Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[Enter]

I figured out a better way to explain why your logic is circular, BTW:

Spoiler: me flipping out after you calling my wagon scummy

Right so for loopdan you had 'condemning evidence' for me your gut is guiding you? Im getting ready to my reads with a little more content, maybe that will help/hurt your opinion of me. Honestly rereading loopdans interactions you read kind of scummy, I saw your push as town, but that flip hurt you in my mind, your attitude was cocky and you werent willing to look at anyone else, then we come into D2 and you are upset i ask you for more reads and tell you not to tunnel.

You're misrepping me right now, and this is a big reason you're a scum read. Because you regularly do scummy things like this.

I didn't get upset that you asked me for reads. Pretty sure I made that pretty clear.
I also wasn't upset that you asked me to stop tunneling people - you never did that, and you also agreed that I shouldn't stop tunneling people, so you know this, too, is wrong.

I was upset because you acted like you had some sort of control over my play "we arent gonna have you tunnel one guy."

As far as reading you for different reasons, pretty sure you agreed with me that something was wrong with the loopdan read, so OMGUSing me for approaching my other reads differently is also dumb. Stop.

I honestly could see an RCE/Thespio scumteam RN.

1. That's not true. Munch disagreed with everything I said yesterday, and you actually agreed with me for the first part.
2. It is misrepping me, show me where I posted that I was upset that you told me not to tunnel/asked me for more reads. Show me how I got upset about that. Cuz I guarantee this is not me being upset about reads:

You and Magik are funny like this, acting like you have any control whatsoever about how I proceed with the gameday or like I have any intention of going through another loopdan situation again. Not to be an ass, but I don't care if I have your approval for anything I do. I'd really like to see more involvement from you, too. Pretty much anything past surface level reads and bad implementation of game theory/ generally too scummy to be scum behavior.

It's not even me being upset about you thinking tunnels are dumb. It's me being upset about you saying "you aren't gonna do this."

And quit with the FOS crap. Put your vote on me and quit sitting on the fence. And again, that's not how my reads worked, you're assuming a position for me and then attacking that instead of responding to what I'm actually saying.

This is another reason you're scummy, you're going to try and get me all riled up by responding w/ OMGUS, and when that doesn't work (again) you're going to be like "this is TvT" (again) and then assume everyone will townread you.

I can case you later but you've done a load of scummy stuff this game.

I'm still disinclined to believe that scum!Enter would do such a massive deathtunnel and draw so much attention to himself Day 1 knowing that Loop would flip town. That doesn't really make his play good, since it definitely hasn't been most of the game, but his motivations aren't reading sour to me as much as overly eager to case people instead of thinking everything through.

This was my initial thought, but the fact he lynched based on his own sense of logic D1 and now is fishing for wagons D2 to me seems utterly susp. Also why would he defend munch? is it not normal to say you made a mistake and look at the people who did too (intentionally or not?) The fact his wagon is all town but they lynched a townie is super sketchy to me.

LOL. Two things:
1. You pushed loop.
2. You pushed elements.

You pushed one more town wagon than I did. You pushed a PR to the point of claiming. "the fact they lynched a townie is super sketchy" actually wtf.

1. Munch agreed with you and hes near the top of your town list. Point made.
2. Any time you have to say "Not to be an Ass" its you being an ass. Unless you are naturally an ass (which I interacted with you and thought you werent) it tends to be because of emotional turmoil.


2.5 IM NOT VOTING YOU BECAUSE I WANT TO LOOK AT MUNCH AND RCE. You getting on me seemed off though which is the purpose of my post, you arent my first or second pick, but the guys i want arent engaging with me or in munches case interacting with anyone because they are opportunistically posting.

Thats where I am at.

1. Munch disagreed with me on both Loop AND elements. This is what you get for skimming my ISO instead of actually reading it.
2. You're misrepping me and hiding behind "you're a jerk." Stop. That's not an excuse.

You pushed a PR to the point of claiming. "the fact they lynched a townie is super sketchy" actually wtf.

Let me just stop this right there. As I said in my response to Muh pushing on people gets more information about their alignment, and is generally a good thing to do if something is off there. The fact that it was a PR that was acting scummy and got pushed doesn't mean jack about the validity of the push, and Elements himself said that the points made against him were valid. This is not something you can hold against him like this.

His point is that you're townreading anyone who sided with you to kill Loop, and that is still pretty valid looking at your current readslist. Muh is actually a prime example of it in action, since you've said that Muh clearly had a reason to scumread Loop before your case pushed him into action, even though Muh never once put said reasoning out. It's altogether easy for anyone to say "Oh yeah, I totally believed this before your case", and I find it concerning that you just took him at his word.

I feel like this is the second (third?) post where someone takes Thespio's 2(two) points, makes an excuse for one, and then tries to validate the other through some strange jump in logic, with the landing being the assumption that if the second point is correct, the first one also is.

Let's fix this here and now.
1. Elements wasn't acting scummy. He said things that sounded scummy, but he wasn't acting scummy. I have a feeling someone isn't going to read the whole thing that I'm about to say, will take that first sentence, talk about how THEY THOUGHT elements was scummy and then consider my entire first point defeated, just because that's how most of these engagements have gone so far. Why you shouldn't do that, is because this point is completely and totally irrelevant of whether or not elements was acting scummy or not, Thespio's point against me was that I pushed town to lynch and that somehow makes me scummy. My point in return, is that he pushed two town players, and one of them was a PR, so calling me on this is dumb.

2. No, he's saying I'm scumreading anyone who disagreed with me, and that's an important distinction to make, because that's ACTUALLY wrong, and not just a correlation between my reads and what happened yesterday, as I previously pointed out.

The part two of point two here, is that you're ALSO wrong, because muh did provide reasoning for his read (spoilered later) and in addition, you're assuming that my town read is based on the fact that they agreed with me.

Ah, classic Loop. Stalling the game and trying to push another lynch just to survive another day. First he tried to push my lynch but that didn't go anywhere. As soon as he saw the opportunity of another possible wagon on Elements, he jumped on it immediately.

Its less about rushing anything and moreso HE LITERALLY SAYS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS HIM DEAD. THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST POST OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE: Elements Everything put together against loop, even from what i see is only a fraction of how skummy this post is.

Sure his post was scummy but I still don't see it as a basis for a lynch. Thespio, when you said you would rather self-lynch than have a NL, isn't that sort of the same situation? In that situation, you want town dead for information. In Elements situation, he also wants town dead for information. What separates the two?

Muh is another player to watch out for. OMGUS is a terrible reason to vote anyone this late in the day, especially when the source of that OMGUS is from really early in the day. He's a SE player. If he was a newbie I'd be more lenient given that new players tend to make that argument fairly often, but he should know better than to lean on OMGUS as a reason even if it's just "fuel on the fire". That's not even mentioning the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line which is just terrible.

I'd also expect him to know how to prodge better than 306, but that's admittedly not very AI. He would've been better off saying "This is a prodge. Loop is still scummy", as that would count as enough content to reset the prod timer instead of making one of the worst nitpicks I've seen this game though. I have to wonder if he couldn't find anything better to poke at or something.

What so terrible about the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line? I've noticed that both you and Loop are both hunting for excuses to jump on wagons. First you both did it with my comment about "If you so strongly feel you're town" and then subsequently did it with Elements post. I know Loop is trying to get the wagon off himself, but I feel like you've been pocketed by him and are trying to save him no matter what chance you get.

Nobody else commented on that except for you two which just goes to show how you both are trying to reach at whatever you can get so that this Loop lynch doesn't happen.

Regarding the second point, I was skimming through the game and saw it. I knew if I said "Loop is scum" he would've thrown a fit so I avoided that.

Which fights do you mean besides Elements?

Thespio is still at L-2 and we have no idea why. That wagon was lost between the main fight. Same for PvtUrist, there was some talks of PvtUrist scum but that didn't go anywhere.

If anybody is thinking of hammering, they should wait until after Pvt posts something useful.

Please don't let a hammer drop without allowing me one more post.

I have updated reads but I'd rather wait until there is an intent to hammer.

And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

This feels weird to me. It seems like you're just buying yourself time.

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

Your play in general and because I'm still OMGUSing you from you ignoring me in the beginning of the game. Your attitude didn't help either when Enter called you out. This is the attitude I'm talking about

pedit: Wow Loop. I thought you'd be better than this as an IC. The pity play is not making you look good man, just sayin'.

100% fair. I'll own this. I'll also probably never IC again. You'll see post-game that I really wanted to make this game a positive experience for newbies because we tend to lose them nowadays. But this game smacked me in the face with the reality that I shouldn't be doing this if I can't devote the time and effort to the game.

To me it comes across as trying to get town's sympathy and felt fake to me. I share Enter's points about flip-flop voting, sheeping, etc so I don't need to restate those.

Anyway, I don't think there's a point in starting up another wagon at this point. The main event in day 1 was Enter vs Loop and I want to see this battle go out to till the end.

The only thing I would add to that post is that scum!Loop would have self-hammered here before town starting looking past Loopdan-Enter.

Can you clarify this? Why would a scum player self-hammer?

Here's the thing: Everybody posting here recently is showing genuine-looking frustration.

Both scum are likely among the inactive players:
Munchmellow
Elements
Muh316
PvtUrist

There's an outside chance of scum!Thespio. I've been going back and forth on that these last pages but can't nail him down.

I'd still like responses to 477 and for the five players above to chime in before end of day. And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

Don't you think there's a higher chance of scum being from the players that are on your wagon if you so strongly feel that you're town?

Magik, I think you're being pocketed. Loop's sweet talk might be getting to you.

1. Munch disagreed with me on both Loop AND elements. This is what you get for skimming my ISO instead of actually reading it.
2. You're misrepping me and hiding behind "you're a jerk." Stop. That's not an excuse.

Hmm, I must have misread him, regardless your bottom 3 are all people who weren't with you, and you were wrong, why are all the people on your wagon town?

2. Dude im not hiding behind anything, cool you think its susp i didn't want to hammer someone that evolved. I agreed he looked scummy until he got into it with you, as soon as he did i felt he was town, elements who hid all game, while actively watching the game. He looked scum, and when i was on V/LA he began posting. I didn't even see his PR claim until D2 because it ended before i could review what happened. More importantly, blaming the people who picked him up as susp on d1 is stupid, If anything it puts us as town. Loop flipped town, we read him as town at the end of the day, so we looked at the next susp player. Anyone who votes someone they think is town with a ton of time remaining is acting against town. If I kept my vote there I would have seen myself as scum.


PEDIT, i read your whole post you dummy.

1) Someone who lurks, shows up to post, calls someone town and votes them. These are all scum attributes. Im not saying the number of town you push makes you bad, the number of town you kill makes you bad. I didnt get on elements because i suspected a potential power role to post scummy things. And like I said above in this post, I was on V/LA when he came out.

2)Muh echoed you, hard, look at your own ISO. Make sure you arent reading people because they agree with you or you will get pocketed. which is what i think is going to happen in this game, today you will push me/horse, skum will wagon with you Then tomorrow they will push the other with you. then we all lose because you couldnt criticize people who agree with you.

Actually stop saying things that are objectively wrong. Muh is in the bottom three (technically four) of my reads list. You can't just cherry pick what you want to read and ignore the facts.
Also I haven't pushed Magik today at all.
Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

And we got down to deadline w/ no lynch. Who was it yesterday who said they'd rather lynch themselves (conftown) than no lynch? Oh wait.

Your reasoning over calling me scummy because loop flipped town is only reasonable considering the fact that having less town players is worse for town. Under that same reasoning, pushing town players to claim PR and get NK'd is also worse for town. => Your reasoning here is dumb, please drop it.

1. Elements wasn't acting scummy. He said things that sounded scummy, but he wasn't acting scummy. I have a feeling someone isn't going to read the whole thing that I'm about to say, will take that first sentence, talk about how THEY THOUGHT elements was scummy and then consider my entire first point defeated, just because that's how most of these engagements have gone so far. Why you shouldn't do that, is because this point is completely and totally irrelevant of whether or not elements was acting scummy or not, Thespio's point against me was that I pushed town to lynch and that somehow makes me scummy. My point in return, is that he pushed two town players, and one of them was a PR, so calling me on this is dumb.

What else was anyone gonna do to get some outside information going on here? There was no other "scummy acting" going on besides the lurking squad that wasn't going to respond in a decent timeframe to make the push worthwhile, which is coincidentally why the Muh wagon broke up Day 1. You're putting the blame on him for taking the only available road to try and get some better information on other players, which is overall not cool.

No, what's not cool is pretending a town flip means everyone on the wagon was scummy. I don't know how you still don't get the point of this: I'm not calling Thesp scum because he pushed elements and loop. I'm saying Thesp's reasoning for calling me scum based solely on the fact that I was on loop's wagon when he flipped town is bad, and showing him in an example that is easily accessible why that is bad.

2. No, he's saying I'm scumreading anyone who disagreed with me, and that's an important distinction to make, because that's ACTUALLY wrong, and not just a correlation between my reads and what happened yesterday, as I previously pointed out.

The part two of point two here, is that you're ALSO wrong, because muh did provide reasoning for his read (spoilered later) and in addition, you're assuming that my town read is based on the fact that they agreed with me.

Muh's reason is a very, very lackluster "I think it looks fake" with no explanation on why and "I agree with Enter on top of that". That barely qualifies as an explanation given how vague and easy to make up it is. Had he actually explained why it "felt fake" I'd be inclined to agree with you on that.

Also, you have yet to give us any information to the contrary regarding your reads. With a lack of information for why you read people as you do, we must fill in the blanks with what we see, and that's exactly what it looks like from the outside perspective. You have only yourself to blame for that by not explaining your reads basically at all unless you're tunneling them.

Let me get this straight: You are drawing assumptions instead of asking questions, and you're blaming me for your failure? How does this add up for you?

I'm not discussing muh right now, because if I do I'll be biased to TR him based solely on the fact that I'm in the middle of an argument with both of you, and you continuously misrepresent and fail to understand the points of my case. Once we have this worked out, I'm more willing to approach my reads from a place of dispassion and I'm less likely to put them somewhere other than where they really are.

Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

Elements with this string of posts, although he technically voted Loop and then called him Town, not the other way around:

post 562 seems utterly irrelevant to anything. Can people stop letting loopdan waste time and lynch him VOTE: loopdan

i don't think you're scum.

I think you are town

but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

this was poorly worded it sould've been: "

i think loopdan is town

, but his lynch will tell us the most information"

The wagon came shortly thereafter.

Oh I see what you're getting at. I disagree that that was scummy, but p sure we had that discussion before.

Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

Elements did:

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

This was his post after voting loopdan in post 163

I agree that you just being on the wagon doesnt make you scum, i do think like i said that the majority of your scum (as you pointed out there was 1 outlier) are all the people who didnt want to kill town. Why in gods green earth wouldnt i just have agreed with you as scum, you have a loud voice, your posts are walls, scum imo would want you pocketed, or want you to think they were in your pocket. seriously do the math, 2 of the 7 of us are bad, so only 5 town, scum would have spent most of yesterday preparing to ML today. so loopdans ML is where we should start, that makes horse town (admittedly this makes my munch read wrong) Munch town, im obv town. RCE is still in deep shit from their predecessor and they didnt vote to save town they just didnt vote at all.

Wait let me get this straight: Your argument is that scum guaranteed did not vote loopdan? LOL

Let's go down the list of reasons you didn't hammer:
1. WK points
2. Scummy quickhammers
3. Dragging out day for town points = more town points
4. Looked like loop would get lynched anyways and you'd get points for not being on it.

Now let's talk about how it's super funny that this reasoning appears out of thin air after we've been in day two for a while and it completely flips your munch read, but it makes so much sense to you? Lol

Oh I see what you're getting at. I disagree that that was scummy, but p sure we had that discussion before.

So if i said "Enter I think you are town" and voted you, that would make you tr me?

We already had this discussion. I can quote myself at you, or you can read my ISO. Either way, he didn't just say "loopdan I think you're town" and vote him. Pls stop cherry picking your arguments.

Ultimately elements was a mistake, but his string of posts was the most scum filled thing i had seen all game, loops activity made me see them as town, prior when they were avoiding confrontation i saw your point. So when i see yesterday, with the 5 of you on loop, 2 of those 5 ruled out (horse because he was on elements for legit reasons, and elements being dead, it leaves the remaining 3 as susp.

WTF are you misrepping here?

I didnt hammer because i wasnt online, when i posted intent i didnt get back on until he was dead. Im running theories here, your wagon contained scum. PERIOD. you are now in my bottom two because i miss read munch. so you are my first suspect.

and yes, i know he didnt in the same post, but he called him town, voted him, then called him town again. can you literally stop tunnelling and objectively evaluate your wagon? or is that to hard, at this point ignoring you progresses this game more then interacting with you. you arent building you are muddying the game.

Good. Vote me please.

First I want to get some things straight real quick tho:
1. The fact that elements was a mistake IS THE POINT. Loopdan was also a mistake, and the fact that you excuse elements but not loop is what I'm pointing out as flawed.
2. You've been misrepping me and "muddying the game" since I scumread you a couple posts ago, which is the same thing you did the last time I scumread you.
3. There is no wagon on you, stop using buzzwords to sound like you know what you're talking about.
4. Your argument is that loopdan flipped town => there was scum on his wagon. But what I'm trying to get you to realize, is that if Elements wasn't a PR, he also would have flipped town, and loopdan wouldn't have flipped at all. And you would be scumreading an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SET OF PEOPLE. Someone even dropped an intent to hammer on elements.

I'm pointing out how absolutely DEVOID OF LOGIC your argument is and you're calling me scum and misrepping me.

Also out of curiosity, what is it that you think that I'm misrepping you on?

You cant take any pressure, you get all flustered, feel like you are being misrepped which you arent. shitpost with stuff like this:

Wait let me get this straight: Your argument is that scum guaranteed did not vote loopdan? LOL

Let's go down the list of reasons you didn't hammer:
1. WK points
2. Scummy quickhammers
3. Dragging out day for town points = more town points
4. Looked like loop would get lynched anyways and you'd get points for not being on it.

which isnt even anything to do with my post.

M8 chill, im being objective, i didnt tunnel someone into oblivion, and even while questioning you notice i still have someone i suspect more. Ill grant you it might have been a mistake, but you still miss the mark everywhere else.

LOL who can't take pressure? I voted you and you reacted like this:

"we arent gonna have you tunnel one guy."

As far as reading you for different reasons, pretty sure you agreed with me that something was wrong with the loopdan read, so OMGUSing me for approaching my other reads differently is also dumb. Stop.

I did agree but you never progressed beyond that, you didnt push anyone else, when we have 4 active players (you, me, loopdan, and Horse) its hard to actually get accurate reads on anyone. Also the fact you see RCE as scum and me as scum confirms to me that you only scumread people who dont agree with you. You attacked Horse for the same thing, notice your reads, you put him at the bottom. I think everyone ought to seriously look at the fact you hard tunneled a townie yesterday and now you are trying to put shade on anyone who resisted or didnt vote your way. Its not missrepping when you literally post it

Rough draft:

Town

Skellen
Munch
Thespio/Muh
===
Magik
RCE

Scum

This is weird for me cuz I think there's prolly only one scum between Magik/RCE, but that's where I sit atm.

Oh dang there it is. You putting the people who didnt shift. Beyond that your reason for lynching me is that im omgusing, except im not, ive not voted you im reading your iso. i can summarize it:

Tunnels Loopdan
interacts with me (still tunnelling loopdan)
Tunnels Loopdan
Attacks Horse (still tunnelling loopdan)
Lynches Loopdan
Loopdan flips green
Puts everyone who was off loopdan or was hesitant to vote loop on their scum list.


I just want to know why you think scum werent on your wagon, and im not TR RCE you are just the most obvscum right now, FOS on Enter.

And yeah, it does have to do with your post, you said

Why in gods green earth wouldnt i just have agreed with you as scum

Please actually chill and pay attention

The first bit of 1066 is already being discussed between the two of you, so I'm cutting that piece out since it's no longer relevant.

Let me get this straight: You are drawing assumptions instead of asking questions, and you're blaming me for your failure? How does this add up for you?

Nice loaded question, but that doesn't do much to change the fact that you can't expect us to be able to read your mind. If you don't explain things you're just leaving yourself open to interpretation, which is your own consequence of not explaining them.

Take a moment if you need to to get over the arguments you've just been in/are still in, then please enlighten us on your reasoning instead of just tossing blame at us for misunderstanding your unexplained reads. That's honestly a better way to kill that off as an argument than arguing the validity of filling in your holes.

I'm not asking you to read my mind, I'm asking you to ask questions if you have them, because I, also, cannot read your mind and know what you need/want more information on.

There is no wagon on you, stop using buzzwords to sound like you know what you're talking about.

dude you hard core were fishing for wagons, you popped your vote down, saw someone vote me, and voted me because reasons. XD you are so anti town that if you arent scum you should re-evaluate your play style.

Lol . So now you're assuming every time someone puts down a vote, they're "fishing for wagons?" What even is that?
And regardless, that doesn't change the fact that there is STILL no wagon on you, which makes what you said STILL wrong.

Also, I thought I was your primary target? Why is your vote still not on me?

Finally, I'm "anti town" because I put votes on people that I think are scummy? Please explain yourself more here, because I'm not the person that has been misrepresenting people all of day two.

Spoiler: me "fishing for wagons"

Right so for loopdan you had 'condemning evidence' for me your gut is guiding you? Im getting ready to my reads with a little more content, maybe that will help/hurt your opinion of me. Honestly rereading loopdans interactions you read kind of scummy, I saw your push as town, but that flip hurt you in my mind, your attitude was cocky and you werent willing to look at anyone else, then we come into D2 and you are upset i ask you for more reads and tell you not to tunnel.

You're misrepping me right now, and this is a big reason you're a scum read. Because you regularly do scummy things like this.

I didn't get upset that you asked me for reads. Pretty sure I made that pretty clear.
I also wasn't upset that you asked me to stop tunneling people - you never did that, and you also agreed that I shouldn't stop tunneling people, so you know this, too, is wrong.

I was upset because you acted like you had some sort of control over my play "we arent gonna have you tunnel one guy."

As far as reading you for different reasons, pretty sure you agreed with me that something was wrong with the loopdan read, so OMGUSing me for approaching my other reads differently is also dumb. Stop.

I honestly could see an RCE/Thespio scumteam RN.

1. That's not true. Munch disagreed with everything I said yesterday, and you actually agreed with me for the first part.
2. It is misrepping me, show me where I posted that I was upset that you told me not to tunnel/asked me for more reads. Show me how I got upset about that. Cuz I guarantee this is not me being upset about reads:

You and Magik are funny like this, acting like you have any control whatsoever about how I proceed with the gameday or like I have any intention of going through another loopdan situation again. Not to be an ass, but I don't care if I have your approval for anything I do. I'd really like to see more involvement from you, too. Pretty much anything past surface level reads and bad implementation of game theory/ generally too scummy to be scum behavior.

It's not even me being upset about you thinking tunnels are dumb. It's me being upset about you saying "you aren't gonna do this."

And quit with the FOS crap. Put your vote on me and quit sitting on the fence. And again, that's not how my reads worked, you're assuming a position for me and then attacking that instead of responding to what I'm actually saying.

This is another reason you're scummy, you're going to try and get me all riled up by responding w/ OMGUS, and when that doesn't work (again) you're going to be like "this is TvT" (again) and then assume everyone will townread you.

I can case you later but you've done a load of scummy stuff this game.

I'm still disinclined to believe that scum!Enter would do such a massive deathtunnel and draw so much attention to himself Day 1 knowing that Loop would flip town. That doesn't really make his play good, since it definitely hasn't been most of the game, but his motivations aren't reading sour to me as much as overly eager to case people instead of thinking everything through.

This was my initial thought, but the fact he lynched based on his own sense of logic D1 and now is fishing for wagons D2 to me seems utterly susp. Also why would he defend munch? is it not normal to say you made a mistake and look at the people who did too (intentionally or not?) The fact his wagon is all town but they lynched a townie is super sketchy to me.

LOL. Two things:
1. You pushed loop.
2. You pushed elements.

You pushed one more town wagon than I did. You pushed a PR to the point of claiming. "the fact they lynched a townie is super sketchy" actually wtf.

1. Munch agreed with you and hes near the top of your town list. Point made.
2. Any time you have to say "Not to be an Ass" its you being an ass. Unless you are naturally an ass (which I interacted with you and thought you werent) it tends to be because of emotional turmoil.


2.5 IM NOT VOTING YOU BECAUSE I WANT TO LOOK AT MUNCH AND RCE. You getting on me seemed off though which is the purpose of my post, you arent my first or second pick, but the guys i want arent engaging with me or in munches case interacting with anyone because they are opportunistically posting.

Thats where I am at.

1. Munch disagreed with me on both Loop AND elements. This is what you get for skimming my ISO instead of actually reading it.
2. You're misrepping me and hiding behind "you're a jerk." Stop. That's not an excuse.

You pushed a PR to the point of claiming. "the fact they lynched a townie is super sketchy" actually wtf.

Let me just stop this right there. As I said in my response to Muh pushing on people gets more information about their alignment, and is generally a good thing to do if something is off there. The fact that it was a PR that was acting scummy and got pushed doesn't mean jack about the validity of the push, and Elements himself said that the points made against him were valid. This is not something you can hold against him like this.

His point is that you're townreading anyone who sided with you to kill Loop, and that is still pretty valid looking at your current readslist. Muh is actually a prime example of it in action, since you've said that Muh clearly had a reason to scumread Loop before your case pushed him into action, even though Muh never once put said reasoning out. It's altogether easy for anyone to say "Oh yeah, I totally believed this before your case", and I find it concerning that you just took him at his word.

I feel like this is the second (third?) post where someone takes Thespio's 2(two) points, makes an excuse for one, and then tries to validate the other through some strange jump in logic, with the landing being the assumption that if the second point is correct, the first one also is.

Let's fix this here and now.
1. Elements wasn't acting scummy. He said things that sounded scummy, but he wasn't acting scummy. I have a feeling someone isn't going to read the whole thing that I'm about to say, will take that first sentence, talk about how THEY THOUGHT elements was scummy and then consider my entire first point defeated, just because that's how most of these engagements have gone so far. Why you shouldn't do that, is because this point is completely and totally irrelevant of whether or not elements was acting scummy or not, Thespio's point against me was that I pushed town to lynch and that somehow makes me scummy. My point in return, is that he pushed two town players, and one of them was a PR, so calling me on this is dumb.

2. No, he's saying I'm scumreading anyone who disagreed with me, and that's an important distinction to make, because that's ACTUALLY wrong, and not just a correlation between my reads and what happened yesterday, as I previously pointed out.

The part two of point two here, is that you're ALSO wrong, because muh did provide reasoning for his read (spoilered later) and in addition, you're assuming that my town read is based on the fact that they agreed with me.

Ah, classic Loop. Stalling the game and trying to push another lynch just to survive another day. First he tried to push my lynch but that didn't go anywhere. As soon as he saw the opportunity of another possible wagon on Elements, he jumped on it immediately.

Its less about rushing anything and moreso HE LITERALLY SAYS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS HIM DEAD. THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST POST OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE: Elements Everything put together against loop, even from what i see is only a fraction of how skummy this post is.

Sure his post was scummy but I still don't see it as a basis for a lynch. Thespio, when you said you would rather self-lynch than have a NL, isn't that sort of the same situation? In that situation, you want town dead for information. In Elements situation, he also wants town dead for information. What separates the two?

Muh is another player to watch out for. OMGUS is a terrible reason to vote anyone this late in the day, especially when the source of that OMGUS is from really early in the day. He's a SE player. If he was a newbie I'd be more lenient given that new players tend to make that argument fairly often, but he should know better than to lean on OMGUS as a reason even if it's just "fuel on the fire". That's not even mentioning the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line which is just terrible.

I'd also expect him to know how to prodge better than 306, but that's admittedly not very AI. He would've been better off saying "This is a prodge. Loop is still scummy", as that would count as enough content to reset the prod timer instead of making one of the worst nitpicks I've seen this game though. I have to wonder if he couldn't find anything better to poke at or something.

What so terrible about the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line? I've noticed that both you and Loop are both hunting for excuses to jump on wagons. First you both did it with my comment about "If you so strongly feel you're town" and then subsequently did it with Elements post. I know Loop is trying to get the wagon off himself, but I feel like you've been pocketed by him and are trying to save him no matter what chance you get.

Nobody else commented on that except for you two which just goes to show how you both are trying to reach at whatever you can get so that this Loop lynch doesn't happen.

Regarding the second point, I was skimming through the game and saw it. I knew if I said "Loop is scum" he would've thrown a fit so I avoided that.

Which fights do you mean besides Elements?

Thespio is still at L-2 and we have no idea why. That wagon was lost between the main fight. Same for PvtUrist, there was some talks of PvtUrist scum but that didn't go anywhere.

If anybody is thinking of hammering, they should wait until after Pvt posts something useful.

Please don't let a hammer drop without allowing me one more post.

I have updated reads but I'd rather wait until there is an intent to hammer.

And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

This feels weird to me. It seems like you're just buying yourself time.

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

Your play in general and because I'm still OMGUSing you from you ignoring me in the beginning of the game. Your attitude didn't help either when Enter called you out. This is the attitude I'm talking about

pedit: Wow Loop. I thought you'd be better than this as an IC. The pity play is not making you look good man, just sayin'.

100% fair. I'll own this. I'll also probably never IC again. You'll see post-game that I really wanted to make this game a positive experience for newbies because we tend to lose them nowadays. But this game smacked me in the face with the reality that I shouldn't be doing this if I can't devote the time and effort to the game.

To me it comes across as trying to get town's sympathy and felt fake to me. I share Enter's points about flip-flop voting, sheeping, etc so I don't need to restate those.

Anyway, I don't think there's a point in starting up another wagon at this point. The main event in day 1 was Enter vs Loop and I want to see this battle go out to till the end.

The only thing I would add to that post is that scum!Loop would have self-hammered here before town starting looking past Loopdan-Enter.

Can you clarify this? Why would a scum player self-hammer?

Here's the thing: Everybody posting here recently is showing genuine-looking frustration.

Both scum are likely among the inactive players:
Munchmellow
Elements
Muh316
PvtUrist

There's an outside chance of scum!Thespio. I've been going back and forth on that these last pages but can't nail him down.

I'd still like responses to 477 and for the five players above to chime in before end of day. And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

Don't you think there's a higher chance of scum being from the players that are on your wagon if you so strongly feel that you're town?

Magik, I think you're being pocketed. Loop's sweet talk might be getting to you.

1. Munch disagreed with me on both Loop AND elements. This is what you get for skimming my ISO instead of actually reading it.
2. You're misrepping me and hiding behind "you're a jerk." Stop. That's not an excuse.

Hmm, I must have misread him, regardless your bottom 3 are all people who weren't with you, and you were wrong, why are all the people on your wagon town?

2. Dude im not hiding behind anything, cool you think its susp i didn't want to hammer someone that evolved. I agreed he looked scummy until he got into it with you, as soon as he did i felt he was town, elements who hid all game, while actively watching the game. He looked scum, and when i was on V/LA he began posting. I didn't even see his PR claim until D2 because it ended before i could review what happened. More importantly, blaming the people who picked him up as susp on d1 is stupid, If anything it puts us as town. Loop flipped town, we read him as town at the end of the day, so we looked at the next susp player. Anyone who votes someone they think is town with a ton of time remaining is acting against town. If I kept my vote there I would have seen myself as scum.


PEDIT, i read your whole post you dummy.

1) Someone who lurks, shows up to post, calls someone town and votes them. These are all scum attributes. Im not saying the number of town you push makes you bad, the number of town you kill makes you bad. I didnt get on elements because i suspected a potential power role to post scummy things. And like I said above in this post, I was on V/LA when he came out.

2)Muh echoed you, hard, look at your own ISO. Make sure you arent reading people because they agree with you or you will get pocketed. which is what i think is going to happen in this game, today you will push me/horse, skum will wagon with you Then tomorrow they will push the other with you. then we all lose because you couldnt criticize people who agree with you.

Actually stop saying things that are objectively wrong. Muh is in the bottom three (technically four) of my reads list. You can't just cherry pick what you want to read and ignore the facts.
Also I haven't pushed Magik today at all.
Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

And we got down to deadline w/ no lynch. Who was it yesterday who said they'd rather lynch themselves (conftown) than no lynch? Oh wait.

Your reasoning over calling me scummy because loop flipped town is only reasonable considering the fact that having less town players is worse for town. Under that same reasoning, pushing town players to claim PR and get NK'd is also worse for town. => Your reasoning here is dumb, please drop it.

1. Elements wasn't acting scummy. He said things that sounded scummy, but he wasn't acting scummy. I have a feeling someone isn't going to read the whole thing that I'm about to say, will take that first sentence, talk about how THEY THOUGHT elements was scummy and then consider my entire first point defeated, just because that's how most of these engagements have gone so far. Why you shouldn't do that, is because this point is completely and totally irrelevant of whether or not elements was acting scummy or not, Thespio's point against me was that I pushed town to lynch and that somehow makes me scummy. My point in return, is that he pushed two town players, and one of them was a PR, so calling me on this is dumb.

What else was anyone gonna do to get some outside information going on here? There was no other "scummy acting" going on besides the lurking squad that wasn't going to respond in a decent timeframe to make the push worthwhile, which is coincidentally why the Muh wagon broke up Day 1. You're putting the blame on him for taking the only available road to try and get some better information on other players, which is overall not cool.

No, what's not cool is pretending a town flip means everyone on the wagon was scummy. I don't know how you still don't get the point of this: I'm not calling Thesp scum because he pushed elements and loop. I'm saying Thesp's reasoning for calling me scum based solely on the fact that I was on loop's wagon when he flipped town is bad, and showing him in an example that is easily accessible why that is bad.

2. No, he's saying I'm scumreading anyone who disagreed with me, and that's an important distinction to make, because that's ACTUALLY wrong, and not just a correlation between my reads and what happened yesterday, as I previously pointed out.

The part two of point two here, is that you're ALSO wrong, because muh did provide reasoning for his read (spoilered later) and in addition, you're assuming that my town read is based on the fact that they agreed with me.

Muh's reason is a very, very lackluster "I think it looks fake" with no explanation on why and "I agree with Enter on top of that". That barely qualifies as an explanation given how vague and easy to make up it is. Had he actually explained why it "felt fake" I'd be inclined to agree with you on that.

Also, you have yet to give us any information to the contrary regarding your reads. With a lack of information for why you read people as you do, we must fill in the blanks with what we see, and that's exactly what it looks like from the outside perspective. You have only yourself to blame for that by not explaining your reads basically at all unless you're tunneling them.

Let me get this straight: You are drawing assumptions instead of asking questions, and you're blaming me for your failure? How does this add up for you?

I'm not discussing muh right now, because if I do I'll be biased to TR him based solely on the fact that I'm in the middle of an argument with both of you, and you continuously misrepresent and fail to understand the points of my case. Once we have this worked out, I'm more willing to approach my reads from a place of dispassion and I'm less likely to put them somewhere other than where they really are.

Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

Elements with this string of posts, although he technically voted Loop and then called him Town, not the other way around:

post 562 seems utterly irrelevant to anything. Can people stop letting loopdan waste time and lynch him VOTE: loopdan

i don't think you're scum.

I think you are town

but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

this was poorly worded it sould've been: "

i think loopdan is town

, but his lynch will tell us the most information"

The wagon came shortly thereafter.

Oh I see what you're getting at. I disagree that that was scummy, but p sure we had that discussion before.

Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

Elements did:

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

This was his post after voting loopdan in post 163

I agree that you just being on the wagon doesnt make you scum, i do think like i said that the majority of your scum (as you pointed out there was 1 outlier) are all the people who didnt want to kill town. Why in gods green earth wouldnt i just have agreed with you as scum, you have a loud voice, your posts are walls, scum imo would want you pocketed, or want you to think they were in your pocket. seriously do the math, 2 of the 7 of us are bad, so only 5 town, scum would have spent most of yesterday preparing to ML today. so loopdans ML is where we should start, that makes horse town (admittedly this makes my munch read wrong) Munch town, im obv town. RCE is still in deep shit from their predecessor and they didnt vote to save town they just didnt vote at all.

Wait let me get this straight: Your argument is that scum guaranteed did not vote loopdan? LOL

Let's go down the list of reasons you didn't hammer:
1. WK points
2. Scummy quickhammers
3. Dragging out day for town points = more town points
4. Looked like loop would get lynched anyways and you'd get points for not being on it.

Now let's talk about how it's super funny that this reasoning appears out of thin air after we've been in day two for a while and it completely flips your munch read, but it makes so much sense to you? Lol

Oh I see what you're getting at. I disagree that that was scummy, but p sure we had that discussion before.

So if i said "Enter I think you are town" and voted you, that would make you tr me?

We already had this discussion. I can quote myself at you, or you can read my ISO. Either way, he didn't just say "loopdan I think you're town" and vote him. Pls stop cherry picking your arguments.

Ultimately elements was a mistake, but his string of posts was the most scum filled thing i had seen all game, loops activity made me see them as town, prior when they were avoiding confrontation i saw your point. So when i see yesterday, with the 5 of you on loop, 2 of those 5 ruled out (horse because he was on elements for legit reasons, and elements being dead, it leaves the remaining 3 as susp.

WTF are you misrepping here?

I didnt hammer because i wasnt online, when i posted intent i didnt get back on until he was dead. Im running theories here, your wagon contained scum. PERIOD. you are now in my bottom two because i miss read munch. so you are my first suspect.

and yes, i know he didnt in the same post, but he called him town, voted him, then called him town again. can you literally stop tunnelling and objectively evaluate your wagon? or is that to hard, at this point ignoring you progresses this game more then interacting with you. you arent building you are muddying the game.

Good. Vote me please.

First I want to get some things straight real quick tho:
1. The fact that elements was a mistake IS THE POINT. Loopdan was also a mistake, and the fact that you excuse elements but not loop is what I'm pointing out as flawed.
2. You've been misrepping me and "muddying the game" since I scumread you a couple posts ago, which is the same thing you did the last time I scumread you.
3. There is no wagon on you, stop using buzzwords to sound like you know what you're talking about.
4. Your argument is that loopdan flipped town => there was scum on his wagon. But what I'm trying to get you to realize, is that if Elements wasn't a PR, he also would have flipped town, and loopdan wouldn't have flipped at all. And you would be scumreading an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SET OF PEOPLE. Someone even dropped an intent to hammer on elements.

I'm pointing out how absolutely DEVOID OF LOGIC your argument is and you're calling me scum and misrepping me.

Also out of curiosity, what is it that you think that I'm misrepping you on?

You cant take any pressure, you get all flustered, feel like you are being misrepped which you arent. shitpost with stuff like this:

Wait let me get this straight: Your argument is that scum guaranteed did not vote loopdan? LOL

Let's go down the list of reasons you didn't hammer:
1. WK points
2. Scummy quickhammers
3. Dragging out day for town points = more town points
4. Looked like loop would get lynched anyways and you'd get points for not being on it.

which isnt even anything to do with my post.

M8 chill, im being objective, i didnt tunnel someone into oblivion, and even while questioning you notice i still have someone i suspect more. Ill grant you it might have been a mistake, but you still miss the mark everywhere else.

LOL who can't take pressure? I voted you and you reacted like this:

"we arent gonna have you tunnel one guy."

As far as reading you for different reasons, pretty sure you agreed with me that something was wrong with the loopdan read, so OMGUSing me for approaching my other reads differently is also dumb. Stop.

I did agree but you never progressed beyond that, you didnt push anyone else, when we have 4 active players (you, me, loopdan, and Horse) its hard to actually get accurate reads on anyone. Also the fact you see RCE as scum and me as scum confirms to me that you only scumread people who dont agree with you. You attacked Horse for the same thing, notice your reads, you put him at the bottom. I think everyone ought to seriously look at the fact you hard tunneled a townie yesterday and now you are trying to put shade on anyone who resisted or didnt vote your way. Its not missrepping when you literally post it

Rough draft:

Town

Skellen
Munch
Thespio/Muh
===
Magik
RCE

Scum

This is weird for me cuz I think there's prolly only one scum between Magik/RCE, but that's where I sit atm.

Oh dang there it is. You putting the people who didnt shift. Beyond that your reason for lynching me is that im omgusing, except im not, ive not voted you im reading your iso. i can summarize it:

Tunnels Loopdan
interacts with me (still tunnelling loopdan)
Tunnels Loopdan
Attacks Horse (still tunnelling loopdan)
Lynches Loopdan
Loopdan flips green
Puts everyone who was off loopdan or was hesitant to vote loop on their scum list.


I just want to know why you think scum werent on your wagon, and im not TR RCE you are just the most obvscum right now, FOS on Enter.

And yeah, it does have to do with your post, you said

Why in gods green earth wouldnt i just have agreed with you as scum

Please actually chill and pay attention

The first bit of 1066 is already being discussed between the two of you, so I'm cutting that piece out since it's no longer relevant.

Let me get this straight: You are drawing assumptions instead of asking questions, and you're blaming me for your failure? How does this add up for you?

Nice loaded question, but that doesn't do much to change the fact that you can't expect us to be able to read your mind. If you don't explain things you're just leaving yourself open to interpretation, which is your own consequence of not explaining them.

Take a moment if you need to to get over the arguments you've just been in/are still in, then please enlighten us on your reasoning instead of just tossing blame at us for misunderstanding your unexplained reads. That's honestly a better way to kill that off as an argument than arguing the validity of filling in your holes.

I'm not asking you to read my mind, I'm asking you to ask questions if you have them, because I, also, cannot read your mind and know what you need/want more information on.

There is no wagon on you, stop using buzzwords to sound like you know what you're talking about.

dude you hard core were fishing for wagons, you popped your vote down, saw someone vote me, and voted me because reasons. XD you are so anti town that if you arent scum you should re-evaluate your play style.

Lol . So now you're assuming every time someone puts down a vote, they're "fishing for wagons?" What even is that?
And regardless, that doesn't change the fact that there is STILL no wagon on you, which makes what you said STILL wrong.

Also, I thought I was your primary target? Why is your vote still not on me?

Finally, I'm "anti town" because I put votes on people that I think are scummy? Please explain yourself more here, because I'm not the person that has been misrepresenting people all of day two.

[Enter]

The worst part of this is the fact that this whole time Magik could be helping, but I get the feeling he doesn't like me so he'd rather watch me flounder for words with Thespio and argue semantics an attempts at moral high ground than actually fix this situation, and in the meantime Thespio is sitting here making arguments for me being scum and I can't even get to why I disagree with his arguments because the basis behind his arguments are inherently flawed.

To top it all off I have the same dilemma today that I had yesterday w/ Loopdan: Does bad play excuse scummy play?

[MagikHorse]

Yeah, no dice Enter. Telling me to take his words and put them in a certain way only manipulates the result. That wouldn't be my case at all, nor would it be his. That's aside from the fact that I'm already having difficulties understanding everything going on in this muddy mess, and I'd rather not waste my time trying.

As I said you're both flipping out here, and I don't think either side is truly listening to the other fully.

[Enter]

Yeah, no dice Enter. Telling me to take his words and put them in a certain way only manipulates the result. That wouldn't be my case at all, nor would it be his. That's aside from the fact that I'm already having difficulties understanding everything going on in this muddy mess, and I'd rather not waste my time trying.

As I said you're both flipping out here, and I don't think either side is truly listening to the other fully.

Yeah. The worst part is I'm tempted to TR him, but I hate positively responding to emotional outbursts like that or even encouraging discussions to be had in the manner we just had it.

I feel like people are looking to me to lead town again today (and maybe I'm off in this) but I really honestly don't want to after yesterday. I don't feel strongly in any of my reads, I can give basic explanations for them later, but my Thespio push is an attempt to sort. I was kind of hoping to see someone else take an angle on this and push it somewhere that made sense.

[Thespio]

Oh i see where the communication failed. I dont think that makes you someone fishing for wagons. Also not sure why the mod said that RCE was right about a vote being on me if they didnt actually vote me. but whatever. maybe i misunderstood it, saw you jump your vote and your reason wasnt really a reason. That to me looked like an opportunistic, fishing for wagons. Then your reaction seemed super antagonistic and survivalist and you had no votes which seemed off. Can we look at RCE now? you arent my #1 he is, and honestly now that i understand what you were talking about i wouldn't say you are in my bottom two anymore.

Were on better grounds in my mind, sorry about the doubt, i stand by that some evil bastard was on your wagon. perhaps PVT being afk is why they didnt hammer.

[MagikHorse]

Yeah. The worst part is I'm tempted to TR him, but I hate positively responding to emotional outbursts like that or even encouraging discussions to be had in the manner we just had it.

I feel like people are looking to me to lead town again today (and maybe I'm off in this) but I really honestly don't want to after yesterday. I don't feel strongly in any of my reads, I can give basic explanations for them later, but my Thespio push is an attempt to sort. I was kind of hoping to see someone else take an angle on this and push it somewhere that made sense.

Yeah, I don't think anybody really wants you to lead town today after yesterday. It's very true that another push like that will likely decimate Town's chances of ever winning this game, and just the one day we've finished has kind of left the town in a state of nullisms and weak cases since people didn't get sorted properly throughout Day 1.

Still, I think that both of you are town and this shakeup doesn't really affect that even if I really don't like you (as you correctly surmised).

[Enter]

Oh i see where the communication failed. I dont think that makes you someone fishing for wagons. Also not sure why the mod said that RCE was right about a vote being on me if they didnt actually vote me. but whatever. maybe i misunderstood it, saw you jump your vote and your reason wasnt really a reason. That to me looked like an opportunistic, fishing for wagons. Then your reaction seemed super antagonistic and survivalist and you had no votes which seemed off. Can we look at RCE now? you arent my #1 he is, and honestly now that i understand what you were talking about i wouldn't say you are in my bottom two anymore.

Were on better grounds in my mind, sorry about the doubt, i stand by that some evil bastard was on your wagon. perhaps PVT being afk is why they didnt hammer.

Yeah we can talk about RCE. I agree he's my #1 as well.

[Enter]

I think I feel better about Thesp town now.

VOTE: RCE

[Thespio]

VOTE: RCE

[Skellen]

Don't mind me, just trying to catch up with the game and to reply to some ancient posts here. I hate timezones.

I'll go over the final wagons a bit later, skellen do your questions still stand?

If you have nothing to complain about my conclusions regarding the Munch thing, then no, I think it should have answered my questions. It's a nice approach but it doesn't make so me certain as it seems to do with you.

I'm not going to announce what I'm going to attack, that would be weird. How would you have preferred I call out Magik?

Huh, but you did in #1002? But that wasn't even the point I was hinting to. I thought your vote on Magik was coming out of nowhere because of what I got from your posts from the first day the logical approach for you should be to look over the Loop wagon as you kind of implied that there should be the highest chance to find a scum among the Loop voters if Loop is town in #490. Going by that statement shouldn't it have been your top priority to examine the wagon since Loop flipped as town? Apparently it was important enough to you to complain in #525 that Loop didn't do that, although he did that, just he only scumread you of the people on the Loop wagon.

Yet your first Day 2 action is to look for people who were not on the Loop wagon. Oh yes, you mentioned Thespio (I count him because he was also on the original Loop wagon who put Loop to L-1 for the first time), but basically it was "So many posts, can't read him, null". Well, that effort tells everything. At least you townread Enter again, but considering that you held it against Loop you seem rather slack in that regard.

Magik doesn't count as he made it pretty clear why he was voting Loop at the end of the day. You even confirmed it yourself that it was the preferred option than starting another wagon, but Magik called you already out on that if I remember correctly.

Munch is confirmed scum now that elements and Loop have both flipped town, I'll go back over why on one of my breaks when I've got a bit of time.

I didn't really see much on Munch from you after this. You just began targeting me.

What do you mean here? RCE wasn't even talking much about you after this (I think two posts at most), instead more about Munch and his wagon theories.
I agree on your points about RCE though.

[Thespio]

@skellen does a RCE/Muh team feel probable?

[Skellen]

On to Munch's posts.

It doesn't work with Magik, I don't think they're double bussing. RCE also seemes unlikely (considering Muh's theory, RCE is second scum...). I think it would work with Thespio - in 158 Muh commemts that Thespios self-sacrificing post was suspicious but that he thinks town does that. There are some more posts, where Muh states athespio did sth wierd/suspicious, but never scumreads him and is later asking why is Thespio still on L-2. They were also both on Loop's wagon, so if you consider 2on wagon theory, it would explain why scum didn't hammer Loop sooner.

I disagree about RCE being an unlikely partner for muh. Muh and RCE bark at each other, but they haven't bitten each other yet. Like when RCE implied he would have preferred a muh lynch, just to go after you the next day, but still keeps muh warm. Same with muh now on Day 2, just that he targets Magik over RCE. This looks like they are carefully burning all bridges between them, knowing that it could become difficult for one of them, maybe even both during Day 2.

I had similar thoughts about muh/Thespio. He always brings Thespio up during this game, but without any consequence, he just does it.

Also agree about your opinion about persuading Magik today or not. While I have Magik also only on neutral/town lean for me, it's also mostly because of the paranoia that he abused his late entry to play this "White knight" move to look as a good townie. I have the feeling that fear is what is driving most of us in regards to Magik. But I also think that this is a matter that might be easier to resolve on later day(s). The same applies to Enter. It is not impossible for them to be scum, but I think we might get a better chance to get them (if one of them is scum) with catching their partner first.

Possible partners - Magik (muh's case 1025) there is nothing in their interaction, that would make this impossible
Thespio - PVT's start makes this unlikely
Muh - unlikely as stated in my "Muh post".

That is the one thing that I am struggling with concerning RCE. He is running out of possible scum partners. At this point muh seems to be the only one who does really fit to him. Well, maybe Magik, but I have to reread if such a constellation could work. Unless scum-RCE has decided to to cover all tracks that could lead to his partner (but that would make you more suspicious), but since he did it that early with voting you I doubt it, it wasn't that predictable that a good number of townies might turn against him.

[Skellen]

@skellen does a RCE/Muh team feel probable?

Ah, speak of the devil. I think I answered it with my recent post.

[Thespio]

@skellen does a RCE/Muh team feel probable?

Ah, speak of the devil. I think I answered it with my recent post.

great minds.

[RCEnigma]

Yeah, no dice Enter. Telling me to take his words and put them in a certain way only manipulates the result. That wouldn't be my case at all, nor would it be his. That's aside from the fact that I'm already having difficulties understanding everything going on in this muddy mess, and I'd rather not waste my time trying.

As I said you're both flipping out here, and I don't think either side is truly listening to the other fully.

Yeah. The worst part is I'm tempted to TR him, but I hate positively responding to emotional outbursts like that or even encouraging discussions to be had in the manner we just had it.

I feel like people are looking to me to lead town again today (and maybe I'm off in this) but I really honestly don't want to after yesterday. I don't feel strongly in any of my reads, I can give basic explanations for them later, but my Thespio push is an attempt to sort. I was kind of hoping to see someone else take an angle on this and push it somewhere that made sense.

Can't speak for anyone else but I wasn't looking for this honestly.

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: RCE

I get Enter being weird with his vote. Is your case against me also against my slot and not me?

I can't defend Pvt but after knowing what slot I replaced into his play makes sense. Maybe you answered it this page but I'm still reading the pages I missed. If it isn't clear could I get an answer on this?

[RCEnigma]

I disagree about RCE being an unlikely partner for muh. Muh and RCE bark at each other, but they haven't bitten each other yet. Like when RCE implied he would have preferred a muh lynch, just to go after you the next day, but still keeps muh warm. Same with muh now on Day 2, just that he targets Magik over RCE. This looks like they are carefully burning all bridges between them, knowing that it could become difficult for one of them, maybe even both during Day 2.

I maintain that Munch is scum. I get it's not solid to anyone outside of my slot because you have to single my slot as town to reach that conclusion, looks like I'm universally scumread from repping in so tough luck for me but you guys probably won't reach that conclusion till I flip.

Munch and muh had even scum equity to me pre flip but munch more so with the information from the flips. I stand by my reads so there is no confusion if we end up in a day 3 that I'm not a part of for whatever reason.

[muh316]

@Magik, your defense against my case was pretty good so I'll give you points for that. I still think that you were hunting for townie points. First with the advocacy for Loop and then trying to extend D1 as much as possible.

This is also basically saying "you were pocketing Loop to look townier", which itself is questionable given how mutual it was between the two of us as I said above.

In my mind, that is the perfect pocket. Scum pockets town so hard that the townie starts to advocate for scum.

A full readslist from you is still well past due at that.

I thought my initial post had conveyed sort of a readlist but I'll put a clear one up.

Town
Muh
Skellen
Enter
Thespio - Null
Munch
RCE, Magik
Scum

Muh's reason is a very, very lackluster "I think it looks fake" with no explanation on why and "I agree with Enter on top of that". That barely qualifies as an explanation given how vague and easy to make up it is. Had he actually explained why it "felt fake" I'd be inclined to agree with you on that.

The pity posting by Loop was fake and you even called him out for it. I didn't think I would have to further explain that one.

I thought your vote on Magik was coming out of nowhere because of what I got from your posts from the first day the logical approach for you should be to look over the Loop wagon as you kind of implied that there should be the highest chance to find a scum among the Loop voters if Loop is town in #490. Going by that statement shouldn't it have been your top priority to examine the wagon since Loop flipped as town? Apparently it was important enough to you to complain in #525 that Loop didn't do that, although he did that, just he only scumread you of the people on the Loop wagon.

At that point I didn't know we were going to pressure someone to PR claim. Once I saw the PR claim, I felt that the elements wagon has a higher chance of having scum because they don't want to lynch the VT. They'd rather force more claims to narrow down their night targets.

What do you mean here? RCE wasn't even talking much about you after this (I think two posts at most), instead more about Munch and his wagon theories.

I missed it, where is he talking about Munch in detail?

Yet your first Day 2 action is to look for people who were not on the Loop wagon. Oh yes, you mentioned Thespio (I count him because he was also on the original Loop wagon who put Loop to L-1 for the first time), but basically it was "So many posts, can't read him, null". Well, that effort tells everything.

I agree, my effort in this game has been far less than I would like. That's partly because of real life commitments at work.

[muh316]

In regards to RCE's slot. I know this isn't really considered AI in general, but I think pvtUrist replaced out intentionally to clear out his slot. I looked at his post history and he's been active in his other games, even leading up to his replacement. I've seen this strategy used a couple times by scum who replace out their slot once they get pressured. They think it gives their replacement a clean slate to work with.

Tying this in with RCE's initial self-scumread, this looks like an attempt at "cleaning" a slot that was heavily scumread.

[Nauci]

Vote Count 2.3

RCEnigma

(PvtUrist)

(2) -

Enter

965

,

Enter 1107

,

Thespio 1108

Munchmellow (1) -

RCEnigma

(PvtUrist)

966

MagikHorse (1) -

muh316 1026

muh316 (1) -

MagikHorse 962

Skellen (0) -

Enter (0) -

Thespio (0) -

Enter

1043

UNVOTE/Not Voting (2) -

Skellen 961

,

RCEnigma

(PvtUrist)

961

,

Munchmellow 961

,

MagikHorse

961

,

Enter

961

,

muh316

961

,

Thespio

961

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch or not lynch.

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2019-01-30 07:00:00).

[Thespio]

In regards to RCE's slot. I know this isn't really considered AI in general, but I think pvtUrist replaced out intentionally to clear out his slot. I looked at his post history and he's been active in his other games, even leading up to his replacement. I've seen this strategy used a couple times by scum who replace out their slot once they get pressured. They think it gives their replacement a clean slate to work with.

Tying this in with RCE's initial self-scumread, this looks like an attempt at "cleaning" a slot that was heavily scumread.

What made you scum read him? If it’s my case why am I null?

[muh316]

What made you scum read him? If it’s my case why am I null?

His scumread was a process of elimination given the usual one off-wagon and one on-wagon approach. Combine that with having no votes, an overally scummy slot, and then self-reading scum. Then after looking into pvt's history, it sort of confirms an attempt to cleanse the slot.

You're null because I literally have no idea what to think of you. Sometimes you're towny and sometimes you're scummy so I don't know where to put you. The other thing is you have so many posts and frankly I don't think I'll be able to go through all of them. I don't have the motivation to do it yet but that may come up in the future.

[MagikHorse]

In regards to RCE's slot. I know this isn't really considered AI in general, but I think pvtUrist replaced out intentionally to clear out his slot. I looked at his post history and he's been active in his other games, even leading up to his replacement. I've seen this strategy used a couple times by scum who replace out their slot once they get pressured. They think it gives their replacement a clean slate to work with.

Tying this in with RCE's initial self-scumread, this looks like an attempt at "cleaning" a slot that was heavily scumread.

You're correct that merely replacing out isn't AI. That being said it is still odd that he was being active elsewhere, which is something I noticed myself during that timeframe where he was being replaced, since I kept checking who was online and doing things waiting for responses every now and then when things were slow. I have no clue how valid that strategy of "cleaning their slot" is, but it speaks to some sort of shenanigans or a case of being overgamed. The question is whether it's scum indicative or him realizing he was in too many games already and had to cut something to keep his level of activity up elsewhere, which is easy to ask and difficult to prove.

In my mind, that is the perfect pocket. Scum pockets town so hard that the townie starts to advocate for scum.

And in the end all I get is a townread from a corpse by doing so. I lose all future value if he dies, which in turn makes him a poor choice to follow if getting someone in my pocket was the plan. It's a whole lot of work with a whole lot of risk to it for very little gain.

Also, do you think it means anything that we both ended up doing something along those lines to each other? Do you think it means anything that he was "pocketing" me for so long before I ever returned the favor and tried "pocketing" him back? I'm curious to know.

The pity posting by Loop was fake and you even called him out for it. I didn't think I would have to further explain that one.

It's also really convenient that it was both easy and the only thing you had at that time besides copycatting Enter. It makes it sound like you didn't really have anything before and just decided to hop on and ride when it looked like a good lynch target. Loop called it opportunistic in 266, and I can't help but agree that it's a really easy case to jump aboard off of such an easy reason and ride to the finish.

At that point I didn't know we were going to pressure someone to PR claim. Once I saw the PR claim, I felt that the elements wagon has a higher chance of having scum because they don't want to lynch the VT. They'd rather force more claims to narrow down their night targets.

Would this have been different if Elements claimed to be a VT instead? If the answer is yes, you need to reconsider exactly why this is your focus at all.

Also, why is getting this claim bad for the town when they could've just as likely been scum as a PR? We can't ever find scum without pressuring people to this point after all.

[RCEnigma]

Again the no votes is a misrep. In pvt's case yeah I get it he had all game to do so, I can't speak for him. When I repped in and read through any vote I placed would have been a hammer.

Basing a large part of your read on not hammering Loop or Elements post claim is off base. Pre claim I voiced my intent to hammer leading to his claim. Which is kind of condemning if your argument is that scum was pretty hunting by switching the wagons (which I had no part in).

[RCEnigma]

Ebwop: PR not pretty.