Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831


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Post Post #400 (ISO) » Wed May 09, 2018 7:28 am

Post by Kmd4390 »

Hito, yes that's where my scum read on Jelly came from.

______________

Axel, sure some scum lurk. And if there is meta to back that up on someone, sign me up for their Lynch. But luckily, you're talking about me and I have all kinds of meta you can look at. You will find games where I'm active as town, games where I'm active as scum, games where I'm less active as town, and games where I'm less active as scum. What every one of those games has in common is my activity depends on real life, not alignment. What you won't find is a game where I lurked strategically as scum. It's poor strategy and that is one opinion I've kept from the time I played my very first game right up to now. I was actually town in the only game where I intend tionally held back (beloved princess to be specific) and that didn't work out.

As for the wuestions I asked, it's simply what stood out to me when I was reading that part of the thread. Nothing more, nothing less. I even gave you what was going through my head on the posts you singled out. Can you tell me why it's not valuable to know the things I asked there? I can understand it looking outdated by the way, but that's where I was in my read.
Axel wrote: Well, it's the timing of the post almost as much as the content of it. That was right after Chamber put down Vote #6, I believe. Vote #6 is no joke (or at least, it shouldn't be) Do you really not see where your post, immediately following that one, looks like tacit support for the wagon?
Timing just means that's when I was looking at the thread. I don't sit around on my phone all day watching the thread for when I should post. I do it when I can. And no, I don't see how not seeing a joke can be taken as support for a wagon. If anything, it was me saying I had no idea what Eddie was talking about, which says nothing about Eddie's alignment or his wagon. Just that I was waiting to see where he was going with things.
Axel wrote: Haven't actually made a case on Tywin yet. Mainly was just pointing out his own relatively low level of activity. I have not tried to dissect those long posts of his in great depth, but even from what I did read, I could see there were lots of generalizations and misrepresentations he was making. I imagine I will get around to pointing some of that out, later, if I decide to vote for him.
I'm going from memory here and have no time to check but could have sworn you said that about me, not tywin. Either way, I'd like to see the specifics.

___________________

Will respond to everyone else another time.
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Post Post #401 (ISO) » Wed May 09, 2018 7:52 am

Post by Kison »

Axel:
You ducking me???

Congrats Pine!
In post 368, Kison wrote:
In post 343, Axelrod wrote:Then there's a sequence where he, for lack of better words, "sucks up" to MoI a bit.
MoI - No? You're fantastic when scum, so I don't thoroughly trust my TR of you. Take that as the compliment it is intended.
It also deserves to be said that I *want* you to be Town. We universally work well together when we're on the same side.
Hey Old Man.

Be less smug and condescending. If you're so out of touch you don't have any idea who Magna is, you definitely need to fuck off of your high horse.
And proceeds to sheep MoI with a vote for Old Man after. None of that feels particularly Townie to me either.
This seems pretty weak to me. I don't see those posts as sucking up, or at least, I don't think scum-Pine would be foolish enough to think he could manipulate town-MoI that way. Why do you think his vote was sheeping?

I'd like to know what you think about Firebringer's posting as well.
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Post Post #402 (ISO) » Wed May 09, 2018 8:27 am

Post by Axelrod »

In post 401, Kison wrote:
Axel:
You ducking me???

Congrats Pine!
In post 368, Kison wrote:
In post 343, Axelrod wrote:Then there's a sequence where he, for lack of better words, "sucks up" to MoI a bit.
MoI - No? You're fantastic when scum, so I don't thoroughly trust my TR of you. Take that as the compliment it is intended.
It also deserves to be said that I *want* you to be Town. We universally work well together when we're on the same side.
Hey Old Man.

Be less smug and condescending. If you're so out of touch you don't have any idea who Magna is, you definitely need to fuck off of your high horse.
And proceeds to sheep MoI with a vote for Old Man after. None of that feels particularly Townie to me either.
This seems pretty weak to me. I don't see those posts as sucking up, or at least, I don't think scum-Pine would be foolish enough to think he could manipulate town-MoI that way. Why do you think his vote was sheeping?

I'd like to know what you think about Firebringer's posting as well.
Yes, I am ducking you.










No, sorry, I completely missed you asked me something.

Agree to disagree on whether or not that constitutes sucking-up. Happy to concede it's "weak" as far as points of a case go. I have no idea what a "scum-Pine" would or would not do (is that a meta argument regarding Pine specifically?) but I think scum
in general
will try to cozy up to Townies who they think are strong players

As to whether Magna could be manipulated like that, who knows? I just asked Magna a question about why he said he had at least a vague Town lean on Pine.

Magna aside,
I
can get manipulated like that, and this I freely confess. One of the most frequent ways scum get by me is when they are posting about how Townie they think I'm being. It's a weakness in an otherwise decent game that I recognize in myself.

As to whether his vote was "sheeping," the vote came after Pine had made those other posts, and he specifically said that he was "coming around" to where Magna was on Old Man. It felt like he was sucking up to him, and following Magna's vote was the next progression. That's what I meant.

Firebringer is on my list of "people to review." He hasn't made much impression at all. Maybe I'll do that one next.
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Post Post #403 (ISO) » Wed May 09, 2018 8:47 am

Post by Pine »

@PJ (& others): I can't really do much at all with this game beyond skimming. It's far too dense and meaty.

Lady Pine is on an epidural now and is getting pretty close to ready to pop!
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Post Post #404 (ISO) » Wed May 09, 2018 10:26 am

Post by hitogoroshi »

Sorry for making this harder to read by not snipping the internal quotes, but Cooldog had bonkers incorrect rephrasings so I need to keep the originals.
In post 376, CooLDoG wrote:
In post 321, hitogoroshi wrote: Right, but withholding pressure DOES mean you're influencing the town less. The prevailing winds are shifting off of Axelrod and towards Tywin and KMD. How do you feel about those? Are they happy compromises for you or would you be really upset about one of them being lynched over Axel?
wow. Wow. WOW. This is pretty bad. Essentially it says you have to vote the already pretty large bandwagon otherwise you are scum. Wow. It's d1 and a freaking rvs. I do not understand at all. More scum points to hito for wanting to lynch whatever people want to lynch at the given moment and not thinking about actual scum reads.
That was a question, with a question mark. It's objectively true that Pine is choosing to exert minimal town pressure. Whether this is scummy is dependent on, in part, how he feels about the current momentum. If he purported to have a huge problem with the swelling Tywin wagon, then it would be a big problem that he's chilling on a listless vanity wagon, because it would imply his resistance is insincere. It's less scummy if he doesn't really care about the Tywin lynch, because then it's more plausible he's a townie who isn't exerting pressure but is fine with that for now.
CooLDoG wrote:
hito wrote:The Kison vote I covered already. And hell yeah I want big wagons to get bigger - it's really difficult to try to get reads when people don't consolidate because talk is cheap if it's not likely to lead to action. I like counterwagons as long as the people pushing them believe they will get big. What I hate is people who aren't influencing the lynch and seem fine with it, barring a very specific reason why they're not. (Eg, things like "I'm gonna dick around a bit while my main suspect is on V/LA" isn't a big deal if deadline is far away.)
"I litterally don't care who it is on, just get people closer to lynch. Never mind the fact that there might be significant reasons to not run people up on a band wagon really early like, idk, claims by prs and shit, but yeah, talk is cheap, so lets power lynch someone." that's at least what I got.
I like big wagons because the reads are more meaningful (I would much rather know how someone feels about a player being L-1 than how they feel about seven players having two votes each). This doesn't mean I always vote the biggest wagon (excepting RVS where I think it's generally the best play), but it
does
mean that I frequently encourage consolidating instead of everyone sitting on pet wagons. If someone has a vote down they don't think will lead to a lynch, they should find the best lynch they think they CAN get and move to it. So it's not "I don't care who the biggest wagon is on", it's "If you
don't like
who the biggest wagon is on, get on one you
do
like and make it bigger."

Also, if a town actually ever agrees to "not run people up on a band wagon really early", the entire game is a pointless waste of time until people agree lynches are possible again. It's not like you can get a pressure read off of anyone if their scumbuddies know that we've all agreed to not let anything come of it. Obviously it's not usually
correct
to lynch of the RVS wagon - I got off as soon as I found a read I actually liked. But it has to be
possible
, because why would scum act any different than town if they know that the person isn't getting lynched no matter what they do?
CooLDoG wrote:
In post 322, hitogoroshi wrote: I did vote Pine first. I only swapped off because
I wanted to see more from all three of you-Pine-Eddie before trying to push any more,
and my vote wasn't gonna do anything until I was confident enough in a push because the Pine wagon wasn't movin. Voting Kison was just to see if
we could conjure up some random pressure
on an active lurker and see what happens, but no one else liked that idea.
If you do not find this post scummy then I can't help you. On one hand talk is cheap, thus keep your votes, on the other pull-out and see what happens before pressuring. ALso hoping for random pressure instead of actively creating it. Mores scum points for admitting you want to be a parrot on big wagons.
I felt like I could do it because this town is quite frankly super undirected. If big wagons were afoot you're correct I would not have pulled out and gone on a random fishing expedition while waiting for more from my top scumreads. But since everyone is dicking around on onesie-twosie vanity wagons, seems like one of those days where I'll have to do a lot of wrangling - and if that's the case and we have plenty of time, I was fine taking my foot of the gas a bit to make sure I had a clear sense which lynch I wanted. I had enough things I was watching for that I figured I'd get something out of the next batch of Eddie/Pine/Tywin posts, and hey, I was right.

Let me break the rest into a separate post.
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Post Post #405 (ISO) » Wed May 09, 2018 10:27 am

Post by hitogoroshi »

In post 382, Axelrod wrote:Particularly in elaborating my Pine vote, in as much as (some) people seemed to have an issue that I'm still sitting with my initial vote on him.
It's actually pretty gross that your view is "I posted about it because people didn't like me sitting" and not "I posted about it in the hopes of getting other people to vote for Pine". Do you believe Pine will be lynched today? If yes, what do you suppose the path to that will look like? If no, why not?

I have good vibes from PJ 390 where he answered my comment of "I can't really remember his positions" by giving a read list. I didn't actually request reads, and I think scum there would have just thought "hey it's probably good if he can't really remember me".
In post 397, Eddie Cane wrote:Hito, can you link a couple scum and town games? What's the big difference? I looked in your ego search but couldn't find anything recent.
Yeah, I don't play too much.

Last town games were 17 Kilos of Cocaine (2017) and Accounting Mafia (2017). For scum you have to go back to FTL Mafia (2014) and Arkham Horror Smalltown II (2013).
Can you show me? Tywin is the last person I'd coach but me saying that doesn't really mean anything. I agree if Tywin is scum Pine is a likely bet for a partner.
Remember that was top-dome so I wasn't looking at the posts and was going off my memory of them. That being said, when I ISO you it was posts 261 and 323 I was remembering. Nominal "suspicion" on Tywin that it feels like you're not going to convert into a vote and instead is just telling him how he should post to get out of it.
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Post Post #406 (ISO) » Wed May 09, 2018 2:12 pm

Post by CooLDoG »

I'm too drunk for this shit tonight, sorry ya'll. I'll have something substantive tomorrow or saturday. Friday is going to be generally a shit show.
after a wank.
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Post Post #407 (ISO) » Wed May 09, 2018 4:08 pm

Post by Tammy »

I’m a big fat liar, sorry. Getting through today’s stack of papers took longer than I thought; I always thi I can do more than I can. I’m done grading papers thoiugh! Grading exams is less mentally exhausting, so tomorrow shouldn’t be a problem, I hope.
I am in the top 90% of scumhunters onsite!
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Post Post #408 (ISO) » Wed May 09, 2018 6:25 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

In post 397, Eddie Cane wrote:
In post 390, petroleumjelly wrote:I have not gotten the impression that Pine has been trying to sort you at all. Rather, Pine's posts appear to be defending you from the get-go (including Post #52, which you cite). He has not questioned you at all (if anything, he has supplied explanations for you), or really engaged with you. The only 'interaction' I can even find is when he "passed" on discussing Firebringer with you (see Post #174).
Sorting doesn't mean asking a bunch of questions. He's sorting my alignment, internally. It followed off our last game and recent games are always more fresh in your subconscious.
Can you give a more in-depth explanation? Why and where have you gotten the impression that Pine has been trying to "sort" you this game?
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Post Post #409 (ISO) » Wed May 09, 2018 9:10 pm

Post by Firebringer »

General long rant about game and thoughts.
I decided, hey lets comment and make a thought on every post since I have been gone. Cause you know. I need to give thoughts and really collect myself and ground myself somewhere.

So before I get started on my thoughts.
This is where I was before:

Town

Eddie Cane
Tammy/Chamber, PJ
Everyone Else
Pine
MOI
Scum


Ill do everyone a favor and spoiler this post so if you want to avoid long long posts.
Spoiler: Firebringer WORKS TO READ
This is organized in just me giving random thoughts as I read posts.

, the question asked rofl seems pointless. Role discussions are not fun when in hypotheticals and no one is actually claiming anything, unless I missed something. Which is possible. I also think eddie has been very active giving a lot of thoughts, disagree heavily with your analysis. Dislike your poking about my FRIENDO CANEO. PJ he is town, trust me.

good post by old man, can I give like three or four gold stars to this guy. I for the record know for a fact magna can fake all of this behavior. Like I said previously, he got me to townread him just by being a dick to me all game. That isn't AI when he does so. He will continue the scummy pushes though which is.

hey insanity. I don't know you well, but I feel like I should? You been around awhile. Have we played together? I am or was. I don't know where my vote is. I think eddie is good person to sheep day one. He nailed half my scum team in team mafia. So like I trust his skills as long as I think he is town, and I get that town vibe from him and I really want him to tell me if he can spot what I am townreading him for. I think I have hinted at before to him what I look for in his posts.

BOI!!!!!! EDDDIE MOTHER FUCKING CANE. I answered this toooooooo. Did I not? Don't tell me I am going crazy here with bad memories. I am too young for that shit. PJ I think is fairly easy to read, but as me and him discussed I have like no experience on a forum format for his scum game. I saw him at Cali Meet and I characterized his scum play as "Playing dumb" and I think I would see that here IN SOME FASHION. Which I didn't get at all. I think even small things we do in a fast paced environment are replicated in a forum session.

Its you, the mod, its me. We are all part of the mass delusion. I hope to god this day doesn't go on that long. I definitely can't keep this up for that long.

Your mom follows getriatric rules, PINE! Also congrats on Pinecone. Which I will probably say a million more times.

No idea. Not a great amount of experience with her. I can say I make similar posts to that when I am scum. Though I say it as town too.

Hito posts UGH. Meh. I agree with his point about townreads not being cookies to useful players everything else I don't really have thoughts on and can't parse at this moment. Something about hito posts are just hard for me to digest.

Ohh look who wants to just hand out a tr to cooldog because of how he handled it. Like really? You want to argue the way cooldog handled his claim was townie? The guy would do same thing regardless, that's his personality. Yeah, this is scummy

Ohh Cool MOI wants to strawman my position as though my only thing was saying he wouldn't get lynched in LYLO, cool beans. That wasn't even justifying my read, that was me saying you should be lynched FIRST. You are playing directly to scum motivations with discrediting, bad pushes, and fake townreads. Do you need me to go on or would you like to now OMGUS scum read me to try save face? Cause lol that's where ur obviously trying to go

Enjoy this novel Tywin <3
Reading is a hardship, make it at least entertaining I say. Mafia is fun. How about making funny posts while you scum it up MOI?
Long post to say "Okay I see your point" Is there any reason you couldn't just say that?

Don't see the reason offhand for the vote here by insanity for KMD. I think the bussing question is really weird.

HEY OLD MAN IS ON MY BRAIN! Or in my brain. LOL PINE YOU GOT REPLACED
Old Man can be my spirit animal this game now. I am calling him town even though my only reason is "I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THIS MAN SAYS"
Eddie isn't egotistical. Like maybe sarcastic and upfront, but not egotistical lol.
That's for Eddie to tell me! I ain't giving away my tell if he can't figure it out.
This is a post. I think my brain decided to quit or I found this post so boring it wasn't worth commenting on. I agree with Insanity on Tywin wagon. So she is cool enough to be given 2 stars.
Friendo don't argue with PJ. Just keep doing your thing. Also answer my questions and tell me what you think it is I townread you for.
Hey Axel I haven't really talked to you. Hows life?
Hey you post too much. Also why don't I have more posts than you?
WHAT ARE YOU EMBARRASSED ABOUT
If you are trying to kiss up to me in order for me to townread you.....it might be working. I like you too kdm.

Okay I am going to literally skip posts not worth commenting on.
Please stop commenting on Eddie. And ur points about Pine active lurking are wrong and I don't even think he is really townie now.

Duh.....Come on Pine, you be scumming it up with stuff like this.

KILL ME. Cooldog can be temporary town so I don't have to go through all this. Just put down the gun dog

Okay I am making this a two part series.
NEXT UP!

Maybe three.
I spent so long making this. Din't even get everyone.

Where I stand now:

Town:

Eddie Cane, Old Man
PJ, Tammy
Cooldog
Everyone Else
Tywin
Pine, MOI
Scum
Show
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
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Post Post #410 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 12:24 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

In post 392, Old Man wrote:Hi. Not going to write an extended reply countering your arguments point by point, given the fact that I believe your stubbornness currently points towards you being town.*

It seems that you feel that the conclusions that I have obtained from my metadive on you are inaccurate? Please correct me then. Since I have already shown sufficient proof to back up my conclusions, this time the burden of proof shifts back to you to show me why my assessment is wrong.

Also, it is strange that you would be unsatisfied with the evidence I have provided, which is your two most recent games of both alignments. Are you saying that these most recent games are not representative of your current play, despite being the most recent (one game dates back to 2016)? Shouldn't your most recent games reflect all your improvements from your older games that are years older, and not the other way round?
I'll keep this to the point - again this isnt't debate class. Don't expect me to spend time defending my Town game (which I am more than adequately equipped to do ... Tammy at the minimum can absolutely vouch for this) to you because it is of no purpose. I don't particularly care what you think of my Town game. I do care to point out that your "meta dive" (again, 2 games is like the poster child for small sample size) doesn't look like an actual effort to determine how I play as both alignments but very much like you cherry picked games to support a position that I can safely be ignored regardless of my alignment (Scumgod who can never be trusted or Village Idiot who should be dismissed) which fits a scum agenda much more easily than a Town one. Again this is simply evidence I don't want swept under the rug as people basically ignore you due to your claim. I want as much evidence as possible in the case that you aren't revealed Town pretty much at the start of Day 2. And heck if you are actually an Innocent Child it gives me an insight into your ability as Town. Which I can't meta since conveniently you are a hidden alt. Which is another reason I find your obsession with meta off.
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Post Post #411 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 12:27 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Axel - I see your questions. Ran out of time this morning before work to address so you'll have to wait for tonight (probably, life is still chaotic).
"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"

Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.
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Post Post #412 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 12:34 am

Post by insanity018 »

Been super busy today, will be here tomorrow!
...
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Post Post #413 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 3:16 am

Post by Eddie Cane »

In post 408, petroleumjelly wrote:
In post 397, Eddie Cane wrote:
In post 390, petroleumjelly wrote:I have not gotten the impression that Pine has been trying to sort you at all. Rather, Pine's posts appear to be defending you from the get-go (including Post #52, which you cite). He has not questioned you at all (if anything, he has supplied explanations for you), or really engaged with you. The only 'interaction' I can even find is when he "passed" on discussing Firebringer with you (see Post #174).
Sorting doesn't mean asking a bunch of questions. He's sorting my alignment, internally. It followed off our last game and recent games are always more fresh in your subconscious.
Can you give a more in-depth explanation? Why and where have you gotten the impression that Pine has been trying to "sort" you this game?
You already listed posts...

-

Lol Hito I read some of 17 Kilos when diving Elli didn't remember you being in that game. I'll look through when I have more time.
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Post Post #414 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 3:41 am

Post by CooLDoG »

I felt like I could do it because this town is quite frankly super undirected.
I felt like I could do it. More like I felt that I could get away with it. Fuck.
vote: hitogoroshi


would be willing to switch back to pine on the drop of a vote.
after a wank.
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Post Post #415 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 8:27 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Quick phone post -

VOTE: Firebringer

He isn’t willing to vote any of his “suspects” and keeps his vote on Tammy who is near the top of his Town reads.

Insert meme “you can’t get called as scum for pushing mislynches if you never vote your mislynch targets” here ...
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Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.
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Post Post #416 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 12:58 pm

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

In post 398, Axelrod wrote:And what you are saying here seems to be something completely different. You seem to be changing your previous argument and saying (in effect) "well, even if it wasn't a relational tell, I still suspect Old Man because he is being hypocritcal and attacking Tywin for doing the same thing that he himself did."

Which looks just a bit hand-wavey of the fact that your original point seemed completely off base. Am I missing something here?
Well I don’t know why you aren’t following it but let me lay out the logic.

1. OldMan said he agreed with Hito’s relational case and then went on to say that even beyond the relational case he thought Tywin was scum independent.
2. I pointed out that he couldn’t like the relational case at all since he didn’t believe any of the reads (that one of Eddie / Pine had to be scum that Twyin was soft defending) and thus his like of that post made no sense.
3. Hito and you (I think, I don’t remember the second poster) said “That’s silly he said it was scummy even without the relational tells.”
4. I responded to show why that also made no sense from a Town perspective.

I stand by the fact that him gushing so much praise on Hito’s original post made no sense given his perspective. If you want to classify my clarifying why it does make sense otherwise is “hand-waving away the original point” that’s your choice.
In post 399, Axelrod wrote:I'm interested here in the read on Pine, as up to that point, at least, I didn't see where you had anything positive to say about him, and rather seemed to have been questioning him in a number of posts.
You probably would not find me saying “positive” things about most players who I had on that Town list. My questioning him was part of my early attempts to sort him. Do you think that’s unreasonable?
In post 399, Axelrod wrote:You haven't commented about Pine much at all recently, so, what's your current read on him?
Realistically there hasn’t been that much from Pine recently to comment on read / alignment wise. He’s been a little busy with Pinecone.

He’s still in my Town reads. I like several things he’s twigged to (his Firebringer read first comes to mind OTTOMH).

I probably need to revisit that list again. Hopefully tonight before bed.
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Post Post #417 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 1:01 pm

Post by Eddie Cane »

the one good thing about month long deadlines is you cant really vla and miss a day
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Post Post #418 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 1:03 pm

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Hey Eddie ... want to build a wagon on Firebringer with me? I'll be fun and productive ...

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Post Post #419 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 1:17 pm

Post by Eddie Cane »

meh
"Ima need to buy at least Josh a fucking tarot card reading because this dude is scary at picking up on scum before they even post what the fuck type of Ms. Cleo ass psychic ass mothafucka did yall allow to sign up for this site"
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Post Post #420 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 3:26 pm

Post by Pine »

I could be interested. My scum!Fire read is stale, but not dead. I’d need to ISO him.

I have a laptop in the hospital now, so productivity is a possibility.
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Post Post #421 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 3:27 pm

Post by Pine »

*Caveat: I am exhausted trying to help Lady Pine through feeding a baby that won’t latch. The first time she did, and twice briefly today, but it’s concerning.

I’ll ISO Fire sometime tomorrow. Maybe.
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Post Post #422 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 5:02 pm

Post by Tammy »

I'm just going to give my thoughts on pages four and five before I forget what I read. I've had a hell of a day and my mind feels very scrambled, so if I don't make sense I apologize. Just let me know and I'll reword my thoughts. I only have 75 final exams left to grade before I'm freeeee...until Monday when summer school starts. But once I get grades submitted and the summer classes set up, my schedule gets much more manageable, and I should be able to get on top of things and stay there better.

First things first though.
Congratulations Pine!!!
I'm glad that Lady Pine and Pinecone are healthy and well. :)

Yeah, I remember why I forgot reading page four in the first place, most of it was just bickering and things I don't agree with. Mostly things like how a pgo should be handled and what constitutes a newbie or what questions are valuable in the first place and some other theory crap. I have poked around enough to know that Old Man claimed day two IC and so I just kind of want to be lazy and not think about his posts because he's going to be resolved day two anyway. That and his posts are kinda condescending, which I don't always terribly mind when it comes in the case of someone whose mindset I can understand I can work with. Which well yeah that remains to be seen, but as of page four I have the bird's eye view of just knowing he's wrong and right or wrong that colors my view of how much I can trust the way they're looking at the game.
In post 98, Old Man wrote:To clarify my stance on Pine: I
want
Pine to be town here, but all my professional mafia policies force me to keep Pine as a nullread for now.
Really liked this post because it's one I can sympathize with.

Absolutely detest Tywin's . I don't have much experience with Tywin; we played one game together where I largely lurked out most of day one and was a long time ago, but I remember thinking he was nothing like his namesake because he was so jumpy :lol: That doesn't have a whole lot to do with this game; I can't quite meta him and that's old meta but it is my backdrop. Anyway, he spends most of that post bitching about the Eddie RVS wagon. I do not understand why that RVS wagon would cause him so much angst, he had to be so rawr about it. It was day one of a large when almost all wagons are started for shit reasons, and this one was okay reason wise, and are just to get something started. The game has to start somewhere. But he's acting like the entire game decided to go HARD on eddie and were trying to quicklynch him when that's not what happened. Nobody went hard like he claimed. Chamber didn't claim to have the game solved, so eh. Axelrod started the Pine wagon; I don't see where he sheeped? I don't understand the reasons for the petroleum vote - shading a potential pr because he said he didn't believe the claim? So bleh, but if I'm remembering our past experience correctly I didn't much like many of Tywin's stances or arguments but I townread him because he was so jumpy and reactionary. Probably more reactionary than I used to be or and sometimes still am because I fail at being better a lot :/

Anyway that's a lot to say I just don't like the post, but when I meta'd Tywin before maybe replacing his slot I think I picked up something he's more likely to do as town than scum, so I'll have to come back to this.

I don't agree with Axel's town read on Insanity at this point for the reasoning, but I like the way Axel is going about it getting it. I can buy that he would have that read for the reasoning that he has. I don't agree with PJ that Axel's was him trying to save eddie and then making an about face earlier. If anything that post is one that I liked from Axel early because it felt lighthearted. And I disagree with Kison that his vote looked like over-justification; think that's just how Axel plays.

I do not think that Korts posting the mod clarification on the anti-toxic stuff means that it's plausible Pine really did ask that question at the start of the game. I don't think for a second that Korts would do that sort of mod-interference to support a question that may or may not have been asked in private at the start of the game. That would be awful. My first thought was that Pine asked him to make some sort of post like that that would make it seem plausible because he felt outed that Korts started the game when Pine confirmed in the scum qt, and he did it to make up for the fact that he might have inadvertently outed them that way. That would also be wrong on the mod's part probably. But, I actually like Axel's thought on the reasoning for the post because it makes the most sense and is something I didn't even think of.

Insanity - What did you like about Tywin's ?

OH I don't think it's weird that Axel pointed out that Eddie was at L-2. At his site L-2 is when people claim, and I don't think it's weird to not want to put someone at L-1 anyway? Oh and I also liked Axel's point on Eddie and what he may have been joking about. It feels like he's really thinking about why people might be doing things.

If I felt comfortable giving early town reads these days, I'd call Axel one. He's heading in that direction at least.

Still like Hito's "grubby hands" comment. Still know it's thin, still know I'm projecting a bit.

Like Magma's (can I call you magma?) posting so far. No red flags yet anyway. I believe that how I used to be able to tell when he was more likely town still holds, so I'm hoping that's still true and I'll see it soon. (I don't think this is negated by not having a huge issue on him in the Thing where he was scum. I had red flags I didn't push like I should have, but I seem to remember saying that thing that appears to make it clear he was town wasn't there. So I have high hopes I have high hopes I can get an accurate read there.)

Pine still feels a bit posturey, again wondering if it's a play style issue and chamber didn't have an issue with him so it might be a me issue? This will be something I'll have to flesh out besides that feeling.

Tywin is my biggest concern as of now.

I'll try to get more read tonight, but I get up super early and it's well past my bed time, so no promises you'll hear from me again until later.
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Post Post #423 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 5:19 pm

Post by Tammy »

In post 129, chamber wrote:Can you provide an example of where you've played like you have this game, but were town?
In post 130, Pine wrote:I despise demands like that. The burden of proof for meta demands is on the accuser.
Why didn't you have this response to Magna here?
In post 80, MagnaofIllusion wrote: Also regarding – can you link me to some other Town games where you give strong Town reads very early for what I would say is a NAI posting? Because there is nothing in that post that can’t be faked easily as scum.
In post 81, Pine wrote:I don't agree it's NAI. We can talk about it, but I'm not dumping an hour trolling through old games to prove a minor point. Your implied question is "Do you do this elsewhere?" Answer: Not often, but yes. Like kmd said, it's a mindset thing. There are better ways to play a PGO claim. I don't necessarily think claiming Doc is the right route, as that might provoke a counterclaim and backfire, but dropping heavy breadcrumbs and softing recklessly would do the trick. I don't think scum gets that crotchety about it, I think they have a debate in their PT about how to handle the claim.

*shrug* I think this s just a matter of us disagreeing on some points, MoI.
Why biting in response to Chamber asking
someone else
by the way but pretty tame and mollifying when Magna asks you for a similar thing?
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Post Post #424 (ISO) » Thu May 10, 2018 5:28 pm

Post by Pine »

Four big differences. First, MoI's request was for a specific piece of meta, chamber's was for a much broader topic, thus harder to actually answer satisfactorily. Second, I tend to be more sensitive to fair play issues from the outside. I play hard, and I expect to be challenged. When it's happening to others, I'm more likely to call them on something I'd tolerate myself. Third, chamber was being a dick, making unreasonable demands, while MoI was being a lot more professional.

Fourth and perhaps most important, I didn't actually honor MoI's request. I provided summary meta, but declined to dig through my past games to find the one piece of proof.

I think all of that would show consistency, rather than the reverse.
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