Newbie 1876 - Game Over!

[nonny]

Good morning everyone.

VOTE: vote: 2 718281828459

I don’t trust that many numbers.

[nonny]

VOTE: nonny for voting for me.

Revenge voting already

e

? Can I call you

e

it's easier than typing all those numbers.

Sorry to hear that formerfish, I hope she bounces back and feels better soon.

[nonny]

Trinity you can use vote tags [ v ] vote username [/ v ] (without the spaces in the brackets) Little harder to type on a mobile device but possible. Yay for it being your first game, just read the rules and have fun!

[nonny]

Trinity you can use vote tags [ v ] vote username [/ v ] (without the spaces in the brackets) Little harder to type on a mobile device but possible. Yay for it being your first game, just read the rules and have fun!

You mean like this?
VOTE: vote GuerillaWoo

Yes, though apparently we don't need the word "vote:" This feature is new to me, last time I played we only did

vote

in order to vote.

[nonny]

Town it up in this one like you did there and you'll do well. Or just sheep me and ride my coattails to victory.

This seems a very odd statement. At this stage why would you suggest this unless you already know someone's alignment. Please elaborate. The statement is almost suspicious enough to change my vote but that would put you at L-2 and not sure I want to go there yet.

[nonny]

You do what you feel you have to with your vote, for some of us all we have is that and our words, right? Think about this though, do you really believe that I am going to scum slip on page 1 day 1 of a newbie game? Do you think that if Iceman was my partner as scum that I would be talking to him like this instead of in our scum pt?

Stop tilting at windmills and let the game progress a bit before making baseless statements like that.

Not exploring avenues just because it's early is an easy way to stall a game. I don't know you enough to know what you may do as scum or town day 1. You could be confidant because you are in a newbie game. You could just talk to talk and not edit for content. It's hard to say. But unless we talk there's no way to figure anything out.

[nonny]

Except trinity asked about the same post in #25 and I addressed it already in #26.

And asking a question is different than threatening me with a serious vote on page 2, putting me to l-2 when the first 2 votes were rvs.

This was more just replying before seeing that we were on page two, thus not seeing Trinity's question nor your reply. Again I'm rusty and getting back into things, including board format. Secondly was explaining/thinking out loud about not throwing a vote around. I don't want random votes and something mildly odd/suspicious to lead to an easy lynch for scum.

To me it looks like you saw that I had the biggest wagon on me, and if you could push an action as scummy to hop on the wagon you might be able to get some traction with it and get an early mislynch.

If I wanted it to be a wagon then I would have voted. Instead I noted the number of votes already there and choose to not ramp up a wagon. How is it pushing a wagon by pointing out the wagon and pointing out avoiding it. This would be very backwards thinking.

And dont misrep what I was saying, i have no issue with questions. I have an issue with someone taking an obviously tongue in cheek comment and trying to make it into something its not. Build your straw man somehwere else.

I simply said it was odd and warranted more explanation. Obviously I wasn't the only one that thought this either, or else Trinity wouldn't have asked. I do, however, agree it's something that doesn't need further exploring, no need to beat a dead horse.

[nonny]

I'm fine with putting a wagon to L-2 this early.

VOTE: nonny

Early read, this is sus.

Sus, why?

I voted nonny for a reason too, but it was more just tonal. Anything in particular?

I never trust people who very early on throw shade at someone and then claim they don't want to vote them because of the vote count. It looks like a way for scum to test the waters and see if a wagon will stick without actually joining the wagon.

I don't trust that sort of play.

I've already clearly stated that I found it odd but not odd enough to vote. I see how my statement came across as threatening, which it was not intended that way, talking about the vote was more thinking out loud which I should have just kept to myself, apparently.

I still want to keep my vote on nonny. This could be a mislynch, but we can afford 2 mislynches, so...

Would you like to defend yourself or claim a power role?

I don't see why you would want to risk a mislynch day 1, or atleast this early when we still have over 10days until the deadline and not even all the players are active. Closing the day early would not benefit us as town. Also, same reason why claiming power role this early and day one is silly. There is no guaranteed protection and all that would do is get me killed by scum at night, meaning either way I don't make it to day 2. Not a benefit to the town.

Lynching occurs when a player is hammered with the needed amount of votes.

This is 5 on day one.

If you hammer, it CANNOT BE UNDONE. Normally intent is given as well before the last vote is cast, as to give everyone a proper chance to check in and say what they want to say. It also gives the player getting lynch a chance to beg for mercy and claim. Quickhammering is usually considered anti-town, especially without a claim from the person getting lynched.

That said, please don't claim unless it is necessary! Hidden information is valuable to town and good to keep away from scum.
And 99.999999% of the time,

DO NOT FAKECLAIM AS TOWN

, even when you're about to get lynched. You can do this all you want as scum, it might even be beneficial. But lying about your role as town when you're about to get lynched is bad. You may think at the time it's good to save yourself, but you might draw out a

counter-claim

from the real powerrole and that is not good for scum to know.

Having fun and keeping a good mentality are also important. If you're getting pushed and voted as town or scum, don't fret! It can be stressful no matter you alignment. This is your chance to prove yourself and keeping a level head will benefit you no matter which side you're playing for. Just remember to stay active (physically, as well!) and check in on the game at least once a day. Activity keeps the game fun and also keeps information coming in, which is good for town. Lurking as either alignment is very bad for your win-condition.

Some alignment specific advice:

Spoiler:

As town - Don't worry if you're wrong and don't be scared to push some things! Your gut is a powerful tool and if you notice something out of place, drop a vote down and explain why. The most common way newbies are fooled is because they tend to townread people who are active and making longer posts. SCUM CAN DO THIS! High activity and giving reads is NOT A TOWN TELL. Many games are lost to hyperactive scum who seem pro-town. Town can lurk and scum can lead, it's all part of the game and trying to figure out who is really who is town's main job.

As scum - Think as if you're town. What would you say right now? Constantly being involved in the game is key to winning. If you lurk, you're going to get called out. If you don't give reads, you're going to get called out. Make sure to actually gain a grasp of the game. Be proactive. Try to pretend you know nothing and scumhunt from that point of view. Remember, you know more than the town does because you know everyone's alignment! Don't play as if this is the case.

Maybe you didn't read his post, but I did. Claiming my role would be a last resort.

Guys, this bit of advice I'm gonna give is super important: BE HONEST ABOUT MAKING MISTAKES. Don't rationalize around them. Don't justify them. Look at your behavior honestly and critically, especially in how it'll appear to both town and scum. It's more important that you let town players know this than it is to win an argument.

I have half a mind to vote nonny cuz of those two posts up there.

I did admit my mistake on not seeing we were on page two, which honestly may have avoided all of this. I did not think I was arguing however, was I coming off as argumentative in my previous posts? Tone is so hard on text based forum, I felt I was explaining my thinking and actions.

[nonny]

Maybe you didn't read his post, but I did. Claiming my role would be a last resort.

I just find it kind of ironic that in my next post I clarify that I'm female and yet you got it wrong. It doesn't bug me, but it speaks to you actually reading my posts or not...

You're right, my bad Bins. I'm notoriously bad at gender, usually try to avoid it. Going back through from the reply page doesn't show avatars or gender

Nonny I'm tone reading you as guarded and defensive.

I could see that. Not sure how to change it, but thank you for answering my question. I'm probably taking everything too seriously, I'll try to lighten up. Downside to be a perfectionist

[nonny]

Nonny I'm tone reading you as guarded and defensive.

I could see that. Not sure how to change it, but thank you for answering my question. I'm probably taking everything too seriously, I'll try to lighten up. Downside to be a perfectionist

In what way are you a perfectionist nonny?

Just personality quirk, I put pressure on myself to do everything "correctly" even when there is no quantifiably correct action.

Welcome skygazer, good to have a fresh set of eyes, interested to see what you think.

I agree with Bins feeling town lead, but as stated IC does have advantage of being seen as a mentor.

I wish that there was a designated person who had an IC-like role but was not playing, therefore you could ask questions that might reveal your role ("So I found 2 townies as Cop, should I reveal now or later?" or "Should I, as scum, pretend to be a Tracker to try and win this LyLo?") without compromising the game.

Could be an interesting theme, like a omnipotent NPC. But scum already has an advantage. I'm curious when it changed from being able to talk only at night to them being allowed to talk all the time, I tried to look into this after reading the rules over day 1. I'm guessing it was changed because it's hard to enforce something like that.

[nonny]

Ok I'm actually back to scumreading nonny. Being self-deprecating as a gameplay defense never goes over well for me. Always reads like dodging.

It's VOTE: nonny for me

Starting to think you just read any thing I say in a negative light, even with the added emoticons.

[nonny]

I'm hesitant to even respond to the multiple people saying I was "self deprecating", what I said about being a perfectionist was not meant to be self deprecating. I asked a question, received an answer, and responded to the answer. I did not phrase it as "woah is me, poor me", merely stated a fact and noted I'd try to lighten up since I'm just a serious person. This is the last I want to post about my personality, if you see it as scumread so be it, I feel like I've explained where I was coming from enough, either you see it as genuine or you don't.

What I wrote...

(within reason, but I doubt two scum would instantly jump on this wagon unless they were suicidal) causes you to lose the townread?

OK, so brass says this is a slip...

1. I was being hypothetical there; I did not "know" whether brass was town or not.
2. If brass
   were
   scum, then it would still be suicidal because the scum team would have just lynched their own for no apparent reason.
3. But really, I was mostly trying to figure out why I was getting heat for voting for brass, and I explained why I thought it was safe to give the L-2 vote, just in case the mere fact that it was L-2 was the reason for the heat. I was trying to write 120 as a question to the IC.
4. @Brassherald: Are you actually scum reading me, or are you just trying to pressure me by putting me at L-1? (Genuine question.)

e

2.7, you see the logic error in point 2, right? If Brass is scum then how can scum lynch him if he's at L-2? There are only 2 scum in a newbie set up, correct?

Nonny what do you think of 2.7?

I'm leaning scumread on 2.7, he is all over the place with multiple logic flaws. Not sure if it's just newbie errors or misdirection. Either way think either he is scum or scum is playing it cautious this game, since he's been at L-1 for over a day with no hammer.

Ok I'm actually back to scumreading nonny. Being self-deprecating as a gameplay defense never goes over well for me. Always reads like dodging.

It's VOTE: nonny for me

Starting to think you just read any thing I say in a negative light, even with the added emoticons.

I read everything in a negative light. Once you get duped in this game you realize people will actually go to extents to fuck with you.

This explanation I have nothing against, feels legit and I respect knowing how you read things yourself. The part that I don't get is why Trinity is sheeping, almost every post from her is just following another player, like in post 122 (how do we link to posts?), with time can find more examples as well.

[quote="In post 139, "2 718281828459"]
"Do you want brass lynched" well, I mean, if I were forced, right now, to lynch any player then it would be brass, because of the somewhat... what's the word... hasty response to my vote. I think I had a few other things on brass as well, although I would need to study the past posts more closely if you want me to write them out.[/quote]

To everyone else, it's always good to be using your vote. Pressuring people with a vote may be the only way you can get a proper read on them.
VOTE: brassherald

Is there a reason why adding more pressure to the player

you

voted for (within reason, but I doubt two scum would instantly jump on this wagon unless they were suicidal) causes you to lose the townread?

Please, write them out. Because so far the only thing you are going on is his response to something you said, seeing as your original vote was simple bandwagoning.

[nonny]

I still want to keep my vote on nonny. This could be a mislynch, but we can afford 2 mislynches, so...

Would you like to defend yourself or claim a power role?

We've talked about this, but this is a logic flaw. So far most of your posts about game mechanics or "protocol" have has logical misrepresentations.

Also post 57 and 92 seems odd. As someone who has been obsessed with the vote count, you even made your own "unofficial" vote count before voting. Why did you unvote twice in a row without placing a vote? Could be a way to look active while waiting to make a decision, not sure how to read it.

I do not see that as a logic error. It was not as serious of a defense as the others, but the point was that people are

allowed

to vote for themselves, even if it is completely stupid to do so.

(I still contend that if 3 townies vote for someone, it is just as stupid for both scum to vote for the target whether the target is scum, requiring a self-vote, or the target being town, which is an instant giveaway no matter what.)

But you can disregard this one if you would rather.
My real defense was: "I was mostly trying to figure out why I was getting heat for voting for brass, and I explained why I thought it was safe to give the L-2 vote, just in case the mere fact that it was L-2 was the reason for the heat. I was trying to write 120 as a question to the IC."

You make it sound like it's not the L-2 reason, what other reason are you thinking of? The defense of scum self voting is odd, scum typically go for self preservation, so why would you make an excuse based on scum acting any way other then the typical? Yes, some have played scum stupidly but I don't think it'd be a typical scum play, atleast not day one newbie.

Agree with skygazer post 160. Would like the see answers to those questions as well. (see you have responded but not going to remove this from my post)

More investigation. I guess my method ignores some parts of the context of a post, but I can always investigate further if I am not sure on something.

brassherald

-- OK, so the other thing I had against brass was that he went back to nonny at post 60, which I think is a little late and after nonny's main defenses. I understand this is flimsy evidence, but it was all I could find besides my Main Evidence.

Trinity

-- I do not like 67, 122, and 133. However she is new and I probably made worse errors in my first game (1872). So... not sure here, but maybe a slight town lean.

Formerfish

-- The only scummy thing I can possibly think of is that two days passed between 84 and 132, but other than that Formerfish is really pro-town: seeking information and acting in a logical manner to events.

As you said that is weak at best against brassherald. You stated you had more of a list, and came back with one weak point against. Was there more, or are you scrambling for reasons why you bandwagoned?

Here I go.

I am a Power Role.

At the very beginning, I got way too excited for being dealt a power role. This excitement, combined with trying not to accidentally reveal myself, led to some bad posts. Then it was all survival instinct -- it is one thing to lynch a townie, but to lynch one of only 2 (or maybe even only 1) power roles? So I acted too defensive, due to being desperate to survive without having to reveal myself.

Not sure how I feel about the role claim. To me role claiming day one is just asking to be killed night 1. You didn't really try to build a defense prior to a role claim. Wouldn't you want to build a defense prior to claiming, claiming does not really help town at this stage. SE or IC if my logic is wrong here please explain.

UNVOTE: 2.7 I want to see others' response to 2.7 post before someone can hammer.

[nonny]

Okay, so town doctor, why then did you say that there could be 1 PR?

VOTE: nonny

Because I am not lynching an un-CCed PR claim, no matter how bad it is. I still don't trust numbers.

That does seem odd, in the setups on the first page there is no set up where the town doc is the only PR.

2.7 why would you be vague when you're trying to reveal you are important? Why did you want the follow up to claim fully? Please stop using "protocols" as a reason, it's easy to hide behind unwritten "rules".

[nonny]

Also, I thought we were supposed to not lynch PR claims unless someone counter claims.

Is that why you claimed?

[nonny]

Skygazer: I made a post before about 2.7's 98, it does seem an odd statement, especially seeing that scum does have someone to talk to and possible guide them.

Currently I'm still scum lean on 2.7 as well. Hypothetically if someone CC doc, we lynch 2.7, and the CC doc is alive tomorrow then day 2 is wasted on WIFOM? Maybe it's not a good play, but isn't that a possible scenario were scum could buss (am i using that right?) their partner in an effort to make it to lylo? Seeing as there is no guarantee that we even have a doc in set-up.

I'm hesitant to even respond to the multiple people saying I was "self deprecating", what I said about being a perfectionist was not meant to be self deprecating. I asked a question, received an answer, and responded to the answer. I did not phrase it as "woah is me, poor me", merely stated a fact and noted I'd try to lighten up since I'm just a serious person. This is the last I want to post about my personality, if you see it as scumread so be it, I feel like I've explained where I was coming from enough, either you see it as genuine or you don't.

The definition of self-deprecating to me is that it isn’t about “woe is me, poor me”, but is about putting yourself down to appear humble and therefore a nice person. And so then I ask, why do you need to make us think you’re a nice person?

I never said it was a negative, that is your own connotation. Do with it what you will.

This explanation I have nothing against, feels legit and I respect knowing how you read things yourself. The part that I don't get is why Trinity is sheeping, almost every post from her is just following another player, like in post 122 (how do we link to posts?), with time can find more examples as well.

Yes, you’re right I’ve probably mostly replied to previous posts as I’m still having probelms figuring out how to reply to earlier posts and do quoting properly. So it’s easier just to reply to something and follow on from what was previously said. Also, I’ve been trying to be active, but haven’t always been sure what to say, so again it’s easier just to follow on from an existing topic. I’m sure I’ll get better as the game goes on. I’ve changed my view now to descending rather than ascending, so that will probably help too.

So then, what is your current take on the 2.7 discussion going on? Seeing as that's our main concern currently, it'd be good for every player to weigh in.

[nonny]

VOTE: 2.7 This seems like the best place for vote to be right now, nothing has convinced me the claim was legit, especially the appeal to "protocol." We also, have now stalled it seems.

[nonny]

Skygazer: I made a post before about 2.7's 98, it does seem an odd statement, especially seeing that scum does have someone to talk to and possible guide them.

If 2.7 had another scum player to talk to then why would he make a post about wishing he had another more informed player to talk to about advice? I'm kind of thinking 98 is more indicative of town at this point.

By itself, yes it can be seen that way. Initial impression was more just talking to talk and therefore neutral, at least that's how I read it.

[nonny]

I thought I did post something but I guess the post did not take.
Most of the posts you guys wrote were

about

me and not

to

me, although I may have missed stuff.
My reads have not really changed anyway, I still think nonny is town (or at least not scum enough for all those votes) and brass is scum.

Point one is an easy thing to say, no way to say if it's true or not. But given you were posting prolifically prior and then fell off the face of the earth, it's easy to doubt.

Point two, this is were I already pointed out to you, you have not attempted to build a defense. You know you're own alignment. If what we are saying is not true, if someone is twisting something, etc then it's your job to point it out and point out how you were actually acting in best interest of the town. You have to present a case.

You have been building a defense for me because it validates your vote on Brass. Currently, brass nor I are under that much fire. You are the one that is read scum by the majority of active players and at risk of lynch. Put some of that energy towards your own standing. Saying you're innocent because you suspect Brass is not a defense, it's a distraction which is not working. And while I agree with your take on me simply because I know my own alignment, it actually at this point adds to my scumlean on you, why are you defending me so much? It's almost unnerving, the only way you could know I'm town that fully is if you are not. Otherwise it also looks like buddying which your partner may have told you to buddy someone in order to use it on D2 for easy lynch bait, but that is WIFOM at this point.

If 2.7 had another scum player to talk to then why would he make a post about wishing he had another more informed player to ta. By itself, yes it can be seen that way. Initial impression was more just talking to talk and therefore neutral, at least that's how I read it.

You said that's your initial impression but I'm assuming you don't see it in a different light after 2.7's doc claim?

Correct, I do not, because the doc claim it self is suspect. This original post could either be the talking out loud, breadcrumbing for a PR claim, or newb scum with an inactive partner. Hard to say which, but I lean towards it being null.

I too would like to hear from Bins, she's been nearly the least active. And Trinity has still not fully weighed in on the 2.7 PR claim, unless I missed it.

And to reiterate what Woo said before, if you choose to hammer do not hammer without explanation.

[nonny]

I think that the only reasons that ANYONE is voting for nonny is (1) the "self-deprecation" thing or (2) the voter is scum. And (1) has been debunked.
So, I am using the nonny situation to look for scum.

You can see in my vote that that's not the only reason I'm voting for nonny, but I don't even see how that point has been debunked anyways. As for why I'm still voting her, her unvote on you seemed sort of like a grab for towncred.

I really don't like the inactivity coming from Ice and bins, it's making it really hard to get reads.

Skygazer, if my unvote feels like a grab for "towncred" would you be having the same doubts on me if I had not unvoted and left a PR claim at L-1?

Ice just posted today, not sure you can lump Ice and Bins in the same place in terms of inactivity.

I’m leaning towards E2.7 and nonny being both scum. He is being unnecessarily defensive of her and she is looking like she is telling him what to do, like build a defence, and giving possible explanations for some of his posts.

Scum have their own private thread.

This.

Trinity, I had just one post prior pointed out the buddying. Trying to find a scum team is much harder than finding which players you find scummy. So, which players do you find scummy? If you do feel 2.7 is scum (as you said in quote above) then do you think he should be the lynch for day 1? You still have not answered what you think of the role claim.

[nonny]

You do realise this is my first game? I thought that’s what I was meant to be commenting on.

Trinity, this is still a non-answer. It's okay to be new, it's best to contribute.

Woo: I understand the cold feet, I've been reading "iso"s to see what else stands out.

Interested to see replies to fish's posts, no immediate disagreement with anything said from me.

Can we flesh out the lack of hammer. I haven't played in a while but it still strikes me as odd, I'm used to scum quick hammer and apologize later. Is it more likely scum is playing it safe? Scum is inactive/inexperienced? Scum doesn't want to hammer partner? Scum still holding out for a CC?

Am I missing any reasons? The lack of hammer shows 2.7 more being scum then town from what I see. Not sure the scum would hesitate as much on a town hammer.

[nonny]

VOTE: unvote I'm interested to see what else develops from the new activity. I like skygazer's questions toward Trinity.

[nonny]

I’m not sure what else I need to do to follow up?

You asked a lot of questions. Have the people who you were asking replied to all of them? If you want me to I can do an ISO on you and quote all the places you asked questions.

Also, have you answered all the questions directed at you? I know at first you said you were posting from a phone, it may be easier if you can use a computer to do a more full post, at least once in a while.

We might be better off killing 2.8 today no matter what.

I know. I know. That sounds kinda crazy, right? My question to you all is this, is it?

Say he is town. I as scum would not kill him tonight. I would leave him alive because tomorrow when he's not dead it's almost a free mislynch right there for them. Also, I would probably no kill for the simple fact that as the towndoc he could pick one of the scum team to protect, which would in effect clear that scum player when town2.8 is killed and flips green.

Now from the flip side. If 2.8 is scum I would probably no kill as well. It would ratchet up the wifom to unbelievable levels on not only himself but also on whoever he "protected."

It does make sense. I had a similar thought that currently we don't have any "real" information. We won't really until we have a lynch. All of our reads currently are based on nothing but knowing our own alignment. (I know this is just day 1 mechanic) Once we do have one (or two depending on NK and PRs in game) confirmed alignments then scumhunting can become more solid.

That being said, I personally still want to hear more from Trinity and Bins. More information now can help with look backs later, right?

This is more random thought but is there any benefit from a "no lynch", I'm guessing no, because that still leaves us in WIFOM tomorrow if 2.7 isn't the NK.

[nonny]

I've been reading E as completely freaked out at this game and it's protocols. Not sure if fakeclaiming is really something I see happening from him as scum, but maybe he was misreading how screwed he was. Like when he asked the other player in this game to claim.

It still stands out to me, that he said "I thought we don't lynch non CC PR" (paraphrased). That is significant regardless. But leans towards nervous scum that panicked and thought they found a "get out of jail free" card. He obviously was feel pressured, or he wouldn't have claimed, the claim was rushed as well. The messiness of it lends to inexperienced player with no guidance, a townie may have said "hey guys, do you want me to claim?" whereas a scum would have asked his partner. Maybe reading too far into it, but my guess is the latter and the partner was absent long enough to make 2.7 nervous and jump the gun.

I think brassherald is still my strongest scumread. I have pretty much every other slot at varying levels of town, which I'll try and get into.

Why? Your original vote did not have that much to go on, and you have not elaborated since.

I’m hesitant to straight up say my townreads if we’re about to lose our doctor.

What does this mean? How does a lack of doctor effect townreads? For all we know currently there isn't even a doctor in play. Is the assumption doc 2.7 would be protecting you tonight? What could you have to share that is that valuable/harmful?

Has anyone ever heard of a tactic before where a scum will say they’ve been away for a few days and asking everyone to hold off on lynching someone. And then it turns out they were partners? Could Bins’ absence have been meant to just give time for things to cool down against 2.7, if they are partners?

Scum are notorious for lurking, and jumping in when something may actually happen that causes them issue. So, I wouldn't say it's unheard of

I don't think lynching Bins today is the best idea for the record, for reasons I don't want to talk about yet.

/curious

The only complaint I have about lynching Bins is that I kind of do not to lynch the IC on day 1. I am sure that if we think she is scum we can kill her off before LyLo, but if she is town then we would be killing a valuable "soft" asset (soft, as opposed to a "hard" asset like a PR). The IC, if town, can be the key to the town's success, especially in LyLo's.

In fact, in my first game, we lynched the IC on day 1, and lost. Yes, correlation does not imply causation and there were plenty of other factors, but still.

Brass, why did you say

It can even be about any of your reads of the 7 other players you

need to read

in this game.

Would you not have seen Bins' post 7 minutes before? (Or did you not see that there was a 14th page?)

Lynching Bins has only been casually discussed at this point, so this feels premature. Secondly, having a scum IC can be just as harmful as having a town IC is helpful. Really it is just perspective, alignment, etc. So far this game Bins hasn't contributed a lot IC wise other than the initial intro which leaned towards being promising IC play.

Brass is correct, Bins could discuss those reads more. All she did was list the active players (minus one) and give her alignment reads. There was no reasoning, no "evidence", etc. It's a soft read if anything, and I agree with Brass saying she could expand if she's keen too. Especially since she breadcrumbed having more on Brass but not wanting to reveal it unless Brass himself was worried.

It's been well over the 24hours that Bins requested and the contribution as everyone has said was sparse at best. Still agree we have nothing concrete until we have a lynch and that 2.7 is the best lynch right now. I would like to see more from Bins but it feels like pulling teeth at this point. I'm leaning scum on Bins or Trinity, the latter could just be clouded by newbness, obviously depends on how 2.7 flips. Do we think 5 more days is going to reveal a whole lot more, or is it just posturing?

VOTE: 2.7 So when we do agree on hammer it'll be easy to do.

[nonny]

Hi all, been in Paris. I’ll post tomorrow when I’m back at work!

Haven’t read the last two pages. But there’s no reason to rush anything just yet.

In the future please let us know if you are going to be away like this. It takes only a few seconds to do a simple "V/LA a few days due to (reason)" post. -Mod

It's been over 24 hrs, just saying. *shrug*

[nonny]

You're counting from the wrong post nonny :p June 25th at 10 pm UTC, still like 14 hours

Maybe, post where she was upset about the 24hrs was past tense, so went to v/la post. Not in a rush.

[nonny]

If E was actually a Doctor and healed someone then it would give us a confirmed town. I knew it was a long shot since he'd have to pick the right target.

I already asked you about this, where is this coming from? I know it doesn't matter as much with E flipping scum but dude, seriously? A Doc is really hard to confirm. In this set up the Doc can also be paired with a jailkeeper for example, which could block a kill/save someone. Having one no kill does not confirm doc. It helps open up the possibility but it doesn't confirm by any means. Also, say Jailkeeper blocks scum, then Doc could have picked scum partner for all you know. Or Jailkeeper protected someone, again Doc may have picked anyone at all. In the reverse, a jailkeeper wouldn't be able to confirm town/scum based on one no kill either.

I will weigh in on the Trinity/Bins/Ice thing soon. I'm still leaning trinity and want more posts from her. Would like more from Bins too, but yeah....I'll hold me breath.

I'm going to look at Iso's and then post more. Curious if Fish was on to someone and that's why he got killed.

[nonny]

In this setup the jailkeeper only blocks the nightkill if there's one scum left ftr

Really? Interesting. Back in the day town role blocking mafia was based on which scum submitted the NK, so like if townRB targets scum 1 but scum 2 gives mod the kill then nothing happens, whereas if scum1 sends pm to mod then there is no NK. Assumed that'd be same, weird how little things change.

[nonny]

How does 433 read to 434? Like 433 says Trinity looks scum, which in 432 Bins just said she didn't look. Nothing in the quote in 433 says Ice looks scum.....

Which policy Woo?

[nonny]

Why do you like policy lynches so much? Not the first time you've suggested one.

I'm working on a reread/long post(hoping to be done within the hour). Please don't keep throwing votes around at this point. Bins is acting suspect as hell but I don't think she's our scum.

Mod can we have current vote count?

[nonny]

Turned into a re-read...long post ahead.

I want to wait and see how the replacement acts before doing anything else here, unless something major happens among the other 8 of us.

I want to wait and see how the replacement acts before doing anything else here, unless something major happens among the other 8 of us.

This is weird too. Kitty site flaked before even posting, why would you want to wait around to see how they act before doing anything? Like what about that slot was special enough to announce to the thread that you weren’t going to do anything? And then you come out of retirement a whole 2 posts later after Iceman asked you a question.

With E's flip this does look odd, why wait for the replacement? Though after finishing re-read sky still looks town to me.

post 121 Again, this stands out as well. Brass points out E saying "2 scum" are not likely to jump on this wagon.

Just claim your role, then.

Like, this is the most half assed role claim I've seen in a while and the only reason I can think of for someone to say "I'm a PR" and nothing else is that they are trying to avoid a Counterclaim because they are scum.

I'm not buying a non-specific "PR" claim.

post 226
First quote looks like bussing, second link coaching. Would Brass openly coach scumE? Doubtful, maybe to create deniable plausibility, but doubtful.

I'm not sure I see scum bussing this hard. Along with the reverse of 2.8 trying to get Brass lynched. Seems like a very big gambit, almost too big for newbie game, but still feels off.

Skygazer what's your take on the post discussed in post 215 in hindsight?

post 236 Is it weird to say I agree with myself? I still agree with the end of this post. I feel E's partner was either inactive or newb as well. Leaning towards Trinity being scum partner as of right now.

Trinity two different times stated "I type'd something long and then lost it" Weird to use that excuse twice. (Second time was in 271 for reference)
Post 273 Sky pointing this out makes me wonder. Was 2.7 buddying me so that Trinity could "hunt" me? Does seem suspect.

post 277 with post 271 Still looks odd. Did 2.8 tell you to just go ahead and vote for him?

I don't think lynching Bins today is the best idea for the record, for reasons I don't want to talk about yet.

I think it's time to talk about it....

[nonny]

Broke into two, sorry for walls of text.

The Brass/Bins interaction just comes off as Bins bullying Brass, was going to post on this in twilight but we didn't have one :'( but one post stands out, post 374. I just personally hate meta, especially using your own meta when stating "this is my meta", if you know your meta, then you know how to fake your meta. /steps off soap box

Ice's post 376 is odd as hell.

I can't even express to you guys how many fist pumps there were after that flip. Vindication feels so damn good. Good on Skygazer for cutting through the hand wringing (mine included).

^This

I jumped off of the wagon because I've played with 2.7 in the last game and he was all over the place. It started to seem to me like he might just be a super newb blundering around. I decided it was worth giving a claimed doc a chance to prove themselves. I was wrong. I also started to agree with Bins logic that Brass was our scum. I had jumped off of 2.7 so that I could go over Brass more closely and possibly start working a wagon on brass.

I don't know why but, I kind of get the feeling like I was set up. I know scum wouldn't have known that I was going to jump off but boy did that hammer come quickly after I got off. I'm convinced scum was on the wagon and I'm also super suspicious of SkyGrazer. I think Sky is the scum and they bussed 2.7 right at a time when they might be able to line up a mislynch day two.

Sky was on the E wagon from the begining, well, she jumped off once or twice but never said she wasn't suspecting him. She also gave clear intent well in advanced. What was it that actually convinced you in what Bins said?

I feel like the hammer was thrown super quick right after I hopped off and was starting to follow Bins logic. To me it just feels like it was a good way to put a town into a suspicious light. That is exactly how the situation is being framed. Ice jumped off to make a bigger delay. Its frustrating because I was super on board for lynching E. I was one of the ones who stayed on the longest.

It was quick, but two people voted for that hammer to happen. And saying you were on the "longest" while true is stretching for credibility. You votes E in post 222 and unvoted in 376, in those 154 posts in-between only 8 were from you. Just because your vote stayed on while you lurked doesn't mean you get a cookie for being on longest. Why is sky more suspect then Woo?

Why is everyone so hung up on “content” this game.
Like I feel stressed out to produce stuff but I have been playing the game. What else are you looking for? i agree with your Ice read.

You just say seemingly random things and don't support them. It's a very poor way to play, it doesn't look pro-town at all. You should be showing where the issues are and how you arrived at your conclusions. Just curious, is this your first game as IC?

I believe they're a necessity in the early game when they're an option, if the need to use em arises. Like imo 2.7 was a policy lynch. We can call his claim scummy or talk about how we read obvious bad intentions but let's avoid the unearned confidence of hindsight for a sec: the biggest argument for lynching him was depriving scum the capacity to use him as WIFOM. We all had doubts and wanted to back out at various points, and at the end of the day we kinda got lucky on a policy lynch. We weren't at all certain he was scum. We risked losing a doctor.
.

Not to sound pretentious, but when I came off the vote it was typically because I wanted to day to continue because we were getting content, and content helps the town. I never bought the claim *shrug* can't really prove it because I don't think I said it in those exact words. Not sure it's really a policy lynch, that's a stretch IMO. Either way glad it worked out how it did.

[nonny]

From all this I'm between Ice and Trinity as scum. More confident in the latter so VOTE: Trinity.

Feel free to continue your regularly scheduled program. (sorry for asking votes to stop, felt like a lot was happening quickly while I was stuck re-reading, now off to bed since stayed up way too late doing all that)

[nonny]

Mod, can you edit that huge unsightly blank space out of my post 454?

(Am I allowed to ask that?)

Done.

[nonny]

Also Ice's post 50 was, well, post 50. That was before the roleclaim. It was what started the 2.7 wagon in the first place. He was one of the first to call him out on it. Things weren't hopeless for 2.7. Up until Sky posted intent Bins was still acting like he wasn't gonna be lynched.

But most importantly: Bins was defending him even before his claim. It wasn't this sudden "Whoa, we might lose a doctor, let's back off." It was in line with a pattern of behavior.

For the first part, can you clarify if you are bringing this up in point or townIce or scumIce?

Also, how do you read Ice in hypothetical world where Bins is town in your mind?

[nonny]

I want to vote Bins, I think this makes it L-1.

VOTE: Bins

Putting someone at L-1 barely 24hrs into day 2 is bad play. Town does not benefit from a quick lynch. Also, personally uneasy with voting to that point when no official vote count has been posted recently, hence I asked for one from mod a few posts ago.

@nonny: Why would I coach E in the main thread rather than just do it in the mafia PT?

If you are not aware, current Newbie setup includes mafia daychat. I learned that when I was told it had changed from the old newbie setup.

Apparently it keeps people here as mafia, even though a traditional 2d3 setup would not have daychat.

I am aware, still have to remind myself, but aware. As I said, though upon reading my own post with fresh eyes some of it may look like rambling, the only reason I brought up the mild coaching is because it could be used for this argument. Which is WIFOM but I'm sure not unheard of.

To be clear I'm leaning town on brass, woo, sky.
Scum lean on Ice and trinity.

Okay, I really don't want to do this, but I also do not want to keep wasting time on Bins. Multiple people agreed if someone got to L-1 and you have confirmation they are town to claim. Bins is at L-1 (Woo, Ice, Trinity) are the votes. I don't know if I should straight out full claim, but don't want to hide anything either. I am Jailkeeper and I targeted Bins last night. If I didn't have this information, I would also still be on a Bins wagon, her posts are still scummy as can be. Again, we are already at L-1 and we are also wasting time on this wagon.

[nonny]

Sky, that makes a lot of sense actually. I’m not encouraging a claim, but if we have a 3rd confirm town that’s awesome. Hypothetically, we did confirm #3 if Bins is investigative then I could target Bin again in night and protect her leading to a 4th confirm town or confirmed scum. Most likely I’d be Nk but that’s already likely to happen. But then we’d have day 3 with either confirmed scum or 3(4-1 NK) confirm townie, then finding scum between the two left should be much easier. It’s exciting to think about, but I still

do not

want a claim.

[nonny]

Jailkeeping a player would mean they wouldn't receive investigative results.

Then how does your theory work? Leaving the Brass wagon must be related to something else for her. We didn’t have jailkeepr when I played last, all new to me. Got way to excited by that possibility, but basically the whole theory doesn’t hold water.

[nonny]

Realized point 2 after I posted sky, sorry.

I agree Woo.

[nonny]

So do I. I feel like it has to be Ice or trinity, unless one of you is just ridiculously good at scum.

Not impossible, just highly improbable.

So do you lynch me first or sky? I can tell you I"m town but, that doesn't really work. So I really hope that scum isn't in Brass, Woo, and Sky. If I have to self lynch to make things happen I'm willing to just tell me what you all want to do.

What is your read on Trinity?

I don't want to have blinders on, being over confidant could still be bad for the town. We should still use the time we have an make sure we are on the right track.

From all this I'm between Ice and Trinity as scum. More confident in the latter so VOTE: Trinity.

Feel free to continue your regularly scheduled program. (sorry for asking votes to stop, felt like a lot was happening quickly while I was stuck re-reading, now off to bed since stayed up way too late doing all that)

Gosh, I didn’t know I could ask for posts to stop. I’d like that too. I’m really struggling to catch up with everything that’s been said during my day at work, I really don’t know where to start! I have to keep checking definitions of things, like bussing, policy lynch, WIFOM, and every time I come back there’s another long post!

You can ask, doesn't mean it'll happen. See Bins post 314 for precedent in this very game. And I simply asked for votes to stop being thrown around.

[nonny]

I am still concerned about Sky being scum. Especially know that we look back and she tried to put info out there like she might be a possible power role. No one pushed her on it because it was D1 and we were pushing on E. Now, it comes out as some kind of weak assumption that Bins was a power role. I don't like the smell of it to be honest.

Ah, I'm glad someone picked up that I was keeping my initial statement vague enough to be interpreted that way. Can you think of any reasons why a town member would want to look like a power role when they're not?

Which is being discussed?
1

I still have that one reasoning as to why I think Bins could be town (the one I said I'm holding close to the chest that I'm still not willing to discuss) so I'm holding off on placing her at L-1 until I see more from her and Ice.

or
2

I don't think lynching Bins today is the best idea for the record, for reasons I don't want to talk about yet.

Because 1 independent of 2 could be a breadcrumb. But with 2 it just simply looks like a follow up. And following up a hint like that which was first posted day 1 doesn't look like a breadcrumb PR to me. Since as we all know, we start in Day. Short of being scum, everyone starts with the same information on other players.

The only reason I can think of is to get scum to target them at night instead of an actual power role

Ding ding

What I don't get is why you would admit to bread-crumbing for a role you are saying you don't have. Esp a weak breadcrumb at best. I'm utterly lost. I'd discount it as Ice stretching, but you admitting it is odd.

I do like that Ice is still scum hunting. The offer to lynch himself prior stood out but has too much WIFOM to really want to discuss. To be clear in post 453 I did not clear Sky wholly. I do still find E's anticipation of her odd. I have also already stated and still feel we shouldn't be overconfident, I do feel trinity is scum independent of our current scum in 2 scenario, but that does not mean we don't look at everyone else. Nothing is confirmed until scum is dead.

I'm convinced sky bussed E.

Reading back through Sky's Iso to find the "breadcrumb" I'd say this isn't farfetched. She casted shade on E but never actually voted him until pretty late in the game, she was on Nonny wagon at first and then tried to start Trinity wagon when we were pretty darn close to our E lynch conclusion. The only time she voted E was the hammer, this should not escape notice.

[nonny]

UNVOTE:

Just to be clear, no where near ready for Day 2 to end. We still have over 12 days that can be used. Also I assume I'm NK, so not looking forward to that

[nonny]

Trinity isn't at L-1 currently. But I'm going to put my vote back there, just does seem like best lynch. VOTE: trinity

If there is a Day 3 please look closely at Ice and Sky, if trinity isn't our scum then it's one of those two. Otherwise Brass or Woo did an amazing job as scum, but that's less likely.

[nonny]

Also for what it's worth I'm sorry I forced you to roleclaim lol, briefly blinded by tunnel vision there

Was hoping it would be longer before that happened. But you guys were gung ho (wasn't just you, Woo) and Bins wasn't helping things.

[nonny]

Also is anyone else starting to worry that Nonny may have been roleblocked N1? Like I still don't see Bins as conf town and this absence is awful.

I've had that worry too as soon as Sky mentioned the mafia RB. I would hope if we did have a Doc that they said something D1, but there was also confusion over whether they should claim too, so been worried about that.

Bins this time did say she'd be gone for the weekend, so this absence is expected. But still not great.

Agree a Trinity claim would be good at this stage.

[nonny]

You'd get a message if you were role locked wouldn't you?

A role that'd normally get a result would get "no result", but jailkeeper doesn't get a result, so I don't think so.

Give Trinity a chance to claim before hammering, please. L-1 with intent should be good enough for someone to claim

Ok. Then we'll wait to hear from trinity.

Agree a Trinity claim would be good at this stage.

No idea what to say at this point, I’m sick in bed with the flu, so happy for you to do what you like

Hmm... I wonder what everyone is waiting on..../sarcasm

[nonny]

Pretty sure that's a lynch. If I'm NK (most likely) then good game, see ya in the after game "bah" posts.

[nonny]

(obviously based on how Trinity flips....for the above)

[nonny]

Seriously? Yay! I mean, i was pushing the Trinity wagon but was still a little unsure. Good job town.

[nonny]

Sky, that was odd. Had me thinking of picking you in night mode. Lylo would have been a beast after all that.

[nonny]

Yes, thanks for modding!

It's a weird move, Sky. May need some fine tuning.

[nonny]

I still doubted Bins and played through in my head Trinity claiming doc which would mean RB was in okay. Got so nervous.

[nonny]

You could have tried. Not sure it would be believed. I ran it through my head both ways. I was very focused on you so not sure I would have believed it but there was enough doubt floating around about Bins for it to be believable