Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[Enter]

Actually, you know what?

I like this better.

VOTE: Thespio

Care to explain? is it that I dont follow your lead so you want me dead? or do you genuinely have some issue with me?

Of all the players in this game, you legitimately feel the weirdest to me right now.

[Enter]

Right so for loopdan you had 'condemning evidence' for me your gut is guiding you? Im getting ready to my reads with a little more content, maybe that will help/hurt your opinion of me. Honestly rereading loopdans interactions you read kind of scummy, I saw your push as town, but that flip hurt you in my mind, your attitude was cocky and you werent willing to look at anyone else, then we come into D2 and you are upset i ask you for more reads and tell you not to tunnel.

You're misrepping me right now, and this is a big reason you're a scum read. Because you regularly do scummy things like this.

I didn't get upset that you asked me for reads. Pretty sure I made that pretty clear.
I also wasn't upset that you asked me to stop tunneling people - you never did that, and you also agreed that I shouldn't stop tunneling people, so you know this, too, is wrong.

I was upset because you acted like you had some sort of control over my play "we arent gonna have you tunnel one guy."

As far as reading you for different reasons, pretty sure you agreed with me that something was wrong with the loopdan read, so OMGUSing me for approaching my other reads differently is also dumb. Stop.

[Enter]

I honestly could see an RCE/Thespio scumteam RN.

[Enter]

1. That's not true. Munch disagreed with everything I said yesterday, and you actually agreed with me for the first part.
2. It is misrepping me, show me where I posted that I was upset that you told me not to tunnel/asked me for more reads. Show me how I got upset about that. Cuz I guarantee this is not me being upset about reads:

You and Magik are funny like this, acting like you have any control whatsoever about how I proceed with the gameday or like I have any intention of going through another loopdan situation again. Not to be an ass, but I don't care if I have your approval for anything I do. I'd really like to see more involvement from you, too. Pretty much anything past surface level reads and bad implementation of game theory/ generally too scummy to be scum behavior.

It's not even me being upset about you thinking tunnels are dumb. It's me being upset about you saying "you aren't gonna do this."

And quit with the FOS crap. Put your vote on me and quit sitting on the fence. And again, that's not how my reads worked, you're assuming a position for me and then attacking that instead of responding to what I'm actually saying.

This is another reason you're scummy, you're going to try and get me all riled up by responding w/ OMGUS, and when that doesn't work (again) you're going to be like "this is TvT" (again) and then assume everyone will townread you.

I can case you later but you've done a load of scummy stuff this game.

[Enter]

I'm still disinclined to believe that scum!Enter would do such a massive deathtunnel and draw so much attention to himself Day 1 knowing that Loop would flip town. That doesn't really make his play good, since it definitely hasn't been most of the game, but his motivations aren't reading sour to me as much as overly eager to case people instead of thinking everything through.

This was my initial thought, but the fact he lynched based on his own sense of logic D1 and now is fishing for wagons D2 to me seems utterly susp. Also why would he defend munch? is it not normal to say you made a mistake and look at the people who did too (intentionally or not?) The fact his wagon is all town but they lynched a townie is super sketchy to me.

LOL. Two things:
1. You pushed loop.
2. You pushed elements.

You pushed one more town wagon than I did. You pushed a PR to the point of claiming. "the fact they lynched a townie is super sketchy" actually wtf.

[Enter]

1. Munch agreed with you and hes near the top of your town list. Point made.
2. Any time you have to say "Not to be an Ass" its you being an ass. Unless you are naturally an ass (which I interacted with you and thought you werent) it tends to be because of emotional turmoil.


2.5 IM NOT VOTING YOU BECAUSE I WANT TO LOOK AT MUNCH AND RCE. You getting on me seemed off though which is the purpose of my post, you arent my first or second pick, but the guys i want arent engaging with me or in munches case interacting with anyone because they are opportunistically posting.

Thats where I am at.

1. Munch disagreed with me on both Loop AND elements. This is what you get for skimming my ISO instead of actually reading it.
2. You're misrepping me and hiding behind "you're a jerk." Stop. That's not an excuse.

[Enter]

You pushed a PR to the point of claiming. "the fact they lynched a townie is super sketchy" actually wtf.

Let me just stop this right there. As I said in my response to Muh pushing on people gets more information about their alignment, and is generally a good thing to do if something is off there. The fact that it was a PR that was acting scummy and got pushed doesn't mean jack about the validity of the push, and Elements himself said that the points made against him were valid. This is not something you can hold against him like this.

His point is that you're townreading anyone who sided with you to kill Loop, and that is still pretty valid looking at your current readslist. Muh is actually a prime example of it in action, since you've said that Muh clearly had a reason to scumread Loop before your case pushed him into action, even though Muh never once put said reasoning out. It's altogether easy for anyone to say "Oh yeah, I totally believed this before your case", and I find it concerning that you just took him at his word.

I feel like this is the second (third?) post where someone takes Thespio's 2(two) points, makes an excuse for one, and then tries to validate the other through some strange jump in logic, with the landing being the assumption that if the second point is correct, the first one also is.

Let's fix this here and now.
1. Elements wasn't acting scummy. He said things that sounded scummy, but he wasn't acting scummy. I have a feeling someone isn't going to read the whole thing that I'm about to say, will take that first sentence, talk about how THEY THOUGHT elements was scummy and then consider my entire first point defeated, just because that's how most of these engagements have gone so far. Why you shouldn't do that, is because this point is completely and totally irrelevant of whether or not elements was acting scummy or not, Thespio's point against me was that I pushed town to lynch and that somehow makes me scummy. My point in return, is that he pushed two town players, and one of them was a PR, so calling me on this is dumb.

2. No, he's saying I'm scumreading anyone who disagreed with me, and that's an important distinction to make, because that's ACTUALLY wrong, and not just a correlation between my reads and what happened yesterday, as I previously pointed out.

The part two of point two here, is that you're ALSO wrong, because muh did provide reasoning for his read (spoilered later) and in addition, you're assuming that my town read is based on the fact that they agreed with me.

Spoiler:

Ah, classic Loop. Stalling the game and trying to push another lynch just to survive another day. First he tried to push my lynch but that didn't go anywhere. As soon as he saw the opportunity of another possible wagon on Elements, he jumped on it immediately.

Its less about rushing anything and moreso HE LITERALLY SAYS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS HIM DEAD. THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST POST OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE: Elements Everything put together against loop, even from what i see is only a fraction of how skummy this post is.

Sure his post was scummy but I still don't see it as a basis for a lynch. Thespio, when you said you would rather self-lynch than have a NL, isn't that sort of the same situation? In that situation, you want town dead for information. In Elements situation, he also wants town dead for information. What separates the two?

Muh is another player to watch out for. OMGUS is a terrible reason to vote anyone this late in the day, especially when the source of that OMGUS is from really early in the day. He's a SE player. If he was a newbie I'd be more lenient given that new players tend to make that argument fairly often, but he should know better than to lean on OMGUS as a reason even if it's just "fuel on the fire". That's not even mentioning the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line which is just terrible.

I'd also expect him to know how to prodge better than 306, but that's admittedly not very AI. He would've been better off saying "This is a prodge. Loop is still scummy", as that would count as enough content to reset the prod timer instead of making one of the worst nitpicks I've seen this game though. I have to wonder if he couldn't find anything better to poke at or something.

What so terrible about the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line? I've noticed that both you and Loop are both hunting for excuses to jump on wagons. First you both did it with my comment about "If you so strongly feel you're town" and then subsequently did it with Elements post. I know Loop is trying to get the wagon off himself, but I feel like you've been pocketed by him and are trying to save him no matter what chance you get.

Nobody else commented on that except for you two which just goes to show how you both are trying to reach at whatever you can get so that this Loop lynch doesn't happen.

Regarding the second point, I was skimming through the game and saw it. I knew if I said "Loop is scum" he would've thrown a fit so I avoided that.

Which fights do you mean besides Elements?

Thespio is still at L-2 and we have no idea why. That wagon was lost between the main fight. Same for PvtUrist, there was some talks of PvtUrist scum but that didn't go anywhere.

If anybody is thinking of hammering, they should wait until after Pvt posts something useful.

Please don't let a hammer drop without allowing me one more post.

I have updated reads but I'd rather wait until there is an intent to hammer.

And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

This feels weird to me. It seems like you're just buying yourself time.

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

Your play in general and because I'm still OMGUSing you from you ignoring me in the beginning of the game. Your attitude didn't help either when Enter called you out. This is the attitude I'm talking about

Spoiler:

pedit: Wow Loop. I thought you'd be better than this as an IC. The pity play is not making you look good man, just sayin'.

100% fair. I'll own this. I'll also probably never IC again. You'll see post-game that I really wanted to make this game a positive experience for newbies because we tend to lose them nowadays. But this game smacked me in the face with the reality that I shouldn't be doing this if I can't devote the time and effort to the game.

To me it comes across as trying to get town's sympathy and felt fake to me. I share Enter's points about flip-flop voting, sheeping, etc so I don't need to restate those.

Anyway, I don't think there's a point in starting up another wagon at this point. The main event in day 1 was Enter vs Loop and I want to see this battle go out to till the end.

The only thing I would add to that post is that scum!Loop would have self-hammered here before town starting looking past Loopdan-Enter.

Can you clarify this? Why would a scum player self-hammer?

Here's the thing: Everybody posting here recently is showing genuine-looking frustration.

Both scum are likely among the inactive players:
Munchmellow
Elements
Muh316
PvtUrist

There's an outside chance of scum!Thespio. I've been going back and forth on that these last pages but can't nail him down.

I'd still like responses to 477 and for the five players above to chime in before end of day. And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

Don't you think there's a higher chance of scum being from the players that are on your wagon if you so strongly feel that you're town?

Magik, I think you're being pocketed. Loop's sweet talk might be getting to you.

[Enter]

Annnnnd... my spoiler broke. Great.

[Enter]

1. Munch disagreed with me on both Loop AND elements. This is what you get for skimming my ISO instead of actually reading it.
2. You're misrepping me and hiding behind "you're a jerk." Stop. That's not an excuse.

Hmm, I must have misread him, regardless your bottom 3 are all people who weren't with you, and you were wrong, why are all the people on your wagon town?

2. Dude im not hiding behind anything, cool you think its susp i didn't want to hammer someone that evolved. I agreed he looked scummy until he got into it with you, as soon as he did i felt he was town, elements who hid all game, while actively watching the game. He looked scum, and when i was on V/LA he began posting. I didn't even see his PR claim until D2 because it ended before i could review what happened. More importantly, blaming the people who picked him up as susp on d1 is stupid, If anything it puts us as town. Loop flipped town, we read him as town at the end of the day, so we looked at the next susp player. Anyone who votes someone they think is town with a ton of time remaining is acting against town. If I kept my vote there I would have seen myself as scum.


PEDIT, i read your whole post you dummy.

1) Someone who lurks, shows up to post, calls someone town and votes them. These are all scum attributes. Im not saying the number of town you push makes you bad, the number of town you kill makes you bad. I didnt get on elements because i suspected a potential power role to post scummy things. And like I said above in this post, I was on V/LA when he came out.

2)Muh echoed you, hard, look at your own ISO. Make sure you arent reading people because they agree with you or you will get pocketed. which is what i think is going to happen in this game, today you will push me/horse, skum will wagon with you Then tomorrow they will push the other with you. then we all lose because you couldnt criticize people who agree with you.

Actually stop saying things that are objectively wrong. Muh is in the bottom three (technically four) of my reads list. You can't just cherry pick what you want to read and ignore the facts.
Also I haven't pushed Magik today at all.
Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

And we got down to deadline w/ no lynch. Who was it yesterday who said they'd rather lynch themselves (conftown) than no lynch? Oh wait.

Your reasoning over calling me scummy because loop flipped town is only reasonable considering the fact that having less town players is worse for town. Under that same reasoning, pushing town players to claim PR and get NK'd is also worse for town. => Your reasoning here is dumb, please drop it.

[Enter]

1. Elements wasn't acting scummy. He said things that sounded scummy, but he wasn't acting scummy. I have a feeling someone isn't going to read the whole thing that I'm about to say, will take that first sentence, talk about how THEY THOUGHT elements was scummy and then consider my entire first point defeated, just because that's how most of these engagements have gone so far. Why you shouldn't do that, is because this point is completely and totally irrelevant of whether or not elements was acting scummy or not, Thespio's point against me was that I pushed town to lynch and that somehow makes me scummy. My point in return, is that he pushed two town players, and one of them was a PR, so calling me on this is dumb.

What else was anyone gonna do to get some outside information going on here? There was no other "scummy acting" going on besides the lurking squad that wasn't going to respond in a decent timeframe to make the push worthwhile, which is coincidentally why the Muh wagon broke up Day 1. You're putting the blame on him for taking the only available road to try and get some better information on other players, which is overall not cool.

No, what's not cool is pretending a town flip means everyone on the wagon was scummy. I don't know how you still don't get the point of this: I'm not calling Thesp scum because he pushed elements and loop. I'm saying Thesp's reasoning for calling me scum based solely on the fact that I was on loop's wagon when he flipped town is bad, and showing him in an example that is easily accessible why that is bad.

2. No, he's saying I'm scumreading anyone who disagreed with me, and that's an important distinction to make, because that's ACTUALLY wrong, and not just a correlation between my reads and what happened yesterday, as I previously pointed out.

The part two of point two here, is that you're ALSO wrong, because muh did provide reasoning for his read (spoilered later) and in addition, you're assuming that my town read is based on the fact that they agreed with me.

Muh's reason is a very, very lackluster "I think it looks fake" with no explanation on why and "I agree with Enter on top of that". That barely qualifies as an explanation given how vague and easy to make up it is. Had he actually explained why it "felt fake" I'd be inclined to agree with you on that.

Also, you have yet to give us any information to the contrary regarding your reads. With a lack of information for why you read people as you do, we must fill in the blanks with what we see, and that's exactly what it looks like from the outside perspective. You have only yourself to blame for that by not explaining your reads basically at all unless you're tunneling them.

Let me get this straight: You are drawing assumptions instead of asking questions, and you're blaming me for your failure? How does this add up for you?

[Enter]

I'm not discussing muh right now, because if I do I'll be biased to TR him based solely on the fact that I'm in the middle of an argument with both of you, and you continuously misrepresent and fail to understand the points of my case. Once we have this worked out, I'm more willing to approach my reads from a place of dispassion and I'm less likely to put them somewhere other than where they really are.

[Enter]

Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

Elements with this string of posts, although he technically voted Loop and then called him Town, not the other way around:

post 562 seems utterly irrelevant to anything. Can people stop letting loopdan waste time and lynch him VOTE: loopdan

i don't think you're scum.

I think you are town

but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

this was poorly worded it sould've been: "

i think loopdan is town

, but his lynch will tell us the most information"

The wagon came shortly thereafter.

Oh I see what you're getting at. I disagree that that was scummy, but p sure we had that discussion before.

[Enter]

For some reason I thought you were trying to come at me/muh over that and i was very confused.

[Enter]

Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

Elements did:

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

This was his post after voting loopdan in post 163

I agree that you just being on the wagon doesnt make you scum, i do think like i said that the majority of your scum (as you pointed out there was 1 outlier) are all the people who didnt want to kill town. Why in gods green earth wouldnt i just have agreed with you as scum, you have a loud voice, your posts are walls, scum imo would want you pocketed, or want you to think they were in your pocket. seriously do the math, 2 of the 7 of us are bad, so only 5 town, scum would have spent most of yesterday preparing to ML today. so loopdans ML is where we should start, that makes horse town (admittedly this makes my munch read wrong) Munch town, im obv town. RCE is still in deep shit from their predecessor and they didnt vote to save town they just didnt vote at all.

Wait let me get this straight: Your argument is that scum guaranteed did not vote loopdan? LOL

Let's go down the list of reasons you didn't hammer:
1. WK points
2. Scummy quickhammers
3. Dragging out day for town points = more town points
4. Looked like loop would get lynched anyways and you'd get points for not being on it.

Now let's talk about how it's super funny that this reasoning appears out of thin air after we've been in day two for a while and it completely flips your munch read, but it makes so much sense to you? Lol

Oh I see what you're getting at. I disagree that that was scummy, but p sure we had that discussion before.

So if i said "Enter I think you are town" and voted you, that would make you tr me?

We already had this discussion. I can quote myself at you, or you can read my ISO. Either way, he didn't just say "loopdan I think you're town" and vote him. Pls stop cherry picking your arguments.

[Enter]

Ultimately elements was a mistake, but his string of posts was the most scum filled thing i had seen all game, loops activity made me see them as town, prior when they were avoiding confrontation i saw your point. So when i see yesterday, with the 5 of you on loop, 2 of those 5 ruled out (horse because he was on elements for legit reasons, and elements being dead, it leaves the remaining 3 as susp.

WTF are you misrepping here?

I didnt hammer because i wasnt online, when i posted intent i didnt get back on until he was dead. Im running theories here, your wagon contained scum. PERIOD. you are now in my bottom two because i miss read munch. so you are my first suspect.

and yes, i know he didnt in the same post, but he called him town, voted him, then called him town again. can you literally stop tunnelling and objectively evaluate your wagon? or is that to hard, at this point ignoring you progresses this game more then interacting with you. you arent building you are muddying the game.

Good. Vote me please.

First I want to get some things straight real quick tho:
1. The fact that elements was a mistake IS THE POINT. Loopdan was also a mistake, and the fact that you excuse elements but not loop is what I'm pointing out as flawed.
2. You've been misrepping me and "muddying the game" since I scumread you a couple posts ago, which is the same thing you did the last time I scumread you.
3. There is no wagon on you, stop using buzzwords to sound like you know what you're talking about.
4. Your argument is that loopdan flipped town => there was scum on his wagon. But what I'm trying to get you to realize, is that if Elements wasn't a PR, he also would have flipped town, and loopdan wouldn't have flipped at all. And you would be scumreading an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SET OF PEOPLE. Someone even dropped an intent to hammer on elements.

I'm pointing out how absolutely DEVOID OF LOGIC your argument is and you're calling me scum and misrepping me.

Also out of curiosity, what is it that you think that I'm misrepping you on?

[Enter]

Also quit talking about being objective when you haven't taken a single objective look at your argument since I put my vote on you. You're WAY overreacting.

[Enter]

You cant take any pressure, you get all flustered, feel like you are being misrepped which you arent. shitpost with stuff like this:

Wait let me get this straight: Your argument is that scum guaranteed did not vote loopdan? LOL

Let's go down the list of reasons you didn't hammer:
1. WK points
2. Scummy quickhammers
3. Dragging out day for town points = more town points
4. Looked like loop would get lynched anyways and you'd get points for not being on it.

which isnt even anything to do with my post.

M8 chill, im being objective, i didnt tunnel someone into oblivion, and even while questioning you notice i still have someone i suspect more. Ill grant you it might have been a mistake, but you still miss the mark everywhere else.

LOL who can't take pressure? I voted you and you reacted like this:

Spoiler:

"we arent gonna have you tunnel one guy."

As far as reading you for different reasons, pretty sure you agreed with me that something was wrong with the loopdan read, so OMGUSing me for approaching my other reads differently is also dumb. Stop.

I did agree but you never progressed beyond that, you didnt push anyone else, when we have 4 active players (you, me, loopdan, and Horse) its hard to actually get accurate reads on anyone. Also the fact you see RCE as scum and me as scum confirms to me that you only scumread people who dont agree with you. You attacked Horse for the same thing, notice your reads, you put him at the bottom. I think everyone ought to seriously look at the fact you hard tunneled a townie yesterday and now you are trying to put shade on anyone who resisted or didnt vote your way. Its not missrepping when you literally post it

Rough draft:

Town

Skellen
Munch
Thespio/Muh
===
Magik
RCE

Scum

This is weird for me cuz I think there's prolly only one scum between Magik/RCE, but that's where I sit atm.

Oh dang there it is. You putting the people who didnt shift. Beyond that your reason for lynching me is that im omgusing, except im not, ive not voted you im reading your iso. i can summarize it:

Tunnels Loopdan
interacts with me (still tunnelling loopdan)
Tunnels Loopdan
Attacks Horse (still tunnelling loopdan)
Lynches Loopdan
Loopdan flips green
Puts everyone who was off loopdan or was hesitant to vote loop on their scum list.


I just want to know why you think scum werent on your wagon, and im not TR RCE you are just the most obvscum right now, FOS on Enter.

And yeah, it does have to do with your post, you said

Why in gods green earth wouldnt i just have agreed with you as scum

Please actually chill and pay attention

[Enter]

The first bit of 1066 is already being discussed between the two of you, so I'm cutting that piece out since it's no longer relevant.

Let me get this straight: You are drawing assumptions instead of asking questions, and you're blaming me for your failure? How does this add up for you?

Nice loaded question, but that doesn't do much to change the fact that you can't expect us to be able to read your mind. If you don't explain things you're just leaving yourself open to interpretation, which is your own consequence of not explaining them.

Take a moment if you need to to get over the arguments you've just been in/are still in, then please enlighten us on your reasoning instead of just tossing blame at us for misunderstanding your unexplained reads. That's honestly a better way to kill that off as an argument than arguing the validity of filling in your holes.

I'm not asking you to read my mind, I'm asking you to ask questions if you have them, because I, also, cannot read your mind and know what you need/want more information on.

There is no wagon on you, stop using buzzwords to sound like you know what you're talking about.

dude you hard core were fishing for wagons, you popped your vote down, saw someone vote me, and voted me because reasons. XD you are so anti town that if you arent scum you should re-evaluate your play style.

Lol . So now you're assuming every time someone puts down a vote, they're "fishing for wagons?" What even is that?
And regardless, that doesn't change the fact that there is STILL no wagon on you, which makes what you said STILL wrong.

Also, I thought I was your primary target? Why is your vote still not on me?

Finally, I'm "anti town" because I put votes on people that I think are scummy? Please explain yourself more here, because I'm not the person that has been misrepresenting people all of day two.

[Enter]

Dude, you overreacted to my vote on you, immediately called me scum, and followed up by continuously misrepping my arguments, ignoring the points I have against you and trying to answer points I didn't make against you, you're telling me I'm anti-town w/ because "popped my vote down, saw someone vote you, and voted you because reasons" - which is strange, because I'm the only person voting you right now (hence, did not "see someone else vote you") so your argument for why I'm anti town is because I voted you because reasons. You're the one failing to be objective here. Please figure out what you're doing and fix this.

[Enter]

As much fun as day one was, I really don't want all of day two to be a yelling match, so the sooner you figure out what on earth is going on, the better.

[Enter]

You flipped out when i suggested we not ignore your skummy wagon.

This is circular logic at it's finest. My hands are actually shaking right now because I don't understand how you cannot comprehend what you are saying. Let's try and break this down into small, easy-to-swallow pieces, alright?

1. You say that I am wagoning you when there are literally no other votes on you.
2. You say that I flipped out because you said that I am wagoning you.
3. Your explanation for why I was flipping out is because you accused me of wagoning you.
4. Your explanation for me wagoning you is a quote wall of me flipping out.
5. You say that I flip out because you accuse me of wagoning you
6. You say that I am wagoning you as an example of me flipping out.

Please. I don't know how to explain this in simpler terms. Maybe someone else can explain it to you, but this is actually very bad.

Dude we talked about this D1, I want to look at PVTs slot. I want RCE to explain the shiftyness of their slot and why their vote didnt move.

Also im not failing to be objective you are just arent explaining yourself you just say you were misrepped.

I've explained multiple times how you're misrepresenting me. Just because you ignore my explanations doesn't cause them to fail to exist.

Please vote me if I am your prime target right now.

[Enter]

I'm not asking you to read my mind, I'm asking you to ask questions if you have them, because I, also, cannot read your mind and know what you need/want more information on.

After dragging on the whole first day in a quest to get more information including detailed readslists, why would you think I wouldn't want this? Readslists are always better off with descriptions of why people are there or what has changed since the last time, with no exceptions I can think of. More information in general is better unless there's a reason not to put it out (e.g. suspecting that someone is a PR).

Either way, just prove us wrong if you can by explaining them. This argument is pointless and is only going to yield frustration.

It's already yielded frustration, I honestly feel like you're just trying to get moral high ground here, even though you're the one that made the mistake. Whatever, it doesn't matter. Can you please explain why Thespio's logic is circular to him in better words than the ones I used?

I'm not asking you to read my mind, I'm asking you to ask questions if you have them, because I, also, cannot read your mind and know what you need/want more information on.

After dragging on the whole first day in a quest to get more information including detailed readslists, why would you think I wouldn't want this? Readslists are always better off with descriptions of why people are there or what has changed since the last time, with no exceptions I can think of. More information in general is better unless there's a reason not to put it out (e.g. suspecting that someone is a PR).

Either way, just prove us wrong if you can by explaining them. This argument is pointless and is only going to yield frustration.

I agree with this.

Ofc you do, I bet you don't understand a word in it either, you just know he's on your side and you're looking for someone to help you not feel dumb for the past couple pages.

[Enter]

Talk about not reading posts

Someone please help Thesp understand why his logic is circular. I'm about to have an aneurism.

[Enter]

Puts vote on X (no traction) >> puts vote on Y, player is active and replies >> keeps vote in hopes others will misslynch because scum or anti town. Very linear.

You still aren’t reading my posts.

So now your argument is every time someone changes where their vote is, they're looking for a mislynch? Funny, you changed your vote a lot yesterday to gain traction. I also didn't move my vote very much at all yesterday.

Also this is different from the circular "fishing for wagon."

[Enter]

You can't just accuse someone of not reading your posts just because you don't like/don't understand what they say.

[Enter]

You can't just accuse someone of not reading your posts just because you don't like/don't understand what they say.

How about because you only responded to half of my post?

How about you don't respond to more than a few words of my post, and often in a way that makes literally no sense whatsoever.

How about this:

We solve this whole thing:
You quote whatever part of whatever post it is you want more responded to that I missed, and then you try and respond to all the parts of my posts that you missed (I would quote them for you but I have to go do something really quick). When I get back, I'll quote for you anything else I want you to respond to.

Then we will work through each and every one of your arguments and discuss why some of them are circular, some of them are dumb, and some of them I might have misunderstood or I might have been dumb on. Seem fair?

PEdit: I don't want you to make my argument for me, it's not my argument, it's Thespio's. You've made arguments for him several times.

[Enter]

So I just re-skimmed every page since beginning of day 2 looking to quote every time Thespio was voted by someone who was not me, but I cannot quote what is not there.

Please, prove me wrong. Quote the vote on you, Thespio.

[Enter]

I figured out a better way to explain why your logic is circular, BTW:

Spoiler: me flipping out after you calling my wagon scummy

Right so for loopdan you had 'condemning evidence' for me your gut is guiding you? Im getting ready to my reads with a little more content, maybe that will help/hurt your opinion of me. Honestly rereading loopdans interactions you read kind of scummy, I saw your push as town, but that flip hurt you in my mind, your attitude was cocky and you werent willing to look at anyone else, then we come into D2 and you are upset i ask you for more reads and tell you not to tunnel.

You're misrepping me right now, and this is a big reason you're a scum read. Because you regularly do scummy things like this.

I didn't get upset that you asked me for reads. Pretty sure I made that pretty clear.
I also wasn't upset that you asked me to stop tunneling people - you never did that, and you also agreed that I shouldn't stop tunneling people, so you know this, too, is wrong.

I was upset because you acted like you had some sort of control over my play "we arent gonna have you tunnel one guy."

As far as reading you for different reasons, pretty sure you agreed with me that something was wrong with the loopdan read, so OMGUSing me for approaching my other reads differently is also dumb. Stop.

I honestly could see an RCE/Thespio scumteam RN.

1. That's not true. Munch disagreed with everything I said yesterday, and you actually agreed with me for the first part.
2. It is misrepping me, show me where I posted that I was upset that you told me not to tunnel/asked me for more reads. Show me how I got upset about that. Cuz I guarantee this is not me being upset about reads:

You and Magik are funny like this, acting like you have any control whatsoever about how I proceed with the gameday or like I have any intention of going through another loopdan situation again. Not to be an ass, but I don't care if I have your approval for anything I do. I'd really like to see more involvement from you, too. Pretty much anything past surface level reads and bad implementation of game theory/ generally too scummy to be scum behavior.

It's not even me being upset about you thinking tunnels are dumb. It's me being upset about you saying "you aren't gonna do this."

And quit with the FOS crap. Put your vote on me and quit sitting on the fence. And again, that's not how my reads worked, you're assuming a position for me and then attacking that instead of responding to what I'm actually saying.

This is another reason you're scummy, you're going to try and get me all riled up by responding w/ OMGUS, and when that doesn't work (again) you're going to be like "this is TvT" (again) and then assume everyone will townread you.

I can case you later but you've done a load of scummy stuff this game.

I'm still disinclined to believe that scum!Enter would do such a massive deathtunnel and draw so much attention to himself Day 1 knowing that Loop would flip town. That doesn't really make his play good, since it definitely hasn't been most of the game, but his motivations aren't reading sour to me as much as overly eager to case people instead of thinking everything through.

This was my initial thought, but the fact he lynched based on his own sense of logic D1 and now is fishing for wagons D2 to me seems utterly susp. Also why would he defend munch? is it not normal to say you made a mistake and look at the people who did too (intentionally or not?) The fact his wagon is all town but they lynched a townie is super sketchy to me.

LOL. Two things:
1. You pushed loop.
2. You pushed elements.

You pushed one more town wagon than I did. You pushed a PR to the point of claiming. "the fact they lynched a townie is super sketchy" actually wtf.

1. Munch agreed with you and hes near the top of your town list. Point made.
2. Any time you have to say "Not to be an Ass" its you being an ass. Unless you are naturally an ass (which I interacted with you and thought you werent) it tends to be because of emotional turmoil.


2.5 IM NOT VOTING YOU BECAUSE I WANT TO LOOK AT MUNCH AND RCE. You getting on me seemed off though which is the purpose of my post, you arent my first or second pick, but the guys i want arent engaging with me or in munches case interacting with anyone because they are opportunistically posting.

Thats where I am at.

1. Munch disagreed with me on both Loop AND elements. This is what you get for skimming my ISO instead of actually reading it.
2. You're misrepping me and hiding behind "you're a jerk." Stop. That's not an excuse.

You pushed a PR to the point of claiming. "the fact they lynched a townie is super sketchy" actually wtf.

Let me just stop this right there. As I said in my response to Muh pushing on people gets more information about their alignment, and is generally a good thing to do if something is off there. The fact that it was a PR that was acting scummy and got pushed doesn't mean jack about the validity of the push, and Elements himself said that the points made against him were valid. This is not something you can hold against him like this.

His point is that you're townreading anyone who sided with you to kill Loop, and that is still pretty valid looking at your current readslist. Muh is actually a prime example of it in action, since you've said that Muh clearly had a reason to scumread Loop before your case pushed him into action, even though Muh never once put said reasoning out. It's altogether easy for anyone to say "Oh yeah, I totally believed this before your case", and I find it concerning that you just took him at his word.

I feel like this is the second (third?) post where someone takes Thespio's 2(two) points, makes an excuse for one, and then tries to validate the other through some strange jump in logic, with the landing being the assumption that if the second point is correct, the first one also is.

Let's fix this here and now.
1. Elements wasn't acting scummy. He said things that sounded scummy, but he wasn't acting scummy. I have a feeling someone isn't going to read the whole thing that I'm about to say, will take that first sentence, talk about how THEY THOUGHT elements was scummy and then consider my entire first point defeated, just because that's how most of these engagements have gone so far. Why you shouldn't do that, is because this point is completely and totally irrelevant of whether or not elements was acting scummy or not, Thespio's point against me was that I pushed town to lynch and that somehow makes me scummy. My point in return, is that he pushed two town players, and one of them was a PR, so calling me on this is dumb.

2. No, he's saying I'm scumreading anyone who disagreed with me, and that's an important distinction to make, because that's ACTUALLY wrong, and not just a correlation between my reads and what happened yesterday, as I previously pointed out.

The part two of point two here, is that you're ALSO wrong, because muh did provide reasoning for his read (spoilered later) and in addition, you're assuming that my town read is based on the fact that they agreed with me.

Ah, classic Loop. Stalling the game and trying to push another lynch just to survive another day. First he tried to push my lynch but that didn't go anywhere. As soon as he saw the opportunity of another possible wagon on Elements, he jumped on it immediately.

Its less about rushing anything and moreso HE LITERALLY SAYS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS HIM DEAD. THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST POST OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE: Elements Everything put together against loop, even from what i see is only a fraction of how skummy this post is.

Sure his post was scummy but I still don't see it as a basis for a lynch. Thespio, when you said you would rather self-lynch than have a NL, isn't that sort of the same situation? In that situation, you want town dead for information. In Elements situation, he also wants town dead for information. What separates the two?

Muh is another player to watch out for. OMGUS is a terrible reason to vote anyone this late in the day, especially when the source of that OMGUS is from really early in the day. He's a SE player. If he was a newbie I'd be more lenient given that new players tend to make that argument fairly often, but he should know better than to lean on OMGUS as a reason even if it's just "fuel on the fire". That's not even mentioning the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line which is just terrible.

I'd also expect him to know how to prodge better than 306, but that's admittedly not very AI. He would've been better off saying "This is a prodge. Loop is still scummy", as that would count as enough content to reset the prod timer instead of making one of the worst nitpicks I've seen this game though. I have to wonder if he couldn't find anything better to poke at or something.

What so terrible about the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line? I've noticed that both you and Loop are both hunting for excuses to jump on wagons. First you both did it with my comment about "If you so strongly feel you're town" and then subsequently did it with Elements post. I know Loop is trying to get the wagon off himself, but I feel like you've been pocketed by him and are trying to save him no matter what chance you get.

Nobody else commented on that except for you two which just goes to show how you both are trying to reach at whatever you can get so that this Loop lynch doesn't happen.

Regarding the second point, I was skimming through the game and saw it. I knew if I said "Loop is scum" he would've thrown a fit so I avoided that.

Which fights do you mean besides Elements?

Thespio is still at L-2 and we have no idea why. That wagon was lost between the main fight. Same for PvtUrist, there was some talks of PvtUrist scum but that didn't go anywhere.

If anybody is thinking of hammering, they should wait until after Pvt posts something useful.

Please don't let a hammer drop without allowing me one more post.

I have updated reads but I'd rather wait until there is an intent to hammer.

And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

This feels weird to me. It seems like you're just buying yourself time.

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

Your play in general and because I'm still OMGUSing you from you ignoring me in the beginning of the game. Your attitude didn't help either when Enter called you out. This is the attitude I'm talking about

pedit: Wow Loop. I thought you'd be better than this as an IC. The pity play is not making you look good man, just sayin'.

100% fair. I'll own this. I'll also probably never IC again. You'll see post-game that I really wanted to make this game a positive experience for newbies because we tend to lose them nowadays. But this game smacked me in the face with the reality that I shouldn't be doing this if I can't devote the time and effort to the game.

To me it comes across as trying to get town's sympathy and felt fake to me. I share Enter's points about flip-flop voting, sheeping, etc so I don't need to restate those.

Anyway, I don't think there's a point in starting up another wagon at this point. The main event in day 1 was Enter vs Loop and I want to see this battle go out to till the end.

The only thing I would add to that post is that scum!Loop would have self-hammered here before town starting looking past Loopdan-Enter.

Can you clarify this? Why would a scum player self-hammer?

Here's the thing: Everybody posting here recently is showing genuine-looking frustration.

Both scum are likely among the inactive players:
Munchmellow
Elements
Muh316
PvtUrist

There's an outside chance of scum!Thespio. I've been going back and forth on that these last pages but can't nail him down.

I'd still like responses to 477 and for the five players above to chime in before end of day. And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

Don't you think there's a higher chance of scum being from the players that are on your wagon if you so strongly feel that you're town?

Magik, I think you're being pocketed. Loop's sweet talk might be getting to you.

1. Munch disagreed with me on both Loop AND elements. This is what you get for skimming my ISO instead of actually reading it.
2. You're misrepping me and hiding behind "you're a jerk." Stop. That's not an excuse.

Hmm, I must have misread him, regardless your bottom 3 are all people who weren't with you, and you were wrong, why are all the people on your wagon town?

2. Dude im not hiding behind anything, cool you think its susp i didn't want to hammer someone that evolved. I agreed he looked scummy until he got into it with you, as soon as he did i felt he was town, elements who hid all game, while actively watching the game. He looked scum, and when i was on V/LA he began posting. I didn't even see his PR claim until D2 because it ended before i could review what happened. More importantly, blaming the people who picked him up as susp on d1 is stupid, If anything it puts us as town. Loop flipped town, we read him as town at the end of the day, so we looked at the next susp player. Anyone who votes someone they think is town with a ton of time remaining is acting against town. If I kept my vote there I would have seen myself as scum.


PEDIT, i read your whole post you dummy.

1) Someone who lurks, shows up to post, calls someone town and votes them. These are all scum attributes. Im not saying the number of town you push makes you bad, the number of town you kill makes you bad. I didnt get on elements because i suspected a potential power role to post scummy things. And like I said above in this post, I was on V/LA when he came out.

2)Muh echoed you, hard, look at your own ISO. Make sure you arent reading people because they agree with you or you will get pocketed. which is what i think is going to happen in this game, today you will push me/horse, skum will wagon with you Then tomorrow they will push the other with you. then we all lose because you couldnt criticize people who agree with you.

Actually stop saying things that are objectively wrong. Muh is in the bottom three (technically four) of my reads list. You can't just cherry pick what you want to read and ignore the facts.
Also I haven't pushed Magik today at all.
Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

And we got down to deadline w/ no lynch. Who was it yesterday who said they'd rather lynch themselves (conftown) than no lynch? Oh wait.

Your reasoning over calling me scummy because loop flipped town is only reasonable considering the fact that having less town players is worse for town. Under that same reasoning, pushing town players to claim PR and get NK'd is also worse for town. => Your reasoning here is dumb, please drop it.

1. Elements wasn't acting scummy. He said things that sounded scummy, but he wasn't acting scummy. I have a feeling someone isn't going to read the whole thing that I'm about to say, will take that first sentence, talk about how THEY THOUGHT elements was scummy and then consider my entire first point defeated, just because that's how most of these engagements have gone so far. Why you shouldn't do that, is because this point is completely and totally irrelevant of whether or not elements was acting scummy or not, Thespio's point against me was that I pushed town to lynch and that somehow makes me scummy. My point in return, is that he pushed two town players, and one of them was a PR, so calling me on this is dumb.

What else was anyone gonna do to get some outside information going on here? There was no other "scummy acting" going on besides the lurking squad that wasn't going to respond in a decent timeframe to make the push worthwhile, which is coincidentally why the Muh wagon broke up Day 1. You're putting the blame on him for taking the only available road to try and get some better information on other players, which is overall not cool.

No, what's not cool is pretending a town flip means everyone on the wagon was scummy. I don't know how you still don't get the point of this: I'm not calling Thesp scum because he pushed elements and loop. I'm saying Thesp's reasoning for calling me scum based solely on the fact that I was on loop's wagon when he flipped town is bad, and showing him in an example that is easily accessible why that is bad.

2. No, he's saying I'm scumreading anyone who disagreed with me, and that's an important distinction to make, because that's ACTUALLY wrong, and not just a correlation between my reads and what happened yesterday, as I previously pointed out.

The part two of point two here, is that you're ALSO wrong, because muh did provide reasoning for his read (spoilered later) and in addition, you're assuming that my town read is based on the fact that they agreed with me.

Muh's reason is a very, very lackluster "I think it looks fake" with no explanation on why and "I agree with Enter on top of that". That barely qualifies as an explanation given how vague and easy to make up it is. Had he actually explained why it "felt fake" I'd be inclined to agree with you on that.

Also, you have yet to give us any information to the contrary regarding your reads. With a lack of information for why you read people as you do, we must fill in the blanks with what we see, and that's exactly what it looks like from the outside perspective. You have only yourself to blame for that by not explaining your reads basically at all unless you're tunneling them.

Let me get this straight: You are drawing assumptions instead of asking questions, and you're blaming me for your failure? How does this add up for you?

I'm not discussing muh right now, because if I do I'll be biased to TR him based solely on the fact that I'm in the middle of an argument with both of you, and you continuously misrepresent and fail to understand the points of my case. Once we have this worked out, I'm more willing to approach my reads from a place of dispassion and I'm less likely to put them somewhere other than where they really are.

Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

Elements with this string of posts, although he technically voted Loop and then called him Town, not the other way around:

post 562 seems utterly irrelevant to anything. Can people stop letting loopdan waste time and lynch him VOTE: loopdan

i don't think you're scum.

I think you are town

but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

this was poorly worded it sould've been: "

i think loopdan is town

, but his lynch will tell us the most information"

The wagon came shortly thereafter.

Oh I see what you're getting at. I disagree that that was scummy, but p sure we had that discussion before.

Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

Elements did:

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

This was his post after voting loopdan in post 163

I agree that you just being on the wagon doesnt make you scum, i do think like i said that the majority of your scum (as you pointed out there was 1 outlier) are all the people who didnt want to kill town. Why in gods green earth wouldnt i just have agreed with you as scum, you have a loud voice, your posts are walls, scum imo would want you pocketed, or want you to think they were in your pocket. seriously do the math, 2 of the 7 of us are bad, so only 5 town, scum would have spent most of yesterday preparing to ML today. so loopdans ML is where we should start, that makes horse town (admittedly this makes my munch read wrong) Munch town, im obv town. RCE is still in deep shit from their predecessor and they didnt vote to save town they just didnt vote at all.

Wait let me get this straight: Your argument is that scum guaranteed did not vote loopdan? LOL

Let's go down the list of reasons you didn't hammer:
1. WK points
2. Scummy quickhammers
3. Dragging out day for town points = more town points
4. Looked like loop would get lynched anyways and you'd get points for not being on it.

Now let's talk about how it's super funny that this reasoning appears out of thin air after we've been in day two for a while and it completely flips your munch read, but it makes so much sense to you? Lol

Oh I see what you're getting at. I disagree that that was scummy, but p sure we had that discussion before.

So if i said "Enter I think you are town" and voted you, that would make you tr me?

We already had this discussion. I can quote myself at you, or you can read my ISO. Either way, he didn't just say "loopdan I think you're town" and vote him. Pls stop cherry picking your arguments.

Ultimately elements was a mistake, but his string of posts was the most scum filled thing i had seen all game, loops activity made me see them as town, prior when they were avoiding confrontation i saw your point. So when i see yesterday, with the 5 of you on loop, 2 of those 5 ruled out (horse because he was on elements for legit reasons, and elements being dead, it leaves the remaining 3 as susp.

WTF are you misrepping here?

I didnt hammer because i wasnt online, when i posted intent i didnt get back on until he was dead. Im running theories here, your wagon contained scum. PERIOD. you are now in my bottom two because i miss read munch. so you are my first suspect.

and yes, i know he didnt in the same post, but he called him town, voted him, then called him town again. can you literally stop tunnelling and objectively evaluate your wagon? or is that to hard, at this point ignoring you progresses this game more then interacting with you. you arent building you are muddying the game.

Good. Vote me please.

First I want to get some things straight real quick tho:
1. The fact that elements was a mistake IS THE POINT. Loopdan was also a mistake, and the fact that you excuse elements but not loop is what I'm pointing out as flawed.
2. You've been misrepping me and "muddying the game" since I scumread you a couple posts ago, which is the same thing you did the last time I scumread you.
3. There is no wagon on you, stop using buzzwords to sound like you know what you're talking about.
4. Your argument is that loopdan flipped town => there was scum on his wagon. But what I'm trying to get you to realize, is that if Elements wasn't a PR, he also would have flipped town, and loopdan wouldn't have flipped at all. And you would be scumreading an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SET OF PEOPLE. Someone even dropped an intent to hammer on elements.

I'm pointing out how absolutely DEVOID OF LOGIC your argument is and you're calling me scum and misrepping me.

Also out of curiosity, what is it that you think that I'm misrepping you on?

You cant take any pressure, you get all flustered, feel like you are being misrepped which you arent. shitpost with stuff like this:

Wait let me get this straight: Your argument is that scum guaranteed did not vote loopdan? LOL

Let's go down the list of reasons you didn't hammer:
1. WK points
2. Scummy quickhammers
3. Dragging out day for town points = more town points
4. Looked like loop would get lynched anyways and you'd get points for not being on it.

which isnt even anything to do with my post.

M8 chill, im being objective, i didnt tunnel someone into oblivion, and even while questioning you notice i still have someone i suspect more. Ill grant you it might have been a mistake, but you still miss the mark everywhere else.

LOL who can't take pressure? I voted you and you reacted like this:

"we arent gonna have you tunnel one guy."

As far as reading you for different reasons, pretty sure you agreed with me that something was wrong with the loopdan read, so OMGUSing me for approaching my other reads differently is also dumb. Stop.

I did agree but you never progressed beyond that, you didnt push anyone else, when we have 4 active players (you, me, loopdan, and Horse) its hard to actually get accurate reads on anyone. Also the fact you see RCE as scum and me as scum confirms to me that you only scumread people who dont agree with you. You attacked Horse for the same thing, notice your reads, you put him at the bottom. I think everyone ought to seriously look at the fact you hard tunneled a townie yesterday and now you are trying to put shade on anyone who resisted or didnt vote your way. Its not missrepping when you literally post it

Rough draft:

Town

Skellen
Munch
Thespio/Muh
===
Magik
RCE

Scum

This is weird for me cuz I think there's prolly only one scum between Magik/RCE, but that's where I sit atm.

Oh dang there it is. You putting the people who didnt shift. Beyond that your reason for lynching me is that im omgusing, except im not, ive not voted you im reading your iso. i can summarize it:

Tunnels Loopdan
interacts with me (still tunnelling loopdan)
Tunnels Loopdan
Attacks Horse (still tunnelling loopdan)
Lynches Loopdan
Loopdan flips green
Puts everyone who was off loopdan or was hesitant to vote loop on their scum list.


I just want to know why you think scum werent on your wagon, and im not TR RCE you are just the most obvscum right now, FOS on Enter.

And yeah, it does have to do with your post, you said

Why in gods green earth wouldnt i just have agreed with you as scum

Please actually chill and pay attention

The first bit of 1066 is already being discussed between the two of you, so I'm cutting that piece out since it's no longer relevant.

Let me get this straight: You are drawing assumptions instead of asking questions, and you're blaming me for your failure? How does this add up for you?

Nice loaded question, but that doesn't do much to change the fact that you can't expect us to be able to read your mind. If you don't explain things you're just leaving yourself open to interpretation, which is your own consequence of not explaining them.

Take a moment if you need to to get over the arguments you've just been in/are still in, then please enlighten us on your reasoning instead of just tossing blame at us for misunderstanding your unexplained reads. That's honestly a better way to kill that off as an argument than arguing the validity of filling in your holes.

I'm not asking you to read my mind, I'm asking you to ask questions if you have them, because I, also, cannot read your mind and know what you need/want more information on.

There is no wagon on you, stop using buzzwords to sound like you know what you're talking about.

dude you hard core were fishing for wagons, you popped your vote down, saw someone vote me, and voted me because reasons. XD you are so anti town that if you arent scum you should re-evaluate your play style.

Lol . So now you're assuming every time someone puts down a vote, they're "fishing for wagons?" What even is that?
And regardless, that doesn't change the fact that there is STILL no wagon on you, which makes what you said STILL wrong.

Also, I thought I was your primary target? Why is your vote still not on me?

Finally, I'm "anti town" because I put votes on people that I think are scummy? Please explain yourself more here, because I'm not the person that has been misrepresenting people all of day two.

Spoiler: me "fishing for wagons"

Right so for loopdan you had 'condemning evidence' for me your gut is guiding you? Im getting ready to my reads with a little more content, maybe that will help/hurt your opinion of me. Honestly rereading loopdans interactions you read kind of scummy, I saw your push as town, but that flip hurt you in my mind, your attitude was cocky and you werent willing to look at anyone else, then we come into D2 and you are upset i ask you for more reads and tell you not to tunnel.

You're misrepping me right now, and this is a big reason you're a scum read. Because you regularly do scummy things like this.

I didn't get upset that you asked me for reads. Pretty sure I made that pretty clear.
I also wasn't upset that you asked me to stop tunneling people - you never did that, and you also agreed that I shouldn't stop tunneling people, so you know this, too, is wrong.

I was upset because you acted like you had some sort of control over my play "we arent gonna have you tunnel one guy."

As far as reading you for different reasons, pretty sure you agreed with me that something was wrong with the loopdan read, so OMGUSing me for approaching my other reads differently is also dumb. Stop.

I honestly could see an RCE/Thespio scumteam RN.

1. That's not true. Munch disagreed with everything I said yesterday, and you actually agreed with me for the first part.
2. It is misrepping me, show me where I posted that I was upset that you told me not to tunnel/asked me for more reads. Show me how I got upset about that. Cuz I guarantee this is not me being upset about reads:

You and Magik are funny like this, acting like you have any control whatsoever about how I proceed with the gameday or like I have any intention of going through another loopdan situation again. Not to be an ass, but I don't care if I have your approval for anything I do. I'd really like to see more involvement from you, too. Pretty much anything past surface level reads and bad implementation of game theory/ generally too scummy to be scum behavior.

It's not even me being upset about you thinking tunnels are dumb. It's me being upset about you saying "you aren't gonna do this."

And quit with the FOS crap. Put your vote on me and quit sitting on the fence. And again, that's not how my reads worked, you're assuming a position for me and then attacking that instead of responding to what I'm actually saying.

This is another reason you're scummy, you're going to try and get me all riled up by responding w/ OMGUS, and when that doesn't work (again) you're going to be like "this is TvT" (again) and then assume everyone will townread you.

I can case you later but you've done a load of scummy stuff this game.

I'm still disinclined to believe that scum!Enter would do such a massive deathtunnel and draw so much attention to himself Day 1 knowing that Loop would flip town. That doesn't really make his play good, since it definitely hasn't been most of the game, but his motivations aren't reading sour to me as much as overly eager to case people instead of thinking everything through.

This was my initial thought, but the fact he lynched based on his own sense of logic D1 and now is fishing for wagons D2 to me seems utterly susp. Also why would he defend munch? is it not normal to say you made a mistake and look at the people who did too (intentionally or not?) The fact his wagon is all town but they lynched a townie is super sketchy to me.

LOL. Two things:
1. You pushed loop.
2. You pushed elements.

You pushed one more town wagon than I did. You pushed a PR to the point of claiming. "the fact they lynched a townie is super sketchy" actually wtf.

1. Munch agreed with you and hes near the top of your town list. Point made.
2. Any time you have to say "Not to be an Ass" its you being an ass. Unless you are naturally an ass (which I interacted with you and thought you werent) it tends to be because of emotional turmoil.


2.5 IM NOT VOTING YOU BECAUSE I WANT TO LOOK AT MUNCH AND RCE. You getting on me seemed off though which is the purpose of my post, you arent my first or second pick, but the guys i want arent engaging with me or in munches case interacting with anyone because they are opportunistically posting.

Thats where I am at.

1. Munch disagreed with me on both Loop AND elements. This is what you get for skimming my ISO instead of actually reading it.
2. You're misrepping me and hiding behind "you're a jerk." Stop. That's not an excuse.

You pushed a PR to the point of claiming. "the fact they lynched a townie is super sketchy" actually wtf.

Let me just stop this right there. As I said in my response to Muh pushing on people gets more information about their alignment, and is generally a good thing to do if something is off there. The fact that it was a PR that was acting scummy and got pushed doesn't mean jack about the validity of the push, and Elements himself said that the points made against him were valid. This is not something you can hold against him like this.

His point is that you're townreading anyone who sided with you to kill Loop, and that is still pretty valid looking at your current readslist. Muh is actually a prime example of it in action, since you've said that Muh clearly had a reason to scumread Loop before your case pushed him into action, even though Muh never once put said reasoning out. It's altogether easy for anyone to say "Oh yeah, I totally believed this before your case", and I find it concerning that you just took him at his word.

I feel like this is the second (third?) post where someone takes Thespio's 2(two) points, makes an excuse for one, and then tries to validate the other through some strange jump in logic, with the landing being the assumption that if the second point is correct, the first one also is.

Let's fix this here and now.
1. Elements wasn't acting scummy. He said things that sounded scummy, but he wasn't acting scummy. I have a feeling someone isn't going to read the whole thing that I'm about to say, will take that first sentence, talk about how THEY THOUGHT elements was scummy and then consider my entire first point defeated, just because that's how most of these engagements have gone so far. Why you shouldn't do that, is because this point is completely and totally irrelevant of whether or not elements was acting scummy or not, Thespio's point against me was that I pushed town to lynch and that somehow makes me scummy. My point in return, is that he pushed two town players, and one of them was a PR, so calling me on this is dumb.

2. No, he's saying I'm scumreading anyone who disagreed with me, and that's an important distinction to make, because that's ACTUALLY wrong, and not just a correlation between my reads and what happened yesterday, as I previously pointed out.

The part two of point two here, is that you're ALSO wrong, because muh did provide reasoning for his read (spoilered later) and in addition, you're assuming that my town read is based on the fact that they agreed with me.

Ah, classic Loop. Stalling the game and trying to push another lynch just to survive another day. First he tried to push my lynch but that didn't go anywhere. As soon as he saw the opportunity of another possible wagon on Elements, he jumped on it immediately.

Its less about rushing anything and moreso HE LITERALLY SAYS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS HIM DEAD. THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST POST OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE: Elements Everything put together against loop, even from what i see is only a fraction of how skummy this post is.

Sure his post was scummy but I still don't see it as a basis for a lynch. Thespio, when you said you would rather self-lynch than have a NL, isn't that sort of the same situation? In that situation, you want town dead for information. In Elements situation, he also wants town dead for information. What separates the two?

Muh is another player to watch out for. OMGUS is a terrible reason to vote anyone this late in the day, especially when the source of that OMGUS is from really early in the day. He's a SE player. If he was a newbie I'd be more lenient given that new players tend to make that argument fairly often, but he should know better than to lean on OMGUS as a reason even if it's just "fuel on the fire". That's not even mentioning the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line which is just terrible.

I'd also expect him to know how to prodge better than 306, but that's admittedly not very AI. He would've been better off saying "This is a prodge. Loop is still scummy", as that would count as enough content to reset the prod timer instead of making one of the worst nitpicks I've seen this game though. I have to wonder if he couldn't find anything better to poke at or something.

What so terrible about the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line? I've noticed that both you and Loop are both hunting for excuses to jump on wagons. First you both did it with my comment about "If you so strongly feel you're town" and then subsequently did it with Elements post. I know Loop is trying to get the wagon off himself, but I feel like you've been pocketed by him and are trying to save him no matter what chance you get.

Nobody else commented on that except for you two which just goes to show how you both are trying to reach at whatever you can get so that this Loop lynch doesn't happen.

Regarding the second point, I was skimming through the game and saw it. I knew if I said "Loop is scum" he would've thrown a fit so I avoided that.

Which fights do you mean besides Elements?

Thespio is still at L-2 and we have no idea why. That wagon was lost between the main fight. Same for PvtUrist, there was some talks of PvtUrist scum but that didn't go anywhere.

If anybody is thinking of hammering, they should wait until after Pvt posts something useful.

Please don't let a hammer drop without allowing me one more post.

I have updated reads but I'd rather wait until there is an intent to hammer.

And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

This feels weird to me. It seems like you're just buying yourself time.

Please provide a couple sentence (or even just bullet points) on why you think I'm scum.

Your play in general and because I'm still OMGUSing you from you ignoring me in the beginning of the game. Your attitude didn't help either when Enter called you out. This is the attitude I'm talking about

pedit: Wow Loop. I thought you'd be better than this as an IC. The pity play is not making you look good man, just sayin'.

100% fair. I'll own this. I'll also probably never IC again. You'll see post-game that I really wanted to make this game a positive experience for newbies because we tend to lose them nowadays. But this game smacked me in the face with the reality that I shouldn't be doing this if I can't devote the time and effort to the game.

To me it comes across as trying to get town's sympathy and felt fake to me. I share Enter's points about flip-flop voting, sheeping, etc so I don't need to restate those.

Anyway, I don't think there's a point in starting up another wagon at this point. The main event in day 1 was Enter vs Loop and I want to see this battle go out to till the end.

The only thing I would add to that post is that scum!Loop would have self-hammered here before town starting looking past Loopdan-Enter.

Can you clarify this? Why would a scum player self-hammer?

Here's the thing: Everybody posting here recently is showing genuine-looking frustration.

Both scum are likely among the inactive players:
Munchmellow
Elements
Muh316
PvtUrist

There's an outside chance of scum!Thespio. I've been going back and forth on that these last pages but can't nail him down.

I'd still like responses to 477 and for the five players above to chime in before end of day. And I'd appreciate being taken off L-1 until this happens to avoid an "accidental hammer" from one of the lurkers.

Don't you think there's a higher chance of scum being from the players that are on your wagon if you so strongly feel that you're town?

Magik, I think you're being pocketed. Loop's sweet talk might be getting to you.

1. Munch disagreed with me on both Loop AND elements. This is what you get for skimming my ISO instead of actually reading it.
2. You're misrepping me and hiding behind "you're a jerk." Stop. That's not an excuse.

Hmm, I must have misread him, regardless your bottom 3 are all people who weren't with you, and you were wrong, why are all the people on your wagon town?

2. Dude im not hiding behind anything, cool you think its susp i didn't want to hammer someone that evolved. I agreed he looked scummy until he got into it with you, as soon as he did i felt he was town, elements who hid all game, while actively watching the game. He looked scum, and when i was on V/LA he began posting. I didn't even see his PR claim until D2 because it ended before i could review what happened. More importantly, blaming the people who picked him up as susp on d1 is stupid, If anything it puts us as town. Loop flipped town, we read him as town at the end of the day, so we looked at the next susp player. Anyone who votes someone they think is town with a ton of time remaining is acting against town. If I kept my vote there I would have seen myself as scum.


PEDIT, i read your whole post you dummy.

1) Someone who lurks, shows up to post, calls someone town and votes them. These are all scum attributes. Im not saying the number of town you push makes you bad, the number of town you kill makes you bad. I didnt get on elements because i suspected a potential power role to post scummy things. And like I said above in this post, I was on V/LA when he came out.

2)Muh echoed you, hard, look at your own ISO. Make sure you arent reading people because they agree with you or you will get pocketed. which is what i think is going to happen in this game, today you will push me/horse, skum will wagon with you Then tomorrow they will push the other with you. then we all lose because you couldnt criticize people who agree with you.

Actually stop saying things that are objectively wrong. Muh is in the bottom three (technically four) of my reads list. You can't just cherry pick what you want to read and ignore the facts.
Also I haven't pushed Magik today at all.
Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

And we got down to deadline w/ no lynch. Who was it yesterday who said they'd rather lynch themselves (conftown) than no lynch? Oh wait.

Your reasoning over calling me scummy because loop flipped town is only reasonable considering the fact that having less town players is worse for town. Under that same reasoning, pushing town players to claim PR and get NK'd is also worse for town. => Your reasoning here is dumb, please drop it.

1. Elements wasn't acting scummy. He said things that sounded scummy, but he wasn't acting scummy. I have a feeling someone isn't going to read the whole thing that I'm about to say, will take that first sentence, talk about how THEY THOUGHT elements was scummy and then consider my entire first point defeated, just because that's how most of these engagements have gone so far. Why you shouldn't do that, is because this point is completely and totally irrelevant of whether or not elements was acting scummy or not, Thespio's point against me was that I pushed town to lynch and that somehow makes me scummy. My point in return, is that he pushed two town players, and one of them was a PR, so calling me on this is dumb.

What else was anyone gonna do to get some outside information going on here? There was no other "scummy acting" going on besides the lurking squad that wasn't going to respond in a decent timeframe to make the push worthwhile, which is coincidentally why the Muh wagon broke up Day 1. You're putting the blame on him for taking the only available road to try and get some better information on other players, which is overall not cool.

No, what's not cool is pretending a town flip means everyone on the wagon was scummy. I don't know how you still don't get the point of this: I'm not calling Thesp scum because he pushed elements and loop. I'm saying Thesp's reasoning for calling me scum based solely on the fact that I was on loop's wagon when he flipped town is bad, and showing him in an example that is easily accessible why that is bad.

2. No, he's saying I'm scumreading anyone who disagreed with me, and that's an important distinction to make, because that's ACTUALLY wrong, and not just a correlation between my reads and what happened yesterday, as I previously pointed out.

The part two of point two here, is that you're ALSO wrong, because muh did provide reasoning for his read (spoilered later) and in addition, you're assuming that my town read is based on the fact that they agreed with me.

Muh's reason is a very, very lackluster "I think it looks fake" with no explanation on why and "I agree with Enter on top of that". That barely qualifies as an explanation given how vague and easy to make up it is. Had he actually explained why it "felt fake" I'd be inclined to agree with you on that.

Also, you have yet to give us any information to the contrary regarding your reads. With a lack of information for why you read people as you do, we must fill in the blanks with what we see, and that's exactly what it looks like from the outside perspective. You have only yourself to blame for that by not explaining your reads basically at all unless you're tunneling them.

Let me get this straight: You are drawing assumptions instead of asking questions, and you're blaming me for your failure? How does this add up for you?

I'm not discussing muh right now, because if I do I'll be biased to TR him based solely on the fact that I'm in the middle of an argument with both of you, and you continuously misrepresent and fail to understand the points of my case. Once we have this worked out, I'm more willing to approach my reads from a place of dispassion and I'm less likely to put them somewhere other than where they really are.

Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

Elements with this string of posts, although he technically voted Loop and then called him Town, not the other way around:

post 562 seems utterly irrelevant to anything. Can people stop letting loopdan waste time and lynch him VOTE: loopdan

i don't think you're scum.

I think you are town

but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

this was poorly worded it sould've been: "

i think loopdan is town

, but his lynch will tell us the most information"

The wagon came shortly thereafter.

Oh I see what you're getting at. I disagree that that was scummy, but p sure we had that discussion before.

Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

Elements did:

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

This was his post after voting loopdan in post 163

I agree that you just being on the wagon doesnt make you scum, i do think like i said that the majority of your scum (as you pointed out there was 1 outlier) are all the people who didnt want to kill town. Why in gods green earth wouldnt i just have agreed with you as scum, you have a loud voice, your posts are walls, scum imo would want you pocketed, or want you to think they were in your pocket. seriously do the math, 2 of the 7 of us are bad, so only 5 town, scum would have spent most of yesterday preparing to ML today. so loopdans ML is where we should start, that makes horse town (admittedly this makes my munch read wrong) Munch town, im obv town. RCE is still in deep shit from their predecessor and they didnt vote to save town they just didnt vote at all.

Wait let me get this straight: Your argument is that scum guaranteed did not vote loopdan? LOL

Let's go down the list of reasons you didn't hammer:
1. WK points
2. Scummy quickhammers
3. Dragging out day for town points = more town points
4. Looked like loop would get lynched anyways and you'd get points for not being on it.

Now let's talk about how it's super funny that this reasoning appears out of thin air after we've been in day two for a while and it completely flips your munch read, but it makes so much sense to you? Lol

Oh I see what you're getting at. I disagree that that was scummy, but p sure we had that discussion before.

So if i said "Enter I think you are town" and voted you, that would make you tr me?

We already had this discussion. I can quote myself at you, or you can read my ISO. Either way, he didn't just say "loopdan I think you're town" and vote him. Pls stop cherry picking your arguments.

Ultimately elements was a mistake, but his string of posts was the most scum filled thing i had seen all game, loops activity made me see them as town, prior when they were avoiding confrontation i saw your point. So when i see yesterday, with the 5 of you on loop, 2 of those 5 ruled out (horse because he was on elements for legit reasons, and elements being dead, it leaves the remaining 3 as susp.

WTF are you misrepping here?

I didnt hammer because i wasnt online, when i posted intent i didnt get back on until he was dead. Im running theories here, your wagon contained scum. PERIOD. you are now in my bottom two because i miss read munch. so you are my first suspect.

and yes, i know he didnt in the same post, but he called him town, voted him, then called him town again. can you literally stop tunnelling and objectively evaluate your wagon? or is that to hard, at this point ignoring you progresses this game more then interacting with you. you arent building you are muddying the game.

Good. Vote me please.

First I want to get some things straight real quick tho:
1. The fact that elements was a mistake IS THE POINT. Loopdan was also a mistake, and the fact that you excuse elements but not loop is what I'm pointing out as flawed.
2. You've been misrepping me and "muddying the game" since I scumread you a couple posts ago, which is the same thing you did the last time I scumread you.
3. There is no wagon on you, stop using buzzwords to sound like you know what you're talking about.
4. Your argument is that loopdan flipped town => there was scum on his wagon. But what I'm trying to get you to realize, is that if Elements wasn't a PR, he also would have flipped town, and loopdan wouldn't have flipped at all. And you would be scumreading an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SET OF PEOPLE. Someone even dropped an intent to hammer on elements.

I'm pointing out how absolutely DEVOID OF LOGIC your argument is and you're calling me scum and misrepping me.

Also out of curiosity, what is it that you think that I'm misrepping you on?

You cant take any pressure, you get all flustered, feel like you are being misrepped which you arent. shitpost with stuff like this:

Wait let me get this straight: Your argument is that scum guaranteed did not vote loopdan? LOL

Let's go down the list of reasons you didn't hammer:
1. WK points
2. Scummy quickhammers
3. Dragging out day for town points = more town points
4. Looked like loop would get lynched anyways and you'd get points for not being on it.

which isnt even anything to do with my post.

M8 chill, im being objective, i didnt tunnel someone into oblivion, and even while questioning you notice i still have someone i suspect more. Ill grant you it might have been a mistake, but you still miss the mark everywhere else.

LOL who can't take pressure? I voted you and you reacted like this:

"we arent gonna have you tunnel one guy."

As far as reading you for different reasons, pretty sure you agreed with me that something was wrong with the loopdan read, so OMGUSing me for approaching my other reads differently is also dumb. Stop.

I did agree but you never progressed beyond that, you didnt push anyone else, when we have 4 active players (you, me, loopdan, and Horse) its hard to actually get accurate reads on anyone. Also the fact you see RCE as scum and me as scum confirms to me that you only scumread people who dont agree with you. You attacked Horse for the same thing, notice your reads, you put him at the bottom. I think everyone ought to seriously look at the fact you hard tunneled a townie yesterday and now you are trying to put shade on anyone who resisted or didnt vote your way. Its not missrepping when you literally post it

Rough draft:

Town

Skellen
Munch
Thespio/Muh
===
Magik
RCE

Scum

This is weird for me cuz I think there's prolly only one scum between Magik/RCE, but that's where I sit atm.

Oh dang there it is. You putting the people who didnt shift. Beyond that your reason for lynching me is that im omgusing, except im not, ive not voted you im reading your iso. i can summarize it:

Tunnels Loopdan
interacts with me (still tunnelling loopdan)
Tunnels Loopdan
Attacks Horse (still tunnelling loopdan)
Lynches Loopdan
Loopdan flips green
Puts everyone who was off loopdan or was hesitant to vote loop on their scum list.


I just want to know why you think scum werent on your wagon, and im not TR RCE you are just the most obvscum right now, FOS on Enter.

And yeah, it does have to do with your post, you said

Why in gods green earth wouldnt i just have agreed with you as scum

Please actually chill and pay attention

The first bit of 1066 is already being discussed between the two of you, so I'm cutting that piece out since it's no longer relevant.

Let me get this straight: You are drawing assumptions instead of asking questions, and you're blaming me for your failure? How does this add up for you?

Nice loaded question, but that doesn't do much to change the fact that you can't expect us to be able to read your mind. If you don't explain things you're just leaving yourself open to interpretation, which is your own consequence of not explaining them.

Take a moment if you need to to get over the arguments you've just been in/are still in, then please enlighten us on your reasoning instead of just tossing blame at us for misunderstanding your unexplained reads. That's honestly a better way to kill that off as an argument than arguing the validity of filling in your holes.

I'm not asking you to read my mind, I'm asking you to ask questions if you have them, because I, also, cannot read your mind and know what you need/want more information on.

There is no wagon on you, stop using buzzwords to sound like you know what you're talking about.

dude you hard core were fishing for wagons, you popped your vote down, saw someone vote me, and voted me because reasons. XD you are so anti town that if you arent scum you should re-evaluate your play style.

Lol . So now you're assuming every time someone puts down a vote, they're "fishing for wagons?" What even is that?
And regardless, that doesn't change the fact that there is STILL no wagon on you, which makes what you said STILL wrong.

Also, I thought I was your primary target? Why is your vote still not on me?

Finally, I'm "anti town" because I put votes on people that I think are scummy? Please explain yourself more here, because I'm not the person that has been misrepresenting people all of day two.

[Enter]

The worst part of this is the fact that this whole time Magik could be helping, but I get the feeling he doesn't like me so he'd rather watch me flounder for words with Thespio and argue semantics an attempts at moral high ground than actually fix this situation, and in the meantime Thespio is sitting here making arguments for me being scum and I can't even get to why I disagree with his arguments because the basis behind his arguments are inherently flawed.

To top it all off I have the same dilemma today that I had yesterday w/ Loopdan: Does bad play excuse scummy play?

[Enter]

Yeah, no dice Enter. Telling me to take his words and put them in a certain way only manipulates the result. That wouldn't be my case at all, nor would it be his. That's aside from the fact that I'm already having difficulties understanding everything going on in this muddy mess, and I'd rather not waste my time trying.

As I said you're both flipping out here, and I don't think either side is truly listening to the other fully.

Yeah. The worst part is I'm tempted to TR him, but I hate positively responding to emotional outbursts like that or even encouraging discussions to be had in the manner we just had it.

I feel like people are looking to me to lead town again today (and maybe I'm off in this) but I really honestly don't want to after yesterday. I don't feel strongly in any of my reads, I can give basic explanations for them later, but my Thespio push is an attempt to sort. I was kind of hoping to see someone else take an angle on this and push it somewhere that made sense.

[Enter]

Oh i see where the communication failed. I dont think that makes you someone fishing for wagons. Also not sure why the mod said that RCE was right about a vote being on me if they didnt actually vote me. but whatever. maybe i misunderstood it, saw you jump your vote and your reason wasnt really a reason. That to me looked like an opportunistic, fishing for wagons. Then your reaction seemed super antagonistic and survivalist and you had no votes which seemed off. Can we look at RCE now? you arent my #1 he is, and honestly now that i understand what you were talking about i wouldn't say you are in my bottom two anymore.

Were on better grounds in my mind, sorry about the doubt, i stand by that some evil bastard was on your wagon. perhaps PVT being afk is why they didnt hammer.

Yeah we can talk about RCE. I agree he's my #1 as well.

[Enter]

I think I feel better about Thesp town now.

VOTE: RCE

[Enter]

I don't think "scared" is the correct word.

I'd like to see town play from magik and RCE today.

[Enter]

I don't think "scared" is the correct word.

I'd like to see town play from magik and RCE today.

I'd like to see town play from you too.

I'd like to see you have reads and push them.

And "frustrated" might be a better word.

[Enter]

I'd like to see you have reads and push them.

And "frustrated" might be a better word.

I have a scumread on Muh and am actively pushing things on him and countering his points against me. What more do you expect right now?

Alright, I think I see the problem. Gimme a sec:

I'd like to see you have reads and push them.

And "frustrated" might be a better word.

I have a scumread on Muh and am actively pushing things on him and countering his points against me. What more do you expect right now?

Looking over muh all he does is echo, but just a tone less aggressive than who he is echoing, there’s no original arguements, the verbage they use give them an out, if we flip RCE and they are green muh could easily say they were hesitant on the wagon and that they weren’t going all out. I want rce to stop being lazy and engage but that makes me feel like they are town, certainly scum would be more survivalistic. This makes muh a my new #1 and RCE a close second.

VOTE: Muh

You are going to drive me insane. I don't know why this is so funny to me, but it is. Alright. Anyways, back to the point:

Here's what (I think) the big problem is:

muh: I want all of your thoughts. Don't quote anyone, if you can avoid it. (Post numbers are fine, it's hard to follow train of thoughts through quotes, however). It's fine if you summarize your scum reads at the moment, but I'd like you to talk in depth at least on all your town reads.

Munch: Same thing. Only your town reads (we have your scum reads already) although if you want to talk about anything new you've found as far as scum are concerned, I don't think anyone's stopping you. If you just want to talk about how your reads have changed from yesterday and the like, that's also fine.

Thespio: Also, if you would be so kind, drop all your town reads. Explain in detail.

I don't care if these take a couple days to work on and they don't have to be huge. Basically what this is a consistency check (so we can observe opportunism later in the day/ check against past/future reads/ look for scumbuddies when someone flips later). I think this should significantly clear up reads.

[Enter]

I honestly don't care if Munch answers my question, I asked it because RCE hasn't and I wanted people to see why I'm townreading her. I think the last two posts are indicative of what I mean. For further evidence you should look at our discussion at end of day yesterday.

I have no intention of ever seeing a Munch lynch go through to the amount that I can control it.

[Enter]

Just funny things I've noticed:

VOTE: Muh

he's still voting me

[Enter]

Yeah that's pretty hilarious?

You seem unsure.

[Enter]

4. Your argument is that loopdan flipped town => there was scum on his wagon. But what I'm trying to get you to realize, is that if Elements wasn't a PR, he also would have flipped town, and loopdan wouldn't have flipped at all. And you would be scumreading an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SET OF PEOPLE. Someone even dropped an intent to hammer on elements.

I just want to point out, that it is majority to lynch, so 5/9. And if theoretically RCE still wouldn't be voting it's 5/8, so considering that, if elements wouldn't claim and would get lynched, 2 people would have to be the same (on both wagons).

I'm sorry. I've probably been awake for too long, but I'm not following what you are getting at.

[Enter]

Experience doesn't have anything to do with being overwhelmed or losing interest.

Or becoming extremely irritated with a specific player that shouldn't be lynched at this time.

The chance that he, also has hurt feelings over my play is very slim, I think, due to his posts showing no frustration with me. Your speculation here, therefore, is unnecessary. I'm sorry you got offended that I was wrong, but I feel like there's a bit of a double standard here in that you, also, were wrong, and you, also, helped push a Lynch while I insisted they were town.

Due to all of this and the fact that feelings have barely any place in mafia, may I suggest that we stop taking potshots at each other and win the game so we can both forget the other exists?

[Enter]

@Magik:
Please explain how the loopdan vote "reeks of convenience" in a way that a vote on any other player does not.
Here's how I see it:
At the time of Muh voting Loopdan there were three other viable wagons as shown here:

Vote Count 1.4

Thespio (3) -

PvtUrist 10

,

Munchmellow 140

,

Elements 149

PvtUrist (2) -

Elements

11

,

Skellen 118

,

Loopdan 125

MissDeadbeat (1) -

Thespio 100

,

Loopdan

109

Loopdan (1) -

Enter 130

UNVOTE/Not Voting (2) -

Skellen

5

,

PvtUrist

5

,

Munchmellow

5

,

Elements

5

,

MissDeadbeat 5

,

Enter

5

,

muh316

5

,

Thespio

5

,

Loopdan

5

,

muh316 101

The only way that I see it being "convenient" for muh to vote Loopdan is if the other wagons were on scum, and since there's only two scum in this game, that's not possible.
Not even considering the fact that you're implying that you, Thespio, and/or RCE is also scum, but I'm having trouble finding your case for ANY of them being scum.

You just managed to write three paragraphs of words accusing him of agreeing with me and pushing for the lynch of the player he thought was scum.

In addition to you accusing him of this, the irony of the matter is that you're in a pretty similar place. A large majority of your posts are large sums of words that defend Loopdan, defend yourself, and talk about how muh was scum. This is what I was talking about earlier when I meant I'd like to see you push something. If you think that just pushing Muh as scum is fine and fulfills that requirement, fine, but I'm going to hold you to that, and you can't call someone else out for doing the same thing.

[Enter]

That wasn't about him as much as myself as a decently experienced player who feels this way. You took this as referring to him, even though it was never meant to.

Still, I'm more offended that you're repeatedly refusing to listen than being wrong. Town will blunder about, make mistakes from time to time, and overall be wrong and I blame nobody for that. Doesn't change the fact that the fewer interactions we have between each other, the better.

You're right, I did make an assumption here that I shouldn't have made. I will try to justify it, however, by asking why on EARTH you were talking about yourself here, that doesn't push the game forward in any form or fashion. Please find a way to get over your feelings and play the darn game.

Also, RCE says things in a sensible manner, that doesn't make the things he is saying sensible.

[Enter]

Alright, here's my problem with the game right now:

If I am wrong in my reads today, we will likely go to LyLo tomorrow, so it's really important that I'm right.

There are a couple major forces pushing for lynches today. There's a Muh push (which I'm hesitant on), a Munch push (which I'm opposed to) a Thespio push (which is viable, but I'm not sure about) and an RCE/Magik push which I've grouped solely because I feel identically on them (the pressure is mostly off of my opinion of what is and isn't town play or correct play as well as PoE.)

I also recognize that my reads this game were very wrong as far as Loopdan is concerned and I probably have little more trust in my current reads than RCE does, so here's my plan to rectify the situation:

At some point today I will draw up everyone's reads in my own post and words to the best of my ability and then also case them (including other people's cases) to the best of my ability. I will try to keep it relatively short and not get too wordy with it. If I write something wrong, don't crucify me, this is why we're doing this. Just tell me what you disagree with and we will get it all worked out.

After we have fixed everything, we will then work from there. Dog d good?

[Enter]

Ugh, that sucks.

I'm really sorry I thought we had more time in the day phase, and I'm not feeling really good right now. I'm gonna go to sleep. If I for some reason don't wake up in a normal time frame I support Magik and RCE lynches.

[Enter]

I recognize how crappy that is, I wanted to fix the problem of today being a whole bunch of weak arguments and general confusion and try and get everyone on the same page, but honestly it's more work than I'm willing to try to invest in <16 hours.

[Enter]

I forget how much I hate not knowing if I'll be there tomorrow. There's so much I want to say, but if I say it, it doesn't help. The more I think about this game, the more it feels like it's a puzzle with a single piece out of place.

I don't know if it's the lack of evaluation this game or the stubbornness regarding reads. I can't put my finger on it but it's made me less invested in the game. Skellen is still trying to gamesolve so that's probably selfish of me. Her and Magik I probably never lynch.

Skellen to answer you partly. It's not that I feel there is doubt, the alternative I posed is unlikely but to me is the only way that Munch is town here fmpov. Thus my surety on her flipping scum.

If Muh flips scum munch is just the partner, I doubt much vs Magik today was scum theater, Thespio would deserve some consideration. I know you discounted Munch/Thespio together and I think the logic is sound there.

Munch/muh would fit the scum apathy theory Loop brought up and based on both day 1 wagons being town it points to the advocates/sheep votes and not the leaders of the lynches.

Enter this probably narrows your Poe down to just me but afaik your accusations on Magik/less so loop were in part for leading a counterwagon in Elements. I don't see the scum motivation behind getting Elements wagon going when a strong wagon against Loop as town was already rolling. Sure it makes sure at least one of the two flips and the danger of a wagon flipping on scum is nullified but it was pretty apparent Loop was going to be lynched despite his VT claim.

The problem is I definitely see where you're coming from. And... I usually agree on the whole apathy thing... but the discussion I had w/ Munch at end of day made me almost certain she's town. If someone can read through that and tell me they think she's scum, that's fine.

Maybe I'm old, maybe mafia has changed a whole lot since I last played, but I tunnel people. A lot. It's a thing I thought I was pretty good at (I used to be pretty accurate, if I remember correctly) and I'd open almost every game taking everyone out of RVS with a pretty hard tunnel. And I used to be able to tell who was scum and who wasn't (with some degree of inaccuracy, but it was pretty good) based on how players reacted (even the player I was tunneling.) The "You could be anyone IV" was a great example of that.

But this game I actually cannot tell. Loopdan reacted how I expected scum to react, how I've seen them react (I wasn't even really meaning to tunnel him, just shove him in the right direction), but everyone else has played a pretty solid game. Which makes me feel bad, because once I was certain loopdan was scum and my push turned into a tunnel, I felt certain in my ability to find scum based off of that, and now I just feel like we're in a really messed up state.

So big props to scum. You've really played well on this one. Whoever it is, you've got me all befuzzled, and even the other people here are just trying to PoE because almost everyone makes sense as town.

Btw, @Enter, after making your case against Loop and Thespio being his partner, you said PvT is town. Why did you think that?

It was based on loop/Thespio being scummier than PvT and I couldn't see the two being on a team together. Loopdan flipped town => Pvt is pretty null.

I figured out what your avatar was, BTW. Took me awhile, I know, but I didn't see the blue man in the background 'til I started actually looking to sort how you were reading each player.

BTW, would you agree that your reads are something like this:
Enter - town
Skellen - town
Magik - scummy
RCE- scummy
Muh - scummier
Thespio - scummiest

@All, ill be using some V/LA I just got a job offer at a competing firm, I will still try to reply to Munch, and contribute but for the next 3 days ill be V/LA as i switch jobs!

Congratulations!

Anyways. Kinda big post coming up in a sec.

[Enter]

So, this game is rough. I went back through Skellen's posts to see what she's thinking, but her thoughts pretty much just mirror my own.

I have two options here, I think:

1. Ignore my experience that insists that activity is not alignment indicative and consider Munch/Muh.
2. Ignore the debacle that was yesterday that insists that accuracy is not always indicative of scum and consider Magik/RCE.

[Enter]

Lol I feel for you man, the curse of being a universal townread.

Ha. What a curse.

Let's weigh our options:

Muh: Doesn't post much, but when he does post, I agree. Maybe he's got me in his pocket, but the things he writes make sense to me. If I scumread Muh, I think I also have to scumread Munch, because I don't see him being scum w/ RCE/Magik
Magik: Posts a lot of things I disagree with. Insistence on Loop being town seems like a white knight (because I was pretty convinced he was scum, as was a lot of the rest of town). I can see where he comes from, sort of, where he says things opposite to me because he's frustrated with my disagreement. However, even in the past when I've defended someone, I've noticed when their nose is up my rear, and if I ever see someone manage to sweet talk Magik like Loop did again, I'll probably get diabetes on the spot. Trying to get white knight points for loop makes sense from my perspective, however, because that whole day I could tell loop was probably going to be lynched. So. Did Magik just have really good reads when it came to loop, but bad ones as far as elements was concerned? Did he also manage to not notice the way loop talked to him, reacted to him, or does he not care?
The other problem with Magik: I've had to ask him for reads past his initial entrance. I don't know about the rest of the players, but usually when I play mafia and I don't know what to do or where I'm going, I just drop reads. It's a pretty good way to catch people up on where you are in the game and you can all help each other get on the same page. Unfortunately, Magik has done little this game except push elements and defend loop day one, and push muh day two. Is he so certain muh is scum? Maybe PoE. If I scumread Magik, I think I also have to scumread RCE, because I don't see him being scum w/ Muh (maybe munch?)

TL;DR
Muh
- Low activity
- Had to ask for reads
- would have to scumread Munch
Magik
- Good read on loop (when p much no one else did)
- Bad read on elements
- Had to ask for reads
- would have to scumread RCE

---

I don't know, but I'm leaning Magik over Muh here.

[Enter]

This is particularly difficult, because I would normally townread both of these players pretty hard (I think), but I can't just put Magik and Muh together. (right?)

Munch: Low-ish post count. Again, when she posts, I don't necessarily agree, but I can see that argument coming from town. Big seller for her on the townread yesterday: the conversation we had over elements/Loopdan. Big reason she might be scum: She's currently pushing Thespio -which is normally a good idea, but when we're crunched for time, we should try to keep it to people who have been discussed in detail and have some pressure on them for a lynch and while Thespio is kind of scummy, he hasn't been in discussion for a large portion of the day (or maybe he has, this day flew by) and I don't feel comfortable with a flash wagon at this point.
RCE: Makes a lot of sense. Says a lot of sensible, relatable things. But he says things I remember being like "that's actually wrong" - for example, when discussing elements/loop for which lynch gives us more information. He also works with Magik in a lot of things, it looks like, but not directly. And for some reason his tone goes... weird... sometimes and maybe that's just my brain being picky. I think I would normally townread this player, but we're in a tough spot and I can see most of his play coming. He also brings up things that pinged me the first time I saw them (but disregarded because I was distracted by loop) like this:

muh opened with a self-vote in RVS. I really dislike that. I have only ever once been tempted to self-vote in RVS and that was when I was scum and too scared to vote anyone else for fear it might give away who and where my partner is. I wanted to call Muh out for it, but loop was so scummy so I jumped him instead. This might be what pushes me over the edge, though, to voting Muh/Munch instead of RCE/Magik. This is .. hard.

TL;DR
Munch:
- Low-ish post count
- Townsided posting
- Discussion over elements/loop
- Pushing Thespio
RCE:
- Sensible/Relatable
- NAI
- Discussion over elements/loop
- Weird tone
- Works with Magik a lot
- Makes good points.


I don't know if you guys see this how I do, but in a strange way, I see a lot of similarities between Muh and Magik in my head, and same for Munch and RCE. This is truly difficult. It might come down to me voting Muh because of his opening post. I don't want to do that. I want to blame scum having day talk, but I legitimately feel like every one of these players would make town feel weaker if they were gone. I don't think I've ever played in a game where it was so darn difficult to see someone is scummy or not scummy, and I definitely don't think I've ever congratulated a scum player on their play before and been sincere about it (and definitely not before the game was over).

[Enter]

It might be that my pride is the largest item standing in the way of a muh vote, and while I sincerely hope that's not the case, I'm starting to believe that it might be.

... Screw it. 1205 looks like town!Magik. I think I can see scum!Magik unvoting for town points and then trying to re-vote later to hammer Munch (if for some reason a wagon appears on her), but looking at the vote count right now... Magik and RCE could hammer Muh, but they haven't. RCE hasn't even set up for it. I don't know if they're trying not to end up in the VCA at end of day, but at this point I'm starting to sound really paranoid - moreso than calculated.

You have the benefit of the doubt, today, I think. Day ends in <6 hours. I feel really crappy about this, but this is my leap of faith:

VOTE: muh

That's L-1.

[Enter]

You know I'm not budging on Magik, you'd have to convince the rest of town.

You're not helpful.

[Enter]

I'm going to bed. I can still swap my vote in the morning if I realize that everything I did tonight was based on sleeplessness and there's a wagon on someone else that looks really sensible.

[Enter]

I know this is my fourth post in a row and at this point I'm bordering on terrorism. I apologize.

I'm going to bed. I can still swap my vote in the morning if I realize that everything I did tonight was based on sleeplessness and there's a wagon on someone else that looks really sensible.

By wagon on someone sensible, I mean a sensible wagon on someone sensible. If you put Skellen at L-1 and expect me to hammer I'm just going forget this game ever happened and hope someone NKs me tonight.

[Enter]

So the words in my previous posts aren't coming out like I mean them to, but I hope you see what I mean.

I see what you mean on RCE, munch. I do want to say that it's also really weird RCE scum reading the slot that he replaced into. That's also something that I have only ever done as scum. I honestly don't know.

UNVOTE:

I'll vote again before I leave in the morning (an hour or so before day end). RCE is.. yeah

[Enter]

VOTE: Muh

[Enter]

Who was on when day ended yesterday?

also

@mod I'll be v/la until 16 feb due to visiting family and moving overseas. I should be able to check in every day still, just letting you know in advance

[Enter]

VOTE: Muh

We're in LYLO right now. It's not a good idea to throw around votes like that. Putting someone at L-2 can easily turn into a scum rush and we'll lose.

@Munch, what happened? You missed the vote by 6 minutes.

@Enter, weren't you supposed to come online after you had unvoted me?

Don't worry, I can math, but you're not at L-2 yet.

If you were town, you wouldn't be asking the questions you're asking.

And TBH I'd like to have been, but I didn't wake up to my alarms. Sucks, doesn't it?

We're making up for it today.

[Enter]

If you were town, you wouldn't be asking the questions you're asking.

Why's that? A no-lynch is definitely more advantageous for scum. The two of you were responsible for the hammer on D2.

Anyone present was responsible for the hammer on D2.

But I think I see where you're coming from now? Still feels wrong and I expect differently from you.

This day is a mess.

[Enter]

Anyone present was responsible for the hammer on D2.

But I think I see where you're coming from now? Still feels wrong and I expect differently from you.

This day is a mess

Yeah it kind of pisses me off, munch should have just hammered, now we are in LYLO and we could have got scum, still think its muh but im not going to vote until later in the day to avoid a lolhammer loss.

MyLo, not LyLo, but same concept since we're not no lynching.

Honestly?

We flip muh right now. I don't see a point in waiting. What are we going to get out of the day?

Either we're wrong and scum get a win, or we're right and we get another chance.

[Enter]

Also Im trying to deduce why scum would kill skellen over Enter, skellen wasnt as townie as enter is.

1. I thought Skellen was the obvious choice for the kill last night, but I can see why you would disagree
2. Because they thought I was more likely to vote Magik/RCE.

[Enter]

1. I thought Skellen was the obvious choice for the kill last night, but I can see why you would disagree
2. Because they thought I was more likely to vote Magik/RCE

So based on that your belief is its Muh/Munch? they kept you alive to lynch them? I feel like if im scum I kill munch, I do want to know how munch fucked up the lynch. With so little time left and having everyone posted, Im also assuming muh is claiming VT based on their reaction to yesterday.

Makes no sense for scum to kill munch, she's the most obvious lynchbait in the world right now.

[Enter]

Makes no sense for scum to kill munch, she's the most obvious lynchbait in the world right now.

True, the missed Lynch is very baity, something in my gut has always made munch feel off to me. but Im not going to touch that until tomorrow I guess, I still think we should give everyone time to talk and hope we can catch a slip up.

I refuse to jump on a lynch based on one post, and you should as well based on the elements push.

Vote muh and let's get this over with.

[Enter]

There are 6 people, so we need 4 to hammer. You're at L-3 for now, not L-2. Stop worrying about quickhammers, because they're not gonna happen rn.

Even then, I take it that Enter has reread a lot of things given how he's come in swinging, and on Muh? Mind explaining the change from defending Muh to pushing him? Anything else you've thought about overnight than just Muh?

Not really interested in casing right now. Not really interested in anything but a muh lynch. Vote him w/ me.

[Enter]

Occam's razor - I make less excuses for muh to be scum than I do for anyone else.

[Enter]

Not really interested in casing right now. Not really interested in anything but a muh lynch. Vote him w/ me.

This seems oddly familiar...

Oddly familiar to what? Please remind me this game when I refused to case someone.

[Enter]

Not really interested in casing right now. Not really interested in anything but a muh lynch. Vote him w/ me.

This seems oddly familiar...

Oddly familiar to what? Please remind me this game when I refused to case someone.

I'm referring to the second part.

I know. And I'm referring you to the former, because it foils the latter.

[Enter]

I had two failures with loopdan
1. His play was poor.
2. I cased him so much and based so much on my reads around him that I could see nothing other than scum on him.

I am not casing you, this is a new perspective I have seen upon review, and your play wasn't necessarily poor as town or scum.

[Enter]

Can we actually wait until everyone's gotten a chance to post. We might have a tracker who had a successful night action.

Stop talking about PRs. Trust that I know what I'm doing.

No one respond to muh on this matter.

[Enter]

No, it's important we talk about PRs. If I get lynched we lose the entire game.

UNVOTE:

We're not talking about PRs.

[Enter]

We can wait for munch to appear if you'd like, but we're not talking about PRs.

[Enter]

Alright so scum can't quickhammer you, muh. There's too many people off your wagon. You have a voice. Give me your reads, your reason we should lynch Magik over you, and never bring up PRs again and I'll give you a little time before we put you in the ground.

[Enter]

Wow. Ok, I said we're not talking about PRs.

VOTE: Magik

Actually stop.

[Enter]

I'm interested in this lynch. This is the second time this game we've established something as anti-town and magik continues to partake. Also, it makes sense why he killed who he did last night - he thinks there is no PR.

This is a real vote. I expected RCE and Magik to jump on muh as scum, RCE to maybe wait a bit.. Magik says too many words and it makes me uncomfortable when he put his vote down and RCE had no hesitation.

[Enter]

I find a Doctor claim heavily unlikely, as the only way for there to be a Doctor is if Elements jailed them and the Doctor therefore didn't stop the kill or WIFOM'd themself into thinking the Mafia wouldn't kill the obvious target and waste their night action (or the Roleblocker blocked the Doc, but then why isn't the Doc dead? That line doesn't work out right).

Tracker is a maybe, but even then it's easy claimspace for a Goon to pull off to drive Town towards a mislynch since it can't be counterclaimed in a 2 Goon setup with a Jailkeeper. Heck, I'm pretty sure this was on Elements' mind given that they let slip that they were either a JK or Cop in post 898 ("So the mafia can't deduce the other PR. Unless they're both goons in which case they don't rlly care", insinuating that they were a role in a 2 Goon setup that had a chance to have no partner). I noticed that slip way back then, but kept my lips shut on it for obvious reasons.

Either way a Tracker claim alone isn't enough for me to believe their information so what's the point of worrying about it? If you flip Rolecop maybe I'd believe a Tracker claim, but right now I don't have faith in that as an option so it's not on my mind.

You had this crap prepared for the lynch, lol. Almost guarantee you copy/pasted out of a file you have stored on your computer.

...The only problem is that you would know about PRs as scum w/ a jailkeeper flip.

[Enter]

Actually that's a reasonably large complication. Because you would have known.

Munch I need your thoughts on this.

[Enter]

Alright so either we're right or we're deeply wrong.

At this point it doesn't matter, because we either have both scum pinned or neither. So we'll do it like this.

I've been pretty sure since night one (I suspected day one) since I've been calling this player scum in an attempt to keep him low on the scumdar. I have an explanation that makes a lot of sense here, but first I need to verify,.

Thespio, you should claim now, prolly just so we can end this madness.

I admit this is a little self-indulgent on my side, but if I'm completely wrong on him, we should lynch now rather than later.

[Enter]

I know you said no PR talk, but I had to shut down the "what if there's a Tracker to claim stuff?" excuse off entirely, and that does the job pretty darned well dont'cha think?

I never said I thought there was no PR. I just said a claim alone isn't enough to make it believable at this point in time, as there's only about a 50% chance of it being legit. This is a presumption you've made.

That's fair

UNVOTE: .

I'll believe a specific claim from a specific player, that if it comes out correctly it explains pretty much everything.

[Enter]

Yeah, I've gotten that vibe off of you.

The self-indulgent one?

[Enter]

That's fair. I guess I knew I was presumptuous but it does come to the foreground until someone brings it up. Thanks.

[Enter]

Enter you're gonna give me a complex...

Ha. I'm sorry. I'm a bit... erratic at the moment and I'm scared of a scum win. If they do win and all this time I've known what I know, I'll be very disappointed, so I figured I'd at least give it one more ballsy toss at the wall.

We we will do it like this. Thespian will claim and then people can say whether they think he's right or wrong and then we Lynch based off that.

[Enter]

Don't explain when you say why you think he's right or wrong. Just say what you think the correct answer is.

[Enter]

Yes. Claim please.

[Enter]

Who believes thespios claim

[Enter]

And I'm not senile. I play with purpose.

[Enter]

Still waiting on munch

[Enter]

I want to see Munch respond before we jump to conclusions. If you keep talking, muh, it's harder to see what thoughts are her own. We will talk right after munch posts.

[Enter]

I'll explain in a bit, but me being role cop makes extra no sense.

[Enter]

New dichotomy: magik/thespio vs muh/munch.


Ugh. Alright I don't want to go over why me being role cop is uber dumb, but I can if we need to. Whatever. Let's talk about Thespio claim.

I expected thespio to be PR because his play is risky and when he pushes he doesn't really follow for a Lynch - he plays like he's looking for information to act on outside of the game thread (town can only Lynch what looks like scum, PRs can protect who they thought would kill, etc)

TBH I thought he would claim doctor due to complaining about kill selection and his play is inconsistent with optimal play as far as his role is concerned. If he had a guilty on mug, he should have opened today with a muh vote. Also I don't like his "Lynch me" attitude day one, it's really sub optimal play as a PR. Also, trying to investigate me was probably a bad idea - why go after someone you think will flip town with a role that can't confirm town or not town? Among a bunch of other just suboptimals over his play that I'm too lazy to bring up right now. In addition, if muh is scum, why would he not just counter claim PR? This is the last day, and we don't know what we have. It's also interesting to me that Magik said its pretty unlikely we have a tracker claim and then thespio claims tracker and Magik is the only one to not ask questions. There's so much pinging me about this that I can't even constantly remember everything.

All that said, town makes mistakes, the things pinging me are things that could happen in the reverse situation, suboptimal play happens everywhere and it makes the game easy if muh is just scum. So I don't know.

Whatever it is, RCE is gonna be treated like conftown for the time being.

[Enter]

He didn't have conftown on me, I could have been the scum that didn't submit the kill. Which is why investigating me was dumb - you should look for someone who looks like they'll be scum, not someone you think is town but might be scum.

[Enter]

I think both targets are bad investigations. Neither make a ton of sense, but I've never pulled a PR in a newbie game so I guess I don't really have a point of reference.

I agree.

What are your thoughts on the whole "no result" mafia theater played out by magik and thespio?

[Enter]

Yeah, Magik is town here.

VOTE: muh

Glad we waited for munch response, I would have felt uncertain if we hadn't seen a second defense of him as town.

And yeah I agree that there's a lot of stuff that went wrong here, but things go wrong and people make mistakes. I think game is probably solved.

[Enter]

If muh or munch are scum, one of you should have counterclaimed thespio, prolly

[Enter]

If muh or munch are scum, one of you should have counterclaimed thespio, prolly

Right, I've been on this site for almost 10 years now. If I was scum that is exactly what I would have done to create confusion in the town.

UNVOTE:

Damn it. I agree with you and there's so much that feels wrong about this... but thespio played like a PR or scum p much all game.

[Enter]

I think I need to reread. I don't trust myself at this point. I hate this game.

[Enter]

I want your take on everything right now. I think I'm biased to want it to not be muh so I feel like less of an idiot, but I also don't want to try and counter that feeling and make an even more dumb decision. I guess what I'm saying is I'm not feeling super logical right now and I want to just jump on the simplest explanation.

If you would also help me work through why thespio didn't open today with a vote on muh if he had a guilty on him, that would also be nice.

[Enter]

Muh isn't echoing people he was the first one to have thoughts on the topic (I actually held my thoughts for this purpose), it makes the most sense for you to PR claim as scum, and a whole bunch of other stuff I'm not even going to begin with. At this point I'm barely reading what you're posting, TBH, because I'm trying to discuss w/RCE so I can stay grounded

[Enter]

He claimed because I asked him to. He should have opened with vote but he didn't. The argument is dumb.

[Enter]

I'm saying it's dumb because both of you yelling at each other isn't helping me right now, not because the argument is dumn in and of itself.

[Enter]

@mod it still says Night 2

[Enter]

@mod it still says Night 2

Ninja'd

[Enter]

Thoughts on:

Nightkill

So Skellen does make sense for the nightkill, no offense Enter but Skellen was less set in her game view. Therefore I think less likely to be pocketed at any point. Muh/munch would have been in a good spot from day 1 just on the strength that they agreed against Loop. At the end of the day I don't think it makes a ton of difference given the push on muh end of day.

Day start

This will be short, neither Thespio or Muh do themselves any favors. Thespio should come out of the gate if his check is guilty. Muh brought this weird hypothetical where he's town but Thespio is also tracker. Not outright but in an implied way that sent shivers up my spine.

I think it's still worth going back and looking at day 1 considering most of the day Thespio was the counterwagon to Loop.

I also don't want to get into Magik and munch too much because I also feel biased that I was right on my town/scumreads but Enter and I have been on different pages of the same book for awhile now.

Enter what do you think about the day 1 wagons and specifically the end of day wagons. I'm mostly interested in how you feel the composition plays out.

Yeah I totally agree. I think I even said skellen was p obv kill.

I'll get to the wagons in a minute.

[Enter]

Something weird about day one wagons:

Thespio is one of the only two people to vote magik (it was when he was saying things about lurkers) but he calls Pvt scum (and there are other lurkers than MDb. Not super susp of this, but it's worth noting.(Lippmann is the other, don't wanna talk about him anymore)

Also magik is one of the three people to never vote thespio(muh didn't cuz he was following me on loopdan and loosen didn't... huh.)

The same three people that never voted thespio are also the only people to vote for muh. Not sure that's useful at all, but it's funny.

And no one voted munchmellow. Magik wasn't really around for Thespio wagon, so both of these scum teams were pretty relaxed during the big portion of the game

[Enter]

Even with Goon/Goon as a possibility, it's been pretty solidly established that Thespio has been playing like a power role enough that Enter detected those signs and called him on it. Either this is something Thespio had planned from the beginning of the game and put into their play so subtly that it got Enter thinking it or it's simply true to begin with.

Therein lies a point: it's nearly impossible to fake a PR's playstyle so subtly without underdoing or overdoing it (which either makes it unnoticeable or so blatant as to be useless), and doing so requires an exorbitant amount of skill. It makes no sense for Thespio to simultaneously be playing really awkwardly/poorly and with the near godlike skill and subtlety necessary to fake the minute signs of being a PR in this manner. Him being a legitimate PR is the only real way his play makes much sense, despite its weaknesses and the chance of 2 Goons.

This, but...

His play still kind of makes sense as scum... just less so.

Even with Goon/Goon as a possibility, it's been pretty solidly established that Thespio has been playing like a power role enough that Enter detected those signs and called him on it. Either this is something Thespio had planned from the beginning of the game and put into their play so subtly that it got Enter thinking it or it's simply true to begin with.

Therein lies a point: it's nearly impossible to fake a PR's playstyle so subtly without underdoing or overdoing it (which either makes it unnoticeable or so blatant as to be useless), and doing so requires an exorbitant amount of skill. It makes no sense for Thespio to simultaneously be playing really awkwardly/poorly and with the near godlike skill and subtlety necessary to fake the minute signs of being a PR in this manner. Him being a legitimate PR is the only real way his play makes much sense, despite its weaknesses and the chance of 2 Goons.

I wouldn't expect any less from his scum partner. You're stating his "Godlike skill" as fact whereas it's a matter of opinion.

Also, now that you brought it up, I never found out why Enter called him out for the PR claim. Enter, why did you think he's a PR?

He played like a PR. A lot of the time PEa come off as scummy because they'll ask questions without pushing scum reads or they'll be really pushy and such and this is because they have to know more than a VT to successfully pull off their Night Action.

I don't know if I believe it, because his claim was ... inconsistent with what I'd expect from him as far as investigations and reactions to such.

I don't know. I'm sorry I'm making a trip across the country at the moment, I can get to this in more detail tonight and tomorrow.

[Enter]

The only thing that would help, I think, at this point is if everyone cased their largest suspect and who they think their partner is - don't bother responding to each other, I think, and try and keep word count to a minimum. I'm trying to gauge some things that ... would help if I didn't have people arguing semantics in the thread.

Also, Thespian, walk me through the basic thought process for all your major actions this game, and munch walk me through your thought process for an end of day Lynch where you have two wagons at l-1 and you're the deciding vote

[Enter]

Muh how comfortable do you feel as scum and how comfortable do you feel as town?

[Enter]

Muh how comfortable do you feel as scum and how comfortable do you feel as town?

Could you clarify this? Are you talking about my meta?

You get a role pm for a new game.

What are your immediate thoughts/feelings when you see the text is red?
What about green?

[Enter]

Muh how comfortable do you feel as scum and how comfortable do you feel as town?

Could you clarify this? Are you talking about my meta?

You get a role pm for a new game.

What are your immediate thoughts/feelings when you see the text is red?
What about green?

When I see red it's usually a mix of excitement and nervousness. I'm excited because the role is a lot more fun to play . I'm nervous because it's harder to play scum because you know who's town/scum and have to lie and fake your actions. In this setup I do a lot of overthinking and re-read my posts over and over again before I hit submit.

When I see green it's a neutral reaction. I'm more carefree because I know I'm green and I shouldn't be lynched.

Thanks. This is kind of what I expected, but also what I was looking for. How many times have you played scum?

The only thing that would help, I think, at this point is if everyone cased their largest suspect and who they think their partner is -

don't bother responding to each other, I think

, and try and keep word count to a minimum.

I'm trying to gauge some things that ... would help if I didn't have people arguing semantics in the thread.

So much for this huh Enter?

No kidding. I'm not even reading it at this point (I'm sorry, I'm tired, I've been driving for 14+ hours) just the stuff I specifically asked for and posts that catch my eye.

I originally scumread Muh for their general lack of contributions and shadiness. Their Day 1 was utterly useless without any significant contribution whatsoever to the Loopdan wagon he joined aside from aggressive shading on me and Loop. Day 2 saw his case on me built around farming "townie points" while generally missing the town and meta side to my actions, which might ping me more than others as the one he was trying to case but now comes off as even stranger as he "liked my defense" and yet is still leaning on this same argument and vagueness. Now on Day 3 he has a claimed guilty on him, and even ignoring that is causing chaos all over the place by riling up Thespio (who keeps responding for who knows what reason? An urge to not let him get away with it?) while chasing after a Thespio/Magik scumteam which is essentially impossible since that team could easily have ended the game early Day 3 via an arranged quickhammer (and the same thing applies to Thespio/RCE).

Munchmellow is in a similar boat, and I went over most of it in 1360. To summarize Munch also gave no really notable contributions during Day 1 or 2, but with the added downside of not ever really bringing up or talking about Muh outside of their readslist and being vague regarding her reads on him altogether. On top of that she popped right out of the gates to his defense via a chainsaw attack on Thespio on Day 3, insinuating a scum connection between her and Muh. Recent developments have added what I said in post 1443 to the potential scumminess list, since she wanted to kill Thespio earlier for his "fakeclaim" and has suddenly backpedaled and said that Thespio is no longer on the chopping block, although I'm waiting for a response on this accusation.

Apologies if this is bigger than you wanted. If you've got any further questions, feel free to ask.

First, thanks for working with me. It's really nice.

Would you talk about riled up? Thespian looks like he's being more antagonistic than muh here, IMO, but your opinion would help, I think.

Now on Day 3 he has a claimed guilty on him, and even ignoring that is causing chaos all over the place by riling up Thespio (who keeps responding for who knows what reason? An urge to not let him get away with it?) while chasing after a Thespio/Magik scumteam which is essentially impossible since that team could easily have ended the game early Day 3 via an arranged quickhammer (and the same thing applies to Thespio/RCE).

If he's getting riled up it's because he's trying so hard to defend his lies. If he was actually confident in his claim he wouldn't be doing what he is doing now. I am also very frustrated with his fakeclaim which is why I'm causing this chaos.


As for the second part, you can't really make that claim and here's why.

I'm going to be using CST times here.

9:34 PM - 1288 RCE votes "much."
9:55 PM - 1290 Magik asks RCE to clarify his vote. At this point it would be far too risky for a Magik/Thespio team to quickhammer because they don't know if that's Muh or Munch.
10:14 PM - 1295 RCE votes muh
10:24 PM - 1296 Enter unvotes

The only time the scum team of Magik/Thespio could have hammered was inside that small 10 minute window. So it's entirely possible that both of you couldn't coordinate a quickhammer within that timeframe. That quickhammer argument of yours is invalid.

Yes but this same argument is why a me/thespio scum team is impossible: because I could have kept my vote on until Thespian hammered. The fact that you brought up that it might have been me/Thespio with this fact in mind is... interesting and has lead me to the line of questioning we are in right now.

I do know this, but a MYLO in a newbie game is the same thing as the last 2 minutes of the 4th quarter in Football, people tend to get in their own heads and flop. It took me years to get used to MYLO/LYLO and having a tracker claim that saves town from an early loss is not a bad deal.

I don't think the newbies in this game are dummies.

I agree.


==
I think based solely on occams razor that it's probably muh/munch.


RCE please look at my case and tell me if I'm going crazy:

1. Muh suggesting me as possible thespio scum buddy
2. Munch following my push on thespio yesterday
3. Munch missing hammer at day end yesterday (I know mistakes happen and I made the same mistake, but it adds up)
4. Guilty from Thespio (I'm basing my belief that he's a PR on the fact that he pinged me as a PR and the "no result" conversation seeming like it would be reasonable for him to get that and he wouldn't get it as scum. If this is something Magik and Thespio came up with... props to them)

There's a couple other tiny things I could call them scum for, but this is the foundation. I guess the other thing to consider is magik being a relatively strong TR from almost everyone (I think even muh munch? Maybe I'm wrong) until he became thespios only option as a scum buddy.

[Enter]

I agree.

VOTE: muh

[Enter]

Ugh. Should have lynched off the scum reading self upon appearing in that slot. Oh well. GJ, guys.

I can talk about why These looked like a PR but mostly he looked like he was scumhunting without scumhunting... which makes you look like scum and since no one else thought he looked scummy. Shows how much I know. Ha.

No lynching d3 would have put us in the same spot just with me dead.

[Enter]

I feel really dumb. I pushed Thespio day 2 because I thought he was a PR and I wanted to save him from a NK. And then munch pushed too and I was like "ha, she's scum cuz she's pushing someone other than the two people on the table today."

[Enter]

Great play by everyone, I think. I'm sorry I was so mean to you, Magik, I think in another life we would have been friends. This definitely didn't feel like a newbie in any way.

[Enter]

I'd like to see stats on the change in scum v town win after the addition of daychat if anyone knows where that is.

[Enter]

Munchmellow is really good at townposting.

Munch, I think you should be more confident in your reads when you have them. Even if you're wrong, being more forceful about your views provokes more alignment indicative reactions.

I was thinking this as well. The only reason people acupressure you was PoE? That's pretty solid.

[Enter]

I don't know why my phone auto-corrects scumread to acupressure.