Excalibur [Endgame]

[Auro]

@UT: Fair enough. I'll still vote you if you gladiate before it's a ethical certified town approved gladiate.

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Gamma is good candidate to look into, quick to jump on strategies such as Varsoon without providing ideas of their own.

Firebringer trying to get everybody to reveal who they thought Arthur was, as the Fallen would know 4 of those guesses were bogus that would give 13 decent guesses to work with, any guesses on themselves would be ignored.
Further, claims and bosting of high success rates is rediculas

Lady's opening post is calling somebody as a fallen knight, dishonoured and unworthy to the rightfull claim of Excalibur, Further Lady is openly willing to take Excalibur
Also calls at Auro for discussin mechanics (Meta-Auro does this lots)
Also gives claim that Nancy and UT are town, without explaination as to why, Auro and I cought the foul laggards doing this in game that just ended.
Lady actually gives many reasons why not to follow along with any plan that has been laid out!

Untrod Tripod also jumps out, wants the sword, willing to run anybody through with it nightly and doesn't care the risk.


Varsoon i believe is hasn't fallen from the nobility of the round table, his suggestive play is the same as the one we just completed.
Dva same pro noble feel based on previous game, same push and drive.


Personally at this point I would see Firebringer and Lady enter the ring as they seem to be going after each other anyhow.

with Gamma, Untrod and varsoon going for the sword since two have said they don't care what the rest of the council say they are going for the sword.

Do you really want me to go after any special swords? ♪

[Gamma Emerald]

Oro should I be scouting the playerlist for 'good at both town and scum, that is both hard to read and very strong to have as a town leader.' myself?

so Maria?

Frozen Angel is pretty good at both too

I forgot about Frozen Angel

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Gamma is good candidate to look into, quick to jump on strategies such as Varsoon without providing ideas of their own.

Firebringer trying to get everybody to reveal who they thought Arthur was, as the Fallen would know 4 of those guesses were bogus that would give 13 decent guesses to work with, any guesses on themselves would be ignored.
Further, claims and bosting of high success rates is rediculas

Lady's opening post is calling somebody as a fallen knight, dishonoured and unworthy to the rightfull claim of Excalibur, Further Lady is openly willing to take Excalibur
Also calls at Auro for discussin mechanics (Meta-Auro does this lots)
Also gives claim that Nancy and UT are town, without explaination as to why, Auro and I cought the foul laggards doing this in game that just ended.
Lady actually gives many reasons why not to follow along with any plan that has been laid out!

Untrod Tripod also jumps out, wants the sword, willing to run anybody through with it nightly and doesn't care the risk.


Varsoon i believe is hasn't fallen from the nobility of the round table, his suggestive play is the same as the one we just completed.
Dva same pro noble feel based on previous game, same push and drive.


Personally at this point I would see Firebringer and Lady enter the ring as they seem to be going after each other anyhow.

with Gamma, Untrod and varsoon going for the sword since two have said they don't care what the rest of the council say they are going for the sword.

Do you really want me to go after any special swords? ♪

Full seriousness, this is a very incorrect analysis of my play. How much of the game have you read Ver Idian Cleric?

[Auro]

No, they won't be town leader, they'll be innocent child

It's not the same thing

We don't need a town leader and someone being unclaimed sword-holder will not make them 'town leader' when the reason we let them claim in the first place was them being scummy

While it's true that it's not the same thing, I don't think there's a negative correlation between how scummy someone is and how good their reads are. If anything, there's a positive one because (a) scum will generally try to discredit and push people with good reads and (b) they can form reads off of how people treat them, knowing that they themself are town.

There's a type of player, good at both town and scum, that is both hard to read and very strong to have as a town leader. If we do have someone hold onto the sword for the whole game, it should be someone like this.

gross post.

What's gross about it?

[Kokichi Oma]

Lady, I think you should change your location to currently in a Rage

This is not rage. You have not seen rage.

Also, your sidesnipe taunting makes you far more likely scum than it does Firebringer.

ok?

[Kokichi Oma]

Kokichi Oma -- possible scum

and here i thought you could always read me correctly. HMMM. Are you SCUM?

[MariaR]

Ah yes finally not puking everything. What's the first thing I do?
Play mafia.
Good job Maria.

[MariaR]

Ya'll are hard over-thinking this shit, which, imo, is what scum wants.
It's really fuckin' simple.

Everyone tries to claim sword N1.
Whoever gets it enjoys being BP and can claim if they need to confirm as IC if dueled.
If Merlin survives to D2, Merlin claims to become IC and, if he knows Arthur has the sword, he says so and Arthur keeps their mouth shut or
if he knows Arthur doesn't have the sword then he claims who Arthur is and boom
Town has 2 ICs on D2 and a secret BP IC or
Town has 1 IC on D2 and a secret BP Vig IC
If Non-confirmed-Arthur town gets the sword, they never attempt to vig with it because they are just going to shoot themselves in the foot 12 out of 14 times.

And that's it.
There's no more optimal play around it.
If you try to publicly gate who goes for the sword, you don't account for
1. Townies that disregard this shit
2. Scum having control of killing claimants/not
Basically playing around it as a public cop only works once and even then it's iffy.

Our goal should be to shut the fuck up and stop tilting who may or may not be Merlin and just scumhunt
There's no more point to discussing the Sword mechanics.

I can't take this post seriously when it comes to the logic of claiming (Although the 2nd part of the post is 10/10 and I would prob give Varsoon a giant hug for that part alone)
Let us look at the most likely scenario: It is day 2 2 knights are dead (town) A random guy has the sword.
So at that point, Merlin should claim so we get 3 'IC' with him whoever Arthur is and the random sword. With 15 alive that makes our lynch pool 12 with 1/3 chance of lynching correctly. While I do understand this play it seems wrong when we wouldn't even know who the IC or Arthur are. We can't control the sword IC but if say Arthur and the merlin are already towny then that doesn't really help us. 'but what if they're scummy maria' then we get to see people make honest pushes vs them and get reads. I'm going to assume the merlin has brain cells (lord help me if not) and is playing a certain way w/e that is to not be an obv nk. If the merlin did die n1 or n2 oh well that still makes this game red flag with another clear for whoever has the sword. This worst case you bring up isn't even as bad as you think. Sweet jesus fk I never thought I'd have to explain this. Idk if I want to go for the sword to off myself or never go for it so I don't gotta be an IC for the day. (Oh Auro was scummy and we were the others reacting to it because scum prob looks at varsoons post and doesn't try to look at it in depth like town due and just mark it off as towny ironically now that I say this it's more likely varsoon is town because scum spewed him town)

[MariaR]

I actually weakly think UT is town.

why?

Because he agreed with 216 and auro worships that post

Pro tip this is why Auro is prob town because his play make sense with his emotions and overall tone of the thread. It's very hard to fake what Auro is doing as scum rn. His naive aura is the same thing Nancy does and make it easy too...well I won't say cause she gets triggered. Classic trick learned at the academy

If there is no declining gladiated that makes sense then if multiple people request the sword is the decision on who is getting the sword occur before or after the Fallens' Nighkill?

As the sword recipient is randomly selected from those whom commanded to retrieve it, I would imagine the selection is done from the remaining knights after the nightkill has been performed.

Yes. Once again soldier this was stating in the opening post of game. I assume you forgot about it? You had to have read it at one point.

To be clear, I'm still playing by "unlimited hurt tags" so I am currently voting Kokichi, Tripod, and Elsa.

As I said, primarily gut, but also I'd say he seems way more aggressive here than he did in Witches Ball.

Ms Dva how did you reach these 3 as scum? They're people that are murky and I would like more input on. With all these posts and how you play 'just gut' isn't all I expect you to have

If Merlin knows that Arthur has claimed the sword, why shouldn’t they confirm it?

Because arthur ALREADY HAS THE SWORD and all merlin confirming doing is telling him to shoot it - something that they are likely to do within 1-2 nights anyway, and even if they don't shoot it it's /just/ a vig, I think I'd rather have an additional confirmed town hidden away

How does Merlin get confirmed without confirming Arthur?

I mean after Arthur's outed, they can only just claim to be Merlin. Premise being that scum wouldn't fakeclaim/counterclaim Merlin.

Ah fuck
I just realized a nasty scum strategy that could really send Town in a downward spiral
I’m NOT saying what it is because it’s something they possibly aren’t aware of.

Do you see the error in this post. You're saying you want to hide a strategey that scum can have and yet at the same time you're quoting a post to help hint at them said strategey. Please don't try and tell me you quoted that to be misleading because you're not good enough to do that putting it in blunt terms.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also Vigs in a setup this large are kind of anti-town until later in the game in emergency ANYWAY, so............

We shouldn't be worried about Arthur or Merlin too much. Just focus on getting a confirmed town and lynching scummy people.

Glad we're on the same page ms Lambdadelta

if anything I followed LLD?

I don't believe UT and Lady are partners for obv reason although I don't see the reason they're mostly scumread for the posting they've made so far at all anyway.

this is gonna be one of those games i see

I've skipped every post until this one because of how much Auro is mech talking with Nancy and getting nothing done.
The only thing I have to note is while I don't really agree fully with Gamma's scumread of Auro I think he believes it so he can be part of the town.

like 5 players haven't even posted yet and 3 others have single digit post counts
it's just really unnecessarily messy, if you will

Agreed. I wish Auro would stop talking mechs and post more scumreads because it's just clogging the thread at this point and is honestly not that helpful what so ever. He could be a homunculus but I have nothing to base it on besides annoyance. SirCakez is town

useless fights are gonna be more useful in the scumhunting game though

I'm blown away that you think useless fights won't kill player interest but 7 pages of opening discussion will

Gladiations immediately limit town scumhunting potential and lock the dayphase into two people. That will nuke *my* interest in the game if people start doing it, which is precisely why I want town to be aware that yolo-dueling will result in the yoloing player getting lynched every time. There is nothing more boring to me than seeing two townreads gladiate each other because one had a momentary fleeting thought that the other was scum.

Town doing shitty gladiates on other town is pretty much the foundation of the scum wincon here because the gladiation mechanic will mean that until the lynch goes through they don't have to commit to any other read on any other player and can coast--and town will want to coast too. Basically gladiations force the town to come to standstill until someone dies.

Should we vote and do hurt tags and have the 2 most scummy players fight each other? Yes that will keep the game not going into an ego contest and trying to play hero just like the desp game. Do I think you fellow soldiers have the self restraint? No.

like d.va I said earlier that someone who rando-gladiates early should be PLed
that's def not what I want

Disagree that it should be a direct

Policy Lynch

, this almost feels like pre-emptive opportunism.

Random gladidates depend on the context of it but I would be down to policy myself depending on the action. Take this post as you will

Yeah, based on Dance, that makes sense. That’s the only scumgame of hers, I’m familiar with but she did a lot of that weird distancy thing with Short and Fire in that.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I have townreads on Gamma/Cakez at the moment
I would vote UT//Varsoon at the moment

Agree on Gamma/Cakes. I’m not townreading UT and Varsoon’s ovveraction to DVa concerns me. I want to see the entire playerlist before I vote.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Admitting I did not read carefully through the whole mechanics thing.

But Auro (47) and Nancy ([post 70]) are you really advocating that any of us who get the sword should try to vig? The worst case scenario is 3 town dead by D2 (one lunched, one NKd, and one dead not-Arthur)—and tbh it's not actually that unlikely. Unless we're super super confident in not only getting one scum, but two, at the least there'll be two town dead. this is weird

Link post 70. I’m pretty sure that you’ve misconstrued my post.

[Auro]

Let us look at the most likely scenario: It is day 2 2 knights are dead (town) A random guy has the sword.
So at that point, Merlin should claim so we get 3 'IC' with him whoever Arthur is and the random sword. With 15 alive that makes our lynch pool 12 with 1/3 chance of lynching correctly. While I do understand this play it seems wrong when we wouldn't even know who the IC or Arthur are. We can't control the sword IC but if say Arthur and the merlin are already towny then that doesn't really help us.

So you're saying claims should happen as such:
Arthur gets sword: Merlin outs Arthur (Matches Varsoon's strat)

Arthur doesn't get sword

: Merlin still outs Arthur
You're asserting that in the latter case, this reduces the lynch pool, but the way I see it, the lynch pool reduces even *without* outing the swordholder.
If the swordholder becomes a consensus scumread, enough to trigger a gladiate, *then* he should claim.
Merlin can crumb Arthur/Swordholder, so in case scum happen to NK Merlin, we then know Arthur is Arthur for sure.
A secret BP swordholder reduces chances (slightly) for a successful NK as well.

So why is outing Swordholder superior to keeping them hidden?

[DVa]

Ms Dva how did you reach these 3 as scum? They're people that are murky and I would like more input on. With all these posts and how you play 'just gut' isn't all I expect you to have

Tripod for agreeing with Varsoon's post while obviously processing 0% of it seemed scummy AF

Elsa just doesn't read as authentic in his posts so far

[Auro]

Tripod for agreeing with Varsoon's post while obviously processing 0% of it seemed scummy AF

It's

pretty

clear that he agreed with the "Let's shut up and play" part of the post, not necessarily the strategy parts. I hope this alone is not why you're scumreading him.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Talking mechs is the most NAI/scummy content you can ever bring yourself to talk about because you're talking about something that is rather simple instead of scumhunting like you should be doing overall the mech talk. If you look at this game in the most basic sense it's red flag with 2 ICs with everyone having a gladiator power. If we work together on using hurt tags to put up the 2 people everyone finds the most scummy that is gonna be more useful then fighting over what the 'best plan' for the sword is. What you're doing isn't helpful it's more anti town then not

It's baffling that you're coming to the same conclusion as me but you're scumreading me for coming to that conclusion.
I don't get it.

@Nancy: Sorry, got worked up, don't really want anyone to die or anything like that, but it is frustrating that people are way overthinking this and getting taken for a ride.
I don't mean to insult anyone personally; I don't trust the entire playerlist and I think DVa's plan keeps us too mechanics focused while giving up the one strength we have from this setup.

@Auro: Misleading us how? I've been forthright with everything and I wouldn't even call it 'leading' to say we should just play the game the way it was probably designed to be played.

Okay, I feel better about you now.

[DVa]

It's pretty clear that he agreed with the "Let's shut up and play" part of the post, not necessarily the strategy parts. I hope this alone is not why you're scumreading him.

Is that pretty clear?

[MariaR]

if we could actually get only two people to agree to go for the sword, i would be amazed

Our firepup brings up the best point. Does the idea of making possbile homunculus A battle B and then the winner plus possible homunculus C go for the sword sound like a great idea? Yes but getting it to work is the hard part you're all a bit stubborn...like a certain man I know.

i don't find anything elsa posted to be scummy.
in case anyone was wondering.

I was wondering. Thank you firepup

No, they won't be town leader, they'll be innocent child

It's not the same thing

We don't need a town leader and someone being unclaimed sword-holder will not make them 'town leader' when the reason we let them claim in the first place was them being scummy

and if UT gets the sword the issue self-resolves anyway, so stop worrying about it Auro wtf

If only you knew this during witches ball. Oh well soldiers live and learn with experience

[MariaR]

Let us look at the most likely scenario: It is day 2 2 knights are dead (town) A random guy has the sword.
So at that point, Merlin should claim so we get 3 'IC' with him whoever Arthur is and the random sword. With 15 alive that makes our lynch pool 12 with 1/3 chance of lynching correctly. While I do understand this play it seems wrong when we wouldn't even know who the IC or Arthur are. We can't control the sword IC but if say Arthur and the merlin are already towny then that doesn't really help us.

So you're saying claims should happen as such:
Arthur gets sword: Merlin outs Arthur (Matches Varsoon's strat)

Arthur doesn't get sword

: Merlin still outs Arthur
You're asserting that in the latter case, this reduces the lynch pool, but the way I see it, the lynch pool reduces even *without* outing the swordholder.
If the swordholder becomes a consensus scumread, enough to trigger a gladiate, *then* he should claim.
Merlin can crumb Arthur/Swordholder, so in case scum happen to NK Merlin, we then know Arthur is Arthur for sure.
A secret BP swordholder reduces chances (slightly) for a successful NK as well.

So why is outing Swordholder superior to keeping them hidden?

I was talking about what Varsoon was saying not my own thoughts on the matter. I pointed out how his plan is objectively bad

[Nancy Drew 39]

Everyone let us all begin by giving our Arthur reveal.

If you don’t know what I mean I am saying we all soft Merlin role and claim a person to be Arthur.
In case Merlin is night killed/lynched by accident we have our cleared townie.

Let me begin:
Varsoon is Arthur

Fuuuuck no
Read the mechanics again.

Ah Gamma your no fun Firebringers idea was good because we the anybody who is unwilling is likely scum and the true Merlin can't say the actual Arthur so can pick somebody who is not he
therefore They who be Merlin can safely point at any other fellow muggle to distract the scum. If Merlin gets dueled/killed than we know the target is not Arthur.

How is Merlin claiming the real Arthur, all that different from everyone claiming someone other than Arthur? The problem with this strategy is, that why can’t someone accidently claim Arthur, so I don’t think I’m getting it?

[Nancy Drew 39]

@Varsoon: He said confirmed *in* LyLo, not claiming in LyLo, there's a difference, right?
You don't think Merlin/Swordholder works better as a hidden IC till the day before LyLo, as opposed to coming out in D2 where he becomes an obvious NK?

It's not confirmable.

An example from 3p LYLO.
Player 1: I'm Merlin and have the sword
Player 2: No, I'm Merlin and have the sword
Player 3: Oh no! This plan had an obvious hole in it! Who could have ever predicted it!

I don't love us trying to "solve" the game like it's a fucking math problem. What I've seen in other games when this happened was scum got to hide in mechanics talk all game instead of having to actually engage with other players.

oh and no thanks on hurt tags. I say you gladiate your scum reads. I joined this game because the mechanics were different. Let's keep it different.

The hurt tags are to establish a town consensus, so we avoid yolo dueling. Why would you be opposed to that?

[Auro]

It's pretty clear that he agreed with the "Let's shut up and play" part of the post, not necessarily the strategy parts. I hope this alone is not why you're scumreading him.

Is that pretty clear?

Yes. Read his later posts. He clearly said this isn't a math problem, blah blah, just wants to have fun, etc etc.
Should I go find his quotes?

Also,

FoS

: DVa. She's a lot more chatty as town, and finds it difficult to emulate that as scum.
She has had not a *single* non-serious post this game, excepting 650, a (seemingly half-hearted) response to Firebringer asking her for vids/GIFs.
DVa, do you think my meta evaluation of you is fair?

[Nancy Drew 39]

HURT: LLD
HURT: UT

Also ur wrong maria

I’m not very familiar with LLD’s meta. She has different ways of playing as scum?

I know I dislike UT’s opposition to the hurt tags, if anything is clearly a good idea, it’s that one.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Basically, if Merlin dies, we lose all of our ICs because
1. Scum can claim they have the sword when they don't.
2. Merlin has to claim who Arthur is for Arthur to be IC.

This all goes to shit in a MYLO/LYLO because scum have higher incentive to fake-claim and force a 50/50 instead of taking the worse odds.

Actually, Arthur successfully vigging, also confirms them as IC.