Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Shadoweh]

Hello, my dudes, I am a player in this game now?! Too many pages to read so if someone could summarize all the role info for me that'd be fab

[Shadoweh]

Seriously though fuck sleepy for tricking me into replacing into WHITE FLAG

I did have a glance over yesterday to see what happened. It figures the guy I thought was towniest suffered a fatal mod attack.
Ran, can you explain why you thought Lycan was scum with CES so much? Your two lynches in the case you don't die are conveniently all you need to win at this point.
I thought yesterday your posts were a great example of stages of grief, with 2368 being grief to bargainning and now you've gone into depression?

Oh sorry, if we're going to ruin the game should I come back later after the lock? I was thinking maybe we could win while I'm here..

[Shadoweh]

I've never seen someone not showing up to deadline be relevant to their alignment. Especially in regards to two people who are inactive in general. (Although idn if Dan is still like that.)
If you're using VCA then I don't know how you could look at yesterday and come to the conclusion Marquis was scum.

I'm going to pretend the other conversation over there isn't happening. Sleepy told me he thinks LQ is wacky alpaca town.

[Shadoweh]

Also Hi Shadoweh. ^_^ I promise I'm town THIS time.

IGMEOY but i skimmed some of yourposts and they seemens okay
thatm akes sense thjough because wware totally the SCUMS PARTNESRS shh
time ot lukr together

funy thing i don't know if ij ust picke the best pages but i dndit see a single dunnstral post so mim counting on today to make an impresssion

If you look deeper into the votes you'll see I had numerous opportunities to hammer people who weren't CES - I'm not scum

The information on a scum CES flip was: Don't lynch Marquis before Dunnstral

I had the opportunity to hammer Marquis.

is this a joke because if you quickhammered me you'd have been lynched immediately+

[Shadoweh]

okay so like, ive only had one glass of wine and i f i lii k carefully at the keybolard is doesn't bemess up that much

[Shadoweh]

lcitkety undesrstands me3

i misundsterstoof wsleepy, he meanst li vky was begins wacky asa scums beign weird thing
i didn't knwos how ai umisdunderstoofd that buti htink it was my thought wfrom reading back and i just assumed sleepy afreed with me
brefcsaysadrer um the smartersdt

i passed out for about 309v minutes after writing that

[Shadoweh]

I'm well over 13 though

[Shadoweh]

I think Dunn could easily be scum

but generally speaking I always feel more confident of a scumread if they also have a lot of posts because I have a lot clearer picture of them in my mind whereas I often find it too easy to scumread low-posters without having rly thought much about it yk? It's hard to explain but I think this gets the gist of it across

To be fair low-posting is scummy in itself so it's not surprising to be biased there. Sometimes a spade is just a sped though. I really hope people aren't low-posting out of a victory malaise, I'd think its more the modkill is a downer.

For the sake of which I/We'd prefer at the moment we feel more confident Ranmaru is scum (sleepy still thinks LQ has some bad interactions but I think it's less likely and I'm the one driving here.)

[Shadoweh]

Can anyone tell me they're scumreading Ran for something other than him defending CES?

There's a bit of difference between defending someone and trying to make someone preemptively sound like the incoming scum flip's partner, which is what I interpretted a lot of his comments towards Lycanfire as being. Especially since Lycan is 99% not a member of the scum team now. Regardless of that I think his opening post today sounded like pleading. I've been in the desperately pleading not to get lynched position though but somehow I doubt I'm going to be convinced by this train of thought. :V

[Shadoweh]

Shadoweh, I want you to do actual analysis.

I am not going to be able to go back and properly analyze what you said to other people because I wasn't there and it doesn't carry the same emotional impact. (there's also 141 pages and I don't have enough wine.) I want you to post actual information now instead of talking about how you will so I can judge it. I'm still willing to give you the benefit of the doubt even if you're going to make a backwards case on my former self.

Gamma, I started around the reads list on 2347 where his part on Lycan is basically he's scum with CES. Lycan responded with a pretty compelling post about getting on CES in 2359, and Ran's response was not CES, read marquis, nevermind you're not scum with CES, it's just Marquis. Actually he posted a readslist that it's just Marquis/Dan/NSG after that so this is just the same thing as yesterday with subbing CES for the dead person? He could have a contest with LQ to see which is crazier. I don't think this is slam dunk but it seemed like a good place to start.

[Shadoweh]

Ran you're kind of a riot to read. The way you present your argument ("I ask the town") sounds like a lawyer presenting their case.
The posts you're using as proof Davsto was seem to paint someone who was low on time which is a good reason not to reconsider what he's doing? Actually going back and looking, Davsto spends the entire rest of his posts that day after what you posted speaking with CES and solidifying why CES should be his vote. Why would CES be begging his scum partner in thread to look at other people, does this game not have daytalk? (Checking, scum role pm says daytalk). I can't imagine a universe I would hold it against someone for being told by scum they should be lynching me and the Davsto whispering, 'No'.

This was after my request for him to elaborate on his full reads list. #1765 He had Gamma as scum, which I was wondering about. So, he said he'd ISO him more to get a better idea. This is what happened, and then CES came and tried to help him out. "Here, ISO Marquis blah blah blah." It seemed like a helpful guide in another direction. His reaction was not expected from me. My thoughts is, that he was trying to push towards Gamma's direction, but he couldn't actually fake a reason to push on Gamma, and Gamma had posted so much that it was impossible for Davsto to get anything out of it. Instead of re-evaluating, it takes him that many times to 'keep the push' up. (Which he was stalling with) So his buddy helped him to turn on him to have a direction for the day instead of not being able to turn up with anything. #3398 rubs me off because it shows he's content with the lynch, but his confidence doesn't match:

This is basically rewriting history. :/ Unless Davsto is the worst scum in history I'm sure he could have come up with a reason to attack Gamma. It seemed like he decided a 250 page iso wasn't worth it compared to what was happening in the now with CES. It's exactly what I would have done and your attempts to get him to iso Gamma are more like what you're saying CES was doing in trying to get him to iso Marqmeis as a distraction. Like I am reading these posts and other then saying a vague scumread at Gamma there's no push from him there. It's like you made a case on why he's a townie.

btw I want to discuss this now: should we no lynch for 5p if we mislynch today?

If we're allowed to do it it's the most optimal play, so yes.

Again, I had many opportunities to hammer what CES was pushing though, you're not looking at the full picture

This still doesn't mean anything, you hammering me would have gotten both of you lynched and last time I checked that's a town victory.

It seems like people think these two make sense as scum together but not really with other people? I hate lurking but even with posts like this Dunn triggers me a little less.

[Shadoweh]

rip daniel

[Shadoweh]

Vote onto CES wasn't meant to be, LQ vs Shea is shit, and LQ has no business with his vote on Shea with how little sense he is making. Marquis and LQ aren't wolves because of how they talk to each other see 456-458, 1505 all being the easy examples. Sprinkle in vote data (marquis and gamma must die, ces too, just kidding! also, a wild shea) and I don't think they're on the same team. LQ's votes are very reactionary, and the Gamma one in particular is aimed because I said they couldn't be aligned based on interactions, and I imagine he was more worried about Llamarble's D1 post than any of us when he opened day with that can of worms. I read LQ as having a hitlist of people he can't get along with endgame, and this Shea argument just reads like he's muddying the waters.

says it more eloquently

Sleepy agrees with the muddying the waters parts, that's basically what we've been arguing about for a few days. Does LQ scum have a reason to kill the other dead townie rather then stop you from tunneling on them some more?

[Shadoweh]

Yeah obviously scum is not going to kill someone about to die. It still matters who the person who died was.

[Shadoweh]

That is 100% not happening. I'm reading snippets since this game is being slow and boring but I'm not going to waste a week reading 100 pages.
I was hoping to link to wherever you said Gamma was scum but your narrative that he's obvtown is consistent going back at least 1500 posts. Huh.
I think you're seeing him from your own perspective but tbh I should stop responding to someone else's argument.

I will give you my current impressions though. Despite being a little self-defensive I do think Gamma is town, I think Davsto's insistence on staying on CES makes more sense as town then scum and his voting reason seemed completely reasonable to me (so basically the opposite of what you think ) . TSQ's posts just make the most sense to me (helps that we're thinking the same things.)

I guess LQ gets to be null since I find him inoffensive but my team thinks he's scum. That's someone I might actually do a full iso read on since you're making me doubt. Dan basically isn't here, no his fault but I dislike anytime someone tries to pair me with a likely lynch. If he's scum it won't matter and it could just be worrying for nothing.

Which leaves you and Dunnstral, unless I'm forgetting someone else in this game and it is 5am so it wouldn't be the first time. You're right that it'd be easier if you were scum and I didn't have to rethink anything. I think it makes more sense to vote Dunn right now and this could just be wasting time. I do think the double agent 'that tell was actually a FAKE' thing you do often is ridiculous though.

[Shadoweh]

Shadoweh I can find the posts where Ran said I was scum if you like

Sure, that would be helpful. If it's further back then Day 2 I don't think it affects what I said about consistency.

[Shadoweh]

Yes, I am indeed in Marquis's slot, thanks for acknowledging that again. :V I take offense to the notion that I'm not posting enough when I have the last post for hours at a time.
Dunnstral, I didn't answer you because you asked me a dumb question that could have been answered reading slightly before what you quoted. (I don't think it's impossible for Dan to be scum)

What the hell is even your problem Lycan? It's like you are upset at Transcend and taking it out on me.

I don't think he's mentioned Transcend in his case? He clearly believes what he's saying.
Also stop cutting me

[Shadoweh]

Dunnstral, I didn't answer you because you asked me a dumb question that could have been answered reading slightly before what you quoted. (I don't think it's impossible for Dan to be scum)

What you said was "if he's scum it won't matter" then you started sussing out 2 other people to lynch, huh?

Bad English, I meant that if you're scum it wouldn't matter if Dan can't get his power back.

[Shadoweh]

LQ, he's already flipped town. If he wasn't town the game would be over. Therefore although Lycan is being a bully there's no reason to doubt that he's authentic.
It really strikes me as wrong to try and discredit him that way.

Ran do you get off to reads lists? I don't work in exact orders, I already told you what I thought is town/null/scum at the time. This isn't a catering service.
There were a few posts yesterday that I can point out when I'm not half asleep, today in particular his 3635 post today is pretty much the same posts I was looking at and similar reasoning for finding you suspicious.

[Shadoweh]

prod dodge ish, woke up slightly feverish, will post later with swift coffee injexctions
I don't think I want to vote Ran anymore today

[Shadoweh]

I fell back asleep. >.>
Gamma: Because he feels authentic and it just feels like he's trying to figure things out. Plus when it looked like he was in trouble things got really quiet and that just makes me think people were comfortable with his lynch and watching him flail.

I changed my mind about LQ. The "I'm more pro-town then you" statement really sticks with me. Someone who's actually town shouldn't be thinking along those lines.
It doesn't matter how pro-town someone is compared to you because your own alignment shouldn't be something you have to think about.

VOTE: LickectyQuick

[Shadoweh]

You don't think players think about how likely they are to be ML? I definitely do.

I think people do get angry about being lynched over people they think are scum, I don't think this is the same thing.
It's like, pre-flip rage? in an "I played so much better then you" way. I'm basically saying it sounds like he doesn't think he's scum.

[Shadoweh]

Ugh you should know what I mean, that's referring to what he thinks of Dunn not himself.

[Shadoweh]

You don't think players think about how likely they are to be ML? I definitely do.

I think people do get angry about being lynched over people they think are scum, I don't think this is the same thing.
It's like, pre-flip rage? in an "I played so much better then you" way. I'm basically saying it sounds like he doesn't think he's scum.

This is sensible. Like rather than be outraged at being mislynched he seems to be outraged at being outplayed.
...who were we talking about again

I was talking about Lickety, but did you have someone else you thought this applies to?

[Shadoweh]

I wasn't pretending you asshole, I don't know why you keep saying that

[Shadoweh]

Sorry I probably shouldn't post immediately after waking up but seriously that's rude as heck.
Being the EV kill is fair, that's what everyone's been saying and I did see her basically hard case and tunnel CES to death. I was hoping there was more to it then that.

[Shadoweh]

Don't do that, he's town.

God dammit.

Fake news!

His read is that Dunn needs to die as evidenced by the fact that Dunn is playing very badly for town or something.

[Shadoweh]

I'm not entirely against the idea that talking about other people related to your scumread can be distracting, but at this point it's distracting everyone to have the question ignored.
I think it's relevant because everyone seems to be perfectly fine with Dunnstral dying in a fire.

[Shadoweh]

Pretty sure my vote earlier failed because I can't spell either. It's supposed to have been on LQ for awhile.

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

Shea: Yeah, Sleepy has hated LQ for awhile, he told me in particular to read the exchanges between you and him, starting around 2304. I wasn't seeing it from the same place until experiencing it for myself. See if this is a fun refresher for you:

I LITERALLY DID VOTE COUNT ANALYSIS IN THE FUCKING POST THAT YOU'RE CLAIMING SAYS VOTE COUNT ANALYSIS IS BAD.

LITERALLY.

FUCKING LITERALLY.

IN THE SAME POST.

YOU ARE LITERALLY FUCKING CLAIMING THAT I AM SAYING "VOTE COUNT ANALYSIS IS NOT CORRECT SO I AM GOING TO NOW DO SOME VOTE COUNT ANALYSIS.

Yeah, you did it to get a Town read on me, someone who is such a wild card it doesn't even matter if I am a TR or not.

Where are you doing this to find Scum, Shea?

At this time he was voting CES but telling people like Dan that you were 100% scum above all scum. It's kind of hilarious to read back on because he really hated you for bizarre reasons while going on you, then off you almost right away, then when NSG posted her bulletpoint CES scum case he was painting you as suspicious 'regardless of how CES flips'. It's like little slips of the tongue.

I mean, Lycan's later postings are better then a huge case I could come up with anyways since he was, you know.. present. >>

[Shadoweh]

2 days to lynch. I'm quite happy where I am, if the other non-voters are ready to take a stand, I say with baited breath seeing as the current voters are politely stubborn as donkeys.

[Shadoweh]

Marquis just never should have signed up in the first place. He wasn't calculating, he just couldn't keep up.
I don't agree with you even slightly Dan but I'm sure that comes as no surprise to you. There isn't much there I can interact with because I didn't do it. :V

[Shadoweh]

I didn't see one from Marquis, I assumed he'd replaced out before the night phase started since I got asked and added pretty quick.
I don't know if I feel good about a wagon there or if it's more of an annoying inevitability since people would rather not look twice at Lickerty right now.
He hasn't stopped being minimal and admittedly him being the only one willing to look at LQ makes my gut twist.
If it came down to it I'd be okay with a vote there, but he doesn't even have votes right now so it feels weird to be talking about compromising already.

[Shadoweh]

Ran, you struck me as really genuinely trying to figure things out. I find that if I'm feeling pangs of guilt pursuing someone that I should listen to myself and look elsewhere.
The question was a bit bizarre to me first because like, you were there, you should be able to answer that yourself?
(nothing is more annoying then people who get upset when you think townie things of them)

Look is it really impossible for you to conceive of a world where Ran is genuine and LQ is scum? I get where you're coming from on Ran, it just doesn't fit to me. I'm okay with agreeing to disagree for now because someone is going to have to cave regardless.

[Shadoweh]

Oh no, you caught me. I sure would be sad if you helped me bus my best friend Licketysplit here!

[Shadoweh]

I don't think LQ is a lazy vote; there's been a lot of resistance to a lynch there compared to Ran, Dan and Dun. (I read that as he's just lazy at first and I was going to argue vehemently. )
I think Dunn did say he thought Ranmaru was town like, right after Ran voted him.

[Shadoweh]

Hello I have returned from my prescribed weekend coma and should be available until deadline. I would be willing to vote Dunn if there were votes there, but 10 hours left and 0 votes, etc. One vote? I have no reason to move other then my team getting paranoid that him pushing Dunn non-stop doesn't make sense as scum.

I don't think LQ is a lazy vote; there's been a lot of resistance to a lynch there compared to Ran, Dan and Dun.

Uh... what? What makes you think there is no resistance to Ran Dan and Dunn?

:/ You quote me and yet you manage to say something that isn't in the thing you quoted, saying there's more for you does not mean none for anyone else.

[Shadoweh]

I'm pretty sure that's the exact context you meant Lickety.

[Shadoweh]

It's ok it's not as hard as a flip flop from Sleepy Krew, from LQ is wacka alpaca town ---> ??? bad interactions from post 23## ---> hates LQ.

Fuck off Dan I already said that was me mixing it up

I can't tell where the votes are right now but I'm pretty sure LQ still has the most lynch support. I would really prefer not to lynch Ranmaru.

[Shadoweh]

3 hours. I tried the unofficial vote counter and it failed. >_> Shea, stop being a stubborn idiot, do you think you're more likely to be scum then these other people? If not then you should be open to at least proving you're right and they're wrong.

Everyone ignoring the entire day to wagon someone random is not something I expected out of Mafiascum. It does remind me of a lot of games I've played with Dan elsewhere. These never end well.

[Shadoweh]

:/ I really don't want to be choosing between Ran and TSQ, this is ridiculous.

[Shadoweh]

:/ I really don't want to be choosing between Ran and TSQ, this is ridiculous.

Can you talk to me about Shea?

Nothing has changed to make me think he's scum. I think you two have tunnel vision on each other.

Lycan, if Dan is scum would he not have just closed out this TSQ wagon and said it was because of deadline?

This LQ lynch appears to be a bust. If people are willing to jump off, I'll start this then:

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Shadoweh]

There is a non-zero chance at any moment that I pass out and can't vote change fyi

[Shadoweh]

Hello my dudes, this is basically a prod dodge as I'm wrecked from a night of busywork and I do most of my posting from work. (I'm going back to sleep after posting this.) We thought the most likely scenario was a LQ/Dan team so him not being here is pretty weird. Something like a Ran/Gamma team doesn't seem likely so I'm wondering if LQ/TSQ or someone with Davsto makes sense. I'd rather be impatient and just vote so we can have some real arguments but my team said that's probably reckless. :V

It's nice to know Ran still thinks I'm scum with the person I want to lynch the most. I don't understand you sometimes but I'm not the kind of person who plays chicken like that.

[Shadoweh]

My team updated me to say I should shut up and no-lynch. implosion seems to think it would help solve the game.

[Shadoweh]

I would feel pretty shitty if I replaced in and lost this for someone else's team. It's actually frustrating to look at this game because the arguments that keep coming up whether I'm town OR scum are all based on someone else. I can't fault you guys for analyzing him, it's just, very hard for me to interact BACK with you guys when you do it.

It kind of threw me for a loop yesterday when Dan died. It seemed like the most likely pairs were either Ran/Dunn or LQ/Dan, so both of them losing a pair and flipping town was confusing. We still think Lickety is the most likely scum but not sure on who the other would be. We have a pretty hard townread on Davsto and at this point I'd be okay with losing if he's this good. (skrew said they're the same person in thoughts). It's possible that Ran could be scum with LQ over Shea, but it does seem like he's the common link still in possible pairings. Ran/TSQ seems like it would just not happen.

Ran, I said this earlier but it's really insane that you think I'm trying to throw the game by lynching my partner. I did look at the argument you made about Marquis and I (obviously) disagree with your reasoning. Both scenarios you're describing can be true, as in the game stalled because Marquis was a mislynch waiting to happen, and town felt restless on it and moved when NSG made a better case. I agree with you Marquis didn't make himself look townier, rather NSG made CES look like caught scum.

[Shadoweh]

Shadoweh, you do make a good point. I don't think you/quick are a likely pairing now. I just felt it was odd how you didn't want to choose between me/shea the other day. Can you give me your top three people you'd vote today, and why? Not pairs, just individual.

No offense, but no. There is no reason to have three most likely people to vote today. If I don't believe Davsto is scum, and I don't think you and TSQ are scum together, there is literally only one person I should be considering voting unless that point changes. If this was a regular game I would put more thought into it, and admittedly I think you're less likely to be scum, but we don't have to catchem all.

[Shadoweh]

Yeah, same here. Davsto even took the time to reply to himself about what I could have said back to him. (He also could have changed his thinking in three years but etc)

If this was a tribbal council Jeff would be saying it's time to VOTE. I'm at least going to wait until I'm home and see if my team have any final thoughts.

[Shadoweh]

Nothing that's happened today has changed my mind. Not that much has happened. Despite some last minute discussions about Davsto as a sleeper pick fueled by fireball at 3am, Bins is a sweetheart and agrees with me the most powerful force of all is GUT! So one way or another, let's get this show on the ROAD.

VOTE: LICKETYQUICKETY

If I wake up to this being over I'll feel mildly guilty for fucking up a perfectly servicable game by dropping in but remember everything is Sleepykrew's fault.

[Shadoweh]

Wow. What A Great Typical Licky Response.

[Shadoweh]

haha yeah

I'm pretty sure I just have.

[Shadoweh]

Man if I was right about Ran and got distracted I'm going to be disappointed. TSQ hasn't posted, you still have time to unvote before it's too late.

[Shadoweh]

Yeah I don't think so.

[Shadoweh]

Please stop having a public pow-wow, it's ridiculous. If you're not scum you should be unvoting me Ran because I'm town. If you want to start your own 1v1 it would still be better then voting me but you should just get off me period.

[Shadoweh]

Every hour I see TSQ dodging the game makes me more and more sure the Scum team is Shadoweh and TSQ. I will say if TSQ is Scum here, he played a good game.

I thought he was lurking scum? Isn't he never here on the weekends regardless? I'm pretty sure he mentioned that a few times before this.

Yeah me and Ran had it all planned out for sure. What the heck would be the point of distancing in a game like this?

[Shadoweh]

Hello can Davsto possibly get a prod, I'm sure his team has been thinking about this?
I shouldn't be surprised you can come up with reasons for me to be paired with anyone, you're good at coming up with random threesome scanarios. :/

[Shadoweh]

At the moment I'm still fairly stable on Ran town (although his logic for me being scum is absolutely wild) but it's honestly still anyone and I hate that, another reason for my disengagement.

Sorry for not being a scumbag? At this point the result is academic for me and as much as I wanted to think otherwise it looks like he's not town. It's actually ridiculous now that instead of lynching him when I replaced in like we should have after the dance about so sorry for CES he's regained trust. He's encouraged votes slash scumreads on everyone alive at this point. He doesn't have reads, he just has whatever's coming out of his mouth today.

[Shadoweh]

to go back to my earlier post about possible combinations:

Davsto - shadoweh
Davsto - LQ
Davsto - Ran
LQ - Shadoweh
Ran - Shadoweh
LicketyQuickety - Ran

these are the possible pairings from my pov. eliminating davsto gives me

LQ - Shadoweh
Ran - Shadoweh
LicketyQuickety - Ran

eliminating the possibility that lq and shadoweh are scum together gives me:
Ran - Shadoweh
LicketyQuickety - Ran

ergo if I believe davsto is town, you are scum.

This is also true from Davsto's perspective too if he believes me to be town, which he might not.

It also holds true from LQs perspective if he believes me and davsto are town.

Notice how TSQ only writes out my whole username when pairing me with Ranmaru. This is either subliminal messaging or Freudian Slip.

My team and I have discussed this thought process and

[Shadoweh]

There is no we in this decision, it's just Davsto. You already showed your hand. It's incredible you would use Marquis replacing out as a suspicion for not voting, because he didn't vote because he wasn't here, the reasoning is right there.

You are rewriting history about our interactions, I came in with the bias that my team was suspicious of you, we spoke, and then I did that thing you're accusing me of not doing ie analyzing what you were saying and changing my mind. I actually haven't come after you after that, the difference is you have to be scum now so it doesn't matter how convincing you are to me. That post you're pointing to is me saying that I don't want to vote my biggest town reads. You also make it sound like TSQ was the only one with a chance of getting lynched at a time when you were the other person being discussed as the lynchee. Yeah sorry that I was busy trying to get actual scum lynched that day. I'm pretty sure you're the one that hammered Dunnstral, buddy. Don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.

[Shadoweh]

Alpha strike combo lmfao it's so fucking depressing that I'm probably going to lose this game to you two chuckleheads because of someone else's derping. How can you be so fricking fake "this puts my fears to rest!"

[Shadoweh]

I'm not asking you anything scumbag

[Shadoweh]

Good luck Davsto. I hope you make the right decision. Just like, look over the reactions these guys have had to being called out and think over it, please?

[Shadoweh]

He might just not be here because it's the weekend again. @Davsto if you do decide to vote not-me we might have to vote Ran if TSQ can't hammer lol