Micro 892: TemporalLich's Micro Normal [Game Over]

[Klick]

Which Mena post?

[Menalque]

Think he means 862

[Datisi]

A softclear really doesn't mean that much.

And they don't do the same thing?

The

Tracker

learns who a player targeted, but not what action that player performed.
The

Follower

learns what action a player performed, but not who that player targeted.

Though at this point in the game they're pretty similar.

And I'm also assuming 862? Was still thinking TvT tunnel at the time, I'll go reread a bit later

[Menalque]

Klick I like you less the more I skim your ISO

Mostly getting iffy over your dong v mena being tmi-y and the fact that you’ve been pushing heaven/vex!slot as scummy since D1 but always been happy to compromise off it p easily. I think you could have been bringing him here to be mislynched

Also your prog on datisi seems weird. NE could be scum if it’s paired with something imo

Plus the fact you’re clearing her through mechanics while calling vex scum by play

[Menalque]

Then again, I reread dats ISO p recently and came away thinking she’s strongly town

So I could also see you bussing today from early to try and get the towncred to win in 4p mylo

[Menalque]

If you are town, talk to me about vex/dats bc that’s the only other possibility

[Menalque]

Think he means 862

Incidentally I was hoping I wouldn’t have to engage with this because I wasn’t in the mood to 1v1 you when I don’t even want you lynched but I guess I’ll have to seeing as you’re still so tunnelled

Not doing it from my phone tho so you’ll have to wait until later

[Donempire]

Im not tunneled on you, i think you're irreddeamably scum but i have decided on that after reading so many of your posts. Trust me, i do not view them in a bad light.

[Donempire]

By that i mean i dont go in expecting to find you acting scummy. I go in trying to determine you and it always ends up on the same conclusion.

Truthfully i was tunnelled on you D1 but i've been analyzing your posts more carefully. I think while not as bad as i initally took them as i still dont like them. I'd at least want you to respond if you want me to change my mind.

[Menalque]

I will respond in depth but when I’m on my laptop

[Klick]

Plus the fact you’re clearing her through mechanics while calling vex scum by play

Then again, I reread dats ISO p recently and came away thinking she’s strongly town

So I could also see you bussing today from early to try and get the towncred to win in 4p mylo

So it's scummy that I think Datisi is town for role-related reasons but Vex is scum by play. But you then call Datisi town by play and use that to imply a me/Vex scumteam, despite your mechanics-based hesitation to lynch Vex today...

[Klick]

Menalque, tell me what the difference is between how you handled you Dong read here and how you handled your Gamma read in Ruby. What can I look at between the two games that you did differently here, that shows you're town?

[Menalque]

Do you wanna answer 930? Also yes, there’s a distinction which is that you’re doing mechanics based on pure speculation, whereas mine is based on a conf!town saying that vex did not kill last night ie something that we know

[Menalque]

I think that I can pretty clearly be seen to have a trajectory on dong from questioning to probing, all of which reinforced my belief he was scum because I didn’t think he was engaging with me a lot of the time

Whereas with gamma I’d decided before I came in that I wanted to be super aggro as a style so I picked someone I thought I could plausibly SR (cinn, who was playing differently) and decided to laser on gamma

[Menalque]

I can be this aggressive as either alignment, it’s how I went into it that shows I’m town here

Look at 1949 where I lynched grimm in more or less the same way I went after dong

Dong is just not a newbie and has the advantage of being a PR who was able to conf himself which let me untunnel

[Menalque]

Now I’d like you to answer 930 because right now I think (klick, vex) and (klick, dats) are both more likely than (vex, dats)

[Klick]

Do you wanna answer 930? Also yes, there’s a distinction which is that you’re doing mechanics based on pure speculation, whereas mine is based on a conf!town saying that vex did not kill last night ie something that we know

When did Dong actually become conf!town? I feel confident he's town and he's never getting lynched, but he's not conf!town. You didn't think he was conf!town for a while yesterday. So where did that come from?
I said yesterday that I don't think Datisi kills Icon N1 with the knowledge that there are neighbors (and she clearly had early knowledge of the neighbors in some capacity even if she's scum). That's not a simple mechanics-based read.

I'll look at 930 after I look at Dong's case on you. But frankly, my off-the-top response is that right now I think the most likely scumteam is you/Vex and I don't really want to make a case for a scumteam that I'm not actually seeing. Curious why you're not seeing Vex/Datisi as a scumteam though, since you seem to already have a take on this.

[Vex Vience]

i got mailman'd and was told this:

[Vex Vience]

also, i really don't fucking wanna play this game after seeing saude flip town and their horribly scummy play tbh.

[Vex Vience]

vex also isn't scummy by play, whoever said that is a liar, esp if it's mena or datisi. this is like the only time trying to meta-read me as korina is actually justified.

[Vex Vience]

ok, i saw who said im scummy by play. kilck, i'm not scummy by play. sure lurking is part of my old scum-meta and you could theoretically read me on that, however, that's literally the hardest one to read me off of since i do it as both town and scum. mostly when im not into a game, but it happens as both alignments. you trying to tell me my play of lurking due to IRL is scummy is scummy itself.

VOTE: klick die scum

[Klick]

Spoiler:

I mean I'm about to have dinner but if town is so deep into the too scummy to be scum wormhole then I guess lynch me so long as dong never ever ever lives past tomorrow

I, however, am not way too deep up the too scummy to be scum wormhole, so I'd rather just lynch scum today

VOTE: dong

he literally claimed masons only to have that outright counterclaimed

then he self-voted, which again, why does town do that here?

The classic "lynch me but lynch this guy tomorrow" ultimatum. I dont need to point out that this only comes from scum unless the guy saying that has already claimed and is getting lynched. Reason being that this makes it seem as though they are risking something by saying they arent afraid of a lynch. Menal is pretty much the golden boy for this kind of behaviour, almost all of his posts after my mason claim include some sort of "lynch me idc town sux" even though he is under flak by no one besides me and possibly ico.
And the self vote is pretty obviously a martyr play to let ico live another day which i gave up on when i realized i can probably make better use of a follower pm.

I think there's some merit to this, actually. Especially considering his tone today re: not lynching Vex because of your Follower result. I don't think 'lynch me today as long as you lynch Dong tomorrow' and 'we shouldn't lynch Vex because he's now statistically less likely to be scum' come from the same town mindset.

Spoiler:

Take a step back for a second and tell me how many times out of 100 you expect Dong to flip scum if we lynch him today.

Because I'd say 1, maaaaybe 2.

plus dong selfvoted and left a cryptic message saying once they flip, well see why they claimed masons

this is a good reason for why the number is probably closer to 75 there

dong is just scum who knows that getting lynched D1 is almost certainly losing for scum so he's made up a bullshit claim in the hopes that icon would back it in self-preservation as he made it when icon was looking like he might be lynched. this prob does make icon town though, as I think scum just backs the lie that they're both masons once dong has committed them to that

Kind of a nitpick and i dont know menals style so idk about this but i think someone who is this deadset on me being scum would go for a higher number than 75 here. Every post he makes i get lower on his readslist yet he doesnt call me 100 scum.

I don't really agree with this point on its own, but in the context of Menalque being willing to get lynched himself to get Dong lynched D2, 75% isn't really good odds against the possibility of back-to-back town lynches.

Spoiler:

@Bella here is the rough bullet point version:

- dong instantly starts trying to discredit me the moment I put a vote on him
- dong consistently avoids actually engaging with content while making excuses about how it's filled with traps for him should he try to engage
- dong also claims that my content is void, and refuses to even point out the various obvious traps that are mentioned
- dong regularly misreps me throughout the thread by leaving out context
- dong lies about being a mason with icon
- dong self votes
- dong LIED ABOUT BEING A MASON WITH ICON
- dong makes some bullshit argument about how he should be let live until tomorrow because iMpOrtAnT rOle StUFf
- dong again, outright lies by saying that I didn't explain my chem progression
- DONG LIED ABOUT BEING A MASON

at the very best, his play is anti-town because he's straight up lied more than once in thread. at the far more probable worst, he's scum who is deliberately lying to both try and avoid being lynched and to set the mislynch on me because it's p much the only option he has here now

if you think all that comes from town then okay I'm just done with this game

but will keep trying because, again, dong is scum and if we lynch him this game is borderline won for town

See one point that ruffles my feathers is that menal puts questionable, gambit play and instantly tosses them into "anti-town" bin, even though my supposedly "anti-town" play just earned us 3 confirmed town today.

Nah, tbh I have to agree that it was anti-town to fakeclaim Masons. I could easily see town!Mena holding that opinion and even wanting to lynch you for it. It's a large part of why I have been townreading him in his exchange with you.

I think a few points in your case fall under this category and I'll just skip over them. In general I think Menalque's

approach

to scumreading you is really similar to how he'd do it as town.

Town would try to analyze why scum would make that kind of thinking and engage if it didnt make sense to them, and vote if they were certain it had a scummy agenda. Scum condition themselves to see it as scummy because of a possibly flawed line of thinking and dont try to rationalize the one posting it. You fall into the latter category.

I think both Mena and Vex have done this a bit - it's the main thing I've been complaining about irt Vex, that he isn't looking at things that actually make someone scum and I struggle to believe he genuinely believes what he's saying.
I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility for Mena to do this as town though, annoyingly.

Spoiler:

If you’re not gonna vote dong then go ahead and fucking vote me because I’m not backing off it at this point

Then after I flip green you can keep your shitty TR on him because he’s just a certain type of player with a “specific personality type” and go ahead and lose the game

Let’s totally ignore that I’ve got scum right D1 on like 4/5 of my most recent towngames but because I’m not the best at explaining people don’t fucking listen to me. And I tried to adjust for that this game based on feedback from other games but apparently trying to actually explain things doesn’t count for jackshit in this game. Even in the game where I didn’t push scum D1 I was on him early because that’s the game where I talked myself off korina onto mislynch bait

Do you want the others? Got scum skitt + epic creeper D1 in 1951/53 whatever it was

Got pine scum D1 in added to the group chat

Got icon scum D1 in purge

And in my first mini normal (can’t remember the number) I got luv scum on D1

I think I’m missing pfup as it’s my first large game, and obv I’ve missed my scum game but my point is my reads are actually pretty fucking good and constantly get ignored because of a mixture of not really being great at the persuasion part of the game and not having a strong enough reputation to just get sheeped on shit

Again, more AtE saying that you're always right so you should be trusted on me read or you may as well die. Town would bite the bullet here and start making associations, instead of trying to get the moral high ground every chance they get.

See that would be great if it were true, but this is one of the posts that still has me struggling to commit to a Mena scumread. This genuinely reads like town who's pissed that they are basically being ignored. But I will concede that there's obvious scum motivation in

making

the post (AtE was being townread earlier in the game, why not try to pick up some of that?)


All in all I can see some of your points, but I'm not persuaded by a fair bit of it. Regardless I'm starting to come around on the possibility of Mena-scum for my own reasons.

[Klick]

ok, i saw who said im scummy by play. kilck, i'm not scummy by play. sure lurking is part of my old scum-meta and you could theoretically read me on that, however, that's literally the hardest one to read me off of since i do it as both town and scum. mostly when im not into a game, but it happens as both alignments. you trying to tell me my play of lurking due to IRL is scummy is scummy itself.

VOTE: klick die scum

I have not once said you're scummy because you're lurking.

You don't actually think I'm scum.

[Donempire]

Klick, you wouldnt mind pocketing my vote, right? Too many a time we got a mislynch through because of split wagons and time constraints so i need some backup vote with me. I assure you i'll listen to what you have to say but i need cohesion in my wagons so it doesnt get counterwagoned and quicklynched.
Pedit: i'll respond to that

[Klick]

Now I’d like you to answer 930 because right now I think (klick, vex) and (klick, dats) are both more likely than (vex, dats)

Tbqh trying to look at this game from an outsider's perspective, I think the only conceivable person I could possibly see myself making sense as scum with is

you

, Menalque. My play over the last two days is ridiculous if I'm scum and you/Dong are both town.

Upon a double-ISO with Datisi and Vex, the two say hardly anything at all to each other in a way that makes me think they're not partners. Like, I think Datisi in particular would be trying a bit harder to interact with her scumbuddy even if he was a bit inactive.