Starcraft Mafia -- Game Over!

[Krazy]

Votecount 2.11

Performer(4)

~ Xtoxm(103), Mitillos(19), Mewtaph(47), AlmostNancy(401)

Keyser Söze(4)

~ Kokichi Oma(46), skitter30(81), Varsoon(156), the worst(205)

Mewtaph(2)

~ Performer(47), Nauci(287)

Xtoxm(1)

~ Shoshin(125)


Not Voting (1): Keyser Söze(46)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2018-12-23 13:58:05)

FLAVOR

Spoiler:

[Kokichi Oma]

22 hours left. I'll switch to performer even tho i dont like the wagon

VOTE: Performer

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Mew

[Nauci]

This game has made me feel like I actually suck at mafia

While the flooding in my apartment makes me feel like I'm at -999 energy level and I may not be around for EOD

T_T

[Shoshin]

You don't suck, Nauci. I think most players are clearing Xtom/Mitillos too easily. Other than that, we're on the right track.

[Shoshin]

I'm voting Mew because I think Performer's more likely to flip town. I think scum Performer plays more cautiously than he's played in this game, and I think the players pushing Performer's lynch are themselves scummy (Xtom, Mitillos, Mew, Koki). I also think scum Performer doesn't scumread most of the players in the game, as he's been doing. If anything, scum Performer gives out a few strategic townreads in the hopes of pocketing a townie. I also think it's unlikely that scum Performer links me to three town games without linking to a scum game. The lack of self awareness there just doesn't feel like scum Performer.

If it were up to me, I'd lynch between Xtom/Mitillos today. I feel like whenever I suspect someone is scum that most players townread, I'm usually right. the worst, you can think back to xwing in schadd's game, or Random in Labyrinth, as examples. I'm getting the same feelings this game, that people are townreading a player who is scum. I'm fairly confident there's at least one scum between Xtom/Mitillos, based on how things went down on D1. I'm not sure who the scum is between them but I don't think either should be townread.

Reasons not to townread Xtom:

Spoiler:

1. Xtom's early scumread on me doesn't come from the perspective of someone actually trying to sort my alignment. Compare Xtom's read with Performer's, for example. Performer actually traces specific behaviors that lead to a scumread, whereas Xtom just says he doesn't like the early townreads. Yet he ignores everyone else who's been giving out early townreads, which suggests that he's not actually concerned about players giving out early townreads; there's an ulterior reason he's scumreading me. I think the most plausible explanation for Xtom's early play is that he scumread me as part of a scum agenda to pocket Varsoon (see, for example, his early post to Varsoon about "hoping they're on the same team this game") as well as to keep me available as a mislynch.

2. Xtom's emotions don't feel natural for a townie. For example, he expresses emotions of disgust towards the early parts of the game where lots of players were giving out townreads ("disgust" isn't a natural townie emotion to seeing lots of townreads). I can point to numerous places where Xtom's emotions feel too strong or unnatural for the events that are happening. The emotions also don't square with his sort of emotionless attitude towards actual scumhunting.

3. Xtom's reads are entirely survivalistic. If you townread him, he townreads you. If you scumread him, he scumreads you. This isn't how town Xtom thinks, because town Xtom assumes that most townies are wrong about their reads. His lack of paranoia about the players townreading him, as well as his consistent scumreads on the players scumreading him, comes from a scum agenda, not from a genuine attempt to sort alignments. What is his scum agenda? It depends on the alignments of Performer/Key/Mew/Mitillos. Whatever their alignments, there's a clear scum agenda to Xtom's reads. Most importantly, he's putting easily manipulated townies (e.g. Nancy, Varsoon) towards the top of his reads (especially Varsoon, who he's been actively pocketing from the start of the game). And he's setting certain players up as potential mislynches (me, Performer, Mitillos). He lists strong townies somewhere in the middle (e.g. the worst, Nauci), with occassional attempts to move them lower on his readslist (e.g. his attempt to scumread Nauci).

4. Xtom's still has me as his top scumread. I don't believe a townie ever scumreads me in this game to that extent, not after the way I've been playing, not after Irrelephant's defense of me or after Irrelephant's death, not after everyone who knows my town/scum meta strongly townreads me. It's fine to have some irrational paranoia about me, but listing me as a top scumread runs counter to everything that's actually happening in the game. It's very unlikely that town Xtom genuinely trying to sort me sticks with me as their top suspect while not actually pushing me. It reminds me of scum NSG in TAZ Mafia. She kept saying I was scummy without pushing me, biding her time until LYLO, when I got mislynched. I get the sense that Xtom's doing something similar, trying to keep me open as a mislynch while doing nothing to actually push me when my lynch isn't going to happen. If he actually thinks I'm most likely to flip scum, why isn't he pushing me more?

5. Xtom's won lots of games as scum. He's a lot more competent scum than most players in this game give him credit for. Clearing him for superficial reasons isn't helpful. His actions need to be looked at very carefully.

Reasons not to townread Mitillos:

Spoiler:

1. His apathy towards solving the game. He's barely posted on D2. When he posts, it doesn't seem like he's analyzing the game with anything close to the depth of thought he had on D1. He doesn't seem interested in refining his reads. Instead, he's locked his reads into place based on mechanical reasons (e.g. Performer hammering NM). I feel like town Mitillos would be analyzing roles/flavor more, weighing in on Varsoon/Nancy, Mew's claim/behavior, etc. In general, analytical players like Mitillos (or Skitter, Nauci, etc.) tend to drop off as scum in precisely the way Mitillos has dropped off in this game. Faking that analytical style of play is quite exhausting as scum, and that's the sense I'm getting from Mitiillos.

2. I think he's been pushing a scum agenda. Like Xtom, he's pushing Performer over Key/Mew. This depends on their alignments, of course, but I get the sense Performer's flipping town and that Mitillos is pushing mislynches. He pushed a mislynch on NM. If Performer flips town, that's two mislynches he's pushed. His votes on D1 always seemed to be in precisely the spots where I'd expect scum to vote (assuming my townreads on the worst, Nauci, Varsoon, Skitter, and Nancy are right). His early push on Irrelephant was terrible. His switch from Xtom to Performer the moment that Xtom was placed at L-1 was bad. His defense of Mew as town doesn't make sense to me.

3. The biggest problem I have with Mitillos is his response to my push on Nancy. In case it wasn't obvious yet, I was pushing Nancy in large part to test reactions. I wasn't actually thinking she was scum, but I thought the reasons I gave for scumreading her were correct. The problem with my push on Nancy is that I was ignoring all her town tells while pushing her on things that are actually scummy in a vacuum but not nearly enough to outweigh the massive town tells she's dropped nor were they scummy for her specifically. I didn't think scum would ever pick up on that. I was looking for two things -- players who agreed with me on the push on Nancy without much deeper thought, and players who strongly disagreed with me for the wrong reaosns. Mitillos fell into the latter group. He disagreed with the push, calling my reasoning "fallacious," when it really wasn't. He said he understood why town Nancy would townread NM, but I think the only reason Mitillos would feel that way about Nancy is if he KNEW Nancy was town. Worse, Mitillos felt the need to explain why he was calling my reasoning "fallacious," in a way that felt like he was trying to justify his behavior/perspective when nobody was even calling him scummy for it. That preemptive defense of his behavior is one of the scummiest things I've seen in the game. It's like he unconsciously was betraying an informed perspective and preemptively defended himself for it.

[Shoshin]

@Shoshin: I can answer why she townread N_M, and I already did (because she already explained it, herself). I cannot answer whether her reasoning fits her town meta. As for throwing shade at your slot, tempers are high, what with us lynching a doctor. I can accept such things as coming from town generally. If Nancy is not capable of these things as town, that's another story, but I don't have the meta for this suggestion.
When I made reference to empty "he's town" posts, I didn't mean just those words. I meant half-hearted non-effort at explaining or defending N_M.

I'm defending her because I think that your reasoning for scumreading her is fallacious. I don't like fallacious reasoning. I don't like fallacious reasoning even when it comes to a conclusion I agree with. In fact, as town I once defended another player against fallacious accusations, and made my own case against him in the same post (and caught a lot of flak for doing this).

This is the Mitillos post I was referring to. He doesn't know Nancy's town meta, so he shouldn't be calling my reasoning "fallacious" (it's based entirely on Nancy's meta). Mitillos knows Nancy's alignment.

Then, he defends what he's doing preemptively. That part is bolded. I don't get why Mitillos is preemptively defending himself as a towny. Town don't need to explain why everything they're doing is towny. Scum, on the other hand, are mentally thinking this stuff as they post (i.e. "is what I'm doing something I'd do as town?" is a common question that scum ask themselves). The fact that Mitillos would be posting an answer to that question without any attack on him suggests that he's mentally answering that question before he posts, which suggests he's scum.

[AlmostNancy]

Please dude stop
I am exhausted with
"YOU CANT READ ME TELL ME HOW YOU COULD THINK THIS IS MY SCUMPLAY" play

I've been over this.
I had it in my head that the way you were playing was intentionally panic!baiting whoever town!Duran was so you could NK them to deny info.

No! I’m never fucking stopping. I didn’t do any such thing. A50 knows nothing about this setup, from what I can tell and you and Nauci are the apparent experts, as far as I can tell.

If you think I’m ever just going to sit back and ignore someone wrongly scumreading me, than you have been blatantly ignoring my play, in every game I’ve played with you.

So, don’t ever ask me to stop. Hell will freeze over before that would ever happen and you should fucking know me better than to ever even think of asking of me, something so ridiculous and dumb, Sorry but you asking me not defend myself here, is insulting frankly. When did you decide, that you or anyone else, gets the right to demand, I become a masochist?

I believe he's asking you to stop responding to literally every single post where anyone has ever mentioned scum reading or

possibly

scum reading or even the reasons they previously scum read you individually with a defensive response that's more or less reiterating things you've already said (e.g. that your information did not mention a Duran). Especially when the view from those posts have already evolved and changed by the time of your response.

Which is what I was facetiously referring to as well.

I obviously hadn’t been caught up.

[AlmostNancy]

I read AlNan about equally to Varsoon atm which is to say my read on both has increased dramatically this phase and I don't consider the stuff they're fighting over to be explicitly AI

actually I'd be slightly disappointed in the shallowness of the setup if Nancy's role could be spewed scum via flavour softing, and I don't think this is how she approaches an informed scum role like this anyway :/

No, like you already said, I’d be keeping my mouth glued shut about it, if I were scum here. I was only bugging Varsoon, because I thought he could help,me understand my informed flavour claim better, because without his and Nauci’s help, I would still know virtually nothing about it, other than it exists.

Everyone was asking me about its alignment and I had no freaking clue, so I was trying to figure it out.

Like for example, in this post, TW was saying that you are not scum because if you were scum you wouldn't be behaving the way you are

So there's no need to re-re-re-reiterate that you were getting clarification of your flavor

It's not a productive use of any of our time to be reiterating these interactions

And I feel like many of us have had the same interactions with you ad nauseum in instances like this when we'd rather be sorting others with our bandwidth

I disagree. I mean we’re not being viewed as obvtown yet.

[AlmostNancy]

Wonky shit is (iirc) that Keyser claimed Informed Town Gunsmith after there had been a lot of discussion about Gunsmith in the setup.

Key claimed “informed”? Informed about what?

Not yet - I know there is a third party who can’t win with town.

I’m really getting town pings from this. Why does scum!Key ever post this here?

Scum would absolutely want to hunt 3p

It makes it easy to look like they're genuinely hunting for scum

And just the introduction of the idea of 3p frequently throws enough chaos into discussion that it gives scum more room to breathe

I would agree, if Keys had either not much of a basis to think this or if his posts about it, struck me as somehow weird. Scum!Bujaber in Overkill 2, made some extremely suspicious posts about SKs, actually doing the exact opposite of this.

[AlmostNancy]

I don't buy town having a gunsmith when we've got two roles that'd already ping it and there's high chance scum have roles to give it 'false' clears.

But that really depends on how much the mod has designed this specifically to ruin my day.

What 2 roles “ping” it?

Creature (vig) and Irrelephant (PGO) both are town with guns

Creature was even night vig, so he couldn’t have visited Irrelephant11.

But I don’t understand how that pings it?

What's your definition of "ping"?

Makes you suspicious. But I still don’t understand why this necessarily pinged you?

[AlmostNancy]

It's not that hard to see why my tone has twisted that way. Nauci is voting me selectively because I actually bit back and said she's not thinking about the game properly. the worst is just in a never ending loop where he doesn't want to engage me so he thinks I'm scum based off of his first impression. skitter just wants me roped. Varsoon has sound advice but doesn't know the specific circumstances of my info - it's a themed game and we've already had a lot of interestingly manipulated roles at this point.

I think it's pretty clear who I want lynched today. I think it's pretty clear who I think is town.

I even posted a reads list

earlier today

that people are pretending I never made so they can continue to be insensitive to my claim space.

I'm voting you because of the 3 main wagons today I scum read performer the least and want to give Keyser room based on his iso+gunsmith claim so I scumread you the most

I think that lobbing in the vagueclaim and then mostly exiting the thread isn't towny

Almost all of Mew’s reads seem self-centric. Is this AI for him?

[AlmostNancy]

quack

forgot I'm not the mod nvm
Nauci lmk when you catch up on pg162

[AlmostNancy]

I don't think Performer's lying about his BP claim, so why would Performer would scum claim BP here?

VOTE: Performer

You never explained this progression from defending Performer to voting him in your next post, despite being asked.

What's your reason for scoffing at the analysis that there is at least one scum among the competing wagons from d1

Seriously...?

And chose to be sarcastic instead of answering this question

It's not that hard to see why my tone has twisted that way. Nauci is voting me selectively because I actually bit back and said she's not thinking about the game properly. the worst is just in a never ending loop where he doesn't want to engage me so he thinks I'm scum based off of his first impression. skitter just wants me roped. Varsoon has sound advice but doesn't know the specific circumstances of my info - it's a themed game and we've already had a lot of interestingly manipulated roles at this point.

I think it's pretty clear who I want lynched today. I think it's pretty clear who I think is town.

I even posted a reads list

earlier today

that people are pretending I never made so they can continue to be insensitive to my claim space.

You've repeatedly accused the game of going by POE instead of actively sorting people, and it's fucking bullshit.

1: your reads list had essentially the same group of town reads as everyone else, for reasons you didn't state because you felt they had already been stated (aka, other people have already actively sorted them)

2: multiple people have attempted to engage with you

to fucking actively sort you

and were met with a lack of responses

3: the same people have questioned all of the other players we haven't sorted in an attempt to actively sort people

4: you're framing the jumping around targets as "bullshit" and just going through a POE list

instead

of engaging and actively sorting. By definition, we are not just quick lynching through our Poe list. We are bouncing between targets, pressuring and interrogating, and re-evaluating each player based on their responses and moving elsewhere if we feel it was towny. It's an absurd and bullshit accusation to levvy on the group.

5: I already made this criticism of your "POE" accusations before and thought it was a bullshit and drummed up excuse to be apathetic about the game. You even asked me why I have someone else shit for POE comments instead of you, and I said that I had just post a rant at you which you didn't read. You then didn't respond to that post pointing it out either.

6: characterizing skitter's push on you as "just wants me roped" is bullshit. She has stated why she scum reads you and wants you lynched because she scum reads you. At no point during her push on you, have you posted towny content. You've complained about her read on you and just about everyone's reads and post almost exclusively about this vague claiming crap.

7: what bite back about not thinking about the game properly? Do you mean the baseless POE accusations that I have now twice refuted? I have made it repeatedly clear that you have failed to post towny content and engage with the game and it is why you're scummy

8: the worst has tried to engage you multiple times. You ignoring all of us and saying it's our fault is scummy gaslighting at this point

9: Is it clear who you want lynched? Is it performer, who you were voting at the time of this post, immediately after commenting that you thought his claim wasn't coming from scum?

10: we're not being "insensitive to you'd claim space." We're being sensitive to your total lack of town effort and active trying to shade our town efforts

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Mewtaph

I like this case on him.

[AlmostNancy]

I was saying that a gunsmith would get a guilty on both of them.

Yes, that’s true but that’s why we would need to take their play into account and not just the guilty, in this particular case.

The context of his point is that a town gunsmith would be negative utility due to these 2 known false positives while it would help scum find tpr

Okay, I see but I think his claim is still believable. And at this point, do we still even have reason to think there’s anymore tprs with guns - now that both of them are dead?

If not, that role would no longer be a negative utility and we know if real, he couldn’t have gotten any results prior to the NKs. However, the inclusion of the word “informed” in the claim, is what makes me think it isn’t fake.

[AlmostNancy]

town gunsmith doesn’t sound like something scum would fake

What if The Worst told you this is something he has faked as scum twice (okay he was actually a scum gunsmith one of those times)

And that gunsmith is one of the easier roles to fake claim and more useful roles for scum to have

Yes but “informed” is what makes me think it’s real.

[AlmostNancy]

he only has about 16 posts today and none of them have done anything particularly redeeming imo.
he made another post that pinged me a bit as well. 3673

I was seriously town leaning him first half of d1 but his d2 posts have seriously deteriorated in the exact way that scum find it extremely difficult to keep up faking read progressions

Namely, he's basically provided none and has repeatedly answered questions about read updates with "I already explained my scum read it hasn't changed" which had felt completely inorganic

Did it possibly occur to anyone else that he has a possible TMI? I could be wrong about this but I think he had a post about 3 unclaimed Prs? At first, I thought he might be some kind of investigative but if he does actually have info on not 1 but 3 tprs, that is highly unlikely on D2.

[AlmostNancy]

So many people have dumped so much effort into fluffing around what my info is, like if you have a problem with it being hidden then maybe

don't

fish out three different player's roles because you can't decide who to lynch for jack shit and flip around for like 10 extra days than necessary instead of finally deciding on a lynch. Choose one and flip it.

Okay NM, I was wrong about that.

[Nauci]

Shoshin, what are your current thoughts on Keyser?

[Nauci]

In general, analytical players like Mitillos (or Skitter, Nauci, etc.) tend to drop off as scum in precisely the way Mitillos has dropped off in this game. Faking that analytical style of play is quite exhausting as scum, and that's the sense I'm getting from Mitiillos.

This is precisely why my town read of him has absolutely dropped off a cliff today

He played like reundo/me/etc. enough on d1 that his d2 has screamed struggling-to-fake-it

I'm relieved you agree

[Nauci]

I think scum Performer plays more cautiously than he's played in this game

Reading the scum PTs for his 2 scum games had me feeling similarly

He's really tough to read for me and I think he may actually be low hanging fruit?

I need to go back and check who raged at us for not quick lynching him today

[Kokichi Oma]

VOTE: mew

sure idc

[Kokichi Oma]

18 hours l2

[Nauci]

Makes you suspicious. But I still don’t understand why this necessarily pinged you?

Varsoon and I were using "ping" here to mean "returns a 'has a gun' result."

Therefore, pgo/vig would "ping" the gunsmith check.

There was some miscommunication due to our different definitions.

[Shoshin]

I'm okay leaving Key alive for now, Nauci. What do you think of the scum tell I pointed to in 2559?