (while giving the impression you do) while looking where the game is headed. I dont mind the subject, I mind the passivity it implies.

The thing that annoys me a bit about this isn't your underlying suspicion. I agree that it can be a scumtell, I just don't care as town. But, do you actually think I failed to engage the town after posing it? Surely I could have waited 5 minutes without posting and divided into the game all the same if my goal was to only do nothing?

[chamber]

Yes but then I don't have to complain about faking activity, I can just claim you lurked when you do it often enough!

What sample are you using for lurking? I tend to be hyperactive in games when I'm engaged. This includes most games when they start (see here).

[chamber]

Vote Papa Vito

Realto have you ever been mafia on MS?

[chamber]

Twice on solid. Both victory
Once on multi. Loss.

I don't fully understand by the terms used here. If they are on MS can you link them? Thank you.

I mean, that's not what the original point looked like to me, but sure. I apologize.

Even still, talking strategy hasn't been alignment indicative in my recent experiences. If anything, right at game start is when you would want to talk about theory before you could actually derail something or can see how the game is headed. Realistically, what advantage would chamber have to stall for such a short period? P-Edit, you suggest they would lurk, but that's not what happened here. If you mind passivity when it comes to early-game chatter, I don't see passivity from chamber here.

I don't like this post but that's properly one for tomorrow. Night.

I wouldn't be too upset with eso defending Chamber, it is p much the first reasoning out there and that does tend to be divisive. But it's a sign. What does make me suspect him is the appeacing tone of the first sentence. If he thinks that's not what I said, you can drive that home if you really think I'm wrong. He's sorry about... what exactly? This makes me feel that I'm being buddied now already just because there's a wagon on me. I'm not that desperate for friends, yet.

Can you answer my question about lurking? I also don't think Edo's post is actually weird at all if you read the full chain. I don't like that you admitted it from you post.

[chamber]

I don't fully understand

what you meant/b] by ....

omitted*

I shouldn't post when this tired.

[chamber]

Yes but then I don't have to complain about faking activity, I can just claim you lurked when you do it often enough!

I misunderstood what you meant by this. I thought it was an oddly phrased accusation that I lurk too much, but I see what you actually meant now.

[chamber]

Twice on solid. Both victory
Once on multi. Loss.

I'm actively trying to not flood the thread, but can I get your comments on this post Myko?

[chamber]

Twice on solid. Both victory
Once on multi. Loss.

I'm actively trying to not flood the thread, but can I get your comments on this post Myko?

Oh my gosh it's a spamposter. Nuuuuuu

Ok, how I read it (but I kind of wanted to see where that went to see if I understood it properly) is that he typo'd solo and is a tiny bit proud. I think I can say without being insulting that English isnt his first language, given it's the same for me. So he answered your question and wanted to state that he's good at the game, but 2 out of 3 games win isn't too nice: however in the 3rd he felt cheated because it was multiball and that's not a "real" game. Maybe he got crosskilled, idk.

I don't see all that much relevance on this game here, other than that if he's scum he'll be the confident kind, with or without reason. This is rather a different playerlist after all.

Gork ruined a bit of my fun, but I wasn't talking about what was said. Do you have anything more with that in mind?

[chamber]

Vote Realeo

@myko: If you based your expectations of my play based on my out of mafia person, you are going to be largely confused. I've had lots of experience with mafia, and some particularly key ones that shape how I play. I'm not some new player whose personality dictates everything. For instance, I remember one Faraday and Hoopla scum game that made me realize calling scum out on things too early just gives them room to deny it and stop the behaviour before its a truly established pattern or etc. In the case of Realeo Gork's been direct about it now, so I'll just say, I think he's been active lurking much worse than I did. He's still contributed no real opinion to the game. I made 1 post like that. The fact that you are bothered about it for me and not Realeo is something I found interesting which is why I was poking you about it. And I'm only saying that because I don't think you are scum here, just being bad.

[chamber]

I don't feel like explaining each of my posts individually, that's a trap, but I don't think you correctly interpreted a single post you call out in your response to Gork. Perhaps you should reread them? The only outside context needed for 1 of them is that I think calling Gork scum early is funny.

[chamber]

For instance, I remember one Faraday and Hoopla scum game that made me realize calling scum out on things too early just gives them room to deny it and stop the behaviour before its a truly established pattern or etc.

Bullshit.

It's plenty clear you suspect Realeo. That series of posts signifies it. You aren't hiding anything, but don't actually manage to be clear about it either. It's the worst of both worlds if you were town.

Hmm. No, that's the point. The best of both worlds.

[chamber]

I think he's been active lurking much worse than I did.

How do you call me actively lurking when the game doesn't even 1 day old?

I'm not claiming bella is lurking, or that of the people that haven't posted at all either. But when you are clearly around and not engaging the game, what else is it to be called?

Vote Papa Zito

[chamber]

I mean, that's not an answer here. As I said, I'm not calling out the people who haven't posted at all. You are free to be much less active than you've been without me commenting about you lurking. But I don't think you've made a single meaningful post.

[chamber]

Such action analysis based on Chamber's first post? Waaaaay too early.

Well that means you'll play like the rest of the game. Waiting for something to happen.

You make something happen. This is where people still can fail to enter the game properly, this is where scum isn't settled yet. The people who are worried that w/e they post isn't good enough and like you, bella, zito, chamber, it's all nice and easy to take potshots at theories that can't have much substance. And you can't all be scum but all of you are being annoying and just trying to drag the game to a stop. If you don't discuss small things you can't let that grow.

So stop being such a .. bella would hate me for that and actually write something you think. Prove to me you aren't the scum in that group.

What did you get out of making this post?

[chamber]

Answer me first and then I'll answer you.

[chamber]

Vote Mykonian

[chamber]

Chamber isn't the person to be overloaded in 4 pages. Don't overanalyse it, it's just a crap vote.

And I do resent being the annoying one of the two here. I'm here to talk. Chamber pretends to have a strategy in which other people are supposed to talk to him and he'll solve the game from there, while giving us soft nudges in the right direction or something. It's bull.

That's not my claim at all. In a decent player list, which this is, I'd advocate everyone solving the game for themselves with as little crosstalk about the actual solving process as possible. Me talking and engaging people is just my process of 'solving' the game.

I've held that belief for longer than you've been on site.

[chamber]

@Chamber: How do your scumread develops from "the first post" into active lurking accusation. It feels jumpy so something must happen in the between with me?

I read the ISO of a bunch of your town games, couldn't find any scum ones, asked for them, then also read the ISO of your scum games. Any jumpyness is likely caused by updated in opinion based on such readings.

[chamber]

I'd rather not talk about it. I wouldn't call this anything as significant as a meta dive either. I was just trying to better establish a grounding for you as a player. I wasn't focused on tells or etc.

[chamber]

I think that vote is the most self evident one I've made.

[chamber]

Not really.

Here's a second question for you to answer : Every time you no longer scumread someone, you vote Papa Zito. me checked your iso and you never explain it. Talk, please.

Actually, I kinda like this post. Ignore what I said about lacking content.

And to clarify, I wasn't calling him a lurker, just lacking initially.

Whats good about this question?

[chamber]

Can we get a prod on BTD6_Maker? I'm not sure he's realized the game has started.

[chamber]

The notion that I haven't been scumhunting is really silly to me. I've made like 2 posts not directly related to either defending myself or scumhunting out of over 30.

Re: BTD6_Maker, I forgot we had gotten a day start PM. I don't have an issue with someone not posting for as long as he has, I just saw him on the site a couple of times and found it strange that he didn't post here then.

[chamber]

It irritates me that chamber kept dodging my question yet he advocates people talk.

The first question I dodged on your behalf. The one about zito is just really boring. Don't you think I'd have said something about that unprompted if I wanted to?

[chamber]

He hasn't jumped at anything all game long!

I also don't like the ! here.

[chamber]

Oh, no. If it's not clear me voting for Zito when I had was because I thought he was the best vote in those situations. It wasn't a stand in for an unvote.

[chamber]

and I don't think it covers his attention to parts that aren't core to the game.

When you say this do you mean that I'm paying attention to setup speculation and activity of players in addition to the game itself? Because I can be attentive of multiple things at the same time, and have put very little energy towards those. Or do you mean that you think the things within the game that I'm questioning about seem irrelevant to you? In which case my rebuttal is that scum are most likely to make mistakes in areas they think of as irrelevant.

[chamber]

We should No Lynch in order to farm Cop results, and everyone should pretend to be a Cop at the start of each day. Discuss.

People seem to be focused on trying to lynch, when in this setup this seems to be a bad idea. It is usually bad to No Lynch, but not here. I have broken a setup wide open before (indeed, depending on what you count, I have done it twice, though that time was due to scum accidentally throwing the game in the opening post).

You are probably right, but I'm of gorks mind. I want to play a game not break a setup.

[chamber]

I haven't run the math to know if it's suboptimal. I just don't care too much.

[chamber]

Whatever.

VOTE: Chamber

1) His questions alot of the time are nudging towards painting others as scum instead of trying to figure out alignment
2) Dodging questions (ex. Realeo's and Tenshii's)

I asked Chamber "What did you think of Gork's hypoclaim proposal from pre-game?" without outting any reads because I wanted Chamber's answer to be as unbiased as possible. I wanted to see if Gork's proposal was unbiased and truly what he thought was optimal or possibly came from a scum perspective.

Hypoclaiming, IME, can be exploitable by scum. I haven't thought of setup strategy too hard. But off the top of my head, it's optimal (but not necessarily what scum will do) to nightkill any hypoclaim that's on a townie. This increases the chances of killing a real cop's report on another cop. There's also standard hypoclaim exploits when only one cop is alive.

The reason I kept persisting on questioning myko is because it's very easy to abandon reads post-flip. His two main scumreads are Chamber and Tenshii yet he's unwilling to mention teams. As scum, if one were to flip town, it's very easy to just continue pushing the 2nd read the next day.

This setup has a sane and insane cop, so that takes care of itself, but even then as long as the townies rolled on a weighted table to figure out how to fake claim it could be taken care of.

[chamber]

How about voting for myko Gork?

[chamber]

Wanting to interact isn't the same as a willingness to interact about anything. As a very obvious example, if you asked if I were a cop or not I'd also not answer that question.

[chamber]

I think you(pedit: realeo)'re town. I'd be interacting with Zito but it's the weekend and he's not around.

[chamber]

He's scum faking bluster.

[chamber]

if you think it was me buddying you there you have a very strange perspective of things.

put it this way, you said what I wanted to hear in a town that I'm struggling to deal with. I desperately want you to be my friend, yet how often do I not find I find the wrong type of friends

myko why do you seem so on edge

The game is not doing what I want it to do. I like action. I know everybody does, it's an obviousity (that's not a word is it). I like being part of it too?

Put it this way: my better functioning scumtells work off wagons shifting. I have little to work with and I feel there's too many posts that I would just love to get away with if I were scum. Say, BTD's, that has to be the easiest two posts to make as scum. Didn't have to antagonise anybody, seems perfectly reasonable given it was more or less discussed already, didn't have to take a single risk. I know nothing about him and I don't want it to stay that way.

I do feel rather impotent at fixing this however. I can try to get chamber to move out and get challenged on his scummy behaviour, but just realeo is picking that really up, and all it has really done is make chamber stubborn which is more of a chamber tell than a scumtell. I think even chamber would have agreed in a game where I hadn't called him out early to talk about Zito (whether chamber would be scum or town then). He passes that question now because he doesn't want to talk about anything anymore when that became a topic of discussion, I think. If Chamber manages to end up town I think I misplayed my interaction with him, because I suspect it might have closed him down more.

I get some silent agreements from you on tenshii, but you don't feel like pressing on and see what's what. I'm not on edge, I'm trying to create a situation where I'll have more to work with and I can't see how to create it with these players.

So, do you want to talk about Tenshii's vote? I think there's some interesting parts to that post, not just related to his vote.

Everything about this post is wrong.

[chamber]

Whats the objective of scum myko? And then I invite everyone to think about how Myko's post goes about achieving that compared to the posts he calls out as achieving it.

[chamber]

Myko, what made you go from thinking Gork is buddying you to thinking he's town? The most recent claim that he's being reasonable seems insufficient given that your reason for doubting him has been stated as him being the only reasonable one.

[chamber]

Your understand of when I will or wont answer something seems to be fundamentally flawed despite me laying out my reasoning previously. Though at the same time I suspect you don't actually want an answer to that question and that it's rhetorical. My answer is simple though, a blindspot you are aware of isn't a blindspot.

You can go in the townpool.

This post feels definitive. Like you are now not considering him as possibly buddying you despite an appearance of self awareness over your 'blindspots' previously. Why the change?

[chamber]

When you run into something that you don't know how to interpret, what is your course of action?

[chamber]

We aren't no lynching. The strategy was only viable before people spoke this much. Now at least one cop is obvious and is getting nightkilled. Which ruins the whole thing.

[chamber]

I don't think any of this makes BTD scum and am confused by those assertions. If he believes he has a breaking strategy, other than communicating it more clearly, he's playing as he should be.

[chamber]

@BTD: You should start engaging the game from other angles bud, we are lynching and you want to be part of that.

[chamber]

except the hypoclaims arent necessarily useful if cops target the same person, or if a cop dies or if a cop target dies or if a cop target dies the night after. youre also taking away town's strongest tool in the game by not lynching twice in a row. if you want me to consider doing that put the fucking math in and prove to me that its actually WAY BETTER/actually broken because from where im standing if we lynch scum on d1 its actually way more broken for this setup than no lynching and hoping that things work out ideally which they probably wont.

It's only not lynching once. It's trading a lynch and a nightkill for 2 nightkills. You aren't the first to have gotten this wrong, zito also tried to spin it this way.

[chamber]

Either way, we are No Lynching today and tomorrow.

No lynching twice isn't throwing away 2 lynches, it's throwing away 1.

[chamber]

And this specific choice of topic doesn't bother you at all.

I don't understand this point.

[chamber]

its putting the power of both of those deaths into scum's hands.

But scum would have already had that power for 1 of them.

Start with 9 lynch once, nightkill once -> 7, town controlled 1 kill, scum controlled 1 kill.

Start with 9, no lynch, nightkill, no lynch, nightkill -> 7, scum controlled 2 kills.


You give up 1 lynch.

[chamber]

You are forcing him to prove it by calling him scum for believing it. What else do you expect him to do?

[chamber]

What? I'm not advocating for the strategy, I'm advocating for him to engage the game. I'm not happy that he's not engaging the game. I just don't think being minimalist in engaging the game is scummy when you are advocating a strategy that depends on town roles remaining hidden.

[chamber]

You are forcing him to prove it by calling him scum for believing it. What else do you expect him to do?

Drop the nonsense and play mafia?

If there's actual math involved why the hell is that only being conjured up now. Surely all that reasoning existed when he came up with the Grand Plan. Surely he's not just making shit up on the fly.

right

Of course there is actual math. I doubt he's run the numbers and is operating off of gut. Same thing I was in post 1. I was too lazy to run the numbers past realizing that getting to day 3 with 5 results (including the 2 cops) is a guaranteed auto win, and that it could be an auto win with as few as 4, but I believe 3 is the most likely outcome. 3 is no better than just lynching. Unfortunately again, I think this all got taken off the table when 1 of the cops made themselves super obvious.

[chamber]

I'm not advocating for the strategy, I'm advocating for him to engage the game. I'm not happy that he's not engaging the game.

given that you are explaining away problems for him, I doubt this. This:

@BTD: You should start engaging the game from other angles bud, we are lynching and you want to be part of that.

isn't a complaint. It's you coaching and I don't like the tone of it one bit.

If I was happy with him not engaging the game why would I be telling him to engage the game? I don't think he's scum for it. There is space to no think hes scum for it, but still be unhappy with his play.

[chamber]

I'm not bending at all. I think you are scum so it's not surprising that you are pulling accusations out of your ass, but if you are town you don't understand what I'm saying. Full stop.

[chamber]

Nah, it's what you don't say. I press you twice on the fact that btd takes one single deviation from his nonengagement, he comments on one scenario, to defend himself by proxy, and twice you refrain from comment to keep your positive outlook of him intact. There's no confusion.

I ignored it because it doesn't make any sense to me? I don't think he's done anything that I'd define as engaging the game.

[chamber]

Realeo, it looks as though Mykonian is worse here. Mykonian seemed to be pushing Chamber at first simply for posting about theory and a possible breaking strategy (and there is one) in RVS. This does not imply scum. Instead, posting about breaking strategies is a lot more likely to come from Town. If you are Town and discover a breaking strategy, you want to say it in order to win. If you are scum, you would keep it to yourself in order to stop Town from using it against you. I may go into more detail later.

Either way, we are No Lynching today and tomorrow.

Is this the post you mean? I don't even know.

[chamber]

How much of that is V and how much of it is LA?

[chamber]

You've barely posted at all and are now posting a V/lA for 40% of the remaining time. I'm tempted to just lynch you if you are going to be even less active during that period.

[chamber]

@chamber

can you skim myko in these and tell me what you think?
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=64215
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=69509

Before reading these specific games, I've already Meta skimmed myko and am still happy with my vote. Will read these though.

[chamber]

re game1: I was like wow this really seems like myko in this game, maybe I misjudged him if this is town. Wasn't him as town.

[chamber]

Yeah so, the main point of commonality that I see between his scum game and here, is how he is always reaching conclusions and never seems like he's seeking answers. It's not a natural play pattern for scum and I don't see it in his town games. I wasn't looking at level of verbosity at all.

He also triggered one of my secret tells(tm) in that scum game and this one.

If I had to guess I'd guess scum with bella this game.

[chamber]

er, sorry, not a natural play pattern for town*

[chamber]

@Chamber: I'm not in capacity in meta dive. Does town!myko asks question?

I haven't done an indepth meta dive on him to be clear. I skimmed some of his games to make sure he wasn't obviously like this in all of his games. IMO he isn't. With that said I don't think it's as simple as "does he ask questions?". He seems to prefer making statements as both alignments, big style clash between the 2 of us that's real. But he still seems to be seeking to learn as town.

[chamber]

Look at this, people actually using meta on me. I'm impressed.

Indeed, I don't play the same as scum or town. Why bother, nobody looks.

Chamber's stock is rising, cheet. You should buy.

like, what would have been the town way to go about that?
would town him have gone through all of the pros and cons of what town would do vs scum would do? why is it not just him taking a step back and thinking "what will scum do to fuck with whats going on?"?
are you actually confident that scum is more likely to do that than town or are you just spitballing here?

Do you see the town point of view turn up in his post at all?

Even if your first thought is how it could go horribly wrong through a certain line of scum's, how's not your next thought: "well how can I fix this".

In this case, say you predominantly direct people to target their scumreads. For one, you get a claim situation where you can criticise people, the second, you avoid tenshii's line.

And it's dead obvious first solution (if scum follow his strategy, they shoot in their mislynch pool), but he doesn't even give it a thought. I don't know if it's

the

solution, but then you can talk about it.

I don't understand how you can look at a post that makes the choice to think about the setup, and the only features the scum side of things, no interest in advancing what town could do about it, and consider this perfectly fine. It's as unnatural as it gets.

You're literally doing what you're pushing me for. Why aren't you continuing off of my thought process and trying to figure out a solution to fix it?

I did. Was the post too long? Try again.

Does it seem like there is any thought behind this post?

[chamber]

Yeah so, the main point of commonality that I see between his scum game and here, is how he is always reaching conclusions and never seems like he's seeking answers. It's not a natural play pattern for scum and I don't see it in his town games. I wasn't looking at level of verbosity at all.

He also triggered one of my secret tells(tm) in that scum game and this one.

If I had to guess I'd guess scum with bella this game.

I read the town game before making this post. I had actually already read that one though. The specific scum one I skipped because I avoid replacement games as a rule when looking for meta on players.

BTD didn't just announce a 4 day break from the game, and seemed to be starting to engage (if only on his own limited axis). There is a stark difference there.

[chamber]

You can claim to think whatever you want.

[chamber]

I retract my proposed myko/bellaslot pairing.

[chamber]

I've never claimed to have a town read on BTD? I just think the attacks on him have been unfounded. If I give you the benefit of the doubt for a moment, and I suspect this is the last time I will do so this game, you were being very obtuse in how you talked about it. You didn't talk about him being self serving, you talked about a contradiction in my thoughts that apparently arose from him interacting with the game once and me not addressing it. Him talking more about theorycrafting and why it's good isn't a meaningful non-theory interaction. I still don't really understand your initial point as you said it.

[chamber]

Chamber in this game is not a friendly guy. (context)

I also disagree with this. I think the only person I've started openly unfriendly with is tenshii, and that's because his level of posting(quality not just quantity) + then announcing a 4 day absence legitimately upsets me.

[chamber]

Though, and perhaps this is the strongest rebuttal to your point and I got a bit caught in your flow for not raising it before; Even if he had posted some giant post engaging the game, my thought wouldn't have been "Oh he's engaging the game, how scummy of him". It would have been "Great, hes engaging the game and not being so hung up on the theory angle".

[chamber]

But he still seems to be seeking to learn as town.

Can you elaborate on this? How does myko "seeking to learn" if (s)he doesn't ask question? Idontgetit.

Have you read any of myko's posts this game and thought that myko was actually trying to learn anything? Or do his positions already seem set in every post?

[chamber]

But he still seems to be seeking to learn as town.

Can you elaborate on this? How does myko "seeking to learn" if (s)he doesn't ask question? Idontgetit.

Have you read any of myko's posts this game and thought that myko was actually trying to learn anything? Or do his positions already seem set in every post?

No. I'm talking about his town meta that you researched. I'm trying to figure out if myko is in confirmation bias (because it is a thing) or just weeeeeeeeee...

This is what I mean when I said I didn't meta dive myko. I wasn't building scum and town profiles for him when I read some of his games in ISO. That takes a lot more effort than I put in. I found him scummy in this game for a reason, and I made sure I didn't also see it in his games where he was town that I read. That's about it. I can't make any strong claims about myko's town meta.

[chamber]

He's ESL.

[chamber]

I think theres a very fair argument that zito's been overly reactive and not very proactive. What Proactive thing can you name that he's done outside of his initial BTD vote basically.

[chamber]

Step 1: stop talking about doing the math.
Step 2: start talking about the game.
Step 3: provide the final solution at some point in the future.
Step 4: be sad that we aren't no lynching because a cop is obvious.

[chamber]

If his point is that you've been too reactive, I agree with him. I'm unsure if that's his point.

[chamber]

I'm covering the same content, I'm framing it a bit differently with my summation.

[chamber]

Medium-High. I also just think his presence is destructive even if he's town, so I haven't been motivated to reach a higher degree of certainty.

[chamber]

I disagree, I think talking town reads is quite a good idea in helping the cops determine who needs to be investigated, and loses a lot of its detriment when the scum need to be cop hunting with their kills anyway (or so I suspect without running numbers).

[chamber]

Has your opinion about zito changed at all quilford? Can you go into a bit more about edo?

[chamber]

the fail to kill result is great. we still have a mislynch. If they counter claim we can lynch from that pool. If they don't, we can lynch based on one of their results(or if they have one on each other~).

[chamber]

I wish encryption was allowed just so I could claim the cop for posterity.

[chamber]

I only skimmed your code, but it looked like you counterclaim timing assumption was wrong?

[chamber]

Anyway, more talk about how terrible myko and zito are.

[chamber]

Put it this way, I am not 100 percent sure chamber is scum. Not even 80 percent.

I would very rarely claim that I was 80% sure about a scum read. If I'm above 50% I'm pretty excited. Where DO I fall on your scale?

[chamber]

Quilford, if you had to vote for 1 of edo, tenshi, btd which would it be?

[chamber]

Tenshii probably. BTD not too far a second.

Vote: Tenshii

[chamber]

You trust Quilford enough to drop your myko hate?

I don't understand this move.

I still think myko is the most likely scum. No movement is happening on that front. He just ignores any further questions I ask of him and you guys aren't willing to vote him.

I'd rather not go to day 2 with 3 sacs of wasted space, the scum wont kill them (either because they are scum or useless town), and someone will have to make this choice in endgame anyway.

I don't trust quilford enough to make the choice, I'm using it to inform my opinion on quilford. I have nothing better to go off of when choosing between the three.

[chamber]

You are voting tenshii, would you be sad if a flashwagon or deadline crunch happened on tenshii instead of myko? Do you feel its healthy to have the deadline force the activity needed to get a lynch?

[chamber]

Do you think time was used effectively over the last 24h?

[chamber]

Myko, let's make the assumption that the chamber lynch isn't happening today, for whatever reason. Where do you go from here?

I'm kind of surprised at your take on my move given this post?

[chamber]

Myko, let's make the assumption that the chamber lynch isn't happening today, for whatever reason. Where do you go from here?

I'm kind of surprised at your take on my move given this post?

I don't follow.

My actions are me answering the slightly different question "make the assumption that a myko lynch isn't happening today"

[chamber]

I assume the reason you asked that question is because you felt the same malaise that I did about the current state and trajectory of the game (that is to say its lack of one). I took action on that, you took action on that (or asked myko about his potential action, which is itself a weak form of action). So I guess I'm a bit skeptical of your skepticism.

[chamber]

@Chamber: Yes and no. You'll note my vote didn't move, for example.

That just makes me more suspect. I still can't see a motivation for what you did outside of what I said before, but it's a very weak attempt at actually fixing it.

[chamber]

In the world where you are town, do you think that helps change my belief that what you did was ... skating by?

[chamber]

I wonder who has their vote on a solo wagon and could move it to try and shake things up a bit?

[chamber]

Great, whats your opinion on zito's recent posts.

[chamber]

He recognizes the problem but isn't actually working to resolve it, just complaining about it. Seems like he might be scum that wants to have his cake and eat it too.

[chamber]

I don't think the day is going to end in a no lynch, I mean it might, but I'd put it at < 10%. But I'd rather have the option of the first person we run up not being the lynch. I'd like to see one or 2 people under some real pressure, see how other people move in response to that. I think you'd like to see the same. We'll never get that if we just wait until deadline and then you or tenshii end up dead.

[chamber]

I think this town has some big ego issues. Not the kind that lead to yelling and shouting thankfully, but we all think a bit too much of our own reads and aren't willing to work together, so we get a bunch of vanity wagons.

[chamber]

Was he scum with me in that game? Me and him literally had a conversation in site chat the other day and couldn't remember if we'd ever played together previously. So that tells you how much I remember of his play in it.

[chamber]

So he was, turns out UT replaced out! I had remembered UT being in the slot the whole time.

[chamber]

Put it this way, I am not 100 percent sure chamber is scum. Not even 80 percent.

I would very rarely claim that I was 80% sure about a scum read. If I'm above 50% I'm pretty excited. Where DO I fall on your scale?

Can I get an answer to this myko?

[chamber]

Vote myko

[chamber]

:/

Not really. Any answer I have is made up anyway, so I kind of avoided that on purpose.

Say, super scientific: nobody is sure about a read, so say if something really doesn't seem right you end up on 80 percent. You and BTD as a situation really doesn't seem right, but it's plenty hard to see you both as scum in that situation. Say 10 percent of that? Leaves 72 to devide between the two of you and at the point I voted you I debated if I should sit put or if you were scummier, and I think you are. BTD is just more likely to be a very bad and overdefensive townie than you ending up town. Don't want to round numbers because 32/40 is too big of a gap, say 34/38.

So you are 46 percent scum.

which is a bullshit answer, which is why I rather answered (and I have) how I see you alone, how I see you in combination with btd, which is exactly the same answer without made up numbers.

Completely reasonable, if bullshit numbers just because they are numbers. So my issue is when you gave numbers willingly before you said something like He's not 100%, he's not even 80%. Do you see how that language is hyperbolic if you actually have me substantially below 50%? that language suggest I'm like 70% in your eyes.

[chamber]

Was you going to l-1 when gork voted you unexpected? That was completely independent of my most recent question.

[chamber]

Add to that, actually: winrate is alright, though nothing special. So I feel justified. I do my part. So you can fuck off with calling me a dumb townie too.

I mean, I don't think people have been calling you a dumb townie. They've just been calling you scum. If you are town you've horrendously misplayed this game by antagonizing people you could have worked with and latching on to bullshit. That wouldn't make you a horrible player, just someone having a horrible game. Appeals to stats don't dispute that.

[chamber]

This is me telling you that you misinterpreted whatever you thought was me saying that.

[chamber]

I remember making a post where I was like "even if myko is town I don't want to keep him around" or etc, that's a statement about this game not your town play in general.

[chamber]

Actually, why wouldn't you want to talk about it? That suggests you know I'm being genuine IE town, yet I'm one of your bigger scum reads? Shouldn't you just think I'm pulling bullshit when I say something like that then?

[chamber]

God damnit, don't unvote myko yet.

[chamber]

Any reason for BTD over Tenshii?

[chamber]

I think your old point on him is rubbish, as I've said before, but I was indirectly probing about something else.

[chamber]

I don't think this is at all indicative of depth, but just how incredibly indirect I have to be to actually get answers from you.

[chamber]

Are you an alt Mars?

[chamber]

I think there is an obvious guess based on the interception of {female, Canadian near but not in toronto, had preexisting knowledge of that BTD game}, but I was mostly asking because that last point was an assumption that seemed odd from an alt, not because I have interest in who your main is (yet).

[chamber]

intersection*

[chamber]

Vote: edo

[chamber]

Unless BTD comes up with his numbers and reads in his next post, I'd be fine compromising there. I kinda want a flip more than anything else at the moment, particularly in chamber/myko to get that sorted out.

This post is awful is what's up. Myko's made worst posts but his play style of being terrible interferes with my ability to judge them relative to him. This is easily the worst non-myko post in the game.

[chamber]

I mean, that's part of what makes it awful. Its been 2 days since your last post. 0 new thoughts?

[chamber]

The part where you create a false dichotomy between me and myko?

[chamber]

It's not my responsibility to convince you that you are scum. Of course I'll never do that.

[chamber]

I still think hes most likely deadline lynch. I'd like to see things happen before deadline on him, but there isn't the pressure there with gork running about doing his own thing on quil, so I'm returning to what i was doing before gork voted.

[chamber]

The part where you create a false dichotomy between me and myko?

do you think thats something that town doesnt have a tendency to do?
or is there something specific about the way hes presenting this that you dont like? seems kind of easy to dismiss all of what hes saying as just problematic on the basis of it being a dichotomy, especially since it could just be a feeling.

I think its something someone who's inexperienced might be somewhat likely to think as town, but town with any real amount of experience (and this guys been on site for 5 years, haven't checked number of games player) realize that town on town attacks happen all of the time, and that it's a very convenient thing to create false dichotomies between them. His bloodlust is also a big issue for me. It seems to have no focus, which again in my mind is a quality of scum. Finally I feel like if he were reading the game for the first time in 2 days he'd have been more likely to quote a post he found interesting, or respond to a specific point. His summation suggests hes been keeping up the whole time but just not posting. I think passive observation like that is also a scum tell.

[chamber]

do you never get that feeling that an interaction between two slots is weird in a way that makes you feel like theres scum in one of the two slots?
even if it can be town on town, that doesnt detract from the feeling you might get if that makes sense?
i feel like this isnt a particularly good point (especially since ive played towngames recently where i had similar thoughts).

Maybe when I was new, not in a long time though. If I feel something is off I seek to find out why I feel that way, and that tends to me believing one or the other (or both) is scum (and perhaps I'm wrong). Just stopping at that stage seems strange to me.

[chamber]

tends to lead to me*

[chamber]

That's fine.

[chamber]

actually lets make this into a game because games are fun!
its called "btd if you make one more post saying "oh man these numbers are looking good" without actually posting the numbers and without actually pushing any reads then you get to die"-the-game.
sounds fun right?

I'm willing to one up this. I don't want to see one or the other at this point. I want both.

[chamber]

Vote: BTD6_maker

[chamber]

We are lynching you. You didn't include any thoughts about the game.

[chamber]

1: I signed up to play mafia.
2: As I've made clear many times, I think there is a very obvious cop, and that reduces the chance, even in your math, to 42.5%.

If you assume a cop n1 kill, lynching becomes strictly better I believe, even ignoring the obvious effect it has on helping inform future lynches and cop investigations.

[chamber]

And no, that's not your thoughts on the game. Its your thoughts on the setup.

[chamber]

I wouldn't join such an open setup in the first place.

[chamber]

Overall I think you seem more likely to be scum now.

You have unreasonable demands, suggesting that I should be lynched just because I did not give reads in the middle of a >30kB post. Why do you demand reads in that one post, with all the calculations, and not in others? You are then strongly opposed to following my breaking strategy. I think that scum would be far more likely to oppose my strategy than to support it, purely as scum desperately want to stop Town from following a strategy that will drastically reduce their chances if followed. Scum will be convincing Town that they should not follow my strategy, and I must admit that they are doing a very good job of it at the moment.

You have earned my vote. You will likely receive said vote on Day 3 or later.

I've not demanded that you interact with the game in that specific post. I've demanded that you interact with the game for a week. You've refused. You put yourself in the position of me making the demand, and I didn't demand that you make a 30kb post. The part I've cared about far more than the math has been your thoughts on the game. I feel like I've been the most reasonable person in putting up with your bullshit here, yet because I was awake when you got on I'm the one that earns your scumread? Hogwash, even if you are town.

I wouldn't join such an open setup in the first place.

How about this?

Suppose you had never heard of Follow the Cop and joined a setup with a Cop, Doc, and no RB without knowing that there was a breaking strategy. Suppose I am also in that game. On Day 1, I announce the Follow the Cop strategy. Would you then refuse to Follow the Cop?

Likely, yes. Again, I play mafia to play mafia. I play to win, but winning isn't why I play.

[chamber]

Someone is getting lynched today. You are an option. If you aren't going to be a part of the game you will be the only option.

[chamber]

I'll just wait for gork to hammer you.

[chamber]

Can you point me to one thing that anyone else has said that leads you to believe no lynching is a viable alternative for today? Anything but a delusion?

[chamber]

Have you never power role hunted as scum? I find it very easy. They don't have to deal with multiple reasons why someones behaviour might be odd.

[chamber]

I don't think that's true. Often things other than a power role kill matter much more (killing an influential town voice being the best example). Killing power roles is only obviously right when you want to break up a breaking strategy like this, or when the town is floundering already.

[chamber]

Don't let me down here Gork.

[chamber]

I'm not remotely confident that he's scum. I am past caring. But I also think it's impossible to make a firm judgement of his alignment as long as he's playing as he currently is.

[chamber]

You think his play here is similar to Surreptitious?

[chamber]

I haven't done more than skim both games but he doesn't seem very similar in either imo.

[chamber]

Hadn't crossed my mind, still doesn't bother me now that it has prompted by you.

[chamber]

can you talk about why?

I seem to remember myko being quite ok with busing, and this seems like something myko would be chasing as town.

I think myko just pushes everything like he really wants it. It's something I've hated about him this day if he's town.

[chamber]

I want to kill so many people.

[chamber]

@Mars - Yes, I think one is scum, more likely myko.

can you talk a little more about where your head at is on myko?
why specifically do you feel like hes more likely scum than not?
is it literally just wagon momentum?

It's a gut feeling I have, though admittedly I'm getting that feeling a bit less from when I last posted. That and the wagon momentum about rounds it out.

Also chamber doesn't like to vote early and often, which I'm sure he'll say before I can actually post this.

youve played with chamber before then based on this yes?
can you talk a little about why youre feeling like his play is weirding you out?

Yeah, at least once before. I was mistaken cuz I was going from memory and they were actually scum in the game I was in. I must've been conflating chamber with someone else.
chamber's not really weirding me out other than their handling of BTD (434), but I suppose what you mean is why have I created this "dichotomy" between him and myko. It started off because I was feeling a gut read on chamber, but it didn't make sense for both chamber and myko to be scum, so that's why I started thinking about it that way earlier.

Unless BTD comes up with his numbers and reads in his next post, I'd be fine compromising there. I kinda want a flip more than anything else at the moment, particularly in chamber/myko to get that sorted out.

it sounded like BTD was like.. one of your strongest townreads? can you talk about why youre okay with this now? are you really that apathetic with the gamestate?

Yeah I'm a bit apathetic about it, but that's not the point regarding BTD. I still think BTD is town (in 569 I actively didn't tie them to myko, and only to chamber who I'm leaning town on until my myko read changes), but if I'm gonna have to compromise and lynch someone I think is town, I'm saying I'd take BTD over the others because they haven't posted real content.

Anybody who thinks BTD is scum looks bad for it in my eyes. I don't see scum motivation for what he's doing when he's continually receiving flack for it. If he was scum, he would've dropped it already.

mars mentioned that BTD's scumgame is equally theorycraft-focused, does that change your feelings about his slot in general?
if its something that hes comfortable with doing as scum, would he abandon it under a little pressure?

I know you said to ignore this, but mars was saying that it's NAI for BTD, so not really. I think it's pretty evident that he's getting much more pressure for it than just a little. Perhaps scum-BTD would carry on, but I'm going with nah.

As for the numbers BTD posted, myko made a good point about scum using POE based on their hypos, so I don't trust the numbers quite yet. Maybe I'd try it if I were to play this setup again, but I'm in the camp that think that hypoing is bad here.

VOTE: Tenshii

You mention gut a few times in this post. That's a sufficient start for a read. Dig into it and find out why you feel that way so that you can actually articulate it. You seem to be willing to support votes to some degree on myself myko and tenshii and 2 of those still seem firmly routed in amorphous gut tingles? That's embarrassing, it's page 30.

[chamber]

I don't.

[chamber]

I lack town reads and want to kill people for being useless. In terms of actual scum reads I have like 2.

[chamber]

Neither are.

[chamber]

You can try and sell me on it.

I think one of my scumreads is pretty obvious? The other I'll keep to myself for now.

[chamber]

Actually the most interesting thing for you to do would be to talk about your zito read, so that would also be great.

[chamber]

If its BTD or tenshii, I vastly prefer BTD.

[chamber]

You can try and sell me on it.

[chamber]

Did you read my #703? If so, what are your thoughts on it?

It's the worst post you've made?

[chamber]

Did you read my #703? If so, what are your thoughts on it?

It's the worst post you've made?

Wtf

You're being a little bit dishonest if you said 'you can try and sell me on' a Tenshii lynch, despite the fact that the one other post where I have actually given reasoning for a Tenshii lynch was apparently, in your view, my worst ever.

I mean, to be clear, I meant in this game. But also I was trying to use it to sort you, I didn't expect you to actually convince me about tenshii, no.

I am also surprised you are not seeing any of your own scum play in what Tenshii has been doing, chamber.

On one hand, I don't think they are remotely similar, on the other, I'd expect my faults as scum to be blindspots to me, that's probably why they are my faults as scum?

[chamber]

You just made me do a lot of work wrt tenshii, and it's affirmed my stance.

[chamber]

Tenshii probably. BTD not too far a second.

Vote: Tenshii

Any reason for BTD over Tenshii?

chamber, what happened here? How did you lose so much faith in a Tenshii lynch?

I mean, I think both of those things have already been explained at their time in ways that make it clear I didn't have faith in a Tenshii lynch to start? Does the 2nd come off as me advocating for a Tenshii lynch to you?

[chamber]

Tenshii is still in the pool of lurkers I'm not going to cry over if they get lynched. This isn't the same as having faith in his lynch.

I wanted to see how the game and you acted with pressure on tenshii.

The 2nd is entirely me fishing for a very specific response from myko that he didn't give.

[chamber]

Myko is by far my strongest scum read and the game stagnated with my vote on him for like half the Day. I don't think it's going to happen without a lot of deadline pressure, I actually think a no lynch is most likely now, and if that happens I honestly think I'm just going to replace out. But also, there is an unfair bias against those that have posted a lot. They are for the most part people I trust to be competent, and this means leaving them alive had value especially when I'm not sufficiently sure of a read. Do you want an end game of edo tenshii and BTD? I don't. When things are muddy I'd just rather lynch someone who's not posting or who I think is bad. It gives good players more time to do things rather than useless ones. Your stance on BTD seems particularly bad to me for that reason.


How about actually giving feedback yourself?

[chamber]

You are asking a lot of questions, and I don't really follow the reason behind any of them. I give answers and then you let them dangle. Why did you ask any of them? I gather you have a town read on me. Even if you doubt it, this seems like a poor time to follow that doubt, surely you have some other aim?

[chamber]

And this didn't start as me asking for you to vote BTD, it started as the opposite of that.

[chamber]

vote myko

[chamber]

One thing being something someone would do as town is a really bad reason to town read them? Scum should be able to fake a lot of their town game. You should be looking for the cracks.

I think you misread what I was saying there. I wasn't saying Myko was town, I was just saying I was fine with voting alongside myko on BTD.

[chamber]

Is who mars is relevant? (though again, I think there is a pretty obvious guess based on what's been said)

[chamber]

He was parodying Zito.

We need you to lynch Myko Mars. Whats the chance you vote for him?

[chamber]

? I don't think we even get a claim? That seems pointless.

[chamber]

This is so weird. I assumed everyone was on the same page about claims being obviously bad until Gork just brought them up.

[chamber]

I'm not even sure we have a 5th vote let alone a hammer. Me and who?

[chamber]

uh, did I miss a vote? is it not just you myko and zito on him?

[chamber]

Pretty sure mars is town reading BTD harder than she's town reading myko. Our best bet is like edo.

[chamber]

The location of his vote should do all the speaking in this case, no?

[chamber]

I'll hammer when BTD's gone 48h without posting, or after his next post.

[chamber]

I isoed a bunch of tenshii games earlier and noticed he was way more active than this game and was town, that made me suspicious, until I found a scum game and he was way more active in it too, averaged like 3 posts a day even in the scum game. I think his activity level in this game is likely completely divorced from the game itself.

[chamber]

Ok, I know I said I'd give him 4 more hours but I wont be on then so just ending it now.

Vote BTD6_Maker

[chamber]

Dranyth said their cop guesses N1 were tenshii/quilford/zito(iffy on zito) I think? anyway, they had the 2 cops in their 3 guesses. So I think his plan would have failed.

[chamber]

I was legit mad when you unvoted myko the last time.

[chamber]

viewtopic.php?p=9425547#p9425547

this one I mean.

[chamber]

I'd talk to llamafluff.