Micro 880: A Normal Game - Game Over!

[Ircher]

Day 1 VC #13

Oversoul (0) -

OkaPoka (4) (L-1) - skitter30 (191), Oversoul (404), callforjudgement (417), TemporalLich (425)

Dunnstral (0) -
Kop (0) -
skitter30 (2) - Firebringer (279), Dunnstral (587)
Firebringer (0) -
TemporalLich (2) - Sleepless Assassin (158), OkaPoka (164)
Not Voting (1) - SweetNSassy

Lynch Threshold

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch a player.

Deadline

Day 1 will end on July 13, 2019 9:30:00 PM EDT (GMT-4) or in (expired on 2019-07-13 21:30:00).

Moderator Notes

1. If you have regular weekend V/LA, you must either notify me each time or set V/LA tags each time.
2. If you see any errors in the votecount, please let me know.
3. OkaPoka is V/LA until July 10, 2019.
4. Firebringer is V/LA indefinitely.

Voting History Key: * = Hammer, + = L-1 vote.

Spoiler: Current Voting History

Day 1

the worst (5): skitter30 (90) --> (Null) (168) --> OkaPoka (169) --> (Null) (253) --> SweetNSassy (340)
Oversoul: OkaPoka (404)
callforjudgement: Firebringer (94) --> OkaPoka (157) --> the worst (222) --> OkaPoka (417)
OkaPoka: SweetNSassy (85) --> Dunnstral (105) --> TemporalLich (164)
Dunnstral: SweetNSassy (300) --> the worst (397) --> skitter30 (587)
Sleepless Assassin: TemporalLich (93) --> Dunnstral (108) --> TemporalLich (158)
skitter30: OkaPoka (191+)
Firebringer: Dunnstral (91) --> skitter30 (111) --> Dunnstral (138+) --> skitter30 (279)
TemporalLich: OkaPoka (87) --> Dunnstral (109+) --> OkaPoka (167) --> Firebringer (285) --> OkaPoka (425+)

Spoiler: Previous Voting History

Dawn (Pregame; reference purposes only)

Sleepless Assassin: callforjudgement (14)

[OkaPoka]

lol u sr me for pointing out a gap in your logic?

the one where you sr firebringer for not giving explanation but then you yourself said he gave explanation, it just happens you disagree with it?

I can see scum!you doing it to look like you're defending firebringer by attacking me

okay i just want this for the record

you still standby the idea that firebringer is scummy bc he didn't explain his skitter sr even when he did explain skitter sr by your own admission

its loaded but yeah

[OkaPoka]

someone vote lich lol

[TemporalLich]

and if that post only indicates me being scum with firebringer then how does that bump firebringer up to less scummy LOL

the scale of the readlist was adjusted

okay i just want this for the record

you still standby the idea that firebringer is scummy bc he didn't explain his skitter sr even when he did explain skitter sr by your own admission

its loaded but yeah

I want firebringer to explain his skitter SR in more depth so I can know why firebringer SR's skitter

[OkaPoka]

Here's the timeline.

t_w and lich imma need some readslist from you two <3

here's a read list I guess

town

- CfJ, skitter

town lean

- sleepless, the worst

meh

- sweetnsassy, dunn

scum lean

- oka

scum

- firebringer

tw and dunn might be one tier too high, meh

Firebringer is the most scummy here.

You yourself admit that I made towny posts from that post to 425 (which is your vote on me btw)

You also admit that firebringer is less scummy because I've been so scummy.

But the only post I made in that time that made you feel like was scum motivated, implicates both me and firebringer as scum.

So the questions are

1) When you voted me at 425, was I the top scumread for you?
2) How does me making townier posts lead you to vote me, when I wasn't even your top scumread at the time?
3) How does making a post that implicates me and firebringer make it so I go from second scumread to first scumread and firebringer goes from first scumread to second scumread?

[TemporalLich]

someone vote lich lol

the wolf howls

[TemporalLich]

You yourself admit that I made towny posts from that post to 425 (which is your vote on me btw)

You also admit that firebringer is less scummy because I've been so scummy.

But the only post I made in that time that made you feel like was scum motivated, implicates both me and firebringer as scum.

So the questions are

1) When you voted me at 425, was I the top scumread for you?
2) How does me making townier posts lead you to vote me, when I wasn't even your top scumread at the time?
3) How does making a post that implicates me and firebringer make it so I go from second scumread to first scumread and firebringer goes from first scumread to second scumread?

yes

consensus probably was a factor, idk tbh

I'm gonna say it doesn't make sense

[OkaPoka]

skitter wya

[skitter30]

?

[OkaPoka]

thoughts on my case?

[skitter30]

i think u caught him in a contradiction but i'm not sure that contradicting himself is inherently scummy

what's ur read on me?

[OkaPoka]

but he doesn't admit it until i laid out the cards for him

and his reads and vote pattern seems very intent on never having any sort of contradiction

isnt that scummy?

i think ur town but im using this interaction to sort you

[OkaPoka]

like look at his response to my case

his first instinct is to make his narrative seem clear

but once i explicitly lay out everything in a concise manner he just is like yeah shit

[OkaPoka]

And it's now even more opportunistic in his behavior

[skitter30]

i think you thought about his reasons more than he did, and i think that town sometimes just does stuff, like vote people, on a whim without thinking about it too hard

that's the situation i think you caught him in

it doesn't read as scummy to me really, more like he just kinda did something without thinking about it too much

[OkaPoka]

okay but clearly temporal lich is not the type of person to vote people on a whim

by his own admission he had me top scum

and every time he was serious about a vote

[OkaPoka]

which makes me suspect that his readslist with top scum firebringer was fabricated, no?

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Skitter30

I don't like their push

Uh huh

Do tell

I voted you on a whim, without thinking about it too hard

[OkaPoka]

dunn do u like my case

[callforjudgement]

I don't think Lich comes off especially scummy from this exchange.

I do think it makes it more likely that OkaPoka is town, though (either that, or OkaPoka's scumbuddy has been yelling at him to change his play in the scum thread). The reasoning makes my head hurt but it doesn't seem out of character from what OkaPoka's posted elsewhere in the thread, and I don't really see scum OkaPoka suddenly looking for reasons to justify an existing scumread after spending pages defending not having any (except on request from a scumbuddy). I need to do a meta dive on this but a) I'm lazy, b) I'm a bit busy with non-Mafia things at the moment and c) it's 2am. If I haven't within a couple of days, someone remind me.

VOTE: Kop
I'm concerned that Kop hasn't been reading more widely in the game yet; he's been focused on a) OkaPoka (fair enough for a first action in the game to focus on the player at L-1, but I'd expect something besides that), and b) "obvious" follow-up questions that don't contain any analysis, they're just questions that would likely come to mind for anyone reading the thread (e.g. #564). There's nothing really wrong with what Kop has been posting (#562 is more defensive-for-no-reason than I'd like, but it's only one post and not a major scumtell), but the lack of posts on other subjects is concerning; it's showing less curiosity than I'd expect from a townie. For example, I'd expect Kop to have been looking at the OkaPoka/Lich interactions based on how frequently he's been mentioning them, and yet there's no comment on TemporalLich's alignment (all the read there is focused on OkaPoka).

[OkaPoka]

whats wrong with my case

[callforjudgement]

People can be inconsistent in how consistent they are without being scum.

If someone is taking ridiculous care to make sure everything they say lines up, they're probably only going to go to that effort as scum; it's just not worth it as town. As town, you often want to go to that effort to some extent, because it a) helps you avoid getting confused about the gamestate and b) makes it less likely you'll be scumread by people who scumread for inconsistency, but it's rarely worth it to go all the way. (That said, putting in that sort of effort is rare even as scum.)

This in turn implies that inconsistent amounts of consistency are unlikely to be a scumtell.

(On the subject of inconsistency: why aren't you scumreading me, or are you? Just like TemporalLich, I've been mostly consistent in my posts, and my votes have matched my reads, but I've made the occasional mistake like mixing up whether it was skitter or Oversoul who made a particular post I remembered from the thread.)

[OkaPoka]

the way i see it, it really comes down to this for me.

temporal lich is basically displaying signs of backward rationalization, where he chooses the vote and then puts the read. he's been trying to mask his opportunism with his srs and vote changes, but his reads dont actually progress naturally because well, he isn't town. his reads come after his votes. thats why i am making a big deal out of his inconsistencies in between his firebringer and me scumread and how it doesnt make sense because he's justifying things after he does it.

for you however, i don't see clear signs of backward rationalization. maybe you have and ill have to reread you in depth. but its kinda clear from the get go that lich is just making stuff up .

[OkaPoka]

probs should've proofread my above post but the point still stands

lich does his read after his votes

his vote at 425 is a really good example of this, he hasn't actually been sorting me lol

[OkaPoka]

like i agree townies are hypocrites and inconsistent

but i dont think this is a towny inconsistency