Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831

[insanity018]

VOTE: Kmd4390

Oh God. It's only been 2 pages, but every post is a novel. We need some player-led standards set here. Can't expect Kort to do it all. Catching up though, so prodge

I think the past 2 pages have been pretty good and much easier that many of the earlier pages in the game.

Going back to your most recent content post -

Roflcopter is town. Said Axel and Hito are scum.
Kison is town. Hito voting him.
Morality I honestly can't remember ever seeing them post in this game. Null

chamber was one of your top 3 scumreads in 99. Morality replaced chamber. What is your read of that slot now?

This is pretty shallow reasons for townreading roflcoptor and Kison. Do you like anything about their actual posting or content? Do you think it's possible that scum could bus?

[Old Man]

VOTE: Kmd4390

Oh God. It's only been 2 pages, but every post is a novel. We need some player-led standards set here. Can't expect Kort to do it all. Catching up though, so prodge

I think the past 2 pages have been pretty good and much easier that many of the earlier pages in the game.

Going back to your most recent content post -

Roflcopter is town. Said Axel and Hito are scum.
Kison is town. Hito voting him.
Morality I honestly can't remember ever seeing them post in this game. Null

chamber was one of your top 3 scumreads in 99. Morality replaced chamber. What is your read of that slot now?

This is pretty shallow reasons for townreading roflcoptor and Kison. Do you like anything about their actual posting or content? Do you think it's possible that scum could bus?

Hi. Why did you vote KMD, when your entire post was about Tywin Lannister? Did you misvote? Please, join us on the Tywin wagon.

[Old Man]

What is it that the kids do these days ....

::

Is that it?

I think this is literally the wrong game to ask that question!

My response to OldMan’s discussion at 287 I will keep very concise.

1. There is as discontinuity in saying that people jumped from his wagon with “weak or no reasoning” and not drawing conclusions from it (they could be scum who don’t actually have reasons) or going after said players. He did neither and basically is pretending that’s unreadable behavior.

2. I also think the second part about “wanting meta from others” is scummy coming from someone who earlier stated that the burden of proof of meta is on the accuser in relation to others having requests. Why didn’t he read my most recent scum games and come to a conclusion himself? It’s not hard to look at my threads, get a summary of my alignment in those games and do some research on how I performed.

Obviously not voting there today but not letting what I see as suspect play not be pointed out in case his claim dissipates tomorrow.

1. The problem is that I cannot read such behavior when I believe that the evidence obtained is not indicative of alignment. Can you? If so, I challenge you: Tell me what

you

think of the reactions of the people who jumped on my wagon, and their alignments. If you're town here, we'll review these predictions postgame. I'll tip my hat off to you if your reads deserve merit.

2. I am attempting to profile you. chamber was accusing Eddie of being scummy, then

asking Eddie to prove himself innocent with meta evidence that he performs the same behavior as town... guilty until proven innocent?

Here is the difference: chamber is accusing Eddie of being scum, without proof. However, I am not accusing you of anything! How are the two relevant?

Why didn’t he read my most recent scum games and come to a conclusion himself?

[petroleumjelly]

-> c.) Why did you post so many times without offering any opinions or questions (e.g., "I'm not replying," "I'm waiting... get back to me," "Sigh," "the game finally gets interesting")? Is this a modus operandi for you?

c.) why don't you do a 5 minute skim of any of my games and get back to me.

Fine.

Your last completed game appears to be Touhou UCanPick5, where you were engaging with the game early and often by page two. You were Town.

Skipping The Resistance #1 since you were hydraing with Alisae. Skipping BooneyToonz since you replaced in on page 25. Skipping Mini #1991 since you replaced in on page 15. Skipping World Record Mafia since your first post was on page 27. And you have posts in several games you apparently did not play in. By now I've spent far more than five minutes.

So the one comparable game I managed to find does

not

suggest you intentionally sit around obstinately on Day One, which you have implied is typical for you.

Here's what I'll request. Please try to set aside your ego and answer my questions as best you can. Essentially what all of my questions are getting at are: why have been playing the way you are playing this game?

~

Will get to other things in a separate post.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Firebringer, why is Eddie Cane Town? Additionally, why have you been going on about giving Eddie Cane "three guesses" for why you are reading him as Town?

2.)

Pine, looks like you've been actively lurking a bit lately. You were posting quite a bit at the start of the game, but you've done very little this week by comparison. Any reason for that?

3.)

PJ

: Let's say I'm buying what you're selling about PineEddie but I think that Tywin, Pine, Eddie is the best order to test the theory in (and stopping to re-evaluate if we ever mislynch, obviously). That get you on board the Tywin wagon?

I prefer not to actually lynch based on connection tells until there is a confirmed, flipped scum.

That said, if I were not still trying to get answers from Eddie Cane, my vote would likely be on either Kmd4390 or Tywin Lannister. (Or if I were in a pressure-voting mood, I could swing to voting roflcopter, Pine, or Morality). I am waiting for both of them to finish catching up and answer pending questions.

[insanity018]

Hi. Why did you vote KMD, when your entire post was about Tywin Lannister? Did you misvote? Please, join us on the Tywin wagon.

Hi. It wasn't a mistake, Magna got to me first!

I also approve of the Tywin wagon though!

@Tywin,

To add to my previous questions, why did you decide to vote for Hito? Why Hito instead of Axelrod or petroleumjelly, who you've scumread from the start of the game and thought were still scum in 255? Especially considering that a wagon on Axelrod was forming? (Axelrod votes - Pine in 241, roflcoptor in 243)

[Eddie Cane]

Did you misvote?

lol

Your last completed game appears to be Touhou UCanPick5, where you were engaging with the game early and often by page two. You were Town.

I was also killed night 1 and tunnelled 2 people hard to a lynch and a subsequent dayvig the next day, both of whom were scum. It was a playerlist I knew most of the players in and I was very excited to play in.

Here's what I'll request. Please try to set aside your ego and answer my questions as best you can. Essentially what all of my questions are getting at are: why have been playing the way you are playing this game?

So the one comparable game I managed to find does not suggest you intentionally sit around obstinately on Day One, which you have implied is typical for you.

I didn't sit around obstinately on day 1, I sat around obstinately for 6 (?) pages. You didn't notice the fact in the other games I sometimes lurked out the beginning of the game completely? I can't do that here because you people post so damn slowly.
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=72708&user_select%5B%5D=29424
viewtopic.php?t=72576&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
I was stalling for time to see what KMD posted. He kept not posting relevant stuff, so I was having fun. In case you need a descriptor, I can cite the babylonian origins upon request but at this conjecture I feel Wikipedia shall suffice: "Fun is the enjoyment of pleasure, particularly in leisure activities. Fun is an experience often unexpected, informal or purposeless. It is an enjoyable distraction, diverting the mind and body from any serious task or contributing an extra dimension to it." (“Fun.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 3 May 2018, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fun.) I don't think I've been "playing" in any way, I think I've been much more helpful than you deserve with how you keep talking down to me. My posts so far are a LOT more effort than I put into most games.

[Axelrod]

I need to do some serious re-reading, but I will confess the somewhat relaxing pace of the game makes it easy to put that off.

I kind of want to vote for KMD, but it's as much because of what seems to be avoidance as anything else at this point. It's like he's actively avoiding saying anything relevant. Like, this whole sequence:

I know I said I'd read today. Didn't get to it. Tomorrow should be better.

FUUUUUUUUUCK MEEEEEE

I seriously just lost my post.

Will try to put it back together another time. Too pissed to do it now.

V/LA until Saturday

for my 16 hour work days Thursday and Friday.

And then, when he does "come back" and posts something game-related, it's...this?

Old Man, in post 94, you gave Kison a town read for voting based on your avatar. It was RVS. Most, if not all votes are going to be flimsy reasoning. Hell, about half of us voted based on confirmations. Also can you tell me where you got the idea the Eddie wagon was policy?

If Pine flips scum we are lynching Tywin next 100%

Why? I don't see it. What is your read on Tywin now? What would it be with a Pine town flip?

_____________________

Jelly, how do you see Eddie's play as nervous? I don't see any way a nervous player intentionally waits on explaining a vote while he's the leading wagon.

______________________

I'm through post 110 on page 5 (this is more for myself than anyone else)

Spams a few what seems to be very random questions at people. And

Does anyone know insanity well enough to know if she fakes this kind of thing as scum?

I don't think I've done anything to justify this read. What do you like about me?

Another huh? post.

So seems like it's either (1) He's scum trying to avoid posting as much as possible or (2) he's just not trying at all. The thing about (1) is, it's just such a bad "strategy".

@KMD

, were either of these two posts the one you "lost" that you were crying so hard about? Also, I would like to hear you talk about your vote for Eddie. Did you notice the other votes on him at the time? What were you thinking then? What about his stated reason for voting for you?

[Pine]

PJ I have not been active lurking. I have more posts than anyone else, including more than thrice your total.

As Axel said, the relaxed pace makes it easy to just coast for a while and see what develops.

More importantly, though I just haven't seen anything enough that makes me want to change my mind about reads.

[Eddie Cane]

[Kmd4390]

Ok, more reading. Probably won't be much again, but the wife thinks I'm still sleeping and I'm taking whatever free time I can get at this point lol

But Eddies entrance was awkward and deserved scrutiny. He’s waved off that he is getting pressure for a joke. Were both his posts jokes? Who knows. And his “Stupid old guy I play how I like” stance frankly is 100% of the reason I’m keeping my vote there.

Huh? Stubbornness like that usually comes from town. Why wouldn't scum-Eddie just do what everyone is asking to get people off his back?

well, I'm not waiting until Monday to post so I guess itll be today

Ouch. You were waiting on me before doing...anything? I feel bad enough being busy already... Can you explain your town reads on Kison and Rofl if you haven't already? (entirely possible you did this and I just haven't read that far)

_________________

Gotta say I'm a fan of the new firebringer.

I don't have a read there yet

, but this posting style is nice to see. <-Actually I'm gonna say town for now.

Fire - Your head is cozy and warm. But I'm worried you're scum. </3

Why? I got the opposite impression from his posting just before you said this.

______________________

I'm through Page 6.

[Pine]

Maybe before asking questions in a catch-up, see if I answer that question on like, the next page.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Eddie Cane, your idea of 'fun' seems to come at the expense of others. In the first you cite (Mini Normal #1931, your 'style' was apparently to intentionally antagonize people to get 'reads' on them.

I can talk down to you if you wish. I think you play like a jerk. You put others down while hoisting yourself up. You play with an ego, and it's a problem. I am very close to replacing out of this game because I would rather not try to continue playing with you.

2.)

Eddie Cane, what do you think of Pine?

3.)

Pine:

PJ I have not been active lurking. I have more posts than anyone else, including more than thrice your total.

As Axel said, the relaxed pace makes it easy to just coast for a while and see what develops.

More importantly, though I just haven't seen anything enough that makes me want to change my mind about reads.

First, comparing your post count to my post is a deflection at best.

Second, try checking your own posts. You had 33 posts from the start of the game through Sunday (4/25 - 4/29). Then you had only 7 posts from Monday through Friday (4/30 - 5/4), and in those seven posts, four of them literally said nothing pertinent at all (see Post #221, Post #223, Post #243, and Post #292). Your other three posts don't even question people; at best, you "WIFOM-bomb" yourself with a question (see Post #219) such that you don't give a firm opinion of Hitogoroshi beyond 'bad vibes.'

I'd say this is textbook active lurking.

Third, even if there is nothing in the thread that is changing your mind about your reads, that does not excuse you from engaging with other players.

Fourth, please explain your Axelrod vote. You started off the game quipping that because you're Town, you'll be honest and 'disclose things.' Pony up.

[Pine]

Eh, okay, that's fair. I haven't been as active lately, and the post count thing was a cheap shot.

However, seeing the same things over and over IS in fact a valid reason for not changing my mind, and for having a dearth of new input. What, you want me to come in and shitpost or reiterate what I've already said just to keep my activity to your standards? When there are players who actually HAVE been giving crap for content all game? (Looking at Chamber/Morality, KMD, Kison, CooldoG, Tywin here) Please, spare me the indignation.

i have this vague suspicion that hito and axel are scum together but i can't really put it into words right now

I can see that, yeah. Axel (like OM) has given me the vibe of using a lot of words to say not much. Hito is giving me overtly wolfy vibes, but I don't think a pro player like him would be that obvious. Or would he? Christ I just WIFOM-bombed myself.

I'd lynch any in {Chamber, Old Man, Axel} right now. {Hito, Firebringer} also giving me bad vibes, but are not D1 lynches atm due to insufficient confidence.

This was my primary reason for Axelrod. I stand by it. He's saying not a lot, but using a ton of words to not say it in.

I don't require a page and a half of reasoning for a read, especially on D1. Further, withholding a lengthy explanation also puts pressure on people, and I wanted to see what Axelrod would do. He's continuing to do more of the same.

[Pine]

Also, this just in, PJ is Town. Doing his research, calling people on their shit, making me actually re-evaluate. That's Townish enough, at least for now.

[Eddie Cane]

I can talk down to you if you wish. I think you play like a jerk. You put others down while hoisting yourself up. You play with an ego, and it's a problem. I am very close to replacing out of this game because I would rather not try to continue playing with you.

Well then try talking to me like a equal and don't post dumb shit like "adding a wink" I'm engaging with you just fine. I'm not trying to make the game unenjoyable for you, I am enjoying it more myself now that every post isn't either at or about me.

In the first you cite (Mini Normal #1931, your 'style' was apparently to intentionally antagonize people to get 'reads' on them.

Because generally, I try to only talk down to people who I know aren't going to suffer personally from it. The two individual people I was most condescending to are probably Dunker and Una, and Dunker and I are fine and Una became my fanboy after that game (literally he's a cool kid). I also successfully docced twice out of 3 times in that game and sheeping my reads won it. I don't appreciate when everything you address to me is like you're trying to teach me. I need to work on my scum game, its good but it needs work. My town game is one of the best on site out of active players because I know how to push shit and read people. You are still talking to me like I'm a weaker new player who needs help.

2.) Eddie Cane, what do you think of Pine?

Still fits the bill of town lean. I don't have a strong read on him, I don't have any inclination to want to lynch him. General enjoyable presence.

You were waiting on me before doing...anything?

You'll get to where in the thread that explains this soon enough.

Still excited to see what KMD says in reply to me.

[CooLDoG]

reasons to move your vote off of eddie: just look how scummy old man is being!

unvote
vote: old man

(also mainly that eddie wagon just feels wrong on a gut level)

Parrrot vote with no input or actual scumhunting.

Compared to everyone else, he is a newbie. I'm not referring to "newbie" as in the neophytes who have no idea how to play Mafia in the newbie queue. I have made this very apparent. I mean that Eddie Cane is young to Mafiascum, and it

looks to me that the fast wagon on a player outside of the 'old-player' caste is NOT a mere coincidence

. I do not like it! Have I made myself clear?

I'm here to play mafia, not to find a job in Marketing. You are free to "not buy" what I'm "selling". I have an opinion on the Eddie Cane wagon and I'm making it clear as day.

Prove how it is alignment indicative or gtfo.

I forgot:

UNVOTE: Chamber
VOTE: Tywin Lannister

To give the chamber slot and replacement some space while I'm V/LA.

I have real trouble understanding this vote oldman. You have been making points that are at least not insane about other players in this game that would lead me to think that you think that they are scum. Then you vote someone that is more or less off your radar It's like, I would have guessed one of the more "contemplative" players would have voted for a read he contemplated. It seems, at least to me, like tywin was his least developed read at this point, and would not be the hop off of the rvs vote. I am not liking old man's play. Nor am I liking Pines.

My intent was to determine your competency level as scum. Pine has helpfully offered his self-meta and opinion of his competencies as the two main alignments. I've yet to diagnose yours.

Perhaps you should take up those Marketing classes after all because this is a terrible, terrible sales job.

I'd love for others to weigh in if they think you honestly were trying to get me to disclose some sort of self-assessment as scum as opposed to a specific attempt to insult and undermine.

Anyone not OldMan - please weigh in on this issue.

yeah, the self-meta is obviously bullshit and reads as being hyper defensive when no one cares. If he is town, then he quotes self meta and plays towards his town meta. If he is scum, then he quotes his town meta and plays like his town meta. Either way it is purely a survivalist tactic designed to not get him lynched. I see no reason why town pine, who is under limited if any real pressure at this point, would feel the need to prempt meta attacks. So yeah, its some bullshit on Pine's part, it reads scummy and is worth a vote at this stage of the game in all honesty. ~that's at least the PGO's humble read.

See, if you perceive that OM is trying to put you on tilt in order to get scum!MoI to be reckless and make a revelatory mistake, that should obviate your scumread on him. But...it isn't.

Now I *do* suspect you, for this cogdis.

Um ... I think it is ScumOM trying to take TownMoI's focus away from finding scum besides himself and instead get into a wall battle that most likely serves to turn off most players. Where do you get the conclusion that I think it is a Town OM tactic and that it lessens my scumread on him?

I may have misinterpreted your "on tilt" comment. I accept this explanation for now.

more content less nothing posts from pine.

eddie i don't think you're scum but that doesn't mean i think all your reads are right. old man is all in on whiteknighting you, making your opinion of him pretty much the least consequential of anyone. don't take these things personally, difference of opinion in a mafia game should never be seen as "a slap in the face."

if i have to read one more seventeen sentence paragraph on the minutia of what constitutes a newbie under what circumstances i'm going to lose my marbles. from my understanding geriatric games are meant to free us from the shackles of overactive games that the average player couldn't keep up with. writing a novella every time you post causes just about the same problem, and old man is pontificating for the sake of burying this thread in his wordiness and trying to bait people into wall battling him. let's kick this game inaugural geriatric game off with an appropriate dose of dramatic irony by lynching the elderly.

tl;dr please help me feed old man the rope

1) the top part says nothing. Your a null read and I disagree with some of your reads... just like pretty much everyone else on the player list....
2) more contetentless and incorrect garbage. hyper active games feature swift changes in game state that require immediate action from players, where geriatrics do not due to post limit.

Aka OldMan wants to lynch a relational tell when he doesn’t believe the relations that tell is based on. Aka scum fabricating beliefs instead of actually scumhunting. Or distancing from a partner.

moi' great case on Oldman concludes with this. *shrug*. I'm suspending judgment at this point, but I don't think moi is entirly wrong in his analysis.

Done with moving. Will still be a little patchy as I get situated but I'm not V/LA at least.


I think I agree with Old Man 147 that Tywin 99 is kind of just plain scummy regardless of Eddie/Pine, without it being super associative like I was billing it at first.

This is correct, simply because the argument would be strengthened by a relational tell does not then make tywin town. His posting could be scummy for other reasons. I need more content from him before I can form a read one way or the other. suspending judgment on this issue entirely.

I'm starting to come around to where you are on Old Man. There's a lot there that seems disingenuous and calculated, and I'm not a fan. I'll be keeping my vote on Chamber, but I could see moving there too.

I think roflcopter may be my spirit animal this game. We seem to be pretty in sync.

I don't like the vote hold - chamber is getting replaced out, and the OM wagon has more traction, so if you like it why not hop on a wagon in motion instead of keeping your vote camped on a dude who's leaving?

I'll take a double vote, Fire, sure.

"It's for this chamber wagon I've been sitting on and barely talking about all game. come on pull up a chair"

[...]

Old Man's style is annoying to read without some flips. It's kind of the same tone I affected with Copper, where it's so deliberate it's easy to fake as scum.

Still don't like Pine or Tywin. Could maybe go for an Eddie wagon. But all three of those feel like they're in the state where I want to heavily index on their next few posts, so for now I kinda want to just flashwagon Kison and see what happens when he has to do something other than coast

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kison

This post makes absolutely no sense to me. The first point quote is basically not to worry about any of the reads you actually have, but to simply vote for the wagon that has traction. A literal appeal to peer pressure here. The chamber wagon is also releativly new and lasted until page 5 or 6 really. I'll repeat that. Page 5. or. page 6. All day is a bit of a fucking stretch here, especially after the fallout of a really big rvs wagon.

I don't understand how old man's posting style is going to change to be enjoyable after flips..... More importantly, I ALSO DON'T UNDERSTAND THE LOVE FOR THE RVS WAGON. In essence I read this as hito being okay with either of the two bigger wagons, encouraging big wagons to get bigger and discouraging counter wagons. This reads to me as SCUM, trying to lynch whatever they can without caring much about the consequences. And then the off the fucking wall kison vote for little to no stated reason.

This post raises more questions than it could possibly answer. gawd. Massive scum points to hito I think...

My biggest takeaway from it is what I've already said: Axel, who didn't actually join the wagon but sorta kinda condoned it & threw his vote in with Pine instead. It really did read as "I don't want to be #7 on this thing."

But alignment-wise, how do you interpret not wanting to be #7 on that thing? To me, that seems to make sense for any permutation of alignments, but this post gives me the impression you have a specific takeaway you're drawing from it.

I have some trouble understanding why town would want to be in the position of the 7th vote on an already large bandwagon.

BULSHIT META POSTING GARBAGE

Kison on the other hand – I just feel his posting is “just there” for lack of a better phrase. Maybe he is indeed warming up. But everything he’s written certainly can come from either alignment easily I think. So I need more.

I agree with this point. I do feel as if Kison is phoning it in a bit and is not engaging as much with he content that has been posted as he could have.

AND SPEAK OF THE DEVIL BUT:

Spent the past 3 hours reading this game slowly instead of skimming and only made it to page 7 . Lots of people were entirely forgettable. Will finish & reread again coming from another angle.

For now, Old Man is still where I want my vote. Just about everything about his play rubs looks off since his... grand debut...
- Calling me town for my RVS vote of him is nutso. He spent an paragraph explaining it like it was some grand revelation.
- Then voting Chamber when his vote was basically identical to mine. His entire spat with chamber makes him look pretty bad actually.
- Big bad posts, lots of fluff. Why bring up the topic of alts & write a novel on it when it's not really relevant anymore? MoI's post #

140

reflects closely what I thought of it when I saw it.

Just about the only thing I agree with him on is not liking the Eddie wagon.

Axel's later posts look better. Nothing particular stood out other than those 2 early posts where he votes Pine. However, one thing I don't like is despite a high level of content, he seems pretty reluctant to take strong stances. There's Pine/Eddie & "chamber is a bit dodgy" in response to my earlier question. Has anything changed here?

Firebringer's walls stood out & leave a lot to be desired.

Firebringer:

Who besides MoI do you think is scum?? Your read on him is cRaZeE IMO. I made it through your posts. Somehow. I still have no idea where you stand on pretty much anything else except wanting a Pine town block. And you like Chamber. I don't think you're trying.

I'm sleepy.

1) is correct, his reaction test was dumb.
2)Explain your read on the chamber vote better.
3) He does fluff post a lot.

I will agree that Axel's more recent posting is better. I will also agree that I have not seen him take strong reads as of yet. Chamber is a bit fucking dudgey, and so is pine. Eddie not so much.

I don't really have any issue with fire's posting to be perfectly honest. it seems fine to me at least.

I still think

Old Man's

posts are superficial in actual content. I still like many of Magna's posts regarding Old Man.

THIS IS NOT TRUE. They are fluffy, but he actually does say some shit. It isn't like he is saying nothing, just using too many words to make minor points. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE between these two. (Your foflcoptr case is good and your vote well justified. I too suspect him. Also wall wars are bad if they are about meta or other such stupidity).

Okay, I've had enough. Korts's biased mod intervention pretty much made the game unenjoyable for me when he overlooked how Magna starting being a dick to myself and other players first. And, I didn't even use abusive language, at the least let us settle it among ourselves. Anyway, I am no longer enjoying myself.

What the hell are ya'll smoking with this personal attacks non-sense narrative for this game? No really, someone pass me the bowl please.

Forgive my ignorance, but is this "You will be mod-confirmed as Town at the start of D2?"

I am able to manually request for the mod confirmation of my slot as Town at any point from D2 onwards.

why. just why. Why the hell would you claim this d1. explain.

I could, but I choose not to.

vote:pine

ok i can't find it, maybe somebody else said that, too much to go digging for right now

whatever, axel is scum anyway

axel why is your vote still parked on pine? do you still think eddie is scummy (you said early on that you would vote him if not for being at l-2 already)? do you have any other scumreads yet? because for all you've written this game, what i can remember of you is voteparking on pine, cheerleading the eddie wagon, giving kmd a red flag for being on the eddie wagon, and repeatedly defending old man while not quite calling him a townread.

This is in fact the reason why one would vote for axel if they thought he was scum. I don't have a real issue with the vote, I just think there are more scummy people than him atm.

Echoing Pine, no point lynching Old Man today if we'll see whether his claim is legit tomorrow. I'm also skeptical of it.

UNVOTE: Old Man
VOTE: Firebringer

I've got a rope with your name on it, boi. Tell me who the scum are. Besides MoI.

well, there is another vote out of nowhere. I'm liking pine and kison as scum at the moment. inconsistent reads. odd votes. little justification. A lot of no content posts... hmm.... the two reads are unrelated and I can find no relational tell between the two. They are similar in nature though. firebringer is VI on a bad day, null on a good one.

Forgot

VOTE: Hito

a good vote and a good catch-up post as well. No reason to view tywin as scum. Stays null.

I read hitos wall as reactionary and silly. At one point he mentions that eddie and pine were nothing players (far from the truth as they are much of the talk of the town), and an encouragement to go ahead and vote with the wagon that has currently built up steam.

More scum points to hito, enough that I would be willing to vote if pine doesn't deserve it more.

what if old man is some kind of powerful scum role that they just really need to have alive on night one?

fuck no are we lynching oldman d1. If ya'll end up following the above line of thought then this town is full of degenerate morons. Scum points to rofl for suggesting actual idiocy.

This is a non-bastard game

..... The quick and dirty explanation is that we can always force oldman to confirm himself under threat of lynch, thus if he doesn't then we can always kill him. The wifom is only of some rb happening. CERTAINLY not something we want to go ahead and resolve d1 when scum will most certainly have to try and kill him at some point, and adding in possible doctor saves or "Free" resolution to his alignment via scum kill. so fuck no are we doing that. Also even in the worst case, he get's rb'd, scum still waste the shot on him, so we get another cop roll or other such investigates...

[CooLDoG]

I can't be assed to read the remaing 2 pages, so call this a catch-up. I'll get more tomorrow and be able to post more in the flow from this point onward.

[Kmd4390]

Got a little bit of time. Gonna try to do Page 7 at least.

This is a good segway to why KMD is scum (1). Look at TM18. At the beginning of my game people but particularly LLD, Bulba, and T-Bone were all talking down to me - they "could not believe" a player could respect my reads. At the end of TM, the host said I played singularly the out of the tournament. The relevant part is here: https://gyazo.com/15919b28a5faa5e91f27695039bd9830 where KMD changed the tide of the game and people stopped being guzzlers. Its the same thing here, where people don't know me and don't respect me as a player, and town!KMD should have at least pointed out I'm not some newbie or shit. It was obvious to me from pregame that I was gonna get wagoned and/or mislynched at some point this game due to circlejerk, and it wasn't really surprising people managed to find a reason to wagon me before I posted. I would think town!KMD would defend me as a player rather than hopping on the wagon on the newbie, so yes, that's >rand chance of being scum, but its RVS. I was waiting to see if he'd defend people as people kept talking down to me, and he didn't. I would have rathered wait longer to give it more of a chance before saying it but V/LA.

There are quite a few differences between that game and this one:
1) T-Bone seemed to think Mathdino was lying about that being my real thought and I got pissed. When I get pissed, sometimes that shifts my focus to the thing I'm pissed about. For about one RL day I cared more about T-Bone accusing my team of lying about something so stupid than I cared about playing the game.
2) Mathdino was my voice in that game. I couldn't post and could only talk through him. He's more assertive, loud, forceful, active, persuasive, etc than I am. My opinions probably came off stronger through him than they would have through me.
3) I wasn't doing anything with peoples' reads on me in mind. People act like trying to look town is scummy. I do it as town too. My filters we're off because I was talking to someone who knew my thoughts were genuine.
4) I had free time. Team Mafia started while I was on vacation. No work for three weeks. I had all kinds of time to read multiple games, keep up, give thoughts, and occasionally do all kinds of work I normally can't on these games.
5) I'd never seen negative opinions of you, or at least not any that stuck in my mind. I was surprised to see it because I assumed anyone who had experience with you would know you are a good player. You listed in this very paragraph people who I've seen negative opinions of you from. It's no longer new to me even though I still disagree with them and respect your play.

There are probably more, but those are what immediately come to mind. It's not the same game by any means. As for my wagon hop, I didn't see anything scummy in the first few posts, so sheeping Magna and joining a wagon seemed productive enough. I didn't see it as wagoning a newbie because I don't see you as a newbie.

_______________

Didn't finish the page but I got distracted by the above.

[Eddie Cane]

Eddie's wagon -
1. Magna's vote is what started it. He's the one who brought up the confirmations. I'd ask why he brought it up, but I mean...first post outside of confirmations, it's like the only thing that can really stand out. I don't see any reason why town or scum is more likely to notice that.

2. Insanity's vote is clearly wagoning for the sake of wagoning. That's normal in RVS. Also doesn't give me a read.

3. Hito's vote is more of the same along with an RQS-type question which I don't how it could be scummy unless someone wants to argue that he's buddying Rofl, but I don't see it. I'd give Hito a weak town read if anything.

4.Jelly's vote is the first one that stands out to me. He voted after Eddie posted and questioned him on it. He was the fifth vote. In my opinion, Jelly is the one who made this a serious push and it's not a push I like.

5. Chamber's vote isn't great in my opinion. It was delayed and came right after Pine began pressuring him (Chamber). It seemed more like he felt obligated to match his vote to his words than it felt like he was voting where he genuinely believed he'd find scum.

Pine's reaction - I believe him that he had a ruleset question and I believe him about what that question was. It was weird to me at first that he didn't specify what it was but I can see him not wanting to go into it. He initially replied calmly which means he wasn't at all rattled by being a topic of conversation to start the game. He gets a little heated later on, but nothing in that feels out of the ordinary for him.

Chamber's reaction to Eddie's reaction and Pine's vote on Chamber - I'm not sure what Chamber saw that he didn't like. Also not sure why Pine sees scum motivation in Chamber's post. I'm interested to know both of those things.

Axelrod - This one is weird to me. He seems to think that the case is that Eddie and Pine confirmed in a scum PT. I don't think anyone ever said that? Being willing to believe that, however, would have to be faked if he was scum and I think it's a reach to say that he'd think to do that at this point. Choosing to vote Pine over Eddie stands out as weird, but I don't think it's scummy. I'm gonna go ahead and throw Axel in the town bin for now...

Kison's reaction - Is the only opinion you have really that it's "silly"? No more details than that? Nothing on the people on the wagon?

But you had posted since these posts happened, and kept your vote on me and said nothing. Posts like 79 did not give any indication you weren't following the game. Why didn't you call out those votes sooner? Idgi.

[Tywin Lannister]

Spoiler:

6.)

hitogoroshi, your reasoning in Post #262 seems a bit simplistic.

Players can attack a scummy case on Player X without knowing (or having to decide) if Player X is Town or Scum. And if they think the case itself is bad (or 'scum-motivated,' as was implied), it stands to reason that they are not likely to join the wagon.

But surely the thing that makes the case scummy is the fact that scum are trying to mislynch? I don't think it's that scummy to do bad pushes on scum (in fact, I've seen games blown open because a dumb D1 wagon hit scum, and all of the votes were so arbitrary that it was an unlikely bus).

I mean, the argument holds true in that you can say "This is kind of an unsound case, so I think one possibility is that this is Player Y trying to mislynch Player X. If this is true, Player X is town, but I'm not sure that's the most likely interpretation of events here." The issue is how obsessive Twyin was about attacking the Eddie/Pine push and how much his scum reads are sourced from people pursuing it, vs the extreme reluctance to actually talk about Eddie/Pine. I really don't think this is one possibility among many for Tywin, y'know? Like, if I dayvigged Pine right now and he flipped red, can you think of any of Tywin's arguments that would still be coherent? Because I personally think he would need to rethink just about everything - which is why his "I can't even remember them" stance seems so artificial to me.

I’m active lurking. There’s just a lot of wall posts so I’m trying to have my catchup be in a wall post, so I’m skimming a lot, but I’ll get to it when I get to my computer finally

give your top 2 scum and town reads from wherever you're at in the thread with no justification

The issue I have with you is that I don't SR Pine, and both his and Eddie's cases were shit the wagons that you, axel, petroleum, and a few others saw and jumped on wholeheartedly, making it serious. You've kept your same exact read all game long based on a shitty rvs wagon that others left in the dust after forming better reads. You continue to say Pine (But not Eddie???) is scum for the confirmation thing, so you've attached me as a partner due to me saying those wagons were shit. I maintain that stance still, and because the fact that both got wagons first, going as far as L1 or L2 almost immediately makes me assume it was scum driven 100%.

The reason is obvious to me, but I'll try to explain. I've played mafia for a long time now both on MS and elsewhere, even before I create d this name (I forgot my older ones), and what I've seen in nearly every single game aside from a very small minority is that the first wagon or two is almost always on town. If the wagon is a bullshit case, it's almost 100% on town. I assume this in every single game, because it's a simple fact. Odds are that theyre scum driven when a player gets a fast wagon almost immediately after the game starts. Your one experience seeing it land on scum D1 without an actual reason beyond people not playing seriously is nothing more than a bad outlier. In fact, you defending that one and only time deal as a reason to be calling Pine, and thus me, 100% scum is a huge ping. It shows you have no real case on anyone. You don't have actual reads. It's just your scum way to form fake reads imo. I don't see how a competent townie would be unable to form solid reads past RVS with this much content.

Also, its telling that you currently vote me istead of Pine, when your read on me is entirely based on Pine flipping scum, rather than vice versa. You are pushing me instead of your main SR, just like you voted Kison instead of Pine or me prior to me calling you out for it.

What's this all add up to? It says you don't have any real reads, and the one solid read you claim to have (Pine), you avoid voting. Instead, you make some claim like if you dayvig Pine and he flips scum, I have no excuses. Well, then why aren't you trying to flip Pine? If you go after me first, and I flip town, will that clear Pine? No, so what are you doing? Ill say what I think. You're trying to set up multiple misslynches in a row. There's no logical town reason to vote the way you have, even granting you a pass on having zero solid reads beyond an rvs wagon you sheeped. You just want misslynches, rather than pursue anyone that you actually SR that will give more info in future reads. If Pine flips, then that gives more info in how you claimed to read me, but that isn't the case by voting me or Kison. Basically, I'm saying you're doing it on purpose to set up future mislynches. Your entire play so far looks scum motivated.

Oh, and I never said I forgot Pine or Eddie exist. I said I dont care about them today, because they aren't my focus. I don't SR them, so why would they be? My scum pool are the ones who hard pushed bad rvs wagons and continue to do so. If you vote one of them, I think it should be based on their responses, not the confirmation thing, and in that situation, Eddie looks scummier of the two. He didn't even join the game until later, while Pine looked pretty upfront about the situation from the start. You TR Eddie though and went after Pine (along with Axel mostly) almost 100%, rather than also look at Eddie at all. Your reasoning for SRing Pine is no different than why you should supposedly SR Eddie, yet that is not what happened. Axel did the exact same thing, ignoring Eddie and going hard after Pine, when both had the same case. Looks like a pair of scum buddies to me. Its possible Eddie is your scum buddie too based on how you both ignored him in favor of Pine, but that's only if you flip scum first. Aka you and Axel (and to a lesson extent PJ) are the best scum to flip today.

Magma: looks like you're asking me why I don't SR Eddie, not because of the wagon, but because his responses were bad? Well, I agree with you. He did look fairly scummy at the start, although he did start playing after. I just see the wagon on him and Pine as being scummier based on what specific players did with it, plus what they are still trying to do with it. I see both wagons as being scum driven, although if one of them were scum, my guess is it would be Eddie. That's based on pairing Axel/Hito going after only Pine. Notice that Axel and Hito ignored Eddie entirely and went hard after Pine instead, although their reasoning should've also fit Eddie just as much. Both failed to confirm in the thread, so why give one a pass and not the other?

I give both a pass, because I think the original reasoning was very bad, and I SR everyone that hard pushed it and continue to do so without forming any other reads. Hito is the biggest one to fit this bill, while Axel is second based on earlier posts that happened during the main push. Hito still SRs Pine and me, yet I'm supposedly a SR based on Pine flipping scum. If he flips town, then what? Me flipping town doesn't make Pine town though, so doesn't it make more sense for Hito to be voting Pine, rather than me or Kison? Me flipping town still sets him up for flipping Pine as his OG SR, and if Pine also flips town, then what? He has no other actual reads, and everything is based around the RVS wagon that you dont believe anymore. You're saying Eddie is scum from what I understand, but based on his responses after, not because of the confirmation thing. So if the starter of the rvs wagon doesn't go with it anymore, what is Hito doing sheeping it to death still? If he truely believed it, then why is he not voting Pine?

[hitogoroshi]

However, seeing the same things over and over IS in fact a valid reason for not changing my mind, and for having a dearth of new input. What, you want me to come in and shitpost or reiterate what I've already said just to keep my activity to your standards? When there are players who actually HAVE been giving crap for content all game? (Looking at Chamber/Morality, KMD, Kison, CooldoG, Tywin here) Please, spare me the indignation.
...
I don't require a page and a half of reasoning for a read, especially on D1. Further, withholding a lengthy explanation also puts pressure on people, and I wanted to see what Axelrod would do. He's continuing to do more of the same.

Right, but withholding pressure DOES mean you're influencing the town less. The prevailing winds are shifting off of Axelrod and towards Tywin and KMD. How do you feel about those? Are they happy compromises for you or would you be really upset about one of them being lynched over Axel?

This post makes absolutely no sense to me. The first point quote is basically not to worry about any of the reads you actually have, but to simply vote for the wagon that has traction. A literal appeal to peer pressure here. The chamber wagon is also releativly new and lasted until page 5 or 6 really. I'll repeat that. Page 5. or. page 6. All day is a bit of a fucking stretch here, especially after the fallout of a really big rvs wagon.

But OM is the read he did have, that was my point. It just seems weird to say you'd be willing to switch, but for now you're staying, when the wagon you'd be okay switching to is moving and you're not pushing the one you're on. Doubly so because chamber was being replaced.

I don't understand how old man's posting style is going to change to be enjoyable after flips.....

It's not that it's more enjoyable, it's just that he's -- actually I remember that I wrote a explanation the last time I played with a super-clinical player (Accountant) so I'll just post that:

I think that Accountant has one of the very clinical playstyles where you can chiefly read him on two things - effort and relation to flips. A player like that becomes harder to gut read (because their style is easier to replicate as scum; I actually started the Copper hydra exactly to set a more scum-friendly baseline), but it ALSO leaves a lot less room to wiggle out of bad associations. In terms of effort Accountant obviously gets a super A, so I'm super comfortable giving Accountant a mild town read and revisiting after flips. There have also been a few towntells like the one I mentioned at the beginning.

More importantly, I ALSO DON'T UNDERSTAND THE LOVE FOR THE RVS WAGON. In essence I read this as hito being okay with either of the two bigger wagons, encouraging big wagons to get bigger and discouraging counter wagons. This reads to me as SCUM, trying to lynch whatever they can without caring much about the consequences. And then the off the fucking wall kison vote for little to no stated reason.

The Kison vote I covered already. And hell yeah I want big wagons to get bigger - it's really difficult to try to get reads when people don't consolidate because talk is cheap if it's not likely to lead to action. I like counterwagons as long as the people pushing them believe they will get big. What I hate is people who aren't influencing the lynch and seem fine with it, barring a very specific reason why they're not. (Eg, things like "I'm gonna dick around a bit while my main suspect is on V/LA" isn't a big deal if deadline is far away.)

I read hitos wall as reactionary and silly. At one point he mentions that eddie and pine were nothing players (far from the truth as they are much of the talk of the town), and an encouragement to go ahead and vote with the wagon that has currently built up steam.

More scum points to hito, enough that I would be willing to vote if pine doesn't deserve it more.

No, the "nothing" comment is from Tywin's wall, namely that he sorted the players like this:

Axelrod is still scum. Nothing changed.

Hito claims I'm scum because of Pine, yet he isn't voting Pine or me. Scum

Petroleumjelly decided to renounce their self-identity as a sheep stuck in a humans body. Still scum, but playing better.

Magma is town. I agree with his thought process.

Roflcopter is town. Said Axel and Hito are scum.

Kison is town. Hito voting him.

Morality I honestly can't remember ever seeing them post in this game. Null

Firebringer is impossible to read due shitposting. Null

CoolDog I haven't seen post since his original RVS claim. Null

Is there anyone else? I can't remember them.

So, tl;dr:

Lynch Pool: Axel, Hito, Petroleum

Not touching pool: Magma, Rofl, Kison

Don't care: everyone else

With his only comment about them in that post that he's "not lynching them for previously stated reasons". And which "wagon that has currently built up steam" are you referring to here? Because if you mean Tywin's, I'm vote #2 on it, so it's pretty silly to cast this as an opportunism thing when I'm in the weeds actively trying to make it a viable wagon.

[hitogoroshi]

The issue I have with you is that I don't SR Pine, and both his and Eddie's cases were shit the wagons that you, axel, petroleum, and a few others saw and jumped on wholeheartedly, making it serious. You've kept your same exact read all game long based on a shitty rvs wagon that others left in the dust after forming better reads. You continue to say Pine (But not Eddie???) is scum for the confirmation thing, so you've attached me as a partner due to me saying those wagons were shit. I maintain that stance still, and because the fact that both got wagons first, going as far as L1 or L2 almost immediately makes me assume it was scum driven 100%.

I don't think the confirmation thing is scummy - I just joined to make a big wagon early and then I swapped to Pine because I didn't like his reaction. See ISO 2.

Also, its telling that you currently vote me istead of Pine, when your read on me is entirely based on Pine flipping scum, rather than vice versa. You are pushing me instead of your main SR, just like you voted Kison instead of Pine or me prior to me calling you out for it.

I did vote Pine first. I only swapped off because I wanted to see more from all three of you-Pine-Eddie before trying to push any more, and my vote wasn't gonna do anything until I was confident enough in a push because the Pine wagon wasn't movin. Voting Kison was just to see if we could conjure up some random pressure on an active lurker and see what happens, but no one else liked that idea.

If you vote one of them, I think it should be based on their responses, not the confirmation thing, and in that situation, Eddie looks scummier of the two. He didn't even join the game until later, while Pine looked pretty upfront about the situation from the start. You TR Eddie though and went after Pine (along with Axel mostly) almost 100%, rather than also look at Eddie at all. Your reasoning for SRing Pine is no different than why you should supposedly SR Eddie, yet that is not what happened. Axel did the exact same thing, ignoring Eddie and going hard after Pine, when both had the same case. Looks like a pair of scum buddies to me. Its possible Eddie is your scum buddie too based on how you both ignored him in favor of Pine, but that's only if you flip scum first. Aka you and Axel (and to a lesson extent PJ) are the best scum to flip today.

I...don't TR Eddie? I think he's a less likely buddy than Pine but that's not exactly a high bar to get over. But most of my suspicion about Eddie is predicated on his interactions with other people, whereas you and Pine have things I don't like in isolation, which is why an Eddie wagon is more of a consolation prize to me.

Also for those playing along, look at these two statements from literally the same post:

The reason is obvious to me, but I'll try to explain. I've played mafia for a long time now both on MS and elsewhere, even before I create d this name (I forgot my older ones), and what I've seen in nearly every single game aside from a very small minority is that the first wagon or two is almost always on town. If the wagon is a bullshit case, it's almost 100% on town. I assume this in every single game, because it's a simple fact. Odds are that theyre scum driven when a player gets a fast wagon almost immediately after the game starts. Your one experience seeing it land on scum D1 without an actual reason beyond people not playing seriously is nothing more than a bad outlier.

Eddie is so town, you guys. Every single time there's an early flashwagon for silly reasons it's scum-driven and on town. It's a simple fact.

I see both wagons as being scum driven, although if one of them were scum, my guess is it would be Eddie. That's based on pairing Axel/Hito going after only Pine. Notice that Axel and Hito ignored Eddie entirely and went hard after Pine instead, although their reasoning should've also fit Eddie just as much. Both failed to confirm in the thread, so why give one a pass and not the other?

But also Eddie might be my scumbuddy.

That's the essential problem I have: that when it comes to attacking me and Axel, Eddie and Pine are so super obviously town, but that doesn't bleed over into his read of Eddie and Pine themselves, which he constantly just says is "the wagons are enough I won't read them today" and then defers talking about or to them any more. It feels like he has one mental box of "Things I can attack other players for" and another box of "The reads I am purporting to have" and he's not keeping them in sync. Like, to address PJ's earlier point, there totally is a world out there where a townie thinks "Well, I don't have a read on player X, but I hate player Y's push on them, so let's push player Y and if I'm right then I get the Player X town read as a freebie." The problem is the

intensity

of Part A here, and how it basically encompasses his sum view of the gamestate (Hito and Axel are scum, people hito and axel think are scum are town, people who don't like hito and axel are town),

except

as it pertains to Eddie and Pine themselves. Re-read Part A and ask yourself if you've ever written shit like that for someone you

wouldn't

call a townread.

[Eddie Cane]

I maintain that stance still, and because the fact that both got wagons first, going as far as L1 or L2 almost immediately makes me assume it was scum driven 100%.

The reason is obvious to me, but I'll try to explain. I've played mafia for a long time now both on MS and elsewhere, even before I create d this name (I forgot my older ones), and what I've seen in nearly every single game aside from a very small minority is that the first wagon or two is almost always on town. If the wagon is a bullshit case, it's almost 100% on town. I assume this in every single game, because it's a simple fact. Odds are that theyre scum driven when a player gets a fast wagon almost immediately after the game starts. Your one experience seeing it land on scum D1 without an actual reason beyond people not playing seriously is nothing more than a bad outlier. In fact, you defending that one and only time deal as a reason to be calling Pine, and thus me, 100% scum is a huge ping. It shows you have no real case on anyone. You don't have actual reads. It's just your scum way to form fake reads imo. I don't see how a competent townie would be unable to form solid reads past RVS with this much content.

viewtopic.php?p=9454354#p9454354

No, day 1 flash wagons are not "scum driven 100%", lol. If there's a day 1 flash lynch, and its on town, then there's always scum on the wagon. That's about the only useful theory thing to extrapolate from them. The speed a wagon forms is not AI. If that's all you're townreading (or not...? I don't know what most of your reads are besides a weird ladder of x srs y so z is scum) us for, shame. what are your strong reads in either direction?

I...don't TR Eddie?

Tsk tsk. Not living up to god status. Might need to switch my favourite to Kison.


VOTE: Morality

post boonskiies

[Kmd4390]

Oh I get it ... Eddie is just like Mathdino and RC. Well now at least I can calibrate my analysis of his posts through that particular filter. More later ...

Um...no? Those are three very different players.

_____________________

I don't get the Old Man votes. Kison and Rofl didn't really do anything to explain those.

_____________________

Through Page 7.