Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Yosarian2]

Heh. Lol@Ethar. Erm, I mean Ether.

ANd yeah, I'm replacing in. Shouldn't take me too long to get caught up here.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, reading through the thread now:

Let us discuss why the kill was made on an unknown player, and not on B-list celebrities such as Zindaras and Skruffs, or even a D-list celeb like Y. I feel that if the scum were solely composed of relative newbs, they would target a strong player, not only because it would be a good play, but that the weak always want to get to the strong.

First of all, Zind is totally an A-list celebrety.

Secondly, I'm not sure why everyone jumped all over Capricious for this post; considering nothing else had happened yet, this is not a completly invalid line of reasoning to start out with until something better comes along.

[Yosarian2]

Mizzy I don't think it is just empty fingerpointing. The game only identifies vanilla townies. We may be correct in assuming that there is a cop, seer, or investigator who was able to get a read on someone Night-0. Although right now it may seem like empty accusations but I'm sure there could be truth behind one of them.

Just a thought.

fos:Rotten Snitch

for anti-town cop speculations.

Skruffs: Was your early attack on Zindy serious?

On the other hand, this Capricious posts feels less pro-town

Don't threaten, if you want to voice your opinion through a vote, do so. Votes leave us with more evidence and track record later. That post just makes you look scummy because anything I reply with can be struck down by you as not on par with "excellent contribution". Thereby giving you what would appear to be a solid reason to slip a vote to others.

Nothing wrong with threatening to vote, or saying you might vote, or whatever else. This feels OMGUSy to me.

And capricious gets wierder as the game goes on...the whole investigative roles-wolfbane-stuff is bizzare.

Ok, read up to the end of page 5 now...time for dinner, be back in a little while.

[Yosarian2]

Skruff's warewolf role speculation stuff just feels a bit wierd to me. FOS, although I can't really explain why.

Also, this post kind of bugs me:

zindaras is not off the hook and needs to be analyzed mercilessly throughout the game (As I am pretty sure he will outlast me)

...

Huh...so, no majority at deadline means no lynch? Ok, that changes things a bit, I will make sure to place a good vote after I finish my re-read.

Not a big fan of Rotton Snitch's suggestion of a Skruffs-Zindy connection; I don't see that at all.

ALso:

Mizzy- I actually don't think Skruffs is trying to pull the attention away from me. I think he is waiting on a better time to bring the heat back on me. I don't know what his intentions are now but he was too quick to write me off like he did. I will admit that my previous posts seemed scumy although it was not my intent. I saw something in Skruffs posts. Although it was WIFOMy on my part I apologize. I still get a tingle when I read Skruffs posts.......call it love.... or call it suspicion.

Uh,huh? You think he's trying to...pull attention away from you in order to get you lynched?

On a side note, while I don't agree with basically anything Skruffs said, oddly enough my meta on him makes me think that irrational early-game agression for bad reasons isn't a scum tell from him, heh. Pretty neutral on Skruffs right now.

Capricious voted himself to avoid a no lynch? Uh...that's kind of strange. Could you explain why you think that's a good move, Capricious? On the other hand, if he was scum, he might have just lurked and it might have caused a no-lynch here, if I'm understanding the rules right, whihc means that him posting and voting himself might be a weak town tell here. (Or, I guess the word I'm looking for is, an "anti-scum" tell). Odd.

1) Capritown > Gets bored and doesn't care > Votes for self > Hurts town by aiding his own mislynch

Oddly enough, if Capri expects to get lynched today or tommorow, I could see Capritown deciding that lynching himself is better for the town then a no-lynch, and I can't imagine capriscum ever deciding that lynching himself is better then a no lynch. Unless he's capriscum pulling a WIFOM thingy here.

[Yosarian2]

So...how does this deadline work, exactally? Are we in danger at the moment? Because my current instint is to leave my vote where it is, on Rotton Snitch, unless we need me to move it in order to avoid a no-lynch. Is that going to happen soon?

[Yosarian2]

Mizzy and (zind) are scum, but would prefer to lynch mito help case on zind

Yos is 'fine' and pretending to be town while ignoriing looking at serious things?
(Case against zind was inflamed by others, etc)

...

Uh, the only "serious" thing about the so-called "case against zind" was that it makes you look bad. Did I miss something, or should I be paying more attention to how it makes you look bad?

[Yosarian2]

Yos: If something looks bad, I should be questioned on it. You are a smart man, you can figure things out. I understand you just replaced in but something about your "Well shucks howdy folks" strikes me as an act. I don't really like it.

"well shucks howdy folks"?

You do look bad, at several points in the game, and I think I already pointed them out. Especally, your attacks on Zinderas makes no sense at all. It seems like it's all "I'm going to be suspicious of Zinderas because I saw him as scum once and he kinda scared me". If there's more to your case on Zindy then that, I'm not seeing it.

The only thing that's in your favor at this point is that I have a meta on you that you're often irratiaonlly agressive and paranoid for bad reasons, especally towards players you precieve as good. It's not a helpful or a pro-town way for you to act, but it is a way I've seen you act while town before, so I'm not counting it as strongly against you as I would against most people.

[Yosarian2]

Yossy, what do you think of the meta-ing that Sir T did on me at the start of the game?

I think it's fair to say that I pretty much completly disagree with everything Sir T said all game, except for his vote on RS.

[Yosarian2]

Making sure I post to try and put off deadline at least...

[Yosarian2]

So, we need, what, 2 more people to post before deadline today now?

[Yosarian2]

You know, before we debate this any more:

Capi, could you explain exactally why you thought voting yourself was a good idea?

[Yosarian2]

/post

[Yosarian2]

Capri needs to answer my question ASAP, and if he wants to claim he should do it now. We're going to screw up and miss a deadline eventually, we don't have time to waste here.

[Yosarian2]

If you keep ignoring my question, Capi, you're probably going to get lynched quite soon, FYI.

Elmo: Ok, I'll go back and take a look at their posts. Anything specific you want me to look for?

[Yosarian2]

Um. Andy's vote on Snitch and behaviour around Capri (I think?) irks me; I had more than that, but I can't call it to mind right now. With Y.. I don't know, really. Zindy said "he feels off", I only really have a vague feeling at the moment.. I guess he doesn't seem to have engaged with the game much, and I don't really dig Skruffs being his main suspect at this point. I'm just curious as to what you think, I guess. Ugh, off to bed for me.

Hmm...

Well, in the early game, Andy looks pretty agressive, he got off to a start doing what looks like real scumhunting-ish stuff pretty fast, and that tends to give me good vibes. He's slowed down lately, he hasn't really contributed much content recently, though. I don't see anything especally scummy from him.

Y seemed to focus on Capi for most of the game, then he kind of shifted over to Skruffs for reasons I don't really understand. Y, could you explain why he's your main suspect right now? (Also, re-reading Y's posts, that thing about easter was great. )

[Yosarian2]

/here

Yeah, this isn't going anywhere.

vote:Capricious

That's lynch -1. I don't want to see anyone hammer today, since we've got the requisite 6 people posting so we won't hit deadline today, but he needs to either claim or somehow otherwise convince people he's town, and he needs to do it now.

[Yosarian2]

Um, I'm not voting you, RS. And the main reason I personally was suspicious of you was because your cop speculations seemed anti-town and harmful, and because of a bad vibe I got from some of your posts.

[Yosarian2]

Post...

ANd I'm only the 3rd person to post today, and it's alrady 4:18.

If it looks like we're not going to get the full 6 people today, then someone will need to hammer Capi in order to avoid a no-lynch; I'd do it myself, if I wasn't already voting for him. Capi, if you want to avoid dying within the next few hours, you need to show up and defend yourself, and you need to do that RIGHT NOW.

[Yosarian2]

My mistake, I was actually the 4th person to post today. Point still stands though.

[Yosarian2]

I would like to ask all the players currently voting Capricious: "Why are you voting Capricious?"

If you think he's scum, explain. Extrapolate. Because I personally simply don't really see any reason why I should be voting Capricious right now.

It's not so much because I think he's especally likely to be scum, not much more so then anyone else anyway. It's more that, at this point, it looks like that unless he starts defending himself better or unless something else happens, the day appears that it is going to end in either a no-lynch or a capi lynch. I'd rather see a capi lynch then a no-lynch, and I'm also hoping that the added pressure will encourage him to come back and try to defend himself or claim or something, and to do it fast.

[Yosarian2]

Eh. I was never a big fan of the capi lynch, but I tend to think that the way he barely posted for days and refused to answer simple questions while he was the biggest wagon in the game with a deadline made his lynch necessary.

[Yosarian2]

I don't have a problem with him hammering. The way he did it, and the precise timing, was odd, and I'd like to hear what he has to say about that today.

[Yosarian2]

Eh.

I was never a big fan of the capi lynch,

but I tend to think that the way he barely posted for days and refused to answer simple questions while he was the biggest wagon in the game with a deadline

made his lynch necessary

.

So, these things really really tick me off, Yossy.

Why's that?

I suppose it would have been clearer to say "the Capi wagon"

I don't have a problem with him hammering. The way he did it, and the precise timing, was odd, and I'd like to hear what he has to say about that today.

What do you think about the fact he didn't leave time for Capri to claim?

I'd like to hear his response/defense here about it before I say anything else.

[Yosarian2]

"Hi, Capri wasn't scum and I didn't really like lynching him even though I voted him."

Um, yes, and I made that 100% clear yesterday. You're acting like I'm being hypocritical here, when that's the exact same thing I said before we lynched him. I would have loved to have a better bandwagon yesterday, but it just wasn't going to happen.

[Yosarian2]

"Hi, Capri wasn't scum and I didn't really like lynching him even though I voted him."

Um, yes, and I made that 100% clear yesterday. You're acting like I'm being hypocritical here, when that's the exact same thing I said before we lynched him. I would have loved to have a better bandwagon yesterday, but it just wasn't going to happen.

I didn't like it yesterday either, but I was obviously focusing on Andy's decision to hammer back then.

You're not particularly hypocritical, I just see you claiming that Andy's lynch was "necessary", when I see it completely and utterly differently. The only necessary lynches are scum lynches. The only reason to lynch someone is because you think they're scum (barring deadline issues). You see, I see you saying that no other lynch was going to happen, but I see you claiming you would've preferred someone else. I see Skruffs saying that he's just ensuring a Day 1 lynch. I see Y claiming Capri's not his main suspect. I see Andy, where I'm not sure what he was thinking. But, if you look at the "real" vote count, you see something interesting (before Andy's hammer):

2 Capricious (eldarad, hasdgfas)
1 Andycyca (Elmo)
1 hasdgfas (Capricious)
1 Mizzy (Skruffs)
1 Skruffs (Y)
1 Y (Zindaras)

4 Unvote (Mizzy, Rotten Snitch, Andycyca, Yosarian2)

I have no idea where you would've put your vote because I don't think you ever said anything about your main suspect (and I'm skimming because I want sleep), but, basically, the people who just wanted to assure a lynch? They're the ones who got Capricious killed.

My main suspect had been RS, which is who I was voting for before I voted for Capi.

When I voted for Capi, there were, I think, 4 votes on him, no one else had more then 1 vote, and we'd already been in a "any day could be deadline" situation for, what, a week or more? Something like that? And there was absolutly no momentum pushing in any other real direction.

At that point, I only saw the day ending in 1 of 3 ways:

1. A no-lynch happeneing when inevitably sooner or later we don't have 6 people posting in a day. Could have happened at any time.

2. Capi showed up and started doing a better job defending himself, answering questions and/or claiming, doing a good enough job that the people currently voting him would leave the wagon and go elsewhere

or

3. Capi got lynched.

That was the only 3 possibilities, and I wanted it to be either #2 or #3. By the way I voted for him, you can probably tell that I was primarally hoping to scare him enough so he'd defend himself or claim or something, but was also willing to see him lynched if he wouldn't do that. And when he posted after my vote, he continued to ignore me, continued to refuse to even try and explain his actions or whatever.

Basically, I was hoping that if he was town, that he'd give me an everyone else a reason to unvote him so we could move on, and he just refused to do it, for reasons I still don't understand. So, yeah, I think the fact he was not at all defending himself at that point made his lynch inevitable. And while I only though there was, say, a 40-45% chance he was scum, that's still better then a no-lynch if those are my two options.

[Yosarian2]

fos:eldred

Didn't like that last post of his.

[Yosarian2]

I don't think this is the correct way to treat it. You're basically blaming Capri for his own lynch.

Yup, pretty much. A mislynch is always partly the fault of the guy who gets lynched and partly the fault of the pro-town people on the wagon. In this case, I think a very large part of the lynch was due to Capi's complete failure to defend himself.

I basically did everything in my power to get him to respond, to defend himself, to give us a reason to go after someone else. There is an entire series of my posts where I consistatnly kept trying to ratchet up the pressure on him in the hopes of getting some kind of reaction we can use, and he just kept ignoring me.

You know, before we debate this any more:

Capi, could you explain exactally why you thought voting yourself was a good idea?

I wanted him to answer that question before we said anything else; I wasn't going to give any more possible pro-town justifications for his action for him to hide behind, I wanted HIS reasons, BEFORE some townie gave him reasons. And then I kept ratching up the pressure, notch by notch; that usually works to make a person start dealing with the issue, to start responding to points made against him and all that, but for some reason, he just ignored it all. Here's the progression:

Capri needs to answer my question ASAP, and if he wants to claim he should do it now. We're going to screw up and miss a deadline eventually, we don't have time to waste here.

If you keep ignoring my question, Capi, you're probably going to get lynched quite soon, FYI.

/here

Yeah, this isn't going anywhere. vote:Capricious That's lynch -1. I don't want to see anyone hammer today, since we've got the requisite 6 people posting so we won't hit deadline today, but he needs to either claim or somehow otherwise convince people he's town, and he needs to do it now.

Post...

ANd I'm only the 3rd person to post today, and it's alrady 4:18.

If it looks like we're not going to get the full 6 people today, then someone will need to hammer Capi in order to avoid a no-lynch; I'd do it myself, if I wasn't already voting for him. Capi, if you want to avoid dying within the next few hours, you need to show up and defend yourself, and you need to do that RIGHT NOW.

It's not so much because I think he's especally likely to be scum, not much more so then anyone else anyway. It's more that, at this point, it looks like that unless he starts defending himself better or unless something else happens, the day appears that it is going to end in either a no-lynch or a capi lynch. I'd rather see a capi lynch then a no-lynch, and I'm also hoping that the added pressure will encourage him to come back and try to defend himself or claim or something, and to do it fast.

I made it quite clear exactally what he had to do if he wanted me to not vote for him. I needed a real response from him, an explination, a defense, something with some meat to it that I could sink my teeth into and rip apart use to figure out his alignment. If he had done that, if he had convinced me he was pro-town (and I think I made clear I was willing to be convinced), I would have not only unvoted him, I would have turned around and defended him, and tried to get the town moving in a different direction. But there was just no way to do that without a defense from him, without something that would help me figure out his alignment one way or the other to the point where I was confident enough of it to do a move like that, and then use to convince others of it. I can't defend someone who's not going to defend himself, and I can't really start another wagon that deep into deadline-any-second-terratory unless I can really explain both to myself and others why it's so much better then the current wagon that it's worth trying to dismantle the whole thing and starting over and run a really high risk of hitting a no-lynch instead. I needed SOMETHING to work with, and he just wouldn't give it to me no matter what I did, no matter how clearly I tried to communicate exactally what he needed to do in order to not be lynched. So, yeah, perhaps it sounds harsh, but I do blame him for his own lynch.

That being said, that dosn't mean that there weren't any scum on the wagon, of course. At the moment, I'm thinking Eldred; it feels like he's massivly over-reacted to some fairly reasonable and vauge posts by Mizzy, to the point where he's giving me a "scum who knows he's pushed a bad wagon" vibe. It's kind of a gut thing, but it's the best I've got at the moment, so

vote:Eldred

[Yosarian2]

Really not liking Rotten Snitch again here. Along with my day 1 reasons, today it feels like all he's doing is lurking and making excuses for lurking. He hasn't said much about the wagon yesterday or what could be gained by it, he didn't response to the Mizzy/Eldred debate, or to anything else really, and he hasn't given any hint about who he thinks is scummy.

fos:rotten snitch

Looks to me like he was trying to fly under the radar, Mizzy called him on it, and now he's in defensive mode. Rotton Snitch, I need to hear what YOU think. If you had to pick, right now, who would you say is most likely to be scum in your mind?

On a side note, there's nothing inherently wrong with looking for connections based on who avoids commenting on who else; scum often do carefully avoid commenting on each other. However, you can't really go on just that alone; it's more useful as something to look for once you've found a scum, or when a person avoids commenting on the main issue of the day, because individual townies obveously often just dosn't bother commenting on other specific individuals when there's no real reason to comment on them.

[Yosarian2]

That was the first real thing you've said all day, Rotton Snitch, you only did it in response to pressure about your lack of contrabution, and you were incredibly vauge about it. If you think Skruffs is scum, could you explain why? Same with Mizzy or Zindy. What have they done that makes you think they're likely to be scum, exactally?

[Yosarian2]

I'm not sure why "vaugeness" in this case is a scumtell. She didn't like the wagon yesterday, and dosn't like it today in retrospect; isn't that kind of how you would expect a pro-town person to respond in that situation? She was discussing the wagon, which is only logical since that's the main thing we've talked about today, and has basically been venting her opinions on it in general. Could you show me exactally what it is she's said that you think scum would be more likely to say then town?

[Yosarian2]

Yos seems to be subtly goading Mizzy, which I really don't like.

How am I "subtly goading Mizzy"?

I've been mistrustful of Yos ever sinec Open 14, though, so I'm hyper sensitive to his playstyle, even if I can't really understand it.[/quote]

Heh...yeah, you pretty much do attack me in every single game we're in together.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, we need to wagon someone, and we need to do it now, we've got no time. Why are so many people not voting? Are people so afraid of another bad bandwagn that we're just going to no-lynch today? What the heck?

I'm still thinking either Rotton Snitch or eldarad is fine. I'm actually a bit more suspicious of Rotton Snitch at the moment

unvote

vote:Rotton Snitch

I don't really like the Mizzy wagon, but we need to move SOMEWHERE. Everyone needs to get in here and vote, and they need to do it now.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, we need to wagon someone, and we need to do it now, we've got no time. Why are so many people not voting? Are people so afraid of another bad bandwagn that we're just going to no-lynch today? What the heck?

I'm still thinking either Rotton Snitch or eldarad is fine. I'm actually a bit more suspicious of Rotton Snitch at the moment

unvote

vote:Rotton Snitch

I don't really like the Mizzy wagon, but we need to move SOMEWHERE. Everyone needs to get in here and vote, and they need to do it now.

Hey, no. Try again. This is a terrible post. First off, we have plenty of time. People aren't voting because there's good discussion going on right now. Why do you think we're going to no-lynch? Do you not like the discussion that's currently going on? I think it's very useful.

Uh, we have half a week until deadline, and the biggest bandwagon is exactally two people. I'm not saying we need to hammer someone right now, but we need to start moving towards a lynch, hopefully with time and inclination to be able to back off and go somwhere else if we want to. We need to start moving towards a lynch NOW, so we AREN'T forced to either no-lynch or fire off a quick "it's deadline lets lynch someone now" situation.

As for the current conversation, I don't have any specific problem with it, other then it's not moving us any closer to a lynch. Mizzy didn't like the wagon yesterday, but dosn't seem to really suspect any one person on the wagon. Fine, but why are we dewlling on it so much? People need to either make a case based on the Capi wagon, or make a case based on something else, but we need to be making cases.

Deadline could come as early as 3 days from now, and we've got no real leads from today, no bandwagons or reponses to wagons, and very little in the way of attacks or defense. Sy it's day 4 and you're re-reading today. Is there anything that's happened today so far that's going to help you figure out player X's alignment once you know player Y's and player Z's alignment? I don't really think so, because no one's attacking anyone else, so no one's defending anyone else, so there's no connections or scumhunting or "X was right about Y being scum, X is probably pro-town", or "A attacked B, but it looks like a bus" or anything like that.

Basically, no, I don't like the way today is going so far, because it's not going anywhere. Seconly, no, we do NOT have "pleanty of time"; we're only assured of 2 weeks per day, and we've already used up most of that without getting anywhere. Yes, "more information is better", but if no one's voting and no one's attacking anyone, then we're not really GETTING much information. We need to actually start moving somewhere, and we need to do it now.

[Yosarian2]

What I do not like about the wagon and it’s riders is that Yos suspected me day 1 and day 2 but was ok with a “vote someone else because nothing is gonna change it” and Skruffles suspected Mizzy and Zindy day 1 and 2 but again “vote someone else because nothing is gonna change it” this kind of thinking is going to lynch another Townie today, IMO it is scum thinking.

I made my thinking yesterday quite clear, thank you. If you have a problem with my thinking, then respond to the post where I explained exactally what I did yesterday and why.

Take a look at Yos’s post 484 and then his new post 589 he has mentions that my posting is suspicious and such but has not really gone after me or questioned me at all. Content to switch votes and lynch but not content to aggressively pursue a suspected scum???? Although Skruffs has been more aggressive towards Zindy and Mizzy he is showing the same characteristics.

(shurg) I've explained why I think you're suspicious. You have not convinced me I'm wrong. After thinking about it, and after some of Eldred's more recent posts which felt a little less scummy, I came to the conclusion that I was happier with lynching you then lynching Eldred, although I wouldn't mind either one and I think there's a good chance that the two of you are scum together.

I do find her amount of posts a little suspicious.
When you post so much it kinda discourages some to not bother reading and separating the facts from the BS. I personally am too lazy to re-read 24 pages and 115 of her long life draining posts to call her on anything. If this is an attempt to intentionally distract / dissuade / and overwhelm then she has completely beaten me. My belief of her possible scuminess is more of a gut feeling and if it boils down to a town win I will waste a day of my life to analyze all of her posts and interactions.

You've hardly said anything of content, and now you're attacking her for posting too much content?

[Yosarian2]

hasdgfas, I still would like you to explain why you would see a mod post saying we have half a week until deadline and your reaction is to actually attack me for trying to encourage people to vote, and to tell me we have "pleanty of time". Why aren't you voting, exactally? Do you really think that you not voting for anyone right now is the correct pro-town move for you to do in this situation?

[Yosarian2]

I'm more wondering about Yos's statements. I looked back at the previous day's voting. Yos states that he would be happier with my lynch and then moves his vote to Capri. He then states yesterday and today he did not want to lynch Capri but it was an inevitable wagon and nothing was going to change it. Although during this whole time you did nothing to try to change it. You went along with it and badgered Capri to defend himself and so on to justify your vote.

You're pretty much completly wrong there. There was one thing that could have prevented a Capi lynch, and that would have been Capi defending himself, and I did everything I could to ask, to cajole, to pressure, and to threaten him in order to do that. If he wasn't going to defend himself, then the 3 people already voting for him weren't likely to leave the wagon, and without those 3 the odds of us sucessfully putting together a good wagon on someone else within the time constraits were slim to none.

Anyway, I already explained all of this. If you really care about why I voted capi, go back and respond to that post. But it looks more like you're just trying to attack me because I'm attacking you, you're trying to find some kind of leverage you can use to undermine here, and that makes me think you're scum.

In the end you voted him because he was the easier lynch. That is not town thinking.

And what were you doing at the time, exactally? Were you trying to get a different wagon going? Were you trying to convince us Capi was a bad lynch? Were you trying to get the town to change directions? No. You weren't voting anyone at all. You were making vauge, wishy washy statements like this:

Some of my thoughts now that I am back. Again I apologize for being gone, if anyone has been to Ft. Polk, LA they will agree that my week sucked 

Anyway, I have done a partial read through and some things have come to my attention.
I will agree that Capri is a little odd in his posting. I have never played with Capri so I can’t say if this is usual or not. I do not really like his post 293

pro-town people are creators, scum play tag-along/ are concluders

I agree with everyone else in that this was a horrible waste of time.

I DISLIKE how you are asking if Capri has claimed. We have been making the deadline so far each time and as far as I know. In post 347 you are looking for a claim and it is no where near the chopping block for Capri yet.
I LIKE: his case he has presented on Capri and I agree with most of it. I just think the above point is a little off-ish, too soon to be asking for a roleclaim.

Mizzy I don’t like your WIFOM in post 323. You jumped down my throat so far you could touch my harbles for WIFOM. Yet it is ok when you do it because you are aware and saying so? It is still WIFOM and very two-faced. Muddying up the waters…..

Y your post 412 agrees with my previous posting on Skruffs defending me to bring it up against me later. I also agree that he could be fencing with everyone to stir up the pot later. Although I have to admit it is just the way Skruffs is. Damn him!

Where you said that you like the case againsst Capi, but that it was "too soon" to be asking for a roleclaim; where you said that he was acting "odd", but you didn't have enough meta on him to know if that meant anything or not. Basically it looks to me like you were happy with a Capi lynch (after all, you did just say you "agreed" with the case on him) but you didn't want to be directly associated with it yourself.

And then you said this:

Post......
I hate to say it I agree.
with a deadline being strung out this is getting difficult as people lose interest in posting to keep it alive. I doubt with a 24 hour deadline the wagon will swing.

Capri you really should be active right now.

Where you seem to AGREE that a Capi lynch was pretty much inevitable (I'm assuming that's what you meant for saying that you doubt the wagon will swing, right?) and say attack Capi was not being active enough (basically, for not defending himself, right?)

So everything that I've said today, everything that you're now trying to claim is scummy, you apparently agreed with at the time. And you certanly never did anything that looked like you were trying to find a better wagon yesterday, or gave any sign that you thought the capi wagon was bad, or anything. It looks like you didn't really care if there was a capi lynch or a no-lynch, that either one would be fine with you.

confirm vote:Rotton Snitch

Seriously, why is no one else voting for this guy here?

I believe Andy's hammer was essential because we were at a point that we were posting just to keep day 1 from deadlining. But when Yos voted Capri there was still good conversation. The bandwagon could have been changed.

Were you doing anything to try to change the wagon? It dosn't look like it to me.

I'm almost convinced that Yos was just setteling for one of the two townies and didnt really care. There was a wagon and an deadline and he felt comfortable switching his vote although I was a more favorite scum choice for him.

Pro-town people need to be willing to agree, to compromise, and to come together to form a consensess. I am still convinced that based on what I knew, everything I did yesterday was the best pro-town move i could do at the time I did it.

Although you're right about one thing; I should have trusted my gut instint more and attacked you harder yesterday before settling on the Capi wagon, because I'm increasingly certain you're scum.

I also want to know why you still havent put a valid case on me day 2?

A valid case? You look scummy, you feel scummy, and have done so all game. Your actions involving the Capi wagon feel scummy, as I explained above, and they certanly contradict the argument you're trying to make against me now. I've seen basically no sign so far that you've done anything to try to help the town accomplish anything. You're attacking me for things I've already explained, and doing so while totally ignoring the explinations I've already made.

Besides, even without all that, at this stage in the game a gut feeling is enough. If everyone who's pro-town should be voting right now for whomever they think is most likely to be scum, and I think they should, then people should be willing to do that even if it's just based on a gut feeling.

Are you hiding behind your vote on me waiting for another bandwagon to jump on?

Hiding behind my vote on you? Why would I have to "hide" behind any vote, when almost no one else is voting at all?

And no, I'm not "looking for another bandwagon to jump on". I'm always open to be convinced, but right now, I'm pretty sure today we need lynch you.

Or even the deadline? You do seem pushy to start a bandwagon before deadline.

Is that supposed to be attack on me?

Why AREN'T you pushy to start a bandwagon before deadline? Why weren't you yesterday?

Is it easier to get a townie lynched on a deadline bandwagon like yesterday buddy?

Um, yeah, deadline lynches aren't as good as lynches where you have more time, and that's WHY we need to start bandwagoning NOW. Actually, we should have started bandwagoning people like a week ago, but now's better then nothing.

[Yosarian2]

Why am I not voting? I can't decide whom to vote for right now. I was going to vote Mizzy, but I've seen other things today that make me think differently. It's not an anti-town move necessarily to not vote.

In this situation, I think it is anti-town to not vote, yeah. Figure out who you think is most likely to be scum, and put a vote on them. If it's a tie between two or three people, then vote for one of them and be willing to change your mind.
[/quote]

In this situation, I do think it is anti-town to not be voting right now, although since almost everyone is doing it it's not really a huge black mark against you at the moment. Basically, look back at the game, figure out who you think is most likely to be scum, and vote for that person. Give an explination if you can, or vote on gut if you can't. If it's a tie between two or three people, vote for one of them.

Basically, we really need to be focusing right now on figuring out who we want to lynch today. That needs to be the focus. And in order to do that, people have to start taking positions.

If nothing else, if all we're doing is the free-floating vauge type of discussion that's characterised most of today, then that makes it a lot easier for scum to hide, since they don't really need to commit to anything.

Continue your discussion with Mizzy about the Capi lynch if you want, but you also need to start trying to figure out who you, personally, think needs to die today.

The reason we still have plenty of time is the fact that the deadline mechanic just means we have to talk in order to not no-lynch. We can make this day as long as we want it to be by talking.

We can try, but that seems like a real gamble to me to count on us being able to do that indefinatly. What happens when just too many people happen to not get online on some random Sunday? Then we randomally no-lynch, and we start off tommorow in exactally the same place, with exactally the same information, but one less good guy and possibly with less chances to lynch the scum because we wasted one.

Towns that accidently no-lynch (basically, that just fail to lynch) generally seem to do very poorly from that point on in my experence; they get demoralized, people start posting less, the game starts to seem pointless to everyone, and it's basically a downhill slide from there into an ignoramous "scum won because town couldn't get their act together" type of loss. That's been my experence in the past; look at how the town completly fell apart in Lights Out II after failing to lynch one of the days for example.

I understand that we're probably going to go into "extra innings" again today, and that's ok, but we don't want to stay in that precarious state for too long, we certanly don't want to try and count on our ability to stay in that state for long.

[Yosarian2]

Huh, I thought I deleated one of those, I didn't mean to say that first idea twice, heh. Oh well, you get the idea.

[Yosarian2]

I was in agreement with the reasoning for the Capri lynch but am against your motives. I did not know the alignment of Capri and when I agreed that he should be more active it was a truthful comment. I did not place my vote because I did not believe he was scum 100%. I do not know the reasons for his inactivity but it did seem as though he was avoiding the majority.

Um, if you thought he was a better lynch at that moment then anyone else seemed to be, you should have voted for him. Period. If you thought someone else would be a better lynch, then you should have been voting for them. The town wins by lynching, and no lynch is ever 100% accurate on day one, to even think it should be is absurd; you just have to do your best.

The fact that you were semi-suppoting the wagon, using wishy washy posts and vauge comments, but never actually joined it, makes me think you're probably scum, since that's a common way for scum to act; they want to lynch a townie, but they don't want to get their own hands dirty in the process.

And yeah, it did seem he was avoiding answering questions, and I was trying to force him to do so. That was the whole point.

What I am attacking you for is the deadline wagon you want day 2.

What the hell? I DON'T WANT A DEADLINE WAGON ON DAY 2. I WANT TO LYNCH SOMEONE BEFORE WE GET TO THAT POINT IF POSSIBLE. People who aren't voting apparently want us to go to a deadline wagon; either that or they want a no-lynch, which is even worse.

Or, is it just that you're attacking me because I think you're scum? Because that's what it looks like.

Everyone else has discussed the mechanics of the deadline and all have agreed that as long as we have conversation, then there is no reason to rush a band wagon.

If "everyone" thinks there's no reason to even start to put a wagon together right now, then "everyone" is wrong. How does it help us to sit around and twiddle our thumbs for another week or two or three without doing anything?

I feel as if we rush a bandwagon then we will be stuck in the same situation as day 1.

We got in that situation on day 1 because no one was willing to commit to a bandwagon until we were like a week past deadline.

IF you don't think you should be lynched, then you need to convince me you're town, or convince me that someone else is scummier then you are. This whole "Oh we shouldn't be bandwagoning anyone because bandwagons might lead to town lynches" thing you're trying to do here is not helping your case.

You can say "There was one thing that could have prevented a Capri lynch, and that would have been Capri defending himself" Well Capri defending himself does not mean he will not be lynched, you were using that as an excuse to join the wagon.

Uh, what? If Capi had defended himself well, I would have left the wagon and found someone I thought looked scummier. He probably would not have been lynched in that case.

Anyway, you don't need an "excuse" to join a wagon. Random lynch is better then a no-lynch, so you should almost always be voting for someone, especally when a deadline is approaching, and you need to be willing to join a wagon even if you're not 100% sure of it if it seems to be the only way the town is likely to get a lynch. That's how a pro-town person should act. Note that that is NOT how you acted; my actions during the Capi wagon, while not perfect, were more helpful to the town then anything you've done all game.

Let me ask you this: if you start a wagon on me and I defend myself will you continue to push it? Or are these just empty words to defend yourself from yesterday?

If you defend yourself well, if convince me you're town, then yes, I'll stop voting for you, absolutly I will. You certanly haven't convinced me you're town yet, in fact your reactions so far have made me more convinced of your scumminess then anything, but it's possible you'll change my mind, people often do.

Of course, I'm more suspicious of you then I ever was of Capi, so your job there is a lot harder then his would have been, but it's in your best interest to try at this point.

[Yosarian2]

A quick skim of Yossy's case on Snitch doesn't really convince me, I'm mostly getting complete newb vibes from him.

Newb, yeah, but more likely newb scum then newb town I think. His day 1 stuff was very wishy washy and noncomittal, makes me feel like he wanted to support the Capi wagon without being a part of it, and the only time he's done anything day 2 has been generally in response to being attacked, and none of it really feels right to me.

[Yosarian2]

For this dayphase, deadline checks will be made at 8:00 pm Eastern instead of 11:00 pm. (8:00 pm Eastern = starting now.) Starting right now as opposed to giving you a 21-hour extension would be harmless, I think, but I

did

say today's deadline would be made at 11, and I wouldn't want a switch to affect you.

So, um, if I see five posts after this, I'll edit this post into a deadline cutscene. Proceed.

Um, I'm a bit confused by exactally how this works; the days are going to be 11pm-11pm, and we need 6 people to post between that time? Except today it's 8pm saturday-11pm sunday we need 6 people?

Anyway, mostly just posting to try and make sure we have 6 people posting in the Sunday time-frame, if I understand that right.

[Yosarian2]

/filler post!

[Yosarian2]

Not enough people voting for RS here.

[Yosarian2]

Yos - Maybe you dont see it but I really don't think you have come up with a damning enough case on me. You are so desparate for a day 1 repeat so try the bandwagon on someone that has a few vote on them already.

Thats what you did yesterday.

Um, what? Why should I join a wagon on someone I'm not that suspicious of, when I think I have a pretty good idea is scum is sitting right here?

BTW, I don't really care if you don't think the case against you is "damning enough". It's the best thing I have to go on right now, and I think it's pretty good, so that's what I'm going with. Convince me my case is wrong, or convince me someone else is a better lynch today then you are, and I'll move my vote. This kind of post, though, is not helping your case.

[Yosarian2]

Eh...I get home from work at 4, I spent a while trying to figure out that mess of a game I'm trying to mod, did a few other things, then posted here at 4:30, Skruffs. It really had nothing to do with your post.

[Yosarian2]

So your actions yesterday were not proof enough? You were suspicious of me yesterday and yet you jumped on the Capri wagon to "get him to defend himself" Yet he didnt and you stayed voting him. He hung and you went back to me.

Again, yeah, I probably should have pushed harder to lynch you yesteday, since you're scum. But again, if you have a problem with the way I acted yesterday, go back and respond to the post where i explained why I acted the way I acted yesterday. I really laid it out there in great detail; and strangly, you didn't say a word about my behavior yesterday until I started attacking you. And you keep trying to make obliqe references to the bandwagon yesterday in order to defend yourself here, which is odd, since the way I'm acting today (IE: just pushing for your lynch and not joining the wagon) is the way you're attacking me for NOT acting yesteday.

Again I'm arguing your actual case on me. All you have said is that I give off scumminess.

That's not "all I have said". And no, you're not arguring against my case on you, you're trying to confuse the issue of the wagon on you with the the issue of the Capi wagon yesterday.

Convince you someone else is scummy so you can move to their case? Why so you can use someone else's accusations to get another townie lynched?

Look, we're going to lynch someone today. Right now, I'm pretty sure it should be you. If you want to change my mind, athen you need to either convince me I'm wrong about you, or convince me that someone else is a better lynch for today then you are. That's how mafia works.

And by the way, why are you assuming that whoever you'd make a case against would be a "townie"?

You have been accusing me but not accusing me all game.

Accusing you but not accusing you? No, I'm pretty much just accusing you. Here, watch:

YOU ARE SCUM. SCUM SCUM SCUM. DIE SCUM DIE.

There, you see? This is me accusing you.

You have been trying to get others to come up with a case on me so you can piggy back.

No, I'm trying to get other people to follow me so we can lynch a scum. Not really sure what you mean about "trying to get others to come up with a case on you". I think I've already given got more then enough reason to lynch you, I don't really need anyone else to make a case against you.

Yet in two whole days you have not actually come up with a case on me that would sway the other townies onto your deadline bandwagon.

Vote: Yosarian2

So, you're voting me beacuse I haven't suceeded in lynching you yet?



Also note the possible slip there with that "other" townies comment. I guess you already know I'm pro-town, right?

For trying to get others to make cases so you can join your deadline bandwagon guilt free. (for reference see Capri's lynch)

Uh, everyone should be making cases now, yeah. But I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "guilt free"; today, I think we need to lynch you, and I'm becoming more and more convinced you're going to come up scum so I'm not really worried about "guilt".

[Yosarian2]

I have made a case, Rotton Snitch. I think the way you behaved around the Capi wagon yesterday, supporting it in wishy washy terms but not joining it, is just the way I would expect a scum in your position to act. And, to top it off, after you tried to push that wagon without being on it, now you're attacking me for being on it. It's pretty much a textbook example of scum behavior.

Also, you've done very little all game that looks designed to help the town, you've mostly only acted in response to being attacked yoursef. Everything you've done all game feels off-kilter and self serving. Frankly, that'd be more then enough reason already for me to want to lynch you, is just the vibe I'm getting from your posts in general

And rather then respond to my accusations against you, you OMGUS attack me instead, and continue to ignore what I've said and pretend that I'm attacking you for no reason. I've explained why I voted for Capi yesterday, and you keep either misrepresenting or ignoring everything I've said. And yet, you never had a problem with my attsck on or my vote for Capi yesterday, and you didn't have a problem with it today, UNTIL I started attacking you in earnest, at which point you apparently started looking for something to attack me with. Again, that's the way a scum acts; a mafia member dosn't care about finding scum, obveously, but he needs to look like he's trying to find scum, so instead of actually looking for scum a mafia member often tries to get people lynched who look like a threat to him; or if he can't get them lynched, he tries to discredit them. And again, even besides that, the way you've tried to defend yourself feels scummy; instead of responding to my points, you ignore them, try to confuse the issue, and pretend I haven't made any point, and try to attack me in any way you can think of.

The thing you seem to not be getting is that the reason I wanted Capi to defend himself was so I could figure out his alignment. You can tell a lot about someone's alignment based on how they defend themselves. And right now, your defense feels like that of a scum who knows I'm right and so is trying to do everything but answer the valid points I have raised against him.

You have not done one single thing yet this game that feels pro-town to me. Nothing you've done looks or feels like a real attempt to find scum. You're very when under attack but when you're not under attack you're quiet. Basically, you act like I normally expect mafia members to act.

[Yosarian2]

Second to last sentance should have read "You're very active when under attack..."

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian2: I think I have already presented my case about Yos and right now I do think he is very scummy. He counters accusing me of an OMGUS vote. He has been voting me all game and making snips to get the attention back on me. I have noticed this since the beginning of day two when he dropped his vote on me again. He has been climbing up my scum ladder ever since my idea about the Skruffs Mizzy Zindy possibilities and now that I have voted him he comes in and calls me out for OMGUS. Basically saying that I would not be allowed to ever vote him because it would be an OMGUS vote as long as he was accusing me.

Your vote against me looks like OMGUS, because you seem to have been very intentionally voting for me and attacking me INSTEAD OF responding to my case against you. You are trying to attack me in order to avoid having to defend yourself. That's what makes it an OMGUS attack, and that's very, very scummy.

And no, you really haven't given any kind of case against me that makes sense. You keep making vauge and incorrect statements about my motives during the Capi lynch without explaining why you're attributing those motives to me, you ignore about 75% of the statements I make (I assume because you know I'm right and can't respond to them), but the key thing is that if you found my Capi vote scummy, YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID SO AT THE TIME. At the time, you seemed to be totally in favor of people voting Capi; you only tried to attack me for that after I started seriously attacking you today, and from all appearences, because I started seriously attacking you today.

I really need some other people to explain why they're not voting for RS here, because he seems so incredibly obv scum to me, I don't understand why I'm the only guy voting for him.

[Yosarian2]

Skruffs the fact that she was outside my doorstep meant I could not have done anything to her.

Um, RS, I'm pretty sure that that first mod post was just flavor; I highly doubt that Ether was giving us any information through thoses night scenes.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian: I'm not voting Rotten Snitch right now because I'm getting a lot of newbie-vibes from him, rather than newbie-scum-vibes. I'll reread about your argument soon. Would you care to offer your opinion on Snitch's other opinions, though?

Zindy: Yeah, I know that you had already at least given your reason for not voting RS yet, and I appriciate that; I was mostly asking everyone else, since most people haven't commented at all on my case here yet.

But sure, I'll comment on his analysis:

His comments on Skurffs remind me of his comments on Capi yesterday; very wishy washy; it feels like he wants to encourage others to vote Skruffs but dosn't really want to do it himself, with comments like

If he was right here in front of me playing a meat world game I would have probably voted him but I am still undecided yet

I disagree with him on Eldred, I'm not really sure why he says he has a pro-town read on him.

I really dislike his stance on Mizzy; again, it's a wishy-washy "attack but I don't know" kind of thing. I especally hate his last line, which was

I am leaning towards scum only because the constant bickering between her and Skruffs. One of them in my opinion must be scum or both.

I don't see how Mizzy and Skruffs' bickering implies that "one or both of them must be scum"; in fact, I think there's a decent chance that they're both pro-town.

He pretty much just asks you why you're not voting Skruffs, that's about all he has to say about you here. Which i guess is a reasonable question, but it also fits into the "trying to support a Skruffs bandwagon without being on it" vibe I got from his Skruffs comments earlier.

He says he has mixed feelings from Y; concludes that he has a "townish feel" from him. (shrug)

Tends to think hasdgfas is most likely pro-town. Now that, I tend to agree with, actually.

Ends up voting Andy for lurking. Again, (shrug). I'm never opposed to a good lurker hunt.

[Yosarian2]

Secondly: You seem to be implying, at least, that you think it's possible me and Mizzy are both town. IS this based on analysis of me in this game or because of meta of how I act in other games, or am I going too far in saying that you think I Am town?

Well, I think you could be town, even though I disagree with a lot of what you've done and said so far, because I've seen you act as town in a way similar to how you've acted in this game. It's nothing I'm confident about, becuase I can't recall playing with you often when you were scum and so I don't really have a feel for what your scum meta is, but I don't think you're epsecaly scummy at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

I really can't decide between Yos and RS. I'm not ruling out the possibility of both of them being town, fighting each other blindly.

You really think that's the most likely possibility here, Y?

[Yosarian2]

. If I am lynched and show as town, you still won't be interested in the lines of suspicion of ANY of the players I suggested - instead you will be going after Rotten Snitch, regardless of my alignment.

Huh? I know this was not your main point, but that line confused me; lately, I've actually had the feeling Y might be trying to protect Rotton Snitch.

[Yosarian2]

Y: You've never commented directly about RS or about my case on RS; about the only time you've said anything about him were comments implying that he might be town.

I don't know about RS, but Skruffs did get my attention for being weird and irrelevant.

I think Skruffs is the best lynch. I really can't decide between Yos and RS. I'm not ruling out the possibility of both of them being town, fighting each other blindly.

And then when I asked you to clarify, you just said:

I really can't decide between Yos and RS. I'm not ruling out the possibility of both of them being town, fighting each other blindly.

You really think that's the most likely possibility here, Y?

Nope. I'm not sure about the situation, therefore I don't want to ignore that possibility, which I believe no one pointed until now.
You could also be two scum distancing, but it seems to me that if you were, you probably crossed the line attacking each other.

Which feels a bit iffy to me, like you're trying to avoid actually comitting yourself to anything. I note that whenever you discribe my attacks on RS, you so so in such a way as to imply that me and RS are about equally scummy, which might be something you're trying to subtly suggest to the town , while I tend to thing the truth is more like "Yos made a logical case against RS, RS OMGUSed him back".

Also, the whole "Oh, they might both be town" thing seems wierd to bring up unless you've actually got some kind of gut feeling or something that makes you think that's a real possibility; especally as most people right now aren't voting for either of us, I don't think it's likely that's something that no one's brought up.

Basically, none of that is anything really solid, it could easily be offhand comments on your part, but it's enough to make me think that if RS does come up as scum I'll want to take a closer look at you tommorow.

[Yosarian2]

I'm saying that I can understand both of you and your accusations, and I'm not sure yet who is scummier.

Yeah, you do keep saying that, and that's exactally the thing that's giving me a wierd vibe. You keep trying to equate my attacks against RS and his attacks against me, in such a way that seems likely to get other people to kind of overlook the whole thing and move on to something else; perhaps I'm biased, but that dosn't seem fair at all to me, I really don't understand how you can look at my attacks on him and his OMGUSy reasonses and say "Oh well, look at those two go at it, I wonder which one is scummy".

ANd I realize that in this post you do mention that you think RS is a little scummier then me, but that was only after I called you on it and suggested a possible link.

[Yosarian2]

Again not using you as an excuse I am using you as an example, my posts have been picked apart by You and Yos to be exact. Which is also why I have been suspicious of you two.

You realize that dosn't make any sense, right? Pro-town people will and should be trying to pick apart other people's posts to figure out who's scum and to make cases against them. "Picking apart your posts" is hardly a scumtell.

[Yosarian2]

Meh. I think I already mentioned this, but I don't really feel Skruffs is especally scummy this game; his logic is wierd, but (no offense Skruffs), it pretty much always is.

[Yosarian2]

For Day 2, Yos takes over from Mizzy, although he did do a little bit of groundwork late on Day 1 with his insistence that the Capri wagon was the only game in town (although he also says that he was trying to get Capri to offer a defence).

Uh, I explained what I was doing there about a dozen times. And no, I wasn't "just trying to get Capi to offer a defense"; we NEEDED him to offer a defense, because I was NOT going to explain HIS actions for him before he explained them for himself. And if you actually look, I spent a LONG time trying to get some kind of reaction out of him before finally voting him.

Once the debate between Mizzy and I starts to hot up, Yos positions himself to create an either/or situation. Once I vote for Mizzy:

fos:eldred

Didn't like that last post of his.

His next post goes a step further with a vote based on 'gut.' But, to me, it just looks like he's trying to produce a situation where townies think 'well, either Mizzy or Eldarad are scum, so we should lynch one of them'

I never said that. I never implied that. I never even thought that. I just said that that post of yours looked scummy, and it did.

Here is the post in question:

I said that his play(s) was/were town to me; I have a very strong pro-towner read on him. I couldn't see a scum playing the way he did, and maybe it's just me but the case on him was so weak, there's no way I'd back something like that.

So your reasoning for Capri being town is that he was too stupid to be scum? Since when was intelligence linked to alignment?

And what, I'm supposed to just be okay with a probable mislynch just because we have strict deadlines? I know a no-lynch is horrible but I don't want us settling for mislynches either.

Now you're implying that everyone on the Capri wagon was settling for a mislynch. That gives you scope to attack everyone on that wagon for mislynching.
I was trying to lynch scum yesterday.
Most people were trying to lynch scum yesterday.
You were trying to stay out of trouble yesterday.

And yes, while I feel that my hands are clean, I'm also not holding it over anyone's head.

Yes you are. Every post you've made today has been criticising the Capri wagon, criticising the people on the Capri wagon, bemoaning our lynch of a poor innocent villager...

Well, the argument that Capri didn't try to shake his wagon is a bit of a cop-out reason for things, if you ask me. Just because the person you're beating on doesn't fight back, it doesn't make it okay to beat on them.

Really? You think that refusing to provide a defence constitutes a valid defence? Or is this just another excuse to attack the Capri wagon?

vote Mizzy

That was scummy for several reasons:

1. It seemed like in every single part of your post, you delibratly warp and twist what Mizzy is trying to say. Like, she said "He wasn't playing like I would expect a scum to play like", which is a perfectly reasonable argument, and you respond with"So your reasoning for Capri being town is that he was too stupid to be scum?" which isn't anything like what she said. And you keep doing that, over and over again in that post; the whole post just gives off a bad vibe because of the amount of misrepresentng you crammed into it. She never said that "everyone on the capi wagon was heading out for a mislynch".

2. You seem to be making excuses for your own actions, in a scummy kind of way that feels off to me.

3. You seem to be attacking her, because she didn't like a bandwagon on day 1 that turned out to be a bad bandwagon, and because she said so again on day 2. This whole thing feels like a pre-emptive strike on your part, like you were trying to undermine her in order to protect yourself from her attacking you, which again is scummy.

4. And while it's a minor point, something about the phrase "bemoning the loss of a poor, innocent villager" just sets off alarm bells in my head; it just feels like something a defensive scum would say in that situation

So when I said your post was scummy, when I voted for you, it had nothing to do with any kind of "well, either eldred or Mizzy is scum". It was because you looked hella scummy, combined with me thinking that if there was scum on the Capi wagon, that you came off looking worse then anyone else on the wagon. I would have been glad to explain it to you then, but interestingly, you never asked why I suspected you back then, you just seemed to accept my comment that your post was scummy.

Unfortunately for Yos, the debate kinda died down and other debates kept on going despite his intervention. But that's OK, because the Skruffs-Rotten Snitch still provided a possibility for a either Skruffs or Rotten Snitch lynch decision, based on Day 1 and - to a lesser extent - Today.

And again, you're not making any sense here. Rotton Snitch has always been a suspect of mine. The fact that Skruffs attacked him as well is hardly even relevent, considering that I don't really agree with Skruff's logic on the case and considering that Skruffs has attacked something like 4 or 5 people so far and I don't really agree with as far as any of the other people he's attacked go.

So...Yos thinks we NEED to bandwagon someone. But he dislikes the Mizzy wagon.

Correct. I wasn't fond of the Mizzy wagon then, and I'm not fond of it now, mostly because there's not really a case for lynching Mizzy that makes sense to me.

Instead, he thinks we should lynch either Rotten Snitch or Eldarad, and changes his vote from me to RS for emphasis.

Yup. And I still do. I still think there's a very high chance that the mafia in this game is (Eldrarad, Rotton Snitch, +one other), and I'd be quite happy lynching either of you.

Another exhortation to bandwagon, but he doesn't want to get too far off-message

Yup. We needed to bandwagon then, and we need to bandwagon now.

[quite[Mentions again how we are racing against the deadline clock, and is next vote confirm-votes RS.
The rest of Yos' posts Today are attacking RS, but he also pulls up other people who attempt to suggest that RS might be town (Y, for example).[/quite]

Well, if I think someone might be linked to my main suspect, I'll mention it, sure. I won't act on it until I definatly find out RS's alignment, but it's still a good way to get reactions out of people now to use later, and it's worth mentioning now just in case I get nightkilled tonight. So, what's wrong with that?

This focus on (trying to) limit conversation/bandwagons to a small number of people suggests to me that Yos is scum trying to use the deadline mechanic to his advantage.

Uh...I'm trying to get people to bandwagon people that I think are scum. I've never "tried to limit coversations" at all, and I'm willing to go elsewhere if the case merits it, but so far it hasn't.

So I'm going to start a shiny new bandwagon

vote Yosarian

Why, because I'm attacking your scumbuddy?

On top of that, I find Yos' case on RS totally unconvincing, and I now believe it has only been pushed to further the 'either/or' agenda.

Care to humor us and actually respond to my case, and explain what you don't like about it?

[Yosarian2]

/is here, is waiting to hear from eldred

[Yosarian2]

I do agree that we need to hear more from Andy, he's been pretty lurkerific.

SPecifially, way back on April 11'th, he promised this:

That being said, that dosn't mean that there weren't any scum on the wagon, of course. At the moment, I'm thinking Eldred; it feels like he's massivly over-reacted to some fairly reasonable and vauge posts by Mizzy, to the point where he's giving me a "scum who knows he's pushed a bad wagon" vibe. It's kind of a gut thing, but it's the best I've got at the moment, so

vote:Eldred

I (momentarily) disagree with Yosarian2. I don't think those are valid reasons (yet) to ensure a vote, but I'll reread an Eldarad-only thread and will post my opinion.

But never mentioned Eldarad again. Andy, did you ever do that Eldarad-only reread? If so, what do you think about him currently?

[Yosarian2]

You're creating a distinction that doesn't exist.
I don't dispute that you spent time trying to get Capri to respond. I just don't buy the idea that you were doing it to help the town.

Uh, why not?

He needed to attempt to explain his own actions BEFORE I tried to explain them for him. Once he defended himself, then the real discussion about his alighnment could have started.

And again, it wasn't just about getting him to defend himself, although that was a key, necessary step. As it stood at that moment (partly because of your vote, btw), we were either going to lynch Capi, no-lynch, or have a rapid change in momentum, probably due to a Capi claim or a Capi defense. And out of those three, the one that I didn't want to happen was a no-lynch.

Interesting how this is the first time you have explained (in more than one sentence) why you voted for me...

Well, I broke it down more here, but I did explain when I voted for you that I felt like your post was a massive over-reaction to Mizzy's fairly reasonable comments.

If you are going to vote for me without saying why, that isn't really my problem, and in the absence of a wagon gathering pace on me, I really couldn't care less about your vote. My approach was that if you had wanted to explain your vote, you would have done so. Instead, you're turning it onto me and suggesting that I was at fault for not pressing you.

If I'm voting you, then by definition, it kind of is your problem.

And I actually do think that just ignoring someone's attack and vote on you, and not trying to ask them for reasons or to defend yourself, is actually a minor scumtell on it's own; pro-town people should always defend themselves. It's a fairly minor point, though, might just be a playstyle thing.

And it's especally odd for you to never even try to find out why I'm voting for you or to disagree with my reasons for voting you, and then suddenly much later, long after the vote is gone, for you to decide that me voting for you was some kind of scum tell on my part and to invent, apparently out of thin air, some wierd justification you think I might have had for my vote.

1. It seemed like in every single part of your post, you delibratly warp and twist what Mizzy is trying to say. Like, she said "He wasn't playing like I would expect a scum to play like", which is a perfectly reasonable argument, and you respond with"So your reasoning for Capri being town is that he was too stupid to be scum?" which isn't anything like what she said. And you keep doing that, over and over again in that post; the whole post just gives off a bad vibe because of the amount of misrepresentng you crammed into it. She never said that "everyone on the capi wagon was heading out for a mislynch".

I didn't warp or twist anything. Some things I may have taken a step further than what Mizzy said, in order to show how ridiculous the logic was. For example:

She never said that "everyone on the capi wagon was heading out for a mislynch"

She said that the town had settled for a mislynch in favour of a no-lynch. By implication, the wagon on Capri was formed by townies "settling for a mislynch" in order to avoid a no-lynch.

Well, she certanly didn't say that "everyone" on the wagon did that, though, and as some people on the wagon did basically say they were doing that it's really not an absurd comment for her to make.

And the first one I pointed out was actually far more serious; she makes a perfectly reasonable point here, one she also made before Capi was lynched in fact, and your response is to not only attack her but to totally misrepresent her argument in the process. Kind of feels more like a scum debating trick instead of a pro-town person tryng to find out the truth.

If you recall, another of the points I made against Mizzy - and one you don't seem to have a problem with - is that her deliberately vague blanket statements were allowing her to attack the Capri without antagonising specific people.
If you think that making vague blanket statements so as to avoid antagonising people isn't scummy, by all means say so.

I don't at all think her comments there are scummy, no. If a pro-town person argues against a wagon day 1, the wagon happens anyway, and it turns out they were right about it being a bad wagon, I certanly wouldn't be surprised for them to say the next day "Boy that was a dumb wagon, let's not do that again", even if they don't necessarally want to attack any individual people on the wagon. I just don't see how her comments were anything that a scum would be more likely to say then a pro-town person, no.

Now, I would feel a bit better about her if she started committing to votes and started attacking someone she thought might be scum, but after playing with her a few times I think her hesitancy to vote might be related to her playstyle; still, Mizzy, I think it would be helpful to the town at this point if you could put toghether an attack and a vote against someone more often then you have been so far this game; that's basically the reason I've been saying I'm neutral on you, instead of saying I have a pro-town vibe on you, is because it's hard to read someone who dosn't really attack anyone else that much.

That being said, I still feel like your attack on her here was pretty much an extreme over-reaction to some fundimentally harmless comments on her part, and it was an extreme over-reaction that was backed up by mis-representations and crap logic. And in my next reason, I explain why you, as scum, might be prone to over-react here...

2. You seem to be making excuses for your own actions, in a scummy kind of way that feels off to me.

Where did I make excuses? No-one has attacked me for my position on the Capri wagon and - if anything - I've been trying to get Mizzy to be specific about her attacks.

That's the point; it seems like Mizzy made some vauge and harmless comments, and it looks to me like dramatically over-reacted to them. Which makes me really wonder if you're a scum who knows you did something scummy on the Capi wagon, and so you totally over-reacted to any slight hint that there might have been something wrong with the Capi wagon. Your right that her comments wasn't directed specifically at you, but that's actually why I think you're kind of jumpy on the issue.

I've already explained my position on this (the whole 'pedestal' thing). I won't repeat myself given the time constraints I'm under.

Ok, but I'm not really sure how that's supposed to be a scumtell on her part.

4. And while it's a minor point, something about the phrase "bemoaning the loss of a poor, innocent villager" just sets off alarm bells in my head; it just feels like something a defensive scum would say in that situation

In what way?

Eh. Hard to explain. I guess something about the tone there gives me a weird vibe, like you're shocked that anyone would be unhappy about lynching a townie, or perhaps that you're not at all unhappy yourself that a townie got lynched, or something like that. It is a minor point, more of a psycological/gut thing then a logical argument, but I figured I might as well mention it.

So I'm going to start a shiny new bandwagon

vote Yosarian

Why, because I'm attacking your scumbuddy?

erm, no.[/quote]

Oh, ok. Who's your scumbuddy then?

Care to humor us and actually respond to my case, and explain what you don't like about it?

Why would I defend against a case that isn't about me? I'm just noting that the case is unconvincing because I think it's worth putting my opinion on record. I have no intention of answering it in detail.

Why is that? Especally since you seemed to want me to go into detail about your "case" involving Mizzy. You're the one defending RS here, and I'd be very interested to hear why.

I know it happened. I am questioning the motives for it and, indeed, why it only started when it became apparent that Capri defence was never going to be forthcoming or adequate.

Uh...usually when I pressure someone like that, I am sucessfull in getting them to react in SOME kind of way and in drawing them out into a fight where I can better asses their thought process. I hardly think it was ever "apparent" that Capi was never going to defend himself; in fact, I was constantly expecting that he would defend himself or react or lash out or claim or break down or do SOMETHING that's be useful in figuring him out, if I could just ramp up the pressure for him to do so to a high enough level and keep it there for long enough, and I still don't understand why he didn't.

[Yosarian2]

Mizzy, I think it would be helpful to the town at this point if you could put toghether an attack and a vote against someone more often then you have been so far this game; that's basically the reason I've been saying I'm neutral on you, instead of saying I have a pro-town vibe on you, is because it's hard to read someone who dosn't really attack anyone else that much.

It's not going to be easy for me to remedy this going forward because due to obvious reasons my time is extremely limited. It's not easy to re-read things when you're constantly sleeping or responding to a crying wee one. Things will get easier as time passes, and I will slowly be able to do more, and if my participation level bothers anyone, let me know, and I can seek replacement, but right now, this is as much as I can do.

Of course, Mizzy. By the way, cograts.

Anyway, I don't have any problem with the amount you're participating, you're actually being pretty active by most standards nor do I expect you to do extensive read-throughs or anything. I'm just saying an occasional "that post seemed scummy, vote:X" would help me get a better read on you.

[Yosarian2]

For the love of God, can we please lynch someone today? Like, before the deadline, instead of trying to extend the deadline pointlessly for weeks until we inevitably fail to do so?

vote:Rotton Snitch

[Yosarian2]

LOL what's wrong Yos…night killing me didn't work?

Uh...wtf?

Anyway, we should have lynched you yesterday, and I'm not sure why we didn't.

[Yosarian2]

While RS does seem to be a good option, it seems like we're on a panic lynch. That's not good either.

Panicing? I've been in favor of lynching him for weeks now.

That being said, I still want to hear what RS has to say about Eldred, and vice versa. It feels like they've both been avoiding answering that for a while now.

[Yosarian2]

Actually Mizzy my post was not sarcastic bull at all

Um, so you weren't being sarcastic when you said that you intentionally didn't post in order to spite Mizzy? Because if not, that would be a very anti-town act.

Ok then Mizzy can you possible find it interesting that I have been investigated and turned up town and maybe a few have picked up on it?

Uh, what the hell? No one has claimed any investigative rolls, RS. You trying to find the cop or something?

The fact that you and Yos are really gunning for me makes me think you are pissed nothing happened last night

No, I'm really pissed that nothing happened yesterday.

LOL what's wrong Yos…night killing me didn't work?

I repeat: Actually Mizzy my post was not sarcastic bull at all

[/quote]

That was sarcastic bull. If you are, by some chance, actually pro-town, there's no way in heck that any scum would have tried to nightkill you last night since you look so incredibly scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Mizzy actually you were not gunning for me yesterday and the vote count proves that.

You don't have to consider any possibility that I have been investigated you may continue to assume I am scum and you can leave your vote on me for all I care.

Why would I think that? I'm not going to stop a bandwagon because a cop might have investigated you. A cop might have investigated anyone, or there might or might not be a cop. Besides, if a cop did investigate you, 10 to 1 odds says he'd get a guilty anyway.

But to question others and call them out for not accepting the case on me seems a little rolefishy to me.

Um, it's actually a common way to try and figure out who is linked and who is scum together.

This idiotic OMGUS "everyone who attacked me must be scum or else they wouldn't be attacking me" think you're trying to do here is just going to get you lynched faster, you know. And this whole list of "you believe X and Y are scum, and you believe this, and you believe that" without actually giving any logic or reasoning behind it besides your paranoid/scummy assumption that anyone who's attackign you is scum is not helpful either.

If you think I'm scum, then go ahead and try to make a real case against me. You certanly haven't done so yet, despite all the OMGUS lashing out you've done ever since I voted you yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

But to try and twist that into me spitefully going into no-lynch because of Mizzy.... now thats a stretch Yos
In case you "mistakenly" twisted my words here is my actual quote

LOL what's wrong Yos…night killing me didn't work?

I repeat: Actually Mizzy my post was not sarcastic bull at all

Uh, that's not where you said it, RS. This is what I'm talking about:

And as for the deadline mechanics I posted every 24 hours last weekend when I usually don’t get on to mafia scum and Mizzy this is what you had to say about it

Not wanting to go into no-lynch is very chivalrous of you, RS, but you didn't need to post filler posts quite so often.

I guess this time I figured that filler post every 24 hours was too chivalrous to continue doing.

You basically said that the reason you didn't post on Saturday was because you were pissed off at Mizzy because she attacked you for making a lot of contentless posts before. Now, either you were being sarcastic, or you were serious and spitefully refused to post and helped cause a no-lynch because you were pissed at Mizzy. Or, perhaps, both. That's not a "streach" at all.

[Yosarian2]

Uh....your "gambit"?

[Yosarian2]

Funny Yos, talk about WIFOM....

You basically said that the reason you didn't post on Saturday was because you were pissed off at Mizzy because she attacked you for making a lot of contentless posts before. Now, either you were being sarcastic, or you were serious and spitefully refused to post and helped cause a no-lynch because you were pissed at Mizzy. Or, perhaps, both. That's not a "streach" at all.

No I did not basically say that. you cannot prove that I did or didn’t do this nor if I would or wouldn’t bother Saturday night or Sunday

Uh, first of all, that's not what WIFOM is.

But more to the point, that is pretty much what you said. You specifically said that you "figured" that you weren't going to post once every 24 hours, because you didn't feel "chivelrous" anymore, because of what mizzy said. So, yes, that does sound like you said you chose not to post because you were mad at Mizzy.

If that's not what you were trying to say, then why don't you explain what you actually meant?

The deadline No-Lynch was not completely my fault as there were 4 others (not including myself) who did not bother posting including you Yos so do not try and pin that on me buddy.

I never said it was your fault. I'm pretty pissed at myself that I didn't post that day; I think I posted every other 24 hours period and that was the first time I didn't, and it's frustrating. Your cavileer "I didn't post because you attacked me for posting filler posts" attitude about it is what I find really scummy. Not to mention the way you seem much more focused on the lack on a night kill then you are on the lack of a lynch.

Like I said the last Friday I do not play this on the weekends so no I did not post to be spiteful because that would hurt the town. Nor I did not rush to post in this game either after last weekends outcome.

So...you didn't "rush" to post because you didn't want to be attacked for filler posts? That is what you're saying, right?

[Yosarian2]

Well, we lucked out and the no lynch didn't actually hurt us, but a lynch still would have been better.

But the point is, RS, if you didn't "rush to post every 24 hours" because you didn't want to get attacked for just making filler posts, then you were putting your own well being over the good of the town. You see what I'm saying?

[Yosarian2]

You mean my lynch would have been better.

Yeah, I happen to think so. In any case, lynching you yesterady would be better for the town then no-lynching yesterday and lynching you today.

So...Mizzy's posts made you think you didn't need to post every 24 hours? Really? Huh. Didn't you read the game rules?

so what was your excuse for not posting?

No excuse. I was trying to post every day, and doing a good job of it up to that point. That morning, I forgot to check this thread, and then when I got back home that evening it was already too late. Which sucks, and annoyed me to no end.

However, like I said earlier in the day, we can't expect to keep extending the deadline forever, sooner or later we're going to screw up. I wanted to get a wagon going earlier, before the deadline, so we didn't have to do that, and several people attacked me for it.

[Yosarian2]

why do you think they attacked you for it?

Because people are overly paranoid about "speed lynching" these days? Because people don't understand what good pro-town play is in a situation with limited time? I don't know. In any case, they were wrong.

[Yosarian2]

They were wrong for attacking you?
A bandwagon is good to have going but not because of a deadline threat. It makes it easier to lynch a townie because of the bandwagon and not their play. It allows a last resort and an easy out even though it may not be the best choice at the last minute.

Uh, yes, they were wrong for attacking me just because I said "we need to bandwagon someone and we need to do it now." We did need to bandwagon someone, and we should have done it then. The fact that we failed to do so has seriously coast the town.

And if there's a deadline threat, then yes, we do need to get bandwagons going, because if you don't, then you're risking either a no-lynch or a hastily rushed last minute lynch. I said so yesterday, and events have pretty clearly proven me right.

Trying for an early bandwagon to make the deadline lynch easier is not a good tactic and in my opinion seems scummy. It makes it hard to figure out who the scum on the wagon is and why they were there.

Trying to put together a bandwagon in order to make it possible to lynch someone isn't "scummy", it's what every townie should be doing all the time, and ESPECALLY so when a deadline is coming up.

And you know what makes it even harder to figure out who the scum on a wagon are? A no-lynch.

Right now you and Mizzy are on my wagon but if it continues to grow because the town is more afraid of a no lynch instead of catching scum then I see an anti-town reason to start the bandwagon.

I am voting for you because you're acting like scum, and have been acting like scum all game. If you don't want people on your wagon, then I'd suggest you should act in a more pro-town way.

Using fear of a no-lynch as grounds for yours and Mizzy's vote on me to encourage an early bandwagon?

An early bandwagon? You should have been dead like a month ago. This isn't an "early" bandwagon, it's one that's much, much too late.

Besides, there's no such thing as an "early" bandwagon, especally when it's based on logic. It's never too early to bandwagon; voting people who look scummy and getting other people to do the same is how the town wins games.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian: Who was idle on site during the 48 hour night stage?

That's a reasonable thought. Only problem with that theory is that that would probably require all of the scum to have not been around at night, for them to just fail to get a kill in just because they weren't here. Still, 's worth considering. Why, do you know of anyway who was away during that time?

[Yosarian2]

Yup! And it also means that if scum noticed one or two players idle at that point, they could have no killed to set up a wifom. I'm kind of sad that you would push the point.

...what?

You were the one suggesting that the scum might have no-killed because they weren't around. I was willing to listen to your theory, and asked if you had anyone specific in mind, and now you're "sad I would push the point"? Huh?

[Yosarian2]

Well then, Eldred, who do you think we should lynch?

[Yosarian2]

I was pretty sure that Yosarian2 brought it up first, and I was baiting him to see if he was actually trying to push it. HOwver, like with everything else in this world, I guess I could be mistaken.

Lol. Nope, I'm pretty sure I never said anything like that until you did, Skruffs. In fact, while your suggestion (and yes, I do think it was your suggestion, unless you can point to a quote where someone else suggested that...) that the scum might have been away all night was possible, it's not very likely, since that would require all of the scum to be away the whole time; and I wanted to see where you were going with that, if you were planning to use your theory to put together an attack on someone.

[Yosarian2]

Well then, Eldred, who do you think we should lynch?

The short answer is, at the moment, the RS wagon is the only game in town. It doesn't mean I have to like it.

That dosn't at all answer my question, eldred. You don't have to like the RS wagon, but if you don't, then I do expect you to figure out who you would like to lynch, vote for that person, and explain why. Because if you can't do that, then you're basically doing exactally what you accused Mizzy of doing day 1:

Now you're implying that everyone on the Capri wagon was settling for a mislynch. That gives you scope to attack everyone on that wagon for mislynching.
I was trying to lynch scum yesterday.
Most people were trying to lynch scum yesterday.
You were trying to stay out of trouble yesterday.

It dosn't look like you're trying to find scum, or trying to help the town; it looks like you're trying to stay out of trouble. Which is the one thing that worries me about the RS wagon, actually; I'm really wondering if you're just avoiding it because you're scum who already knows RS is town.

I notice that Mizzy hasn't adopted the pedestal position against the non-voters from Yesterday, which gives me pause before trying to press her again Today.

Uhhh...the non-voters yesterday hurt the town, didn't they? I'm confused about what you're trying to say here.

[Yosarian2]

Yos no crazy talk don't go all fickle and unvote me.

Um, you do know that it's kind of your job to convince us to not lynch you, right?

[Yosarian2]

explanation.... nope you all dont want to hear it. it is WIFOM and will do nothing for the game until we get end game results.

...um, yes, yes I do.

Yos and everyone else will discredit it and hopefully i will be lynched anyway.

What?

If we're in WIFOM (which dosn't make any sense, but ok), and you're town, then you being lynched means town loses. What, exactally, are you trying to accomplish here?

[Yosarian2]

Lol...."WIFOM" in that post should read "lynch or lose". Too many darn acronyms...

[Yosarian2]

This isn't making any sense here.

RS, are you trying to imply you're a bomb or something?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah. I'd hope RS wouldn't be so bad a player as to be acting like this if he actually was town. Of course, I'm not so sure what he'd be getting out of acting like this as scum either, but if he's going to just refuse to answer anything or to be in any way useful, we're probably going to have to lynch him.

Like I said, Eldred's posts today are making me nervous, though, and he hasn't responded to my questions for him yet. I'd be willing to move my vote there instead, if there's enough support for a Eldred lynch today.

[Yosarian2]

Yos that doesnt make much sense. You are hoping im not a bad player to play town like this and you are not sure why a scum would play like this

I'm not sure why a scum would play like you are. I know a town should NOT play like you are. "go ahead and lynch me guys I think my "gambit" is going to work oh and we're in lynch or lose" makes no sense at all from a pro-town person. Neither does your "Yos and Mizzy must be scum because they're attacking me" stuff.

so you would be happy moving your vote onto eldarad?

No. You look scummy, but I hate the way Eldred's been acting today, and I think he might look even scummier then you do right now.

Basically, I'd be willing to lynch eldarad despite your bad play today, becuase his has been even worse. If I could I'd lynch both of you today.

Mizzy I am really hoping you (the town) end up getting me out of this game. Not because I don't want to play it but because I think it would be the best town move.

...

Yeah, that still makes no sense. If you really are town, then a big part of your job as town is to not get mislynched. It's every townies job to not get mislynched, so we can try and lynch scum instead.

[Yosarian2]

Does that mean you accept this as a valid line of reasoning? Because Yesterday you didn't agree with it.

Well, let's say I always find it interesting when someone discribes a behavior a scummy behavior and then a day later does the same behavior themselves, because whenever a person desribes a behavior as scummy, what they usually mean is "I do that as scum".

Specifically, I really don't think Mizzy was trying to stay out of trouble on day 1. But it does look like you've been trying to stay out of trouble today.

Do you think I've been avoiding trouble the whole game? Or just Today? Because the distinction is important.

I think you got into a little trouble yesterday, and so today you've been trying to get under the radar and stay out of trouble.

As for the RS wagon, I just don't like it. I also don't like the lack of alternatives.

That's the point, though. There are 9 people in the game, those are your alternatives. We are (I hope, anyway) going to lynch one of them today. If you don't think it should be RS, then it's your job to figure out who you think we should lynch, vote for that person, and make a case against them..

You were proven correct on Day 1 when you voted to lynch Capri, someone who you didn't really believe was scum anyway. Sorry, but being proven right after you've just helped mislynch someone isn't a great pro-town play, IMO.

Again, I don't expect you to join the RS wagon if you don't like it (although a little more detail about why, exactally, you think he's town might be helpful), but if you don't like it then you need to figure out who do you want us to lynch today.

I don't really understand RS's recent posts. If I read it correctly...
RS is claiming to be a (pro-town) bomb
RS believes that we are a lylo
RS wants to be lynched in order to aid the town.

Assuming I got that right the only way in which, potentially, those 3 things can be consistent is if RS thinks he will be hammered by a scum. But now that he's claimed, that will never happen...

He actually hasn't claimed anything.

[Yosarian2]

Huh. I wonder if a no-lynch might be a good idea. Unless we've got a pro-town power role who's sucessfully preventing kills, in which case perhaps we should lynch and hope we manage to get an extra lynch out of it.

Also, we're probably in "lynch wrong and lose" here. Be careful.

[Yosarian2]

I beleive Skruffs.

Ok. So Skruffs is pro-town, and assuming he interpreted his night power right, Zinderas is pro-town. I kind of thought they both were, but it's nice to have proof.

[Yosarian2]

People left:

Andycyca
eldarad
hasdgfas
Mizzy
Skruffs
Y
Yosarian2 replaces Sir Tornado
Zindaras

1. Assume there are 3 wolves in the game
2. Assume neither Skruffs or Zindy is a wolf

Then, from my point of view, out of:

Andycyca
eldarad
hasdgfas
Mizzy
Y

3 are wolves.

We've now got to go back through the game and figure out who could possibly be linked to who. It shouldn't be hard for us to find the 3 wolves now. (Personally, I still think Mizzy is likely town, so it's probably 3 out of the remaining 4, but that's just my gut)

[Yosarian2]

Ehm... I don't have items...

Like Skruffs just said, this is the kind of thing we don't need people claiming right now....

[Yosarian2]

Yos2's case on RS seemed like skillful scummy Yos taking advantage of unskillful townie RS. I think Yos2 is scum, but I am not "calling it" as of yet, for the record (meta: I've never been wrong when I've explicitly said I'm calling it, 3/3, and I don't want this game to be the first wrong, so I am hesitant to call it!)

Heh...as soon as I saw that you replaced Zinderas, I KNEW you were going to suspect me as soon as you replaced into this game.

Fact is, Rotton Snitch has looked hella scummy basically the whole game. It's easy for you to come in NOW and say "Oh, rotton snitch was clearly just inept town..." but it certanly wasn't clear to anyone before his lynch. In retrospect, I really do think I should have gotten off him and onto Eldred yesterday, as that was what my gut was telling me to do, but eh, he just acted incredibly anti-town all game, I don't regret wagoning him at all.

By the way, I'm sure I don't need to point out that we're in lynch or lose, one wrong vote and we lose. If you're really going to vote me, warn me first, I believe I do have the ability to change your mind if I absolutly have to.

I've also got a gut feeling that Mizzy is probably town. I don't really think Mizzy has really done any "suspicious things" or "backtracked" from them or whatever. If you could be more clear on what you mean on that...

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, before we get too distracted, let me find the scum

Like I said, from my point of view, I'm pretty sure the scum are 3 out of this group of 5:

Andycyca
eldarad
hasdgfas
Mizzy
Y

Again, I also don't think Mizzy is scum, but I could always be wrong about that, so I'll include her in it.

So let me take a quick look at them, see who I can rule out, see who is probably not scum with who else; with a list this small, you can usually work out who the scum have to be just by looking for who's connected with who and trying to figure out who could possibly be a 3 man scumgroup.

Andy:
Could really be scum with anyone; hasn't really attacked anyone who's alive.
Defended Eldred, possible link there

Eldred:
Attacks Mizzy (and also me) pretty hard; his attacks with Mizzy look especally scummy. Dosn't look like distancing at all, looks like he's trying to put together a scummy and rather craplogical argument to get a townie lynched to me.

ELDRED IS NOT SCUM WITH MIZZY

hasdgfas:
FOS'd Mizzy, based on Eldred's (bad, IMHO) arguments. Never voted her, though.
Agreed with me a lot, which is obveously a sign of pro-town-ness. (;))
Hasn't really voted anyone alive; I think the only significant vote I got all game was his vote on RS.

Y:
Earlier, I had him as a possible link to RS. Opps.
Rejected the idea of a Zinderas-Mizzy link
Argued with Skruffs a lot
Later expressed some mild suspicion on Mizzy, several different times.
Voted RS, fos'd Eldred and Skruffs.

...

Right now, I'm thinking that the most likely scenerio is probably either Andy-Eldred-hasdgfas or Andy-Eldred-Y.

I'm not seeing any likely 3 man scumgroups that include Mizzy, considering how many of the other suspects have gone after her or otherwise behaved in such a way towards her that makes me think they're not linked.

[Yosarian2]

By the way, I'm sure I don't need to point out that we're in lynch or lose, one wrong vote and we lose. If you're really going to vote me, warn me first, I believe I do have the ability to change your mind if I absolutly have to.

...damnit, I actually was wrong about being able to prove I wasn't scum. Crap.

[Yosarian2]

Heh...as soon as I saw that you replaced Zinderas, I KNEW you were going to suspect me as soon as you replaced into this game.

Funny... I remember Yosarian2 complaining about me always finding him suspicious... only when he's actually been scum.

Heh. Not complaining, Guardian, I just knew it.

Anyway, I was sure you were going to be suspicious of me; if nothing else, because I've been scum like the last 7 completed games I played with you, lol.

Again, I disagree. He acted fairly newb all game, and I do regret you wagoning a townie to lynch. It is odd that you don't regret wagoning a townie to lynch, Yos.

Considering the information I had at the time, voting RS seemed to pretty clearly be a good idea.

Why Eldred? Where did you say this?

I said so several times yesterday, Guardian. Basically, the way he kept saying "The RS wagon is bad" but refusing to vote anyone else, and also refusing to defend him with any real vigor, made me start to get nervous about the RS wagon; Eldred was just starting to look too much like scum who was just going to sit back and watch a train wreck while keeping his own hands clean. And I've been suspicious of him for quite a while now anyway.

Of course, RS responded to that with a demand that I keep voting him. Then he kept OMGUS attacking me and claiming he had some secret magical gambit that would somehow win the game for the town if only he got lynched, and made other comments that were even worse.

I'm sure I don't need to point out how scummy that looks.

Meh. It's not, just a miscalculation on my part; I thought I was going to be able to more or less confirm myself pro-town today if I had to, but it turns out I actually can't. I'll explain if I have to, although I'd still rather not.

One thing I noted in re-reading though is how aggressively eldarad defends RS. Hmm...

Yeah.

[Yosarian2]

Pet peeve: selective, partial quoting:

Fact is, Rotton Snitch has looked hella scummy basically the whole game. It's easy for you to come in NOW and say "Oh, rotton snitch was clearly just inept town..." but it certanly wasn't clear to anyone before his lynch.

I find the RS wagon to be very unappealing. I would be very reluctant to join that wagon unless something radically changed.

I just finished modding a Newbie Game where Rotten Snitch was a town and gothimself lynched. I don't have any evidence of a game where he was scum, so there's no way to compare, but. Well you can see for yourself. I think the playstyles are similar in both games, but I don't know if his playstyle as scum is different than that as town.

I read after reading alignments, but the whole game I was like "why is RS being suspected...?" You were pretty much the lone voice on him for a while Yos. I don't think the majority of the players wanted to vote RS until you convinced them to on day three, and Skruffs and especially eldarad were opposed to RS lynching. I think it 'certainly was clear to them' that he was a bad lynch before his lynch. Look at Day 2's vote counts for even more evidence of this.

Do you agree with this assessment, Yos2?

Yeah, I was the only guy going after RS for quite a while, and frankly that kind of confused me; at the time I could not understand why I seemed to be the only guy who was finding RS suspicious.

I also read Yos2 to try and understand his perspective more about eldarad. Basically, Yos2 didn't like how eldarad was suspicious of Mizzy, or how he didn't articulate well or respond to questions about his defense of RS. Yes?

Yeah, that was the initial case against him.

Basically, there was a wagon that ended up lynching a townie on day 1. Eldred supported the wagon, Mizzy opposed it. Day 2, Mizzy basically just said "Well, that wagon was dumb", which is pretty much what I'd expect a townie to say in one of those situations where you were right and the town didn't listen to you, and Eldred instantly jumped all over her for that. He misrepresented her in all kinds of ways, tried to make it sound like she was attacking people and at the same time attacked her for not attacking people in a specific enough way, and basically did all kinds of demogagical-style tricks that just felt really, really scummy to me.

The whole thing just came off like he was a really jumpy scum over-reacting to fairly weak and vauge critisism against a mislynch that he was involved in. That post where he was attacking Mizzy there just felt way over the top. I went into more detail about this earlier, I think.

I can kind of see it, kind of can't... I am suspicious of Mizzy and don't think I'm articulating it particularly well, and while I could go back and quote posts of RS and explain why I find them town-like, I haven't answered well about RS either. Does that mean I'm scum? (shrug)

No, I don't think you're scum. Again, it wasn't that he was attacking Mizzy that I didn't like, I was actually pretty much neutral about her at the time, it was the way he was doing it that just set off all kinds of alarms for me.

I also got a pretty bad vibe from the way eldred was acting towards the RS wagon yesterday, as I mentioned.

[Yosarian2]

Uh...Guardian, I'm a bit confused about what post you're talking about; post 63 in the thread wasn't made by Mizzy, and I don't see anything wrong with her post #63 when you do a list of just her posts if that's what you mean. Could you be a little more specific?

[Yosarian2]

Oh, ok, just wanted to make sure we were all discussing the same thing here, heh. So, this post?

Damn, we went from fun little random votes to "I think such and such is scum and here's why." What the hell?

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

By the way, this made me lol, seriously. I snorted soda.

It was a joke, nothing useful (snip)

This has to be a joke

No shit, sherlock

Was it that "we don't have any good reasons to vote yet" comment? I don't agree with that comment from a theory standpoint, but I don't really see it as a scumtell, especally when coming from a player who I have a pretty consistant meta on of rarely or never voting without strong reasons.

Actually, I've got some time, I think I'll go and read though some other games of hers to confirm if my meta on her is correct, one sec...

Looking at her last 5 or 6 games on her profile where she started from day 1, she occasioanlly random votes, but other then that, I can't find any cases where she's placed a serious vote without posting at least 25-30 time herself first, and often a lot more then that; and any vote is usually preceeded by a whole bunch of questions, IGMEOY's, fos's, bigger fos's, ect. I've gone through about 20 pages of her most recent posts, and I havn't yet found any games where she's placed a non-random vote on someone anywhere near that early in the game. So coming from her, no, I don't really think it's a scumtell.

[Yosarian2]

I don't much like Y's play, and Yos is acting odd, I've never seen him try to make someone as town because they can't them as part of a three man scum group. THat's just really REALLY odd, and looks bad on Yos.

...what?

Everyone should be trying to figure out who could theoretically be part of a 3 man scum group and who couldn't. That's how you find the scum in lynch or lose. How is that "odd", Skruffs?

[Yosarian2]

I don't much like Y's play, and Yos is acting odd, I've never seen him try to make someone as town because they can't them as part of a three man scum group. THat's just really REALLY odd, and looks bad on Yos.

...what?

Everyone should be trying to figure out who could theoretically be part of a 3 man scum group and who couldn't. That's how you find the scum in lynch or lose. How is that "odd", Skruffs?

I play the game of "Find one scum at a time", especially considering we can't be absolutely sure that it is a three man scum group. While a three man scum group is "Average", I myself have never used one. What if it is a two man scum group?

I find a two man scum group pretty unlikely, since the town apparenlty isn't completly powerless (according to your own claim), and since the relitivly few kills means it's pretty unlikely there's a scum group and a SK or two different killing scum groups. I'm not 100% certain there's a 3 man scum group, but it's a high enough probability that I'm willing to assume it and see what conclusions can be drawn from that assumption.

Hunting one scum at a time is generally good advice early in the game. At THIS point in the game, however, there are so few suspects left that you can often nail the entire scum group in one fell swoop. That type of analysis, of trying to figure out what plausable scum groups might exist, is INCREDIBLY useful to the town at this point, and incredibly dangerous to the scum, because you don't even need to actually eliminate anyone, you just have to be able to say "A and B are almost certanly not scum together", and you can very often figure out "The scum group has got to be either ACD, or ACE, or CDE, so C has GOT to be scum, vote C", and there's really nothing the scum can do about it.

I would like Y to comment on the post where i said that I thought the most likely scum groups are probably (Eldred, Andy, hasdfas) or (Eldred, Andy, Y). I find it interesting he commented on Mizzy but just ignored that post. Who seems like a plausable scum group to you right now, Y?

[Yosarian2]

You didn't "have a point", eldred. If doing action A gets you attacked, then you'll do action A less often, no matter if you objectivly think the people attacking you are right or wrong.

Anyway, I really can't imagine any situation here where Eldred isn't scum, and I'm about ready to vote for him here, unless anyone has an objection or a logical theory for a scumgroup that dosn't include Eldred and fits the facts as I know them.

[Yosarian2]

Although, yos, what about say, any three of andy, Y, Skruffs, hasdgfas. Would that not be a possible group?


Skruffs and Y and hasd both seem pretty town to me though

Eh. I'm basically assuming Skruffs is town at this point; he was the first person to mention items, which has since been verified by others, and his claim just makes a lot of sense and seems to be both strong and to not fit what I would expect a scum to claim in a lynch or lose situation (I mean, he basically just came out and claimed an innocent on the guy he'd been trying hardest to attack for most of the game; not at all the kind of fake-claim I'd expect a scum to make here). Combined with the fact he hasn't really seemed scummy to me all game, I'd be very, very surprised if Skruffs flips scum.

An Andy, hasdgfas, Y group is theoretically possible, though, you're right about that. I do see a farly strong link between Andy and Eldred though; and like you point out, Eldred just looks scummier then either hasdgfas or Y. I guess I just think that either (Eldred, Andy, Y) or (Eldred, Andy, hasdgfas) are more likely. Although I guess I wouldn't be opposed to a Andy lynch today, but Eldred still seems even scummier to me; most of my suspicion on Andy comes from the link with Eldred and from process of elimination more then anything else.

[Yosarian2]

Lol. Neat. Welcome back, Zindy.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: You find a two man scum group "pretty unlikely", but your form of scum hunting makes your chances of being right 0% if there is one. Why are you willing to take that risk? I've *NEVER* seen you hunt scum like that as town.

I think there's a very high chance there's a 3 man scumgroup. The odds of there being only 2 bad guys in a non-mountanous mini game seen quite small to me, as do the odds that there's 2 killing scum groups considering the low number of kills we've had so far. I'd say there's probably something like a 95% or better chance that there's a 3 man scum group here. Nothing is ever completly certain in mafia; you take the best theory you can get and run with it.

Besides, I certanly wouldn't say that "my chances of being right are 0% if there is a two man scum group". My chances of being right are lower if I'm wrong about there being a 3 man scum group, to be sure, but even if by some bizzare setup twist there was only 2 scum, that certanly wouldn't mean there's a 0% chance eldred is scum.

And I do think that this kind of analysis is always useful to do in a situation where you basically have a large % of scum in a fairly small pool of suspects. If you haven't seen me do this before (and you might not have; I can't really remember when I've actually done it personally, though I've seen it be effectve before), it's just because it's a situation that dosn't come up that often.

I think your form of scum hunting (IE: it's one big logic puzzle) completely plays into the hands of any scum who have been, oh, say, buddying up to towns or bussing from others through the entire game.

Well, you've got to take the possbility of distancing/bussing/ect into account, sure. If you read carefully, though, you can at least sometimes come to the conclusion that distancing/bussing is very unlikely in specific cases.

[Yosarian2]

Agreed. What the hell, eldred? There's absoltuly no reason for a pro-town person to not share that kind of information.

[Yosarian2]

But you were defending him because you thought he was cleared. And instead of pushing htat, you were trying to find out who gave it to you, instead??

No. I didn't want to find out who it came from, I just wasn't sure of where it came from and, therefore, how much I could trust it.

This was my issue - it was an all-or-nothing thing. I either came out and watch the sky come down around our ears and hope it would turn out alright, or I could keep quiet and just make it obvious that I didn't like the RS wagon.
I chose the second option.

You made it clear you didn't like the RS wagon, but you never really argued against it very hard. If anything, it looked like you just wanted to go down on record against it so you'd look better after he was lynched; you never acted like you were really trying to stop it in any way.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. Except without knowing where the item came from I could end up wrongly clearing RS. Then, I wouldn't be preventing a mislynch - I'd be preventing a lynch.

Well, so what you do is there, you share your information with the town but mention that you're not sure of your sanity. Let the town figure out what to do with it. Especally since it didn't at all reveal your role, and thus wouldn't have at all helped the scum, it would have only been more information for the town.

I didn't argue against your

case

as I had no involvement in it. But you, and others, certainly thought I was heavily defending RS Yesterday. RS seemed to pick up on it, and no-one else forced the issue, so I thought I was being effective.

Actually, I thought the same thing yesterday:

It dosn't look like you're trying to find scum, or trying to help the town; it looks like you're trying to stay out of trouble. Which is the one thing that worries me about the RS wagon, actually; I'm really wondering if you're just avoiding it because you're scum who already knows RS is town.

It didn't look like you were trying to strongly defend RS yesterday; you said you thought he was town, but didn't really give any reasons why. If you had reason to think he was town but didn't want to share it for whatever reason, the correct move would have been to strongly defend him (that is, actually make arguments that might convince others of his townieness and of the weakness in the case against him), AND to also try to start a better wagon on someone else. The fact that you did neither of those two things really made me worry yesterady that you didn't really care either way if RS got lynched, you just didn't want to get in trouble for it.

And, by the way, what do you mean "no one forced the issue"? I kept trying to get you to explain why you thought RS was town, and to get you to say who you thought we should lynch if not RS; I even pointed out that I was willing to vote you over the issue. How much more "force" should we have used?

[Yosarian2]

When did Eldred claim that, Skruffs? Did I miss something?

[Yosarian2]

This is interesting stuff, about the items, but I've got to say that without knowing how the items were distrubted, I don't think that any items Eldared may or may not have had really tells us anything about his alignment.

[Yosarian2]

Out of these 4:
(Eldred, Andy, hadgsfas, and Y)
I'm almost competly certain that 3 of the 4 are scum. No one's managed to create any kind of logical case against either Skruffs or Guardian/Zindy at all, and no one's managed to create any kind of logical scumgroup that includes Mizzy but does not include me (and obv I know that theory is false, heh), so I'm pretty sure all the scum left have to be in that group of people.

I'm pretty sure today we lynch either Andy or Eldred. Something about Eldreds latest claims is giving me pause, although I can't explain it logically; his claimed behavior dosn't make any sense as town, and there's no reason to think that scum can't get items, but...I donno, something feels off here, and it's bugging the heck out of me.

Andy, what do you think about everyone? If you're not scum, then who do you suggest the scum group is, and why? Also, could you explain why you were willing to follow Eldred against Mizzy earlier this game, and could you explain why you've contributed so little content for most of this game?

Eldred, could you explain again why you thought it was a good idea for a person with a 1 shot cop item who had gotten an innocent on the person we were about to lynch to not claim that? You had said even before that day that you thought RS was town; if you thought he was town, and knew he was going to be wagoned, why would you investigate him if you weren't willing to confirm him as pro-town if neccessary? Could you explain your thought process for any of that?

[Yosarian2]

So, we go into "deadline" mode after 11:00 PM tonight, is that correct? We're definatly going to need EVERYONE to post tonight after 11:00 PM or tommorow, no matter what, for the reasons Guardian already explained.

Andy: You're right, guess I must have had had you confused with someone else there or something. My mistake.

The biggest problem I had with your play,Andy, was some wierdness reguarding Eldred. First you defend Eldred:

That being said, that dosn't mean that there weren't any scum on the wagon, of course. At the moment, I'm thinking Eldred; it feels like he's massivly over-reacted to some fairly reasonable and vauge posts by Mizzy, to the point where he's giving me a "scum who knows he's pushed a bad wagon" vibe. It's kind of a gut thing, but it's the best I've got at the moment, so vote:Eldred

I (momentarily) disagree with Yosarian2. I don't think those are valid reasons (yet) to ensure a vote, but I'll reread an Eldarad-only thread and will post my opinion.

Note he never says exactally why he disagrees with me, why he thinks that my reasons aren't "valid". He then delayed saying anything else about Eldred, until I asked him about the "reread", he just said:

@yos: I'm doing it right now

Note that the first post happened on April 11'th, and the second post didn't happen until May 1st. Which makes it look like he didn't re-read Eldred when he said he would, and I suspect wasn't really planning on it until I pushed the issue.

And then he never mentioned anything about this re-read again, although he claims in a recent post that he did do it.

Whole thing looks like a scum connection to me. Care to comment, Andy?

[Yosarian2]

/post

At this point, the logical part of my brain is telling me that the most likely scenerio is that Eldred is more or less telling the truth about what items he got and what they do, but that he's probably scum anyway. He said he'd be able to post in about 48 hours, which would be Saturday night. If enough people are going to be around to let us extend the deadline that long, I'd like to give him one more chance to defend himself. I plan to vote for someone on Sunday, though.

[Yosarian2]

With 8 alive, and at LYLO, I'd rather have one more night and risk a NK. Obviously if I get a wolfsbane I am using it on Eldarad tonight.

Yeah, a NL wouldn't be disastors today. I do think, though, that someone or something has probably prevented the scum from killing a couple of times (I don't know if it's items or a role or something); and so I would rather lynch in the hopes that at some point another kill will be prevented and then we'll get an extra lynch.

[Yosarian2]

I actually might be going away this weekend.

It's after 11:00 now, so I should be set for Saturday, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to post on Sunday now. So, to be safe,

vote:Eldred

, so we don't miss our window if I can't get back on over the weekend.

[Yosarian2]

At this point, the logical part of my brain is telling me that the most likely scenerio is that Eldred is more or less telling the truth about what items he got and what they do, but that he's probably scum anyway.

Why do you think that? You've been saying that you think I am scum for what seems like months now, so the only "new" thing is the items. And if you think I have told the truth about the items, how does that reinforce the opinion that I am scum?

Dosn't reinforce my opinion about you being scum. Just that it's mostly irrelevent to the issue of your alignment.

I think you're probably telling more-or-less the truth about the items you got; it's probably be too risky to make something like that up out of whole cloth, although you can never tell. But I don't have any reason to think that scum are any less likely to get items then anyone else; it might be random, or it might be given out by an inventor (or inventors), or it might be something else, but it basically dosn't change anything.

Given your assertions that:

After thinking about it, and after some of Eldred's more recent posts which felt a little less scummy, I came to the conclusion that I was happier with lynching you

[RS]

then lynching Eldred, although I wouldn't mind either one and I think there's a good chance that the two of you are scum together.

I still think there's a very high chance that the mafia in this game is (Eldrarad, Rotton Snitch, +one other), and I'd be quite happy lynching either of you.

how does RS coming up town change your thoughts on the game? Or are you going to continue lynching scummy looking townies until you win?

I'm going to keep lynching people who look scummy until I lynch all the scum and win.

Yes, at one point, I thought there was a high chance that you and RS were scum together. That dosn't change the fact that I also had and have a number of scum tells on you that were independent of anything I think about anyone else.

Just as an aside, somebody has said something in-thread that suggests to me that they are an item-giver, or at least have seen what some of the items do.

<------- Scum is fishing. Please no one respond to this.

[Yosarian2]

Also, I note that there have now been 2 votes on Eldred all weekend, when it's 5 votes to lynch. If I was wrong about Eldred, and if me and Guardian are both town, I'd have expected the 3 scum to start to pile on and lynch him by now. The fact that that hasn't happened has made me even more confindent I was right, Eldred is scum.

[Yosarian2]

Skruffs: We're assuming the bad guys are warewolves, right? Why would warewolves need any special items to kill people? And this part of the description of Elmo's death...

There is a ghastly expression on his face, or at least, most of it.

Does make it sound like he was mauled by warewolves. So I don't think your theory that the warewolf kills are stackable and item-based makes a lot of sense; although it is always possible a warewolf might get an EXTRA kill out of an item, which is kind of a scary thought.

Besides, even if you were right, what difference does it make? We still just lynch a bad guy today and hope we get rid of the one that has the killing items or however that works, right?

[Yosarian2]

OK, that's Option A.
Option B is that the scum see jumping on my wagon in order to secure a quicklynch would see them all strung up on Day 5, 6 and 7. Or they're just waiting for some nervous townies to do half the work for them, Capri-style.
Option C is that you're scum.

Option B is invalid. If there's 3 scum, then a mislynch here=scum win, so they don't care about day 5, 6, and 7.

And yes, like I said, the fact that you haven't been quicklyned strongly implies that either you're scum, Guardian is scum, or I'm scum. I know I'm not scum, and I'm pretty sure Guardian is town. IE, you're scum.

[Yosarian2]

/post

[Yosarian2]

SInce it's after 11, /post

Also, need more votes on eldarad, ect

[Yosarian2]

I'm not voting yet because we're probably in LYLO (Assuming 3 scum, of course), and I don't want to do anything until I'm sure it's the right thing to do.

While a no-lynch is bad, a mislynch could be far worst.

Well, do you have an opinion on Eldarad, Y?

[Yosarian2]

What I don't get in regards to the eldarad wagon is why he would not talk about the investigation while RS was alive, and then would bring it up for apparently no reason after he had died. Wouldn't it have been better to just not bring it up? Or to claim a result on a living person that he would already know is town?

As scum, how does it benefit him?

I might be playing D.A. here, just strikes me as funny. And by funny, I mean, "Worth thinking about".

Well, part of the reason I was attacking him was that yesterday he looked like a scum who already knew Eldred was town and who was therefore avoiding the wagon without actually trying very hard to stop it or to encoruage anyone else to be lynched. I think the claim was a defense against that, an excuse for why he already knew RS was town, but it dosn't at all answer the rest of the point, which is the question of why he didn't try all that hard to stop the lynch then.

[Yosarian2]

/post

[Yosarian2]

Ok. We need to do this lynch before Guardian leaves for vacation. Let's get voting, peoples.

[Yosarian2]

as opposed to a regular day, I actually think that a no-lynch won't be such a bad thing, if the alternative is to kill some one just for the sake of killing some one. Especially if the possibility of no NK is as real as in this game, after the last two nights.

Lynching scum, of course, would be much better.

The possibility of a no kill is the REASON we don't want to miss a lynch today.

Remember how I had a list of 4 people, and said that 3 of the 4 of them must be scum? If we lynch every day, and the scum miss at least one more kill before the end of the game, then we have 4 lynches left, and are therefore basically guarenteed to win.

Also, it is starting to seem like you're really trying quite hard to delay or prevent an Eldred lynch here...

[Yosarian2]

Well, part of the reason I was attacking him was that yesterday he looked like a scum who already knew Eldred was town and who was therefore avoiding the wagon without actually trying very hard to stop it or to encoruage anyone else to be lynched. I think the claim was a defense against that, an excuse for why he already knew RS was town, but it dosn't at all answer the rest of the point, which is the question of why he didn't try all that hard to stop the lynch then.

Either you think I'm telling the truth about the items, or you don't. You can't have it both ways. If you think I made up the Moonshine as a 'defence' then say so. But then you need to reconcile that with your statement that:

I think you're probably telling more-or-less the truth about the items you got; it's probably be too risky to make something like that up out of whole cloth

I think that you, or someone in your scumgroup, probably got an item called "moonshine" that can detect warewolves; I don't think you were lying about that, it just sounds like something Ether would come up with. You might even have used it in the way you're saying, just in case of trackers or whatever. That dosn't change anything about your alignment or about your motivation for claiming, though.

If I have to nail my colours to the mast right now, I'd go with

vote Mizzy

Not only do I think that we'll lynch scum, it will also expose Yos' "list of 4" for the sham it really is.

Mizzy is pretty obv town at this point. Of course, you're pretty obv scum, so it dosn't really matter who you vote for, so long as no pro-town people are dumb enough to follow you.

I do find it interesting that you've been mostly attacking me for quite a while now, and yet now you turn back and vote mizzy instead, right after Skruffs says he "thinks she's scum".

[Yosarian2]

Remember how I had a list of 4 people, and said that 3 of the 4 of them must be scum? If we lynch every day, and the scum miss at least one more kill before the end of the game, then we have 4 lynches left, and are therefore basically guarenteed to win.

You're missing one very important thing: This list is based on you being town and so does TT, but we have no reason to believe that's true. So far you've been pushing a lynch every day and you pushed in a wrong way every time. Forgive me for not following your "great" logic for once.

Of couse I'm assuming I'm town in my own logic. If you want to make your own list, go for it.

Also, I like your "Yos was wrong yesterday, so let's lynch him" desperation logic. It's becoming quite clear that you and Eldred are scum together, and like I expected, you're both getting desperate now that I've figure out who the scum are.

Besides Skruffs and TT, who are more or less confirmed, we have

six

people. Our chances are probably 50%-50% in a LYLO situation. Those are not good odds to push a lynch just for the sake of avoiding a no-lynch. With all the missed NKs, it seems like mislynches are the best way for the scum to win, doesn't it?

Uh...so your suggestion is that we just don't lynch and let the scum kill off one of the two confirmed people? How the hell does that help us?

No lynching when there's an even number of people CAN be a good idea, but NOT when there's confirmed pro-town people around.

You all wanted both a decision, and a good candidate for a lynch, so here it is:

Vote Yosarian2

.
I'm tired of you knowing exactly what the town must do while dragging us all down the drain.

(nods) As expected.

We've got them, guys. Time to wrap this up.

[Yosarian2]

Also, it's cute the way Y votes for me and then implies Eldred is probably scum in the same post, even though it should be pretty clear that me and Eldred are not scum together at this point. I've never seen such obvious scum distancing in my life.

[Yosarian2]

Post

[Yosarian2]

I don't know about you, Yos, but I didn't see a NK for the last two nights, so I think the one so strongly in favor of a lynch, no matter what, is probably the scum, worried about the two nights he didn't kill and the no kill that will obviously follow.

You're completly missing the point, Y; I'm not sure if it's deliberate or not.

If we lynch every day, and the scum miss 1 more nightkill, then we have 4 chances to find the 3 scum. If we fail to lynch, then we can lose that chance. 4 chances to find the scum>3 chances to find the scum; it just inproves the town's odds.

Or, to put it another way, if we lynch correctly today and then the scum fail to kill, then tommorow we won't be in lynch or lose anymore. How is that not a good thing?

And who said anything about "wanting to lynch no matter what"? I want to lynch Eldred. He's pretty clearly scum at this point. Even in your very last post, you basically said that he was probably scum. When is it ever a good idea to no-lynch rather then lynch someone who's probably scum?

What, exactally, do we gain from a no-lynch today? And if you really think a no-lynch is the right move, then why are you voting for me instead of a no-lynch?

Honestly, I can't think of any explination for your sudden "Vote Yos because he dosn't want to no-lynch!' irrationality, except for thinking that you must be scum with Eldred, and you're suddenly worried because you're suddenly in trouble now that I've figured out who the scum are. If there's a chance the scum might miss more nightkills this game, then lynching today is CLEARLY a better option then no-lynching today, and I really have trouble believing that a pro-town Y wouldn't understand that. If you have a better explination for your actions, I'd like to hear it.

[Yosarian2]

Also, Guardian said he was going on vacation "in 3 or 4 days", and he said it 3 days ago. Without him, we won't reliably be able to keep the deadline going.

Can we PLEASE lynch the scum now, instead of letting the clock run out again?

[Yosarian2]

Oooh.
Yos just shot WAY up there....

...um, care to clarify?

[Yosarian2]

/post

[Yosarian2]

Yos, I don't want a no-lynch, but to be sure we make the right one. At this point, a no-lynch is better than a mislynch.

My logic is this: scum-lynch>no-lynch>mislynch. Since making a mistake could mean game over, I prefer to be sure before I actually get a lynch. I never said I'm pro-no-lynch, but that it's not such a horrible outcome as you make it seem, if the alternative is to lynch at all costs.

Ok...but how would waiting another day help us be any more sure then we are right now? I mean, if the scum kill, the scum will probably just kill off one of the confirmed, so that dosn't help us eliminate anyone.

While I do agree that eldarad's play is scummy, I'm starting to see a pattern here: Every day we choose a player who's been playing horribly and did some stupid mistakes, we lynch him, he comes up town.

(shrug) Well, you know, the town is not always going to be right. We still have to try, though. And in Eldred's case, I don't think that "pro-town person who's made a few mistakes" is really a likely explination here, do you?

I'd also like you to explain where did you get the number of chances we got. I can't seem to follow your logic on that.

Ok...assume for the momement there are 3 scum left. If the town lynches every day and the scum kill every night, then we basically have to hit scum 3 times out of 3 to win; we have 3 lynches left to find 3 scum. (Lynch scum, scum kills, tommorow 2 scum out of 6; lynch scum, scum kills, next day 1 scum out of 4). However, if we lynch (hopefully scum) and the scum miss a kill, then tommorow it's they'll be 7 people left (if we hit scum, it'd be 2 scum out of 7; then we lynch again, making it 5 people left when the scum kill, and get one more lynch making it 3 people left), so we'd then have 4 lynches left instead of 3; basically, we get an "extra lynch" that way. So if we lynch every day, and the scum miss a kill somewhere along the line, then we get 4 lynches left, instead of just 3.

On the other hand, if we no-lynch and the scum miss a kill, then it dosn't help us the way it would if we lynch and the scum miss a kill; instead we'd just be in the same situation we are in today.

[Yosarian2]

I also think it's really important that the artifical restriction created by Yos' "list" is broken down ASAP.

Of course want to break down my "list", because you know I'm right, and you know that if the town listens to me you're probably going to lose.

[Yosarian2]

There's a disconnect in your thought process there - I either made up the result, or I actually used the item. I can't do both/neither.

Well, how about "you may have used it, or you may have made it up, but you certanly didn't act like a pro-town person who had a one-shot investigative item would act"? I don't know if you used it or not, but even if you're telling the truth here, that would mean you did NOT act in a pro-town way here.

Plus, you seem to have missed the point that it wasn't a one-shot cop. Unless you know that the scum are werewolves, in which case I'll defer to your judgement.

...really? You really don't know if the scum are warewolves? Let's take a look at Ether's first flavor post, third post in the game, ok?

Disclaimer: a player's appearance in cutscenes is not affected by its in-game role and/or alignment. Don't try it.

You have a horrible, scary night. If you get any sleep at all, it involves nightmares of being torn apart by werewolves, with only a fancy Ellipsese graphing calculator to defend yourself. Finally, you get out of the house, into the safety of the majority.

You see someone else--Rotten Snitch--tap a large man he probably doesn't know very well on the shoulder and whisper, "Watch my back."

In a very loud voice which you are

sure

will draw werewolves, that idiot, the man replies, "Huh?"

"From the werewolves!"

"Oh. Um. Okay."

Appalled by the ignorance, Skruffs jumps in at this point. "You know, the werewolves! They killed the mayor!"

Rotten Snitch stares at him. "Wait, they killed the mayor?!"

Skruffs shrugs. "Missing. But there was that girl who was running around shouting about werewolves earlier. She's also not here. Maybe they killed

her.

"

"No, the shipments of Seizure Party 6 just came in."

"Oh." Skruffs considers this for a few minutes. "So...nobody's actually dead."

"Strappado is dead."

Rotten Snitch glares at the laughing NPC who's supposed to be protecting him. "Look, maybe she was kind of feral, and maybe she did sleep on my doorstep a few times, but she meant well. She left me a squirrel once. And she had a steady day job as an insurance agent--it'd be stupid to sell everyone insurance and

then

kill them."

"I'm out of here," the NPC says. In fact, it turns out that very few people are interested in saving Caret. And there are others like JDodge who would have helped, but got wrapped up in the Seizure Party surplus instead. Soon, there are only eleven of you crazies left standing in your little lynchcrowd.

But you know it's up to you.

---

Strappado (Gaoler) is dead. It is now Day 1; with 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Game goes to deadline on Wednesday, at March 18, 3:00 am GMT.

(EDIT: deadline moved up.)

Many, many of the mod's flavor posts discuss warewolves. Your item has a warewolf flavor. Meanwhile, I don't see any mod flavor that mentions anything about mafia; I don't see any mention of anyone being shot or anything like that. Could you explain why you were in so much doubt about the scum being warewolves that you thought your night investigation to find out if someone was a warewolf wasn't even worth mentioning?

[Yosarian2]

/posting

Also, I agree with Guardian.

[Yosarian2]

It's probably up to you now, though, Mizzy...Guardian's leaving tommorow, so if you don't hammer today or tommorow, it's probably going to be a no lynch. I think the two pro-town people not voting for Eldred now are you and Skruffs, and I don't think Skruffs is going to join the wagon.

[Yosarian2]

/post

[Yosarian2]

/posting

Mizzy, if we don't have a lynch today, then it probably just means GUardian dies tonight and tommorow it'll be even harder to do anything.

[Yosarian2]

Wait... if we lynch Eldarad, Guardian *won't* Die tonight?
What are you getting at, Yos?

Uh...no, that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm just saying that if we don't lynch, we'll probably be back in the exact same situation tommorow, except without Guardian.

[Yosarian2]

/post