Newbie 1920: North America [Endgame]

[Skellen]

At the moment, I don’t believe your case is enough for me to put my vote on ASC and his posts look town imo, at this stage it’s mostly based on guts. I think his rvs post might look scummy, but I don’t think you should make a case against that, I agree with his mentality and I don’t see that rvs coming from scum, because they want to lynch active townies, not lurkers who most likely won’t get any more than 2 votes on them until like Day3 or so.I believe in the innocent until proven guilty, and for now, your case didn’t change my perception on ASC’s alignment because it was an rvs vote you made a case upon.

Fair enough, in terms of mentality we just happen to have different views, but I can see where you are coming from at this one. Although I think you are focussed here too much on the RVS, which was the origin, but for me the behaviour later is more bothersome. Since he has joined the ranks of the inactives now it has become a dead horse anyway, so I can as well UNVOTE: TheASC

[Skellen]

1. Yes, the timing of his vote put it over the edge for me. But more so that I see nothing town-advancing in his ISO. His answer to question 2 suggests an aggressiveness that is lacking. His answer to number 4 is one word and not that accurate or helpful. But more broadly, it is the lack of any questions or desire to solve -- he joined a momentum wagon without contributing.

Regarding chennis I am with you there. It bothers me far more that he is chilling here with his ASC vote feeling all good with it (not that I disagree), but him not persuading ASC nor trying to win people over for the the ASC case although he is so convinced with his lynch gives me a negative impression too. I found his info on SR more likely being town due to playstyle useful though, even although I can only take it on face value as I have no time to check other player's games.

[Skellen]

Persivul seems to have some decent reading following his lynch which makes me inclined to believe he’s scumhunting even though he gave this reasoning later. I hadn’t realised Sekaedy voted me for... forced wording? “position myself wherever I see necessary” vs whatever exactly Sekaedy said... I initially thought he was voting me purely for RVS, or possibly a gutread. Posting on forums makes me feel like I’m writing a letter, so I wouldn’t be surprised if my wording came off a little stiff. Reading into that and using it as reasoning for a lynch without being explicit that’s the reason you’re lynching it is beyond me, though. teacher giving a townread for this is also strange - I would at least expect them to be reading, and wouldn’t townread someone for it. I would like to hear from Sekaedy himself though, rather than teacher’s commentary on it.

I think I asked you already that, but you didn't respond to it. On what exactly is your vote on teacher based at? I think originally it was that "make a joke" comment by teacher that threw you off, however teacher clarified in #62 this issue. Is it now because of his Sekaedy "townread"? I am wondering because you were on teacher as the first person and when he was the hot iron that got discussed today you were rather a bystander and didn't persuaded him further.

[Skellen]

Skelleden, I take it you're a rather analytical person, thoughts on my interaction with teacher? Do you support my read on him? I'd like to get ASC and Zeito on this as well.

Tbh I was a little bit indifferent, especially because I began leaning on town!teacher starting with his posts since #112 as these looked for me more like his usual informative posts that I know. I understood that his "townread" for Sekaedy's wording pinged you off. As I said I could follow you on this as I also think that it is a stretch. When I read that interaction first I was personally more interested on what assumptions this observation by teacher was based on as you two never came down on that but bantered about if Sekaedy did mirror Zeito's words (at least teacher) although the if isn't that interesting in this matter as it should be clear, hence my question in one of my former posts.

However I thought the push against teacher was standing on shaky legs. I took it that you were assuming scum!teacher and scum!Sekaedy and that was imo kind of a bit too speculative as basis for the assumption as we have basically zero on Sekaedy. My problem was that I couldn't see the necessity why scum!teacher would give such a strange townread on his inactive scum partner when it would have been more wise for him to just wait for the replacement who would have a fresh start from zero instead of this ambiguous townread.
On the other hand assuming town!Sekaedy I couldn't see the benefit of scum!teacher townreading an inactive town slot as it would gain him nothing.

Which is why I said I didn't agree with the reasons for the push. If these interactions had any effect, then that teacher imo solidified my positive impression about him because I liked how calmly he handled you without counterattacking you and instead staying true to the facts, although I would have liked some more explanation as I said.
I know you asked for my opinion on your read on teacher, but as I am late here and I noticed while skimming the thread that your read has changed I feel it's kind of pointless addressing this, but going by the time you asked me I would have disagreed with a scumread on teacher.

On the other hand I liked Persivul's #123 as I thought his reasons were pretty comprehensible, even although I thought that most of these points could have been handled with just asking teacher (which is exactly how some were resolved).

[Zeito]

I don’t like you townreading people based on wording, I didn’t even give that post too much attention since it was rvs. You town read people based on single posts, just like you did with wazoo. Your reads smell funny, you’re getting too defensive, which is what I wanted.

I do feel teacher has been making reads in strange places, although they have at least been making them. Sometimes I myself can make reads from places that seem very small, although usually this is in faster games. But if you find anything which doesn't make sense from a town perspective, I think it's fine to scumread off of that. I do also think they have the right to defend themself without being labelled as defensive - I can't be sure as to whether this is scummy or down to the player. I think your initial reasoning for voting him was fine, however.

Scum, I have no interest in continuing this if you aren’t going to answer my questions:

What specifically about my readslist smells fishy?
Do you now agree that your statement in 90 was wrong, and that sekaedy’s 41 did in fact mirror zeitos wording in 38?

I have no problem with you suspecting me, nor with your having different reads. I do have a problem with you ignoring the questions.

I told you, you’re just giving town reads based on single posts, like wazoo’s post or sekaedy’s post. I’ve already addressed this though, my case revolved around your first question lol

Even if I’m wrong, that doesn’t still refute my case on you, which was “who gives town reads based on somebody’s choice of words in a rvs vote” , so you still have no defence in my eyes.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I read off of single posts. You don’t. Ok. But “fishy” suggests it’s manipulated for ulterior motives.

Different reads does not mean different alignments. We clearly have different reads, but I think we have the same alignment. The key is to try to understand the other persons head - why they think the way they do, and whether it shows a consistent thought process and approach to the game.

Knowing what you know about my process, do you think somebody applying it would have different reads than I posted?

I'm not really sure why you brought up "I think we have the same alignment" in this post, it comes off almost as if you're trying to move them to your side. I'm starting to reconsider your lynch though, your responses seem mostly fine and it does come across to me as if you've been scumhunting.

Yeah, idk what happened, must’ve missed it. I don’t have the energy to have a debate on why your reads don’t benefit town, I’ll just leave you be.

VOTE: Wazoo

You’re still in rvs.

This is my new townblock:

Wazoo, teacher, me, asc and zeito, although I’d like more posts from both of them

What I find really weird here is why you suddenly townlock teacher after seemingly giving up on arguing with them and shifting earlier.

[GrandWazoo]

Skellen, if teacher looks more town from his 1v1 with SR, how does that affect your SR read?

[Zeito]

Yeah, idk what happened, must’ve missed it. I don’t have the energy to have a debate on why your reads don’t benefit town, I’ll just leave you be.

VOTE: Wazoo

You’re still in rvs.

Persivul seems to have some decent reading following his lynch which makes me inclined to believe he’s scumhunting even though he gave this reasoning later. I hadn’t realised Sekaedy voted me for... forced wording? “position myself wherever I see necessary” vs whatever exactly Sekaedy said... I initially thought he was voting me purely for RVS, or possibly a gutread. Posting on forums makes me feel like I’m writing a letter, so I wouldn’t be surprised if my wording came off a little stiff. Reading into that and using it as reasoning for a lynch without being explicit that’s the reason you’re lynching it is beyond me, though. teacher giving a townread for this is also strange - I would at least expect them to be reading, and wouldn’t townread someone for it. I would like to hear from Sekaedy himself though, rather than teacher’s commentary on it.

I think I asked you already that, but you didn't respond to it. On what exactly is your vote on teacher based at? I think originally it was that "make a joke" comment by teacher that threw you off, however teacher clarified in #62 this issue. Is it now because of his Sekaedy "townread"? I am wondering because you were on teacher as the first person and when he was the hot iron that got discussed today you were rather a bystander and didn't persuaded him further.

My vote on teacher was mostly based on my belief that chennisden seemed like an easy push after he decided to vote for TheASC only after somebody else did. The "make a joke" thing did come off as strange to me also. However, chennisden has done nothing to indicate to me that he is a easy push that flips town, so looking back I'm starting to feel more and more like his vote was justified. Regarding his Sekaedy townread, I genuinely have no idea why you would townread a player off of this still, it comes across more as lurking than anything, but iirc I placed my vote before this, so my original reasoning wouldn't've been based on that.

[Skellen]

@GW:
To begin with I usually have troubles with reading erratic players like SR. What indicates town in his case is his effort as he is aggressively lashing out in any directions to get a grip on other players. Although it bothers me that he tried twice to after the guy who hasn't even been in the thread for 2-3 days and is now finally getting replaced. In case of his interaction with teacher for me the most important post #152 is where he explains his motivation. I can sympathize with that attitude, because in my first game with teacher I had the very same mindset with instantly jumping at teacher at the first opening to get a better impression of his personality, even although definitely not that aggressive as SR does. Also I am doubting if scum!SR would have been that bold to provoke such a 1v1 with a player like teacher on Day 1 considering the attention it caused.

This is my new townblock:

Wazoo, teacher, me, asc and zeito, although I’d like more posts from both of them

What I find really weird here is why you suddenly townlock teacher after seemingly giving up on arguing with them and shifting earlier.

Personally I am more wondering how GW suddenly popped up there.

[Skellen]

My vote on teacher was mostly based on my belief that chennisden seemed like an easy push after he decided to vote for TheASC only after somebody else did. The "make a joke" thing did come off as strange to me also. However, chennisden has done nothing to indicate to me that he is a easy push that flips town, so looking back I'm starting to feel more and more like his vote was justified. Regarding his Sekaedy townread, I genuinely have no idea why you would townread a player off of this still, it comes across more as lurking than anything, but iirc I placed my vote before this, so my original reasoning wouldn't've been based on that.

Yes you did before that. But that was not the point. As I said teacher clarified what his motivations were behind the joke comment, which was the original reason iirc. I was just wondering as you never reflected on that and instead just sticked to teacher until his townreads where the hot topic. Looking back I also saw that you were prodded though, so maybe it might have been because of absence.

[GrandWazoo]

@GW:
To begin with I usually have troubles with reading erratic players like SR. What indicates town in his case is his effort as he is aggressively lashing out in any directions to get a grip on other players. Although it bothers me that he tried twice to after the guy who hasn't even been in the thread for 2-3 days and is now finally getting replaced. In case of his interaction with teacher for me the most important post #152 is where he explains his motivation. I can sympathize with that attitude, because in my first game with teacher I had the very same mindset with instantly jumping at teacher at the first opening to get a better impression of his personality, even although definitely not that aggressive as SR does. Also I am doubting if scum!SR would have been that bold to provoke such a 1v1 with a player like teacher on Day 1 considering the attention it caused.

It's that very erratic style of play that's striking me as anti-town. Wagon-hopping betrays a lack of conviction, at best. Directing investigative roles 77 out of the gate. "Pushing" a player that isn't here, as you said. Saying the chennisden wagon is would be a waste of time 158 then doing an instant 180 and voting them 162. Declaring "pressure vote" on Persival without actually voting. Voting me 149 for still being in RVS after I'd explicitly stated it was now a real vote 108. As for the 1v1 with teacher, I see both sides making a big deal over trivial matters. No problem with this in principle, since it often gives the other players insights into the two players' alignments. But in this case I didn't come away with any better idea on how to sort them. I don't know if his push on teacher was "bold" or just distracting.

Chennisden has redeemed himself somewhat so

VOTE: SR

[scum reading]

I mean, I guess this is what I get for being an active townie and trying to lead a ghost town into pressuring people and getting information since it’s day one. You all are acting like reads can’t change, I am actually more of a passive hunter, but given the fact that there are only 2 active people in this lobby and the game is stagnating, I started playing aggressive, is that what’s bothering you, my play style?

A passive town is a dead town.

Also, distracting? Are you serious? Me and teacher were the only ones active, what did I distract attention from?

[scum reading]

It's that very erratic style of play that's striking me as anti-town. Wagon-hopping betrays a lack of conviction, at best. Directing investigative roles 77 out of the gate.

I have a history of finding scum day 2 and people don’t follow me at all, so instead I tried asking for people’s opinions, trying to work with town. For day one I did hop on every wagon I could because there was no information at all, so I tried getting it by force.

I have explained even in my first post that we either lynch chennisden for his suspiciousness or an investigative should be on them. Teacher brought up the fact that this could be a game without investigative roles, so I voted him.

As for that Persivul thing, I’ve also asked you and teacher if you guys are good with a persivul push and none of you gave me a response, I find it being hypocritical now that you push me for this. Your answer was “Vote or vote not”, not “I am fine with it” / “I’d rather vote...”

[scum reading]

I don’t get people’s reads. Chennisden parks his vote on ASC and when I vote him, he suddenly starts defending himself, despite lurking all the time => nobody notices that

Chennisden makes 4 posts in which he still doesn’t give any reads at all or doesn’t contribute to town in any way => nobody notices that

But when I try to get information and keep the game moving, everybody is on it. Lynching me right now is the worst option possible for you. I tend to be at my peak performance Day2 and above. I don’t like this rvs stage because there is no information available, so I’m swinging at random to try and get it. That’s why I’m playing like this. Plus, chennisden even agreed with me on why he’d be a good lynch. There’s no information out there,I tried to make the most out of my engangements, but I only found town, no sign of scum. I wanted to pressure vote Persivul and I still do, but my own townblock doesn’t have the same agenda as me. If you poke persivul, he will respond.

[Persivul]

Wazoo and teacher, are you guys fine with a pressure vote on persivul?

Er, it doesn't really work if you announce that it's a pressure vote in advance.

Also, I did some meta on teacher and saw that yes, he likes to toss out easy RVS town reads.
UNVOTE:

[Persivul]

That wasn’t fast. I have gathered information for this day, I don’t know how it could progress further.

I have estabilished my town block already.

A lynch on you is the safest one and let me tell you why:

1. If you are scum, we lynch scum (200iq plays)
2. If you are town, we get rid of you now so that you won’t be an easy mislynch in a 3v2 situation. I’ve noticed you tend to be more confident in your reads late-game, but for today, we have to get rid of you for the reasons I mentioned. I’ve seen this post in a game of mine which I find interesting

“Town has to get rid of the scummiest townies and scum have to get rid of the towniest townies”

. That no lynch followed by a vote is suspicious though, so at least we aren’t lynching you for nothing. Plus, how convenient you come here rn as I’m pushing you, were you active lurking?

There's a lot of truth to that quote. Personally though, I also get concerned about the person trying to assert a leadership role (as by establishing town blocs) D1. Town leaders and town blocs are good when they occur organically. Otherwise, a scum who successfully makes himself town leader is the most dangerous scum of all. I know, I've done it.

VOTE: Scum reading

[GrandWazoo]

My problem isn't with your activity, SR, but in the nature thereof. Bandwagon-hopping and "swinging at random" IS distracting, hence anti-town. As is your push on teacher, based on a single post (which was itself about the ASCwagon over a single post) It would be like me jumping on teacher over the RVS opening-tip analogy. Trivial points like this don't merit pushes unless you show they're part of a larger scum agenda.

As Persivul says, orchestrating wagons for "pressure" is futile. If you think someone's scum, just vote them and say why. Now nobody will feel pressured by your vote because the target knows it's not a serious wagon and you'll be voting someone else in a page or two.

[Zeito]

My vote on teacher was mostly based on my belief that chennisden seemed like an easy push after he decided to vote for TheASC only after somebody else did. The "make a joke" thing did come off as strange to me also. However, chennisden has done nothing to indicate to me that he is a easy push that flips town, so looking back I'm starting to feel more and more like his vote was justified. Regarding his Sekaedy townread, I genuinely have no idea why you would townread a player off of this still, it comes across more as lurking than anything, but iirc I placed my vote before this, so my original reasoning wouldn't've been based on that.

Yes you did before that. But that was not the point. As I said teacher clarified what his motivations were behind the joke comment, which was the original reason iirc. I was just wondering as you never reflected on that and instead just sticked to teacher until his townreads where the hot topic. Looking back I also saw that you were prodded though, so maybe it might have been because of absence.

If you're suggesting I only began to reflect on town!teacher when other people did, you're acting as if I can't let other people change my mindset. I can and will reflect on my reads and change them.

Prodge til tonight. I’ll answer more in depth later Skellen but I thought ASC was pretty towny. The questions weren’t really for him but to see if anybody would jump in the shade without any real analysis and Chennis did. I agree with Wazoos read on ASC which is why Wazoo for my first out of null town.

First off, I can explain / make up motivations for any of my posts, even if I'm scum. Someone else doing so doesn't change the fact they originally said something that came off as strange to me.
Secondly, "The questions weren’t really for him but to see if anybody would jump in the shade" is not a motivation that would make me want to lean town on teacher.
I'm glad he gave his motivations, but I didn't place my vote hoping to pressure him into giving them, nor did I place my vote assuming that he had no motivations. I placed my vote because I found what he said awkward and a forced way of pressuring someone, and this has not changed. What has changed are his later responses, which I addressed in some post above.

[scum reading]

My problem isn't with your activity, SR, but in the nature thereof. Bandwagon-hopping and "swinging at random" IS distracting, hence anti-town. As is your push on teacher, based on a single post (which was itself about the ASCwagon over a single post) It would be like me jumping on teacher over the RVS opening-tip analogy. Trivial points like this don't merit pushes unless you show they're part of a larger scum agenda.

As Persivul says, orchestrating wagons for "pressure" is futile. If you think someone's scum, just vote them and say why. Now nobody will feel pressured by your vote because the target knows it's not a serious wagon and you'll be voting someone else in a page or two.

It’s not distracting when I’m the only one generating discussions and getting reactions fam, I am filling pages by myself. It isn’t distracting because there are NO ON-GOING DISCUSSIONS when I am voting. There’s nobody else generating discussion, it’s only me, so you calling it a distraction doesn’t make any sense. Anything else you want me to address?

[teacher]

^i thought activity wasn’t a defense?

[scum reading]

My problem isn't with your activity, SR, but in the nature thereof. Bandwagon-hopping and "swinging at random" IS distracting, hence anti-town. As is your push on teacher, based on a single post (which was itself about the ASCwagon over a single post) It would be like me jumping on teacher over the RVS opening-tip analogy. Trivial points like this don't merit pushes unless you show they're part of a larger scum agenda.

As Persivul says, orchestrating wagons for "pressure" is futile. If you think someone's scum, just vote them and say why. Now nobody will feel pressured by your vote because the target knows it's not a serious wagon and you'll be voting someone else in a page or two.

It’s not trivial, my case against him was strong. Scum want to be seen and act as town and what townies do is they town read and scum hunt. He gave a town read twice based on single posts. If you are scum, ofc you know who scum is so anyone else is town. Knowing that, you can give town reads at any time on town and be correct, but it’s not correct from a townie point of view if you town read based on a single post. What do you mean trivial, it made perfect sense to me at that time and when I heard his defence, I backed off. My accusation was backed up by people, it seems like you are the only one who thinks it’s trivial to engage in conversations and get reactions. I’ll just shut up and you guys handle it so there’s no more distraction, I’m sure pages will fill up if I stop pushing people, makes perfect sense, how did that thought not occur once in my head?

[scum reading]

^i thought activity wasn’t a defense?

Yeah, lynch me for it

[teacher]

^i thought activity wasn’t a defense?

Yeah, lynch me for it

I am not particularly interested in you so much as kicking the tires of sekaedys replacement.

given the number of replacements and that that was a full triple prodge replace, can we have 3 days with the full compliment of players before deadline?

[scum reading]

A lynch on me would actually give zero information. Before you make a gambit, you have to ask a few questions to see if it is worth taking that gamble. Will my lynch provide any information? If I get lynched and flip town, my reads wouldn’t mean anything because they’re not in their final form. Let me play my game, you’ll benefit from my gameplay later on, I’d say Day 2 and above. Or you can just hammer me today and follow your guts, at least learn from your mistakes peeps, never trust your guts.

[TheASC]

Wow, this really blew up over the last couple of days. Looks like I've got a lot to reply to.

@Skellen, @TheAsc, are you both comfortable with the players you're voting right now?

No, I think my initial vote has done all it can at this point. I'll UNVOTE: Sekaedy for now and put the vote somewhere else in about half an hour once I've had a good read through.

[chennisden]

UNVOTE: