Large Normal 221 - Endgame
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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This bit definitely didn't read like a joke. The next bit about Creature being confscum obviously was, which is why I assumed Montosh said he was "semi-serious."In post 115, Nero Cain wrote:IDK, but
doesn't really seem like a jokey RVS statement to meIn post 90, Montosh wrote:Trying too hard. This is scum. Luckily I'm already voting here.
Even if you did intend your entire post to be a joke (which it seems you didn't, not entirely), trying to downplay scrutiny on your post just because it's page 4 and RVS is suspect.Montosh wrote:You're taking this way too seriously for a page 4 RVS post. It's really weirding me out.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Is this based on meta?In post 58, Kirari Momobami wrote:I think town!Saudade would have omgus'd my RVS and his non-reaction here makes me kinda think I landed on scum-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Yeah the story just isn't adding up for me right now but I'm also very tired so I'll have to try to connect the dots tomorrow. (His post pinged you as scummy, so you called it out and voted him, and it was semi serious because you thought he was scummy, but then he's overreacting because it was a non serious rvs post, and I need a good lie down)In post 141, Montosh wrote:It was like the first thing that caught my attention so I figured I'd keep my vote there until something more substantive came along. But I wasn't planning to build a real case with it.
@Kirari ok-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Why?
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Also
Why?In post 201, Creature wrote:Montosh is town-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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I wanted to be sure they were basing this on meta and not, say, some kind of fake tell.In post 240, ofrhz wrote:
What else would it be based onIn post 142, LuckyOtter wrote:
Is this based on meta?In post 58, Kirari Momobami wrote:I think town!Saudade would have omgus'd my RVS and his non-reaction here makes me kinda think I landed on scum-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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- I honestly didn't love red's initial vote on pisskop. Just pings me as the scum thing to do to jump on the self vote right away like that. (Side note: Vork voted here as well, but showed some self-awareness about it that seemed more towny to me)In post 274, Montosh wrote:The way the Red wagon built up was just not right. And what's with this claim nonsense?
- Swims
- Nero
- pisskop
- *maybe* Red if the wagon is less bad
@LuckyOtter What do you think about Red?
- Some fluffy posts, even when things start to move along a little (with the exception of saying he doesn't see why NC's random list is getting negative attention, which I can agree with)
- Early wagons are good and didn't/don't see a need to drop this one yet until I can do some more sorting-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Eh. We still have 12 days til deadline and a couple people to join the game yet.
Who else is in your top 4?
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Kirari is the weakest read here imo. I don't know how a silly fakeclaim is AI at all, and I'm not sure what you're seeing that you're calling "over-meta"In post 321, Kublai Khan wrote:
It's early, but..In post 315, LuckyOtter wrote:Eh. We still have 12 days til deadline and a couple people to join the game yet.
Who else is in your top 4?
Kirari Momobami
- Silly fakeclaims as first post
- Over-meta
RedFlavour
- Jumping on self-voter bandwagon in second post
- Ignored mason claim.
- 147 - states confusion over NC's list. But doesn't vote for me until ater an exchange with pisskop where he votes RedFlavor. Feels like RedFlavor's KK vote is more distraction/deflection.
Montosh
- Ignored mason claim.
- Anti town-tells
- Anti RedFlavor-wagon for the sake of being against a wagon.
Vorkuta
- Jumping on self-voter bandwagon
- Weird Post 22.
- Weird Post 238.
Outskirts:
rosterfoster
- Just don't understand his reasoning for doing things.
EvilDeanius
- Totally Beetlejuiced in with fluff.
I agree with M that ignoring the mason claim is NAI. If anything ignoring fakeclaims and getting back to business is slightly town-indicative
I'm not seeing what is particularly weird about Vorkuta's posts. I don't see Red's and Vork's joining the pisskop wagon as the same.
I agree on EvilDeanius. If we're going to be voting lurkers I'd rather go here right now over HWS-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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I would say the same thing about HWS' posting style. I played with him as town and he has a very edited posting style that can read fake.In post 391, rosterfoster wrote:
Vork kind of has an unconventional posting style, so people tend to scumread that.In post 389, LuckyOtter wrote:I'm not seeing what is particularly weird about Vorkuta's posts. I don't see Red's and Vork's joining the pisskop wagon as the same.
ED is indeed a possible, but the case on swims is more than just lurking, while I don’t really see one of ED?-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Your last statement gives two scenarios, both of which have pisskop as scum and only one of which has HWS as scum. So why not just vote pisskop here?In post 434, Jesus Louisus wrote:I wouldn't mind switching my vote over to you. It's your call. I just can't decide if you are defending your partner or white knighting.
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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The question you asked and the lead-up to it just feel like you were setting him up for a bad response (not self-vote bad but still)In post 461, Jesus Louisus wrote:
Probably, I'm open to all possibilities.In post 459, LuckyOtter wrote:Is there a way he could have responded that would have made you not vote him?
The self-vote is a shit move though. If you're town you've just given scum an easy vote that they don't really need to justify. Do you have a record of doing this as town? Also, why are you still voting yourself?-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Ok. I didn't get that that was what you're trying to do. I buy it
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Trying to get caught up. I'm really not liking the flashwagon on Jesus yesterday because of his "do you have a gun" comment. Like, did you allreallythink that was rolefishing? @LUV, roster, redflavor.
I've mostly been TRing Kublai but I don't like his asking roster why he's moving his vote around. Votehopping D1 is obviously a thing and a lot of people were doing it in this game especially. Like, did you see roster doing itmorethan others, or more opportunistically than others? If you followed up on this I'm not seeing it.
I was away during all of Niko's existence here, so going to slog through that now.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Why would scum!Roster be scrambling even? Niko was the obvious lynch by that time. Frankly any hammer here is NAI.
On that note,
I really see no reason why not. There was really no danger of getting pushback for hammering that slot, whereas there might be suspicion for resisting the wagon (and in fact there was, since Kublai was pressuring ppl to take a stance on Niko and accused Deas of shifting to me to land on a safe spot)In post 1040, rosterfoster wrote:I never hammer town Niko as scum here though.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Wait, was this directed at Roster or at Niko? I interpreted Niko.In post 1038, Nero Cain wrote:if he's town I don't think he should ever play like this.
If this was referencing Roster I'd like Nero to expand on it.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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But you quoted LUV's vote when you voted, which I interpret as agreeing with him that Jesus' gun post was scummy, and I'm not seeing that. So what were/are you voting him for?In post 1091, RedFlavor wrote:
Idk I didn't vote for thatIn post 1072, LuckyOtter wrote:Trying to get caught up. I'm really not liking the flashwagon on Jesus yesterday because of his "do you have a gun" comment. Like, did you allreallythink that was rolefishing? @LUV, roster, redflavor.
I've mostly been TRing Kublai but I don't like his asking roster why he's moving his vote around. Votehopping D1 is obviously a thing and a lot of people were doing it in this game especially. Like, did you see roster doing itmorethan others, or more opportunistically than others? If you followed up on this I'm not seeing it.
I was away during all of Niko's existence here, so going to slog through that now.
VOTE: Jesus Louisus-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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But you voted him before, again quoting others, so you must have some opinion of him that you can articulate.In post 1097, RedFlavor wrote:No I voted because that wagon was becoming a thing.
That being said, I didn't read the game but I might read this tomorrow because it is possible.
Reading the game would be a great idea, yes.
VOTE: redflavor-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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His comment read as a joke to me and the jumping on him seems suspect.In post 1103, Kublai Khan wrote:
It could be role-fishing. Creature was role-fishing early on. What town reason does he have to ask?In post 1072, LuckyOtter wrote:Trying to get caught up. I'm really not liking the flashwagon on Jesus yesterday because of his "do you have a gun" comment. Like, did you all really think that was rolefishing? @LUV, roster, redflavor.
I mean at this point we're talking ideal strategy vs. scum intention. I don't really agree that votehopping D1 is that detrimental to voting power (I'd argue the opposite, really), and I don't see scum more likely to do it than town. It's not any better a strategy at keeping associatives down as, say, keeping a vote on just one or two people. Surface-level, the indecisiveness might look bad, but I'm not convinced it's more scum-telling than overconfidence.
Yes, he seemed to be doing it more than others. It's my general opinion that those who vote-hop weaken the pressure their vote imparts. In this case, nobody felt threatened or pressured by a rosterfoster vote, because he'll probably move it anyways. Flippant voters tend to be flippant because they have other ways to remove playes (NK) and a wide spread of votes keeps their association tells down. It's personality dependent of course, but I've never played with rosterfoster and don't know him.In post 1072, LuckyOtter wrote:I've mostly been TRing Kublai but I don't like his asking roster why he's moving his vote around. Votehopping D1 is obviously a thing and a lot of people were doing it in this game especially. Like, did you see roster doing it more than others, or more opportunistically than others? If you followed up on this I'm not seeing it.
What I'm getting at is that roster is feeling like lynchbait and that worries me, about your slot in particular.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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You're still implying there might be something scummy about his voting pattern, though. Otherwise, why make the 'scramble' comment at all? Was his response to that sufficient for you?In post 1106, Kublai Khan wrote:
Why? I'm not after rosterfoster. He's on the townside of my reads.In post 1105, LuckyOtter wrote:What I'm getting at is that roster is feeling like lynchbait and that worries me, about your slot in particular.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Lol. I'm trying to figure out your intent behind the question and what you intend to do with the information. It's not lining up.In post 1108, Kublai Khan wrote:
Neat. You ask me why I ask questions. I respond with the reason behind asking it (generally because there could be a scummy explanation), and you start accusing me of "still implying there might be something scummy".In post 1107, LuckyOtter wrote:
You're still implying there might be something scummy about his voting pattern, though. Otherwise, why make the 'scramble' comment at all? Was his response to that sufficient for you?In post 1106, Kublai Khan wrote:
Why? I'm not after rosterfoster. He's on the townside of my reads.In post 1105, LuckyOtter wrote:What I'm getting at is that roster is feeling like lynchbait and that worries me, about your slot in particular.
Are you going to ask me if I've stopping beating my wife next?
1. You ask roster why he's moving his vote around so much, and you ask him if he's scrambling (which if you want to talk about loaded questions, there you have one)
2. I say I don't really like this line of questioning because of how common votehopping is D1, but I ask you if you think roster's votehopping is more likely to come from scum than town.
3.You say that you do, but that you're also townleaning him. This is where I'm confused about what you're trying to accomplish here. Your questioning and reasoning for those questions imply you think he might be scum, but you're still townleaning him, and I'm not seeing how you've reconciled that. I even gave you a possible out here ("Was his response to that sufficient for you?") but instead you get defensive.
And it's weird because given your last post I'd think you would see where I was going with this.
It's a bit aggravating because otherwise I agree with a lot of your reads and approaches this game.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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I might have had that reaction if your vote looked obviously opportunistic to me, but it doesn't. If anything, I'd agree with Kublai that it sort of looks like avoiding the Niko wagon, but I don't have a substantive reason to believe that is more likely the case.In post 1112, DeasVail wrote:And now LuckyOtter.
I find it interesting that he commented on things during his catch-up, but never made any mention of my vote on him while he was V/LA.
Because I'm pretty sure my reaction would have been something along the lines of:
"DID YOU THINK YOU COULD GET AWAY WITH VOTING ME WHILE I WAS V/LA HUH!? HOW OPPORTUNISTIC!"
Okay that might be a bit of an exaggeration, but seriously. I kind of expect people to be at least a little bit self-consumed. After all, just look at my self-consumed concerns about Kublai!
Hey, I don't expect everyone to be exactly like me, but I find it odd that Otter talked about Jesus' gun comment, Nero saying that town shouldn't play like Roster did, and Kublai having an issue with roster moving his vote around (pretty innocuous things tbh) but not have anything to say about the big glaring elephant in the room of me voting for him. With the "commenting on things of interest to him" catch-up style, it seems unnatural that he didn't comment on that.
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I also am generally underwhelmed by Lil Uzi Vert.
Are you trying to bait a OMGUS from me, though? You didn't really give me anything in particular to respond to as far as I remembered after catching up. But let's look.
So like, what am I supposed to do with that? You're scumreading me because you don't like my style. I'm pretty used to that. But I can't respond to it, except that I'd disagree that I don't give my opinion anywhere. I'm just not as forceful about them as others on here. Other than that, I've got nothing to respond to hereIn post 940, DeasVail wrote:
I’ve just gotten to work and so I don’t have any more time after this, but I was actually thinking...In post 939, Niko wrote:If Eyes flips red (what happens 29 out of 30 times), I would lynch LuckyOtter next by the way.
VOTE: LuckyOtter [...]
But if I had the choice of lynching anyone in this game right now it would be LuckyOtter and so that’s where I’m going. I know that they’re V/LA but every time reading a post of theirs when catching up it just felt... empty. There were questions askedbut I couldn’t work out why or for what purpose. There seemed to be commentary here and there but not much real assertion of opinion anywhere. I probably could explain this better if I had more time and I’ll check in later today if I can but this is where I’m at right now.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Sure. Here's the game I played with him: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76409In post 1198, Montosh wrote:Otter ISO:
551 Otter I'd be down if you could explore a little bit more what about HWS' posting made you change your mind on them?
He was townie here. He was also IC which may have contributed to his stilted style, but you can see why I didn't scumread him right away. The Hmmm tell just isn't a thing for him. But after that, in the present game, he just totally disengages. In my previous game with him, he was pushing and prodding very methodically. The only reason I'm not hard voting that slot right now is because he replaced out, and because the previous game was a very different context. There's enough reason to doubt that his play here is scum indicative.
I'd say that's accurate early on. I like to do most of my own sorting in the background at first, but I'll put my sorting list out soon once I feel fairly confident in it. With this many people it's taking me longer.1140 Your style this game seems very "react to other people's reads" over "put out my own for other's to react to". Which is fine. I do the same. Would you say that's generally your playstyle?-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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If there's scum on the Creature wagon, wouldn't they be more likely to be earlier on it? Red and vork were votes 2 and 3, not putting creature in any real danger. The second wave was Kop(Niko), Nero, Roster, Jesus. I just don't see scum doing that when Creature is not even obviously the lynch.In post 1150, Eyes without a face wrote:Both RedFlavor and Vorkuta have been early on the Creature wagon and not on Niko, so I don't think they're scum with Creature.
Now, Roster immediately unvotes, as does Red after Alchemist joins. So I'm still good with Red as scum here. Roster is unclear. I'm good with Alchemist and Nero as town, and leaning town on Jesus.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Yeah :/ I honestly don't know what to make of him anymore. But his position on the creature wagon seems like not something a scumbuddy would likely do.In post 1216, ofrhz wrote:
It evidently wasn’t a jokeIn post 1105, LuckyOtter wrote:
His comment read as a joke to me and the jumping on him seems suspect.In post 1103, Kublai Khan wrote:
It could be role-fishing. Creature was role-fishing early on. What town reason does he have to ask?In post 1072, LuckyOtter wrote:Trying to get caught up. I'm really not liking the flashwagon on Jesus yesterday because of his "do you have a gun" comment. Like, did you all really think that was rolefishing? @LUV, roster, redflavor.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Also, would just a couple votes be enough to make creature implode? Doesn't look like it. He kept playing right along (not, like, well, but he didn't have a meltdown)In post 1245, Alchemist21 wrote:
What if the scum buddies didn’t know that about creature?In post 1226, Eyes without a face wrote:Scum Creature does not respond well to pressure, so I don't think his partners would start a wagon on him unless it was meant to be a full bus
Not at all on board with eyes' analysis of the creature wagon.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Either. Actually I straight up TR you and am kinda town lean to null on JL. This is mostly a gut read and because if the rolefishing thing is one of the main points against him I just don't see it as a great argument, and I'm not thrilled about Nom pushing it and then switching to eyes anyway. I might just be paranoid about nom though.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Just looking at this page alone though, I'd vote eyes over jesus. 1400 is not even a good reason to scumread someone. 1401 is entirely speculation. 1402, scumreads JL for changing his read between almost 200 posts. Honestly I'll have to look at that tomorrow when I've got time. Maybe he's got something there if it really doesn't line up but intuition says that's plenty of time to change a read this early on.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Why is Jesus so low on your list? Red threw around some useless votes this game including on Creature but seemed pretty intent on getting Jesus lynched.In post 1639, DeasVail wrote:
oh by the way for what it's worth the reason I paired you with Creature was because you had both claimed/soft-claimed stuff and my plan was to wait for further info before considering either of you as scum.In post 1565, Kirari Momobami wrote:DeasVail -- between the DV/LO 1v1 I think I'd do LO first since I liked DV's reads early game, but that feeling has waned a bit. I don't like 708 as much as I did on day 1 since he paired me with creature which is the kind of "let's put my scum townread with a town in case I flip so it's not obvious" thing you see from scum a lot, also so much of the iso is irt LO I'm kinda... hmm
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As for where I'm at from a quick glance through,
Town: Pops, Kublai, roster, Alch
Less Town: Nero Cain, Kirari, ofrhz
Less Scum: Montosh, nomnom, Jesus
Scum: Vorkuta, Otter
My first thought is that I kinda townread the twilight posting from Kirari and ofrhz?
In the case of Kirari, the vote on Red after he was obviously hammered is pretty weird from scum and seems more jokey than anything else.
And with ofrhz, my expectation is that she would realise her buddy was hammered and avoid doing some weird waffly pseudo-defense.
Buttt I'm going to think these through more when I'm not about to sleep because my usual approach to townreading people has not really held up so far here.
I do generally disagree with the blanket wagon clearing also. I think that the way that someone votes a person (and the situation) can be pretty town-indicative, but the Creature wagon in particular is not something I believe scum would have necessarily avoided. In particular my Vorkuta concern is that they were cheerleading that wagon without actually contributing to it.
I'll be giving this more thought tomorrow morning.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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As the Niko wagon is growing here, Red is voting Vork, which makes me pretty confident they are not scum together. I'd also bet that there's already scum on the Niko wagon at this point and Red is trying to sit elsewhere. This actually makes me think he's not scum with Montosh.In post 854, Not Known 15 wrote:
I'm looking at either Kirari or ofrhz. Kublai is still kinda null for me and Nero is solid town.-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Really the only thing that looks like it might not be Kirari. This doesn't really put Red in that much danger but it's drawing unnecessary attention to a slot that is not going to benefit from having attention drawn to it.In post 1174, Kirari Momobami wrote:Creature pretty much always does some low-grade bussing/distancing day 1 as scum right?
These all feel pretty low-impact to me, even if the HWS vote got some traction
@nomnom what do you think of vork and red?-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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Keep pressure away from CreatureIn post 1721, Kirari Momobami wrote:
why would he?In post 1719, LuckyOtter wrote:If Red and Montosh are scum together, why wouldn't Red just jump on the Niko wagon there?-
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Really not following you here.In post 1722, popsofctown wrote:
Your question is backwards. If scum!Montosh part of the 5 votes then it's more likely that Nikomislynch is at risk of not truly occurring because a high number of mistaken townies is needed. Since scum!Montosh actually wasn't part of the five votes it is more likely that RedFlavor could keep his hands clean of the mislynch whilst the mislynch still occurs.In post 1719, LuckyOtter wrote:If Red and Montosh are scum together, why wouldn't Red just jump on the Niko wagon there?
At any rate, in a scum!Montosh world, why would Red join him on Vork to create a competing wagon with Niko, when Creature still has some votes. That play doesn't make sense to me.-
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But not everyone was sold that that was worth scumreading. I don't think the niko lynch was a givenIn post 1726, Kirari Momobami wrote:
After niko claimed scum I think creature was under no pressure?In post 1724, LuckyOtter wrote:
Keep pressure away from CreatureIn post 1721, Kirari Momobami wrote:
why would he?In post 1719, LuckyOtter wrote:If Red and Montosh are scum together, why wouldn't Red just jump on the Niko wagon there?-
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Like right here. Immediate resistance to scumreading NikoIn post 676, Eyes without a face wrote:
I dunno what to make of this. While I could see it coming from a trolling town; the last 2 times this happened in games I spectated they both flipped scum (the last one was Almost50, the older one was Firebringer iirc)In post 661, Niko wrote:also, what a coincidence! i ended up rolling mafia in my first mafia game!-
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And here. I think there was plenty reason to want to push on Niko and keep the focus there, rather than let the focus shift back to Creature once the novelty wore offIn post 682, Nero Cain wrote:niko is town probs but Jesus-
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LuckyOtter Goon
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LuckyOtter Goon
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That is obviously part of the concern. I wouldn't care about one weak case against me if nobody was listening to it. Do you not remember me not caring about your vote against me some days ago?In post 2186, DeasVail wrote:Otter, if you were town I would expect you to be more concerned about the fact that you are town and there is a wagon growing on you, rather than the apparent weakness of the case on you?
@ofrhz I'm never a high post count person. But I've tried through my posts to either push somewhere or clarify my positions. Don't try to paint me as not having done anything. There are so many ppl on this site that do nearly nothing but post fluff or lurk and post a one liner and everyone's just fine with it. That's where my frustration is coming from.
Concerning nom. They've been fine today. Maybe a sk candidate, which could possibly explain hws' behavior. I don't see nom as group scum.
In my opinion VCA is a perfectly good reason to want to vote you. The fact that you're trying to downplay makes me happier to vote here.
@kirari I'm not going to town case myself for you. I want you to come up with a better case for me as scum.-
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