White Flag - TM2020

[Hopkirk]

Hectic hallucinating here. Hi, hello, howdy homies. Hopkirk’s habitually handled hard hostility. Hijacking his hill here, hopefully his hospitality hinders horrifying hamster hostage hazing. Here’s heartfelt hopes he half hammers hazardous hillbillies. Hectic’s heckling Hop’s heartbreaking headache.
Hoping he haggles handguns here… hedonistic hillbillies he’ll hit. Hitherto
heavenly Hopkirk himself!

Hectic ‘Hectic’ Hectic

[Hopkirk]

I'd like to clarify that Team 'Team' Team

absolutely

understands how team mafia works

VOTE: Espeonage

I take Umbreonage with you being alive in this game.

Woah, let's take a step back and use words we all understand here. Had to google what you meant by 'take' there. I thing it really takes away from the game when we resort to obscure phrasing like that.

@everyone, why did everyone choose this game?

Didn't want a closed. Hectic wanted the doctor open which I was fine with. I like mountainous.

VOTE: Dann

Anyone not voting here is scum or town that needs to die.

I kinda felt like this was her subconsciously admitting to being afraid of being investigated and found out to be scum, so knowing that she couldnt have that happen here to her would be a benefit to her.

That's not my baggage; the last time I even specifically recall being the target of an investigative role was in 2009. I can dig up proof that I have a problem trying to hang PRs if that's of interest.

This is relevant?

Hopkirk 'Hoppers' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Dann

Anyone not voting here is scum or town that needs to die.

Formatting mixed up a bit before so here we go.

I agree. Wasn't a fan of the overly casual tone Dann had in his first few posts.

How does the answer to "Why White Flag?" give any useful information? The reasons would have been established prior, and there's no picking games after role assignments anyway.

Well it speaks to the type of person you are generally which is what I want to explore. It is helpful for me to know what type of people I am dealing with since I haven’t played with many of you.

Do you think it is a bad idea to try and introduce discussion into the game?

Not a fan of this. The first part feels like the 'make up a technically flawless answer that perfectly explains why I asked a question when I absolutely wasn't thinking about that logic when I asked it' that I used to catch myself doing as scum a while back. It feels semi-over engineered/too prepared for someone asking.

Second point is oddly hostile. Not really a question since it's rhetorical and nobody is ever really going to say 'yes I wanted to stop us introducing discussion into the game.'

Why did you ask that question?

I will reveal this once everyone has answered

It's perfectly fine to introduce a discussion point, but why not just explain that at the beginning?
What have you learnt from the responses?

Woah, ease up on the reins there buddy. I don't like this. Why are you chasing Dann up on this so fast? He was clearly going to address this, or if he didn't then it'd be much more useful to ask 'hey Dann why didn't you follow up on this'. What do you get from asking him before he's posted again, because it looks like posturing from you - asking townish questions - to me at the moment.

Hopkirk 'Hopper' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Hopkirk

What the fuck is this shit. Best case scenario is it's some kind of stupid little joke, and if it is you'd better not quit your fucking dayjob.

@everyone, why did everyone choose this game?

I didn't think you'd be in it.

Will you answer this too?

I didn't I wanted to be in the other open game, but I think I was too heavy handed my own personal blacklist and bob got pushed into it instead
I specifically didn't want this game because it is particularly difficult to win as town

Starting to wish I'd made a fucking blacklist. I can already see these fuckers lining up and planning their gamethrows.

I feel like my scum game is overrated

but that’s just me

Don't worry, we all agree that you're overrated.
Talked it out with the team a bit and none of us actually know who you are but that still makes you pretty damn overrated from what I've seen so far. Don't put this village idiot on l1 anytime soon. I know you want to stop embarrassing yourself but I'm not letting you selfhammer yourself out of the pain that quickly you little scumfuck. I'm going to make this drawn out and fucking painful.

Fuckers

Fuck. You.

How does the answer to "Why White Flag?" give any useful information? The reasons would have been established prior, and there's no picking games after role assignments anyway.

Well it speaks to the type of person you are generally which is what I want to explore. It is helpful for me to know what type of people I am dealing with since I haven’t played with many of you.

Do you think it is a bad idea to try and introduce discussion into the game?

Hopkirk's already talked about why this is so fucking terrible. First time that cowardly fucker Hopkirk ever did anything worth shit in a game of mafia.

Because no one is posting

Nobody wants to talk to you. How about you take the fucking message.

I’m trying not to explode the game because I already have a lot of posts and a sizable portion of the game still hasn’t even checked in

Nope, still missing it. I'd spell it out if I was confident enough you could read for me to think it'd be worth my fucking time.

Elements 'Elements' Elements

[Hopkirk]

woah, sorry about that . I think my pal Elements is just a bit excited. I'll talk to him, I'm sure we can get this all sorted out

Hoping we have a good fun game everyone

Thilbert 'Thrillbert' Thilbert

[Hopkirk]

Woah, ease up on the reins there buddy. I don't like this. Why are you chasing Dann up on this so fast? He was clearly going to address this, or if he didn't then it'd be much more useful to ask 'hey Dann why didn't you follow up on this'. What do you get from asking him before he's posted again, because it looks like posturing from you - asking townish questions - to me at the moment.

I'll clarify - I wasn't attacking Dann in that comment, I was asking Gobbledygook what he learnt from our responses to his question; and why he said he couldn't reveal the reasons for asking that question.

Do you think there is scum motivation for asking that question?

There's motivation to ask it as both town and scum. I'm only interested in what you've learned from the rest of our responses.
I can see scum motivation in posting a question designed to appear towny while not having any real justification for it, maintaining secrecy when asked why you did, and giving a tame explanation much later.
What's your experience playing scum? Can you describe your scum playing style? More specifically - if you roll scum, would you allow being coached by your partners?

Looking back I definitely misinterpreted what you were saying in at least two ways.

is elements doing a bit or something? idgi

I'm not sure. Not 100% sure he's supposed to be posting in this game when he's in the large, but kind of afraid to tell him not to.

Hopkirk 'Hoppers' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

I actually had to drop out of team mafia due to scheduling issues. Kind of disappointed that I'm going to have to leave my debut on the site for a while but luckily Thilbert 'Thrillbert' Thilbert was happy to take my place.

I'd just like to note that I am alive. I noticed that Hopkirk's post in the team mafia thread when he said I was subbing out kind of implied I died during a game of strip russian roulette, and I'm happy to say this isn't true. I only have a slight limp.

Jcras 'Flames' Jcras

[Hopkirk]

Hopkirk please do not ever address a post like that to me again.

Don't worry I won't.

Elements on the other hand...

Hopkirk 'Hop' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Gobbledegook

Team 'Team' Team

[Hopkirk]

Team "Team" Team has just been informed that

Allowing a teammate to post from your account is against site rules. Pretending to break this rule is also against site rules. Please stop.

The entire team would like to deeply apologize and offer our deepest condolences.

If you or anyone you care about has been unduly distressed by Team 'Team' Team's degenerate, abhorrent, and downright repugnant activities (the most likely case being Hopkirk's impression of Elements doing a Kuriboh impression) please contact Firm 'Firm' Firm, an absolutely unaffiliated group. You may be entitled to compensation.

We will return to your regularly scheduled Hopkirk in a few phases when he's had time to think of a new gimmick. Personally I (Hopkirk) think 'actually playing mafia instead of making awful puns' is a tempting one but it's been difficult to get the team to agree. Either way, he does need to eat, probably now.

[Hopkirk]

To clarify, Hopkirk has been pretending to break this rule that we were not aware of. Also, we don't think the mods are reading your team PTs since we were planning this for months (years if you count before we got the QTs, lifetimes if you believe in reincarnation), so feel free to discuss your meta tells in them - they probably won't be used against you later.

Hopkirk 'Hops' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

There's motivation to ask it as both town and scum. I'm only interested in what you've learned from the rest of our responses.
I can see scum motivation in posting a question designed to appear towny while not having any real justification for it, maintaining secrecy when asked why you did, and giving a tame explanation much later.
What's your experience playing scum? Can you describe your scum playing style? More specifically - if you roll scum, would you allow being coached by your partners?

That is a fair assertion. I had two main reasons for asking the question. 1) I wanted to understand the types of players in this game. I wanted to see if it was going to be a lot of people with big personalities or people who thought highly of themselves a la RC/Mastina/Kuribo, etc. It appears that this playerlist is not like that at all, judging from the responses. Save for probably Dongempire. 2) I wanted it to get us out of RVS by giving us SOMETHING to talk about.

I have only played scum twice. Both in New York.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80850
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80463

I would say that as scum I generally do not care if I get lynched because I hate playing it so I do things that are probably suicidal from an outsider's perspective.
Yes, I would allow my teammates to coach me, but if I was scum I would have told them the same thing and probably to save their breath.

I liked both people in this exchange and somewhat Dann for thinking along the same lines. Does feel different effortwise to Gobble in the one he linked that I was in. Do you ATE much Gobble?

Hopkirk's thing is a meme. I would appreciate it if he did not do the "cluck you" meme anymore because it wasn't funny and this isn't a Bill Burr or George Carlin standup night

As if I'd repeat the same joke more than once. Feedback will of course improve the quality of future programming.

Hopkirk 'Hops' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Hopkirk

I just don't get why you had to vote him to talk to him? Dann seems pretty capable of talking without needing to be pressured with a vote. It looked like you were trying to get away from the situation

I'm not voting Dann?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Kittmo

[Hopkirk]

You want me to explain or you want to sheep?

[Hopkirk]

You want me to explain or you want to sheep?

I want you to explain, I'm town reading her.

Fine, but I'm not blind sheeping either. I hope you're happy.

Not a fan of how passive 100 reads tone wise. She made a lot of comments but what she left out gives me the impression she was avoiding getting into the noisiest/messiest/most visible parts of the game. Fence sitting on Gobble. Not getting involved/commenting about me (the hydra thing) and the gobble/Ceph conflict that were both going on at the time.

Hop 'Hoppers' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Hopkirk

I just don't get why you had to vote him to talk to him? Dann seems pretty capable of talking without needing to be pressured with a vote. It looked like you were trying to get away from the situation

I'm not voting Dann?

You've posted twice since I asked this Turkey.

[Hopkirk]

That was not clear since you said one name then used 'you' several times then didn't elaborate - which gave the impression your initial use was correct.

Hop 'Hops' Hoppers

[Hopkirk]

How do you feel about Kitty?

Hop 'Hopington' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

I don't think your takes on "the first part" are great. Like, you seem to be arguing it's both "too prepared" but also something he didn't think through enough when he asked it which is why he had to overprepare later? Along Occam's razor lines, even if he is scum I don't really think that's probably the actual mindset.

Are you interested in unpacking to what extent you see the apparently hostile tone as alignment indicative?

Overprepared is probably less the term I'd use than 'overengineered'. Something that sounds like it was backed by a solid amount of logic due to thinking you need to have a good justification so you invent the perfect one afterwards.

I've caught myself doing the same thing a fair bit (irl mafia) a couple of times when I accused someone then created a strong argument to back it up that closer inspection would have shown that wasn't something I was thinking when I put it together in the first place.

Hostile tone is personality indicative, but worth following up.

Hop 'Hops' Hops

[Hopkirk]

Hopkirk update here. I was visiting hectic today (part of team 'team' team) and we managed not to discuss team mafia at all except for occasionally confirming that we weren't allowed to talk about it irl and congratulating each other for not discussing it.

I'll be busy tommorow except for potentially an hour or so in the morning. I'll try and devote 1-3 hours on it on Monday. I'm not sure what clients I'm on until then, so the rest of the week ranges from completely free to very dodgy timewise except for Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Sundays for roughly the next 3 months where I generally don't have the ability to comment more than single liners, or arguably to eat. I am not currently caught up.

Hop 'hip' hop

[Hopkirk]

Starting from p1 again because I'm catch up on 1/4 of the game anyway.

@Gobble: was your opening commenting on my conspiracy post something you were already planning to post before getting your alignment this game?

Will you answer this too?

I didn't I wanted to be in the other open game, but I think I was too heavy handed my own personal blacklist and bob got pushed into it instead
I specifically didn't want this game because it is

particularly difficult to win as town

I dont agree with this. I think that white flag forces us to actually play the game instead of waiting for people with night actions to point us in the right direction. We have to play differently here and part of that is going to be how much we fight with each other. And thats not to mean we cant disagree, but we should know right now that there is almost no chance that we arent going to mislynch at some point. What we need to look at is the VCA and the wagons of the day prior to inform the wagons and lynches of the days to come. Even a mislynch is going to net us info, and the more info we have the better we see the full puzzle of whos working with the town and whos working against it.

@Formerfish: could you explain the thought process you had while posting this? It reads like the textbook 'LAMIST' and the connection between your monologue and Gobble's post feels loose at best - as though you wanted to post this and you're using Gobble's post as an excuse to post it. Don't really see why you'd want to as scum or as town though, so interested in your mindset.

Why was this something you felt the need to wait to reveal?

I didn’t actually But it is helpful to see what people pick and choose to respond to. Like do people ask legitimate questions are do they ask empty questions like Cephrir’s wood question

I like the tonal outrage from Gobble here.

is elements doing a bit or something? idgi

This feels kind of odd contextually. Cephrir had just done a fairly long rundown on Gobbles (iso basically) to go through the 'wooden' read that he was expressing. Feels like he should have noticed I'd posted as 4 different people there quite visibly. I don't get why he'd go into depth on Gobbles when it also feels like he either didn't iso me, or is acting confused to avoid stuff. This is a question btw Ceph, I'll let you decide which bit

is

the question.

There's motivation to ask it as both town and scum. I'm only interested in what you've learned from the rest of our responses.
I can see scum motivation in posting a question designed to appear towny while not having any real justification for it, maintaining secrecy when asked why you did, and giving a tame explanation much later.
What's your experience playing scum? Can you describe your scum playing style? More specifically - if you roll scum, would you allow being coached by your partners?

That is a fair assertion. I had two main reasons for asking the question. 1) I wanted to understand the types of players in this game. I wanted to see if it was going to be a lot of people with big personalities or people who thought highly of themselves a la RC/Mastina/Kuribo, etc. It appears that this playerlist is not like that at all, judging from the responses. Save for probably Dongempire. 2) I wanted it to get us out of RVS by giving us SOMETHING to talk about.

I have only played scum twice. Both in New York.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80850
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80463

I would say that as scum I generally do not care if I get lynched because I hate playing it so I do things that are probably suicidal from an outsider's perspective.
Yes, I would allow my teammates to coach me, but if I was scum I would have told them the same thing and probably to save their breath.

Personally I buy the ATE and irritated tone here. Asked Hectic about the town meta since he's played with town Gobble a couple of times, waiting for him to get back to me on that. Definitely feels different effort wise to his traitor game.

@Gobble: how much are you talking about this game with your team right now?

I am leaning towards that you're both town. I see what Cephrir is saying about gobble having wooden posting. It's not an insult, in fact I usually have that quality too when I'm try harding in RVS early as town.

But regardless of how effective gobble's question is to generating AI discussion, I think he seems pretty earnest about it?

My only problem is the amount of defensiveness you've shown gobble, and why you've jumped so quickly to Cephrir making a bad faith read on your slot. I get it if you don't think your posting has been bad at all (which is a purely subjective thing), but do you at least see why Auro/me would interpret your question as empty? Also, do you have any reads beyond Cephrir at this point?

I liked this the first time I read it since I was getting a TvT impression after Gobbles' post above at this point.
On a second look, FF had mentioned earlier about seeing Dann as 'trying too hard to make friends' with North at the start. Want to look at this as I catch up/reread as calling it a TvT is obviously reasonable for town legit thinking that, but also in character for scum who wants friends.

Hop 'Hiphop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

Why did you see it as an empty question?

It isn't a question that someone can answer because it is so subjective. It looks like shade

Anyway: Formerfish's response in #28 isn't indicative of a big personality to you?

I didn't even see that post, but yeah that is a big personality.

So how did you feel about the first point after he followed up with an iso breakdown explaining what he meant? I thought you mentioned it seemed empty after that?

I can't tell if Cephrir was being opportunistic by voting me first while you and Auro were pretty openly probing me with skeptical sounding questions or if you guys are town for not voting me despite the tone of your posts implying that you want to

Why would not voting you despite our apparent intention to do so make us towny? On the contrary, I'd find that scummy myself.
You state you're on-the-fence about Cephrir here, although you had just voted him for other reasons. I'm kindaaa concerned about the phrasing of this.


Sorry about the grill, I'll stop here.

Edit: I looked at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80850&user_select[]=33140 and viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80463&user_select[]=33140 after typing that up, seems like the turkey is a lot more opinionated in those scumgames. Warrants further checking but I think his behaviour here strays a lot from them, so I'll award him a townread as well now.

Did you check his towngames too, I'm assuming not and it doesn't make a massive different to the other part of my question? The timing here feels odd for you to have looked through in detail, especially if you were looking at context. What did you more specifically look at/find different?

and i think he's not afraid to make waves and that's good

I'm trying not to let this specifically influence my read because I think this is just who FF is as a person

but I think I'm finally vibing with a town read

I don't have any scum reads yet but I guess I can live with that

I had this quoted ready to comment on as well until I read Dann already did. I don't think Ceph followed up, and it felt immediately obvious to me that FF was going to be pretty abrasive personality/playwise from tone and it feels really odd to assume that being like that here was atypical play from him.
@Ceph

VOTE: Hopkirk

I just don't get why you had to vote him to talk to him? Dann seems pretty capable of talking without needing to be pressured with a vote. It looked like you were trying to get away from the situation

yes, i did not feel like voting you anymore. is that scummy?

The desire to not want to be voting me is not scummy, the need to move it to another person to talk with them is weird. You just did it with Auro too.

Hopkirk, my vote on you and the comments below it are not related. Sorry if that was not clear

I'm king of a sucker for townreading stuff like this that gives me the impression the person isn't reading their own posts. I don't think I've ever reread something I've written before pressing submit. Feel like scum cares more about avoiding dumb mistakes/confusion for the sake of posturing/looking better.

Hop 'Hoppington' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

I guess I'm interested in why you didn't comment on anything from page 2 that wasn't a direct question toward you. Like, the amount of posts is clearly not being a barrier to you being able to analyze what was there. What was your mindset?

I glazed over spam posting from Formerfish

Spam posting on page 2 oh no! I'm so sorry turkey.

Oh shit. Wait. I have 16 posts, 17 after this one. I would say more than half of my posts are legit posts and very little is spam.

You have 42 posts and half of them are one line posts. Don't shade me with that weak ass shit when you are the blackest kettle around.

Did this help you develop your read on Turkey? If so, what is it.

numbers used instead of quotes as long posts

@Dunn 154 – why did you like early Dann posting? Are you disagreeing that it sounded casual or disagreeing about how you read it? I’ll follow up on this myself too afterwards.
161 – Gobble still talking about the wooden thing as ‘just shade’. I tend to agree that you could have made a better response to my conspiracy joke post than you did and on the second read, as I just mentioned above, I got a kind of ‘written pregame’ mechanical feel from it. Not convinced that scum commits this hard to the argument that brings him into focus, and involves not really comprehending why the wooden comment was made in the first place. Committing to it when there’s 2-3 people arguing with him about it feels like his responses are legit rather than manufactured/feels like he’s legitimately a bit frustrated there.
Still want to hear Gobble’s response to the whole wooden thing/the questions I posed in the couple of posts above.

I must say I'm loving this game - less spam, a lot of walls, a slower pace

Yes, Gobble did replace into both of those scumgames perhaps, but the tone is still very different. Even with some amount of early game content Gobble's tone has remained the same; so I'm not interested in any attacks there. Minus points to Dunn for continuing to push there.

I'm liking Dann more now, specifically that he had TW giving him insights and the explanation didn't seem post-hoc-fabricated.

FormerFish isn't as impressive as his former games at all. He has a lot of posts, but not a lot of content, save a weakish push on KittyMo.

VOTE: auro

?

VOTE: FormerFish

I don't really get the mindset underlying this vote 24 hours into the event. Could you explain your mindset. Did you have any other scumleans here at all?

The biggest variable in tone is alignment, especially for someone who hasn't played many scumgames. I don't think the other variables matter much.

I haven't had a look at his towngame for comparison, I'll do that.

I don't get how you're concluding on his meta when you've only looked at the scum and forming a conclusion strong enough to be actively debating it with Dunn like that. It feels like a disengage at the end/get out of jail free 'whatever I say here is fine/I'm leaving myself open to changing it since I've barely read his meta.'

Hopkirk 'Hipkork' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

I never alleged it's a sinister scum tactic. I just awarded a few minus points for attacking a townread of mine, why is that unreasonable?

Okay so, I like Dunnstral and Cephrir for town, probably also Hopkirk but I want to talk with them. I don't particularly like both FormerFish and Auro, and have doubts on Turkey being scum as the interaction with Cephrir seemed pretty TvT for an early game exchange. I want to hear more thoughts from Joan as sorting them can be tedious if they're not all too invested.

Will write up my explanations in a bit. I'm way too tired at the moment.

I weakly like the opening barrage from wgeurts. Very weak since there's nothing particularly hard to fake as scum there, but the tone read as at least a bit real/directly getting to the point rather than fluffing anything when tired.

Why are you mulling over people pocketing you?

Think you may have misread my post or the context?

Can you elaborate on why you don't like Auro? Also, specifically what about Cephrir vs. Gobble feels TvT to you? Mostly interested in those two answers when you're feeling less tired. I've reached sort of the same conclusion regarding Cephrir and Gobble but I'm not very confident both those reads are right yet.

At this point (2 pages to go) I've been starting to think 'Auto +Dann' as my top two scumreads. Kind of interesting in what Dann commented on here.

Hop 'Hops' Hop

[Hopkirk]

I never alleged it's a sinister scum tactic. I just awarded a few minus points for attacking a townread of mine, why is that unreasonable?

Quoted but didn't actually respond to this did I.
Following on from what I said two posts above, don't get this given the strength of the expressed Gobble read and reads like an attempt to try and pocket Gobble given Auro is also reading Gobble as emotional/prone to more erratic behavior.

I think Hopkirk is actually my strongest town read and that's been backed up by my team.

Why's that? I don't remembering playing with any of your team (anytime recently if at all) so I'm assuming not meta?

@Auro/Dann/Dong: did any of you look through Ceph meta during this discussion? I think at least 1-2 of you heavily leaned on meta for Gobble (can't remember which 100% atm and I'll check after this) and it feels odd those people are debating 'short posting style' as alignment indicative without looking at meta to see whether that's a posting style thing in every game.
No comment myself as have not looked at Ceph meta. I think I did comment on a couple of those points that Auro commented on with siilar thoughts at the time - 82 and 120 as quoted in meh and agree on that bit.

Hop 'Hoppers' Hop

[Hopkirk]

This is why people are saying you're ignoring engagement, by the way

Is this indicative at all of your read on Ceph? What's your view on the currently argument?

and we managed not to discuss team mafia at all except for occasionally confirming that we weren't allowed to talk about it

So same thing you've been doing in thread then?

Don't think this shade is reasonable and slightly irritates me since the tone doesn't make me feel like you're just making a joke. Game started when I was asleep. I had work and could only post for a few hours the following evening. The next day I was explicitly unable to post due to things planned for a while. My plans today fell through so I'm making up for that, but I don't appreciate the implication there that you don't expect me to make a contribution when I caught up. I'm pretty sure I've posted quite a lot in the past when we've played together. During the one day I was here I made a lot of high quality memes, formed a few reads, and there weren't many people online to actually engage with due to timezones. Is your problem that I was busy one Saturday during the day?

Are

you saying you didn't think I'd come back and post much? Do you have a problem with me not being constantly available enough that it's worth making snide comments about? I don't find that particulary conductive to our future working relationship in this game and I'm almost finding the shade actually scummy since I kind of feel like it's actually you attempting to preemptively discredit me since we've played before, I've posted there, and the thread has barely been up for any time.

I'll have to introduce you to a certain 'reactive' friend of mine. I think you'd get along like 'hydrogen and oxygen'.

Hopkirk 'Hopping mad' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

You don't deserve that actually, 149 was a good post

oh, uh forget about half of that i guess. Still feels like shading though

I don't see a reason to think he's anything other than null right now. Unless his scum game is really bad or something, I don't get why people are townreading him.

This is talking about Hopkirk by the way, not Ceph

I used to be fairly good at scum (winrate was better than my town one) but haven't rolled it (onsite or off so about 6-7 games) in the last year and I've gone from liking scum to absolutely hating it in that time - based on irl games of which I've probably played ~2-300 hours of in that year period + 50-100 hours of forum.

Scum can be fun for a while/I liked it when I was newer, but I've got to the point where I've recognized my town game needs improvement and don't think playing scum particularly helps me with that (again, basing this on irl). I legitimately have no idea how I'd play scum nowadays, unless you want some self meta based on a lot of secret Hitler games.

[Hopkirk]

The bottom of my post got cut off when I pasted that from word. Pretend this is the same post and I keep my perfect signing record.

VOTE: Auto

Hop 'Hopped' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

Feels like he should have noticed I'd posted as 4 different people there quite visibly. I don't get why he'd go into depth on Gobbles when it also feels like he either didn't iso me, or is acting confused to avoid stuff. This is a question btw Ceph, I'll let you decide which bit is the question.

What makes you think I didnt notice that?

I thought elements had written that post for you.

I thought it was obvious that was just me memeing when I signed Hectic as the all h post, Elements as angry, and Thilbert as a confused newbie then said we

absouletely

understood the rules. We were all aware we couldn't post from other accounts, but there wasn't anything saying you couldn't pretend to be them.

Although thinking about it it's pretty abusable if everyone did that.

On topic - how come you didn't comment on it if you thought we were all posting from one account?

Hop 'Hoppers' Hop

[Hopkirk]

That's functionally the same thing but reasonable. When did you stop thinking that?

Hop 'Hopping' Hops

[Hopkirk]

I’m fairly discouraged at this point following the recent modkill and consequent tiebreaker implications. Been off work today and this is the fourth time I’ve opened up the site intending to get into the game then getting demotivated and just closing it.

I don’t think any of my team particularly joined with the expectation of winning, mostly to try and enjoy the games. They’ve been in general a lot less fun than I expected (tonewise trying to read has been a slog) and I’m struggling to find the motivation to help my team. I’m glad I got the game I did since people here actually seem enjoyable to play with. I’m basically treating this as a normal game rather than team mafia, albeit one where Hectic can occasionally weigh in, and where the mods read everything in our PTs so I can force the mods to read my erotica if I put game related content interspace throughout it.

The modkill itself results in a tiebreaker in the large theme which is pretty central to why I’m discouraged- we can’t mechanically win unless conditions so unlikely they’re virtually impossible have already been met. It’d be a lot easier if any of us had managed to roll mafia (which would be pretty good normally for team mafia bsed on last time) since then we could still win if we all won our games. Annoyingly, the tiebreaker means that even if all three of us were able to immediate call out and lynch the entire scumteams in our respective games it’s not possible for us to win the event unless very specific and unlikely events (all of which are completely out of our control, and most of which have already been determined):

1.) The game we are not in MUST be won by scum as the number of other teams (17) less expected scum numbers across all games is not sufficient to mean that we are the only team who won all of our games (unless there’s more scum than you’d anticipate based on regular setup design and/or there’s exactly one scum per each team).
2.) Every member of said winning scumteam MUST also have another member of their team who rolled scum and lost (though the loss is assumed knowledge as if we win any scum in game’s we’re in would lose).
3.) The game elements was modkilled in MUST also be won by town.

We need specific results in 2 games we have no way to influence, and we need the distribution of scum/town in each team to be very specific and have specific overlap. Nothing we could have done to stop the modkill either, but that’s gone now. Better hope nobody in your team manages to get modkilled. We’re hoping for pretty much all of the large to get modkilled obviously, since enough modkills means we can technically not lose the tiebreak, and running the numbers that’s actually a lot more likely than any other way we’ve got of inning at this point.

Spent enough time talking about this with my team that I’m reasonably confident I didn’t miss anything, but if anyone notices a way we can possibly still have any chance of winning even with the tiebreaker in place then please let me know.
Kind of kills a lot of the enthusiasm I had for the team element of team mafia.

Still, going to try and catch up on this absolutely normal and not at all special or once a year event. Expecting to be interrupted by an important call from work at some point though.

Hopkirk 'Hop' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

probably 112

That's reasonable/explains why you didn't comment on it when going through Gobble. Any reason you didn't comment on it afterwards or is it just something you didn't feel it was worth commenting on? Out of interest more than anything, how did you feel about our team when you thought that's how each of us were going to be posting?

On a second look, FF had mentioned earlier about seeing Dann as 'trying too hard to make friends' with North at the start. Want to look at this as I catch up/reread as calling it a TvT is obviously reasonable for town legit thinking that, but also in character for scum who wants friends.

Is there more to this for your Dann scumread?

I don't really get the mindset underlying this vote 24 hours into the event. Could you explain your mindset. Did you have any other scumleans here at all?

I explained it in the very post you quoted - FormerFish's content was unimpressive, unlike in my previous games with him. Why was this hard to understand?
Mild on Dunn at that point, no real reads on anyone else at that point AFAIR.

I don't get how you're concluding on his meta when you've only looked at the scum and forming a conclusion strong enough to be actively debating it with Dunn like that. It feels like a disengage at the end/get out of jail free 'whatever I say here is fine/I'm leaving myself open to changing it since I've barely read his meta.'

The difference I noticed on a light skim was enough to make a decently strong conclusion. Debating it also helped read Dunn to an extent.
Everything is open to change :shrug:

Dann scumread isn't the strongest since it could just be a personality tell from my 0 knowledge of how he normally posts.
His posting sounded casual early on and I could see scum-Dann building a decent pocket early game. That's pretty most of what there was to it.

Because he'd been on once/posted a string. If you had a light scumread maybe that's ok, but it sounded like a meta case when I don't see anything like enough to build a case on. I don't get why you wouldn't wait for him to post a bit more then see if he still aligns with your meta scumtell. Bringing it up early instead of sitting on it and seeing if it actually applies takes away from the read you get from it, gives you less info (unless you're really sure about this, but i didn't get a 100% vibe), and I could see it as scum posturing/using it so they have 'reads' early game/putting out content so they look like they're doing stuff instead of waiting a bit and getting something more valuable out of it.

How strong was your read at different points on FF as I might be misinterpreting the strength and drawing conclusions from that.

Did you follow up on the last bit yet? Haven't read up to date yet so this might be an irrelevant question. Debating with Dunn to read Dunn makes sense as a motivation and I'll look back at whether I see this following the debate before I look at the next recent page.

@Auro/Dann/Dong: did any of you look through Ceph meta during this discussion? I think at least 1-2 of you heavily leaned on meta for Gobble (can't remember which 100% atm and I'll check after this) and it feels odd those people are debating 'short posting style' as alignment indicative without looking at meta to see whether that's a posting style thing in every game.

I recall saying I don't care much if something's scummy because of posting style?
If it's "style" to refrain from meaningful engagement, I'm still gonna lynch.


Also, can you help me see town!FF?

Can't sell you on formerfish town since my entire argument about your scumcase on him feeling off was that he's a pretty large null for me.

I don't really think this responds to my point. Do you see why I'd have a problem with you making meta arguments on 2 people (though maybe just one since you said FF was past game based, but I'm counting it as meta argument in treating you as a player who likes meta) then being suspicious of someone for something that meta would help you to sort while not looking at the meta on that person?

Hey I'm alive. Straight up unhappy to be in this game. Will give some effort tonight.

Nevermind, I thought you meant the end of my post reacting to 122 - I totally said that, that's not a read that's lasted this long though. I don't really remember, It was just the feeling I was getting at the time - looking back on it I wouldn't call it town again, which probably isn't what you wanted to hear

When you say you wouldn't call it town do you mean you'd call it scummy, neutral, or not sure? What are you thoughts on whether Dann looks like he's buddyfinding?

Hops 'Hoppery' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

On a second look, FF had mentioned earlier about seeing Dann as 'trying too hard to make friends' with North at the start. Want to look at this as I catch up/reread as calling it a TvT is obviously reasonable for town legit thinking that, but also in character for scum who wants friends.

Is there more to this for your Dann scumread?

I don't really get the mindset underlying this vote 24 hours into the event. Could you explain your mindset. Did you have any other scumleans here at all?

I explained it in the very post you quoted - FormerFish's content was unimpressive, unlike in my previous games with him. Why was this hard to understand?
Mild on Dunn at that point, no real reads on anyone else at that point AFAIR.

I don't get how you're concluding on his meta when you've only looked at the scum and forming a conclusion strong enough to be actively debating it with Dunn like that. It feels like a disengage at the end/get out of jail free 'whatever I say here is fine/I'm leaving myself open to changing it since I've barely read his meta.'

The difference I noticed on a light skim was enough to make a decently strong conclusion. Debating it also helped read Dunn to an extent.
Everything is open to change :shrug:

Looked back like I said above. Don't really see any indication it helped you sort Dunn at that point?

Hopkirk 'H' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

Why's that? I don't remembering playing with any of your team (anytime recently if at all) so I'm assuming not meta?

eddie cane said you were town

I trust his reads a lot

Also, even though I disagreed with it, I thought your explanation for the scum read on kittymo was especially towny. I thought it showed a level of looking deeper when it's a lot easier to just give her a free town read for having pleasant posts.

Assuming you still TR her, can you go into your Kitty townread a bit more?

So just skimming this page alone. idgaf if it's prevalent in other games, but here, I don't want to see any of this attacking with x reason because y teammate said so. It removes accountability, the teammate is able to read from a neutral perspective, and therefore muddies the entirety of the game.

Bounce ideas of them sure, but play your game, don't be a conduit for someone to just play four games.

Vote: Auro

Agreed. My team hasn't really read this game yet. Elements was kind enough to get himself modkilled so he didn't have to.

@everyone, why did everyone choose this game?

Didn't was meant to be in Large Theme. Someone on my blacklist was in there so I didn't get put there and our allocations were shuffled and now I'm in one of my least favourite setups commonly played.

I slightly townread the looking back to page 1 to post negativity here.

Is there a reason that makes it specifically town indicative for their slot, though? Like why is the scenario that Mr. Duck had the reasoning to begin with less plausible if the slot is scum?

Yes. I think the scenario where Duck makes up a small reason to suspect me and has Damn post it is ess plausible than Duck actually telling him to keep an eye on me, given I find the reasoning provided later genuine. Dann could've just said it and made up a reason post-hoc, but it would've looked fake.

You didn't ask me if I did form thoughts on dunn from that conversation which I did, and it's hardly an "extended" conversation. You'll notice I backed off from pushing Dunn right away.

I'm surprised at how serious people take "minus points" to be. If someone's at 100, and they push me or a townread of mine, that's reason to knock them down to 95. Of course people are wrong in Mafia; it's just ever so likelier that scum might be pushing someone I think is town to my eyes given I don't like the attack. I don't see why "minus points" translates to "especially disingenuous", why are you guys stressing on it this much?

Haven't looked at a town game yet, but I'm not really interested much either at this point. The expected result of my looking there is to end up at a nullread on gobble, and not a scumread. Given I have stronger scumreads, I'm interested in pushing there.

Espeonage, what in the previous page pinged you? Can you go into details please?

I got the impression you backed off as you didn't want to continue the conversation and didn't get an impression you had a read on Dunn from it. Saying 'you didn't ask if I formed a read' is a massive cop out/doesn't really sound sincere- sounds more like 'you never told me not to break your flowerpots'.

The 100, 95 thing is just plain wrong. If 'pushing' you/your townreads is scummy then you're saying you think it's scummy to push people you don't have a read on which definitely runs contrary to everything I've heard before.

Why are you settling at a nullread when the towngames might get you a townread on him or a scumread? I don't like that you're abandoning the read as null when you literally have a source of information that you said you were planning to look at that could swing it one way or the other.

you guys this game is so boring.

You should come to our discord sometime (not really offering this), we've got so much fun going on. A 'mods keep out channel' where we do nothing but compliment the mods/give actually sincere fashion advice, shipping erotica about players (proud Kitty X Esperonage shipper for life here),

actual discussion of the games

, accidental dice rolls from unrelated games we're playing in a different discord. It's just got everything.

Currently our team has had
-One modkill
-One final warning for a post being signed by 'a mysterious stranger' after being told to stop signing posts as other people
-Two replacements, though one was pregame
-No chance of actually winning

I for one am disappointed that my plan to sign posts as people who died in this game isn't allowed.

Hop 'Hoppery' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

Like yeah true, but it's a horrible setup.

Lets take mountainous and make it easier for scum by adding an exploitable mechanic.

I semi regret not reading the doctor setup since it looks a lot more fun mechanically than I thought on a first glance. Other people wanted it though and weren't massive fans of this one so don't really regret it.

You've never seen town ask other people questions about other peoples scumread on themself?

How's scum answer this vs town?

NSG, why are you so disengaged with the game? Is it out-of-game reasons?

i've had a lot less time than i expected, sorry.

if you're worried that i'm scum you won't be worried once i get more time to play.

If I look through your other games are they going to mention you having any reads in any of those?

I low key scum read NSG atm, not this post but just thought I'd mention it.

Do you see the difference. One is you working with someone to get in to their head to understand what they are thinking and most importantly why. The second is getting the blueprint on how to appear more town.

I disagree that town wouldn't ask why someone's teammates find them scummy. Has this been a historically useful tell/aligned with your expectations/is there a reason you think scum would do it more?

Hopkirk 'Hop-Hop-Hooray' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

Not trying to impede the gobble wagon by arguing semantics or complaining about the game = towny

How confident are you on Gobble here?

Spent enough time talking about this with my team that I’m reasonably confident I didn’t miss anything, but if anyone notices a way we can possibly still have any chance of winning even with the tiebreaker in place then please let me know.
Kind of kills a lot of the enthusiasm I had for the team element of team mafia.

Hey, to be completely frank, I don't really care for winning Team Mafia as a whole.
There are complaints about this game but I'm enjoying it nonetheless

About FF: He was Nev from some Booneytunz Extravaganza game I remember, and was a very aggressive (in a way that advances the game) voice there, his 20 posts here feel nothing like that. I forget why I asked you to sell me on town!FF, looking back at your posts I don't see a townread from you.

I didn't *state* a read on Dunn till very recently, where I said I

want

to townread him? I'm liking him more and more as the game goes. *shrug*

Haven't played with him so no idea if him not being active is scum indicative like I've heard it is for other people. Someone mentioned NSG has a rep for that so do you have any thoughts on her lack of activity/how this differs to your read on FF?

Dunn I'm getting an urge in my head to townread when I read his posts then another one saying 'why exactly' that I can't really answer beyond 'I guess his posts feel long and he must be saying stuff' when idk if there is.

H 'Hops' H

[Hopkirk]

I got the impression you backed off as you didn't want to continue the conversation and didn't get an impression you had a read on Dunn from it. Saying 'you didn't ask if I formed a read' is a massive cop out/doesn't really sound sincere- sounds more like 'you never told me not to break your flowerpots'.

The 100, 95 thing is just plain wrong. If 'pushing' you/your townreads is scummy then you're saying you think it's scummy to push people you don't have a read on which definitely runs contrary to everything I've heard before.

Why are you settling at a nullread when the towngames might get you a townread on him or a scumread? I don't like that you're abandoning the read as null when you literally have a source of information that you said you were planning to look at that could swing it one way or the other.

1. No, it was addressing the assumption that I carried a useless conversation.
2. Um, how does (push a townread is scummy) extend to (push a nullread is scummy)?! Where does this giant leap in logic come from?
3. My premise was that his play in those scumgames was aggressive, and he isn't here. The intended 'find' for me would be to see that he was similarly aggressive in said towngames; a finding which by itself would put him at worst null. I doubt the information I gain will be significant in other ways, I'm not willing to put in the effort to study it while I have stronger in-game scumreads.

1- nothing further to address
2- Because your townreads are other peoples nullreads. I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying. Unless you think that every townie should have reads perfectly alligned with yours (especially early on) then their pushing

your

townreads is more likely (given num town vs num scum) to be a town pushing a nullread. The majority of pushes are going to be town/town especially early on when people are trying to do initial sorts and reads are light.
3- Reading Gobble meta would also help sort Dunn right? I'm assuming you're just
I understand 'not wanting to put the effort in'. I was going to look at Gobble's past games when I noticed Hectic in a few of them and thought 'phew, wasn't looking forward to diving into meta' since I'm getting to a fairly busy time workwise again (gosh darn December year ends).

Note to self - play a game sometime where your gimmick is conducting the game like an audit. Or don't. Definitely don't.

@Dann - i didnt bother engaging with ceph because being active is his duty as town. When people keep asking him questions and he responds with one liners and shit like "i dont have to respond" like his post before i voted him i see it as a waste of time on a person who clearly wants the discussion to stagnate, in fact the more we focus on him im certain the more this game will die down. Read his iso, its half one liners and the other half is "game sux" or "i dont have nor need any" which kills activity.

Im pretty certain on my townreads on Auro, Gobble and Hopkirk right now. I dont want to lynch in these three for today.

Also hopkirk, i heard the elements modkill and realize how that would kill your motivation to play on. However it is completely irrelevant to this game and how it proceeds, so it shouldnt detract from the way you play this, and if you're just playing to fun like you said it shouldnt effect this game at all much love

Can you explain the Auro townread?

I am enjoying playing this game now that I've gotten back into it a bit more. I'm liking the pacing/posting styles in general in the game. Just semi-disappointing that I don't really have a 'team' in play during team mafia anymore but it doesn't really affect my motivation to play in this now that I got back to actually posting on the site.

I don't have any ill will against Elements or anything. I know Elements + the rest of my team in real life (that's why we had two replacements for one of the slots) and don't think there's any chance he was intentionally doing it/understood what it meant and why it was banned. I knew one guy irl who it took a while for him to realize that when I asked him 'are you mafia' saying 'no' when he was town and refusing to answer when he was mafia was such a problem/was making me beat my head against the wall.

Hop 'Hoppery' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

Haven't played with him so no idea if him not being active is scum indicative like I've heard it is for other people. Someone mentioned NSG has a rep for that so do you have any thoughts on her lack of activity/how this differs to your read on FF?

NSG's being clear in her lack of effort so far, and has mentioned there are other reasons.
FF is a slot I wouldn't mind lynching D1, but NSG I wouldn't - even if there were reasons to believe she's scum, I'd put her off for a later day.

What would you propose I say instead when asked to explain a teammate's read when they didn't offer any reasons? I was heading off an expected attack about this lack of reasons when my team is primarily, though not entirely, communicating in gut read form.

Ask your teammates for the reasons? Say it was a gut read, point to specific posts that made them feel so perhaps?
Why be deliberately obtuse?
"Auro is scum so answering is a waste of my time, therefore I shall simply refuse to answer" is a poor approach.

I haven't played with North in a while but I think I heard somewhere she's strong town. Is that why you'd avoiding lynching there, or is it because you think she's easier to sort later, or something else?
Think you said FF was strong town (though may be twisting your phrasing here when you just meant like 'active') so is there a difference there?

Didn't NSG's lack of effort come after the FF exchange? Her early posts didn't really specify anything of that sort.

Hop 'Hopson' Hops

[Hopkirk]

Hopkirk explicitly prod dodging here. Not had any time to read over the last three days. Had 7 hours of irl/face-to-face mafia from shortly after work (7pm) to 2am (waking up at 7am) Tuesday/Thursday and othrr stuff from 6-11 on Wedensday. I don't feel guilty as other people are doing it.

Hop 'hop'. Hop

Friday I should be able to catch up.

[Hopkirk]

Catching up now. Intended to do it earlier but that Hec-Tic fellow on my team 'team' team challenged me to work out all of his alts from a list of ~200 and it took longer than I expected.

Hop 'Hoppins' hops

[Hopkirk]

Wasn’t a fan of Gobble’s readslist in 341 based on the reads since they’re kind of a mix between ‘I don’t get this read’ and ‘This seems like he’s just townreading people based on wordcount’. I liked the line

so I will townread him to keep him around longer.

from a town perspective as I feel like town Gobble (based on personality seen thusfar) wouldn’t think in the exact same way that whoever he doesn’t like is the person who should/will be lynched.
@Gobble: Why was Dunn high town in that list when you brought him up as a main issue? Why do you townread me + which bits are you seeing as reaching?

Lurking as a scum strat has a much higher negative impact than lurking right now as town, though.

VOTE: FormerFish

Mobile site expands the text box when I type in something in the preview screen, hiding the submit button.

Let me know if you solve this, having the same tech issue.


357 from Formerfish I read about three times and I’m not sure if it added anything?
360 from FF also doesn’t strike me as fully natural? Feels more like he’s giving a rundown with some thoughts attached rather than building on thoughts. Might improve as he finishes the catchup? Idk yet/

He said that white flag is hard to win as town. I disagreed and explained why I felt that wasnt true. I don't know why youre calling it a monologue because its not even among the biggest posts in thread and was made on page 2 in response to something from page 1. I dont understand how me explaining why a post made sense for me to contribute at the time will help change something you see as NAI.

NAI in isolation. Potentially AI depending on how well you could justify the thought process. It reads as unnatural to me still and I want to have a think about whether not being able to see that comes more from town (who don’t consider it could be) or mafia. Leaning towards maf more, but not enough to move my general priors to a scum

read

yet.

Hop 'Hoppers' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

On the other hand, 365 from FF reads really good to me and feels like genuine stream of thought rather than team based fakery that I’d expect a hint of from scum in that. None of that jumps out as fake.

Hop 'Hoppington' Hopps

[Hopkirk]

if i were scum, i wouldn't have any problem having rc just give me things to say. i don't have nearly as much time as i would like right now and while it really pains me to be playing this way in front of the entire site, i don't want to be killed before i can actually impact the game.

also, i don't really care to unvote if it's not doing any damage.

If your team decided 'NSG lurks' as a strategy Idk if I can respect the members any more. Me/Hectic + a few other people (not in our team, some on the site and some not) have had good words to exchange about Cowbells irl on at least a couple of occasions and I'm disappointed if this is how y'all are playing it. This really rubs me the wrong way but from either alignment.

I could be getting completely swindled but I dislike the people on FFs wagons and am happy with the wagon I am on.

It seems really super fkn convenient if that's the scum team which means at least one of them is very likely reading this game completely differently to me.

I will say that FF's catch up was eh at best, lots of IIoA inspires not huge confidence.

What did you think of the timings? I was wondering about one of the posts being a super long wall getting written in 20 minutes.
@Fish: for the one I'm talking about on the last page, how did you get that down so fast? If it was in real time it feels like you didn't have much time to think?

I definitely feel there's legitimate feels in the later wall though.

I like my wagon makeup as of this point too.

I will say that FF's catch up was eh at best, lots of IIoA inspires not huge confidence.

I disagree that its iioa, i think that my posts clearly show how i came to read the people im reading the way that im reading them. The page breakdown was mostly for me to organize my own thoughts a little and then i would expand on what I read and how i read it at the bottom of each post.

And to end it all with a full reads list, analysis of the current wagons and a vote to get current is a lot more content than you are making it out to be. If all i did were those page breakdowns then youd have a leg to stand on, but the fact that you dont even engage me on anything i posted during the catch up nor do you seem like you wanna talk about my vote or any of my reads, so I guess I question how much I care about your opinion when youve already made it up without any direct input from me.

Do you think people expect you to respond more aggressively in this response based on your history that I have not read?

Hop 'Hoppingham' Hops

[Hopkirk]

I saw new people and semi-broke my ‘read posts in order catch up’ general rule to check who’s around now. Nice to see you again cheeky but it’s definitely been more than one game. You’ve played with me as town once or twice, the PPG hydra you had with NSG/Key/RC coming to mind from memory.

Did a quick reread of Wgeurt and leant scum there for reasons I’ll look at after the catchup. I'm aware the slot doesn't townread me btw

Oh, no! This appeal to authority completely destroys my suspicions. I guess people who haven't played with someone before aren't capable of reading that person.

Can you summarise what Espy's side of the argument is in like 20 words as you see it?

It's an appeal to experience, not authority. Esp *refused* to take a look at my town games where there's clear evidence against his reason for the scumread, whereas people who played with me have it.

NSG I'm inclined to believe you have time for TM *for reasons*, can you come play the game kthanx

please don't make presumptions about how my team wants me to spend my time. i never lie about real life circumstances and i never will.

I took your prior post as 'we're doing this for tactic reasons', so if it's 'for irl reasons' and I misread/misinterpreted you have some of my apologies.

I don't just offer (all of) my apologies nowadays after that nasty incident with the=at faerie a while back where I bumped into him, he asked for my apologies, I was dumb enough to agree, and I couldn't say sorry for anything for a while afterwords.

I don't care! If he doesn't use meta, that's his prerogative.

Let's try to figure where we disagree.

1. Esp said I'm scum for a reason X.
2. A cursory glance at my town games would show X in those games.
3. Dunn also says I do X as town.
4. Therefore, scumreading me for X is not valid.
5. Therefore, Esp should re-assess.

(I don't think X is scummy by itself anyway, but that's a different issue)

Can you tell me which point you disagree me with on?

There's nothing I like in any of your posts about your meta and I'm leaning towards 'scum annoyed he's getting caught for the wrong reasons' rather than 'town annoyed people aren't actually reading' since it's been consistent over several days at this point which gives a more forced feeling to it.

Hop 'Hoppersonian' Hops

[Hopkirk]

There’s not really specific things I can pick out from Auro’s posts and say ‘this pings me’. It’s more the whole just rubs me as strongly 'I could light townread this' far too many times.

*Sigh*
I mean, the points of contention are that I am scum for XYZ, and it will literally be a hill I die on if they go uncontested
Same exercise: Can you pick out 'points of contention' that you think are unworthy of contesting?

FWIW, if I was scum I wouldn't be active in the way I am right now, I'd just lay low while other wagons happen.

But ... you ... I uh *gestures wildly at gamestate*

Ceph: Lots of disagreements, can get a feel of why he thinks what he is.
Esp: Disingenuous attacks, lack of content - coasting on Auro push.
FF: Wasn't impressed with content prior to the walls, marked for re-evaluation, like the willingness to engage.
Dunn: Passive, find him reasonable, but does that make him town? Idk.
Joan: Agree with Dunn's reasoning on her, at least to make me not want to lynch her right now.
Dann: I want to call his play... political, but I have some reasons to believe he's town, but he's a great scum player as well, argh~ I'll stick to town for now.
NSG: No comments right now, she has to play the game first, but not willing to lynch anyway.
Wgeurts: No thoughts. That first push on inactivity does feel like posturing, but idk.
Dong: I felt his reaction to my push was towny, but I think I should talk to Dann more about this sometime.
KittyMo: I forgot what I thought of this player before.

On a gamestate level my hunch is that there's scum prolly in the lurkers, and not all scum are pushing me / townreading me at the same time. I think scum would find it easy to coast while I drum up pages of content arguing over things which only seems to strengthen the pushes on me.

Ngl, feeling pretty left out here

Hop 'Hippohopamus' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

Kitty’s wallpost only style isn’t one I think I could ever comfortably townread based on what I currently look for to try and find scum. It feels too uninteractive while being in a cheeful tone that makes me want to townread it followed by me asking myself why.

I read Gobble as obvtown, obvscum, and obvthirtypartywikimod and it evens out somewhere north of town. I want more from the slot though, I feel like he’s struggling to engage with the game for ? reason.

Found your alt by accident btw Gobble when looking for Hectic’s alt(s). You didn’t cover it up well at all.

My townread on Gobble was kind of assuming he’d keep on posting and I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt that he’s not lying on irl activity stuff and hope people extent to same courtesy to me and my busy weekdays explanations. This week I intend to 100% be busy for Tuesday/Thursday and posting on Wed is dependent on whether I can face it>needing to recharge without any kind of interactions.

I’m very unclear who scum Auro is trying to win over in general or if he’s just dying publicly here.

Don’t think I remember anything about Dong. I couldn’t even tell you what their avatar looked like.

Getting some pretty serious shade from Kitty in 527 in that implication (‘lmao’) she doesn’t think I’m even remotely funny, thinks it’s pretty sad if I think I am, and just thinks I should stop (in response to Gobble’s comment). I might be imagining this in the same way it turns out Elements was imaging he always got lynched d1 (turned out to be literally once when we counted it earlier despite him being 100% sure it was like 5-6 times). Pretty weird Mandela effect there. If this keeps coming up, then the whole site is going to have to be as [redacted] as AaronFrost’s wiki page used to be. Even then, I’m not going to forgot this Kitty.

Hop 'Hop'nop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

Auros not my scumread, i think that defending himself isnt indicative of scumminess but rather misplaced focus. Espeonage is my highest scumread right now and former would have to come second though its not half as strong as esp.

you think i'm being pocketed? Do I need master-stranger protocols on here.

Yup, im caught up, its just the way people have been generally responding (wallposts and multiquotes) have done a number on me and its hard to follow or respond to some stuff. I'll try explaining my read on you but i dont want to lynch you yet, or at least over espionage

Yeah it really makes it harder for me to motivate myself to read walls than normal posts and I don't feel I get as much out of them. I read Dunn/Kitty posts and I just think 'I don't see how I can tell whether this is scum who spent a while on it or town who spent a little less time but still a while on it' since neither really read as free thought flow in the way/timing FF's did.

Auro - 4 (Cephrir, Hopkirk, Espeonage, Formerfish)

I have briefly skimmed this game. Not town reading this wagon plus Dunnstral who I keep flip-flopping on

Hubby </3. Why? I thought you'd always be faithful.

Kitty-mo is my strongest town read, everyone else seems ok?

Auro could you rank my suspects from towniest to scummiest from your POV?

Shakin' up the thread eh? That's your game is it. Not in my town.

I didn't realize Geurts was getting replaced. Wifey you have a hole to climb out of.

You guys adopting?

Bruh, be real with me, did someone coach you to do/say this? You prodged Friday (promising stuff Saturday), Sunday (promising stuff Tuesday), and then again on Tuesday. So what I get from that and this explanation is that you had stuff you thought was worth addressing over the weekend as of Friday, then on Sunday went "ehhh I'm going to take this opportunity to lurk to watch activity levels" instead, and then got actually busy. What would an activity level change have indicated to you? I've never really been in a position where I cared about watching activity levels in relation to myself - because I know my alignment already, so I don't know what there is TO watch from that? Like if there's a defined narrative involving other people and no one's challenging it, that's a game state worth examining and can be telling. If you wanted to stop posting to let pressure on you taper from everyone's boredom, I'd rather you just admitted it. Otherwise: please clarify.

By commenting on stuff I meant like things that Dunnstral was needling, but I didn’t think it was worth it for the game state to get into a post by post quote strip war. I don’t have the time for it at least

How come you didn't comment on my constant 'pls forgive me for not posting' Kitty?

Also why do you think I would be coached to say that?

Do you think you'd actually

let

yourself get coached as scum?

Hop 'Hopopenuse' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Formerfish

oh no

And I'm town so this game is gonna be way easier than I anticipated woot woot

I'm sold.

I was going to make a joke about how we're all basically just being bought and sold constantly nowadays but I decided it'd probably bring the thread down and Hectic thought it might have been going too far.

Fuckers

If this is mountanious like i've been told we have an easy win on our hands. In the meantime while i catch scum:
VOTE: Formerfish

these two

Ooh, those are pretty forced yeah.

Hopkirk, I can town case him tomorrow, I need to sleep first. I would ask why you're so down on him though? What are your concerns? He's the sort of slot I just want to point to and be like "obv town lol"

I've had one game with the hop and he was scum who looked town and won. So I might have PTSD(post-traumatic scum disorder) as all I get from reading his ISO is wtf? I'm not leaning one way or the other just genuinely perplexed and would like to see others' takes there.


In regards to FF, I feel like he's trying to be town instead of being town. I adore town FF and this game just feels like a shell of that. Could it be that the pressure of the TM stage is altering the play I'm used to from him? Sure, but less so and from a less relatable place than my Turkey read.

I also don't follow his read progessions, like how does my slot go from town to scum lean with no posts in between? Why do I get the feeling his reads are a jigsaw he's piecing together based on likely lynch trajectories?

His interactions feel like self-aware read interventions rather than the comically aggressive kick-ass-I-don't-care-if-you-hate-me pushes and tunnels I've seen.
I'm heartbroken.

Well I assume I didn't really joke at all in that scumgame and I've joked in all of my towngames recently and OH GOD IS THAT THE MODS WITH A HAMMER OH PLEASE NO I'M JUST TRYING TO BE LESS SERIOUS AND HAVE MORE FUN WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH THAT MODKILL AGH WHY CAN'T I FEEL MY LEGS WHY'S IT GETTING SO COLD

More seriously and with less joking around, haven't we played several games together where I was town too?

Where exactly am I not obvtown?

@Fish: for the one I'm talking about on the last page, how did you get that down so fast? If it was in real time it feels like you didn't have much time to think?

Wanna translate this for me? I don't like answering riddles when they make no sense.

Ok

sure

365 is very long and 20 mins after your previous post.

Now I need you to prove you're being sincere by answering a riddle for me that does make sense: what goes up a chimney down but not down a chimney up? -Riddle courtesy of Hectic. Thanks Hectic! Now how about you give me that meta case you've been promising. I feel like you haven't actually played with Bugspray or how you know he's going to replace FF when he needs to leave abruptly in 4 days, but you've convinced me it's going to be fine enough and you have a good track record so I'm going to trust you on this one.

I'm leaning towards 'scum annoyed he's getting caught for the wrong reasons'

Lol

Haha.

Hop 'Hop-Hop-Hop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

i'm sad mathdino isn't playing. so many inside jokes i was prepared to make that now nobody will get

Oh, just got this one on a second readthrough, nice reference.

For the benefit of anyone who doesn't get it, dinosaurs can't actually do maths. It's ironic.

sorry dann, this game will not be the full "nsg experience"

think we may have already found scum though, holding off on committing for now

i apologize if this is frustrating, but my team unanimously agrees that it's best for me to spend my time elsewhere. if i don't get nightkilled this game will be my first priority tomorrow.

Because 'I have secret scumreads backed by a great group of players, that I'll reveal d2' is

absolutely

the way to avoid the nightkill.

Hop 'hophiphophanes' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

Tastes good to be caught up. Smells like freedom.

Hop 'Hop just sthop' hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

I said I'd say why I didn't like Cheeky's past life but I don't feel motivated and Auro would probably get lonely idk.

Hop 'Hoppynop' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

Ready through me own iso to make sure I only promised to look at one thing after I caught up (i think so) and wow this hurt more than I remembered.

First time that cowardly fucker Hopkirk ever did anything worth shit in a game of mafia.

I'm sorry Gobbles

I'm looking at a towncore of: Espeon, FF, Gobble, Ceph
Lurker: North, BB
Want to townread but don't like why: Kitty
Want to scumread but don't know why: Dunn
Meanies: Auro, Dong, Dann (though eddie is aok in my ledger), Cheeky.

The meanies range from lynchable to uh in my opinions here.

Hop 'Hopalop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

Well I assume I didn't really joke at all in that scumgame and I've joked in all of my towngames recently and OH GOD IS THAT THE MODS WITH A HAMMER OH PLEASE NO I'M JUST TRYING TO BE LESS SERIOUS AND HAVE MORE FUN WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH THAT MODKILL AGH WHY CAN'T I FEEL MY LEGS WHY'S IT GETTING SO COLD

This may not sound as explicit as I wanted it to, even with the caps. I haven't rolled scum in any of my recent games. I joke more in mafia nowadays due to personality. I will absolutely joke as either alignment to the best of my knowledge. I'm not sure if scum me would have better jokes or if they'd sound forced, but I guess if you can 'comedy' ('s intentional) read people then Hectic's probably going to have to murder you in your sleep.

Hop 'Hoppydoplop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

Yes, I am asking you how 365 came 20 minutes after 364 given 365 was pretty long and I'm not 100% sure how you could type that much if you were thinking in depth about what you were typing.

Hop 'Hoppity' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

Cool.

When did I post 360?

A while later. Relevant how?

Just imagine me like Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinny, unfortunately you are going to be a bumpkin on the stand.

You're going to luck into it due to a friend's knowledge?


Currently I'm talking to people on sitechat and posting in other games. I'm also not planning to stay for more than 40 mins max as I want to do other stuff tonight - if you wanna talk.

Hop 'Hoppylopdop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

oh i see what you mean, you made those shorter posts while that one was in draft. That makes sense

Hop 'Hopenhop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

Hop, why am I a meanie to you?

Nothing specifically bad but I feel like I should have more reason to like you by now than I do if that makes sense?

Hop 'Hoppen' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

oh i see what you mean, you made those shorter posts while that one was in draft. That makes sense

Hop 'Hopenhop' Hop

Yes, I realized. Solved the main thing I had doubts on myself.

Hop 'Hoppylop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

Didn't I put you as one of my main townreads and realize that my only real point against you was provably wrong before you explained why when I'd know you could 100% explain why if you looked at it?

Hop 'Hoppy' Hop

[Hopkirk]

Eddie does seem like a respectable guy from what I know of him.

NSG I don't understand what she's trying to do and I'd definitely consider voting there.

Why town Cheeky? I remember liking her replacee first time around but didn't on a reread. Cheeky feels kind of like 'scummier if we're on right tracks, townier if we're not' to me. Bayesian associations make her slightly scummier based on that, but otherwise no real read on Cheeky's own contributions thusfar.

Hop 'Hoppilly' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

Oh the Auro wagon has half shifted so keeping it up is less pressure than I thought. Sure.

VOTE: Northside

Hop 'Hopimilius' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

I feel like I trust Eddie but not you kind of?

Hop 'Hopsofhophop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

I feel like I trust Eddie but not you kind of?

Hop 'Hopsofhophop' Hop

Following on with a quick discussion with Hectic, we were planning to play without telling each other what alignment each of us are. This hasn't worked super well as I learnt Hectic/Flopz's anyway and Elements is no longer with us. Hectic was happy for me to discuss this tactic.

I suggested this strategy as I feel like it lets your team get more objective reads on pushes on your slot (if your team reads which I'm sure Hectic but probably not Flopz will eventually).

Is your team doing anything similar?

Hop 'Hopup' Hop

[Hopkirk]

I asked Hectic about this and we think you have

told

him your role pm.
I also feel very slightly better on you based on this...?

Hop [Hopney] Hops

[Hopkirk]

So first off Hectic asked me to come back online because he just realized why Eddie was asked and wants to clarify that he 'may have been lying about some stuff'.
Hectic is not currently aware what my alignment is because I haven't told him because I think it's advantageous not to share roles pms.

@Cheeky: You are not a townread. You're like light scumread atm?
Kitty I've been glossing over a lot of what she posts thinking 'I can't tell if this is alignment indicative'.

I'll go into reads tomorrow. I should have time. I'll try and look at this stuff. Suggest anything else worth doing if wanted.
-Cheeky's predecessor reread
-Auro (though I'm not really sure how to put my reads into words)
-FF (a reread of the walls first probably)
-Espeon reread maybe?

I don't think our reads are that different Dann. Ceph town for both. Dong/NSG not good. Main dif is placement of my tone 'I can't sort these comfortably' reads. I agree they're generating content and doing townie things but I'm not convinced that generally strong players can't just do/sound townie like that anyway if they put effort in which the two of them clearly are. There were a couple of things I liked about Kitty, but she's clearly involved to the point I have concerns about sorting her so quickly/easily. Unless you have specifics?

If you're having trouble understanding my thought process there it's because I'm working on a system of 'more scum seem to turn up in my d1 light townreads than my d1 light scumreads so I want to be careful about people I want to gut townread based on tone'.

FF I found it kind of weird that I clearly townread him - as Cheeky said - but he attacked a minor misinterpretation in a way that really sounded like he thought he was talking to scum-Hop.

I'll check in in an hour or so for twenty minutes if anything is pertinent. Busy Tuesday/Thursday and all of next Sunday atm.

Hop 'Hoppington' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

I feel like understanding Gobbles cracks a lot for me here?

Hop 'Hopson' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

How do you read Auro's rant vs Espeon Dann? TvS, TvT, not SvS?

Hop 'Hophophorray' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

I'm hoping Flopz doesn't read this game. He's really not a fan of that kind of 'oh let's reference past games and hope nobody notices while we laugh at the people not in the loop' style.

Hop 'Hoppery' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

As someone who spent two hours earlier trying to narrow down a list of users from 200 to about 10 to work out Hectic's alts, I know how search works. It comes off as uninteractive/discrediting/gatekeepy when you start trying to use 'oh we played together in the past and don't want to elaborate so people know what we mean unless they spend ages reading x game we know they don't have time to read'.

Hop 'Hopminius' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

Is anything you said their actually an invitation for me to respond to or is it you standing on a box and trying to tell other people not to listen to me?

Hop 'Hoppp' Hoppers

[Hopkirk]

Is anything you said their actually an invitation for me to respond to or is it you standing on a box and trying to tell other people not to listen to me?

Hop 'Hoppp' Hoppers

I'm surprised you took my summary seriously and responded to my points in it. If I were a scumread of yours would you not see what I've done as disingenuous misrepping or something? I don't like how reasonable you're trying to be, it feels like you know I'm town.

It sounded serious.
I try and treat the person I'm talking to as town to avoid deathtunneling them which I used to do a lot.

Hop 'Hoop' Hops

[Hopkirk]

There's a fairly likely chance I'll take something like that seriously because

personality based reasons

. Didn't read as a joke for me.

Hop 'Hopps' Hop

[Hopkirk]

What's scummy about what you did?

I wonder if that count possibly be a personality tell. No way of knowing tbh /s

Hop 'Hoppity' Hops

[Hopkirk]

Not really feeling it tonight so I'll try and get to this wed. Going to go through thoughts on wgeurts now then catch up later in the week. I saw a few posts on my phone in the bathroom etc earlier but the site doesn't usually show me a submit button to phonepost.

Opening wasn't bad like I was thinking. I think I mixed it up with Dong's.
178 when I looked briefly yesterday this reminded me of a couple of posturing posts scum-Gobble made in my last game. Reading properly It's completely NAI.
[post] 205 [/[post] I like for town.

Nothing really wrong with pre-Cheeky (one or two minor points I like) and I kind of liked Cheeky yesterday except for her asking me why I didn't find something suspicious that I'm not sure why I should find it suspicious (will quote on the catch up in a few days) so that's probably a townread as of (yesterday evening thread size_- though not up to date so subject to change.


I feel like NSG would have been replaced by now if she was a newbie instead of someone with a strong rep. It's been like 8 days since she posted anything other than 'I'm sorry I'm lurking'.

Her latest post definitely doesn't address the two game related issues I have: that she's not revealing her teams' solid scumread from earlier, and more importantly that the posts she's actually made over the last few days saying stuff like 'we have reads and plan to commit heavily day 2' really doesn't make sense if you're trying to avoid the nightkill in a vanilla game. Clearly her team should have mentioned this. I could see them thinking that we'll just assume she's scum after she doesn't die n1 (assuming she is scum obviously), so they're making her such an attractive target that they can say 'scum is just not killing her so that people mislynch her' then act like everyone is against her the next day to cover for a subsequent town mislynch she pushes.

I feel NSG has negative scum equity with Auro though so I should probably reread Auro as a priority and decide how far I stand there.

Hop 'Hoppberry' Hops

[Hopkirk]

I'll reread Auro/Dong/Esp next time I'm on.
Ceph/FF/Gobble I'm solid on for town. Gobble keeps flipping between solid town and 'why hasn't the scumteam pushed him? Does the thread look like this if scum are actually here and people like Auro?'
Espeon I skimmed lying in bed last night and don't think I liked his entrance as much as I'd thought.
A lot of my scumleans I'm shaky on. I'm more going for townreads and PoE today.
I can see myself sheeping Ceph on a lot of people.

Hop 'Hoppington' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

I'm going to strongly imply there's a pretty good reason my general tone/writing/thinking style might sound odd to you. Let me know if you think it's different to my other games.

Hop 'Hoppity' Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

I haven't even remotely caught up and won't until tomorrow evening at the earliest.

VOTE: Dunn

[Hopkirk]

Imagine if it's just Dunn/Gobble/Fish.

(Currently at work and bathroom posting as i realized the submit button only disappears if I quote stuff or add formatting).

Hop 'hopping' Hops

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: gobble

Hop 'hophop' hop

[Hopkirk]

I want to knew EXACTLY what you've been talking to your partner's about this game gobble. Everywhere they've given you thoughts or suggested something to say. Your tone doesn't feel like it's coming from only one person and you haven't indicated that it isn't.

Hop 'hopnop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

I'm really concerned about assuming we must have solved this day one and just going with a consensus lynch. It feels like there's no resistance whatsoever to my scumreads and that doesn't make me feel that confident in the lynches. Maybe we're just doing that well since it's team mafia, but I'm not convinced that everything is as easy as it looks here.

Hop 'hopalop' hop

[Hopkirk]

I feel like the obvious scum never actually seem to flip scum and the 'people i kind of townread d1' are the people who actually flip scum a lot more often.

Hop 'hoppop' hop

[Hopkirk]

NSG can easily flip scum but that's still 40%ish at best. FF has scum equity with Gobble/Dunn but feels town taken on his own.

Hop 'hoppop' hop

[Hopkirk]

Dong I scumread, and this may change when I actually read the last dozen pages, but I remember everyone seeming to scumread him. I also remember someone saying he wasn't getting voted/there was resistance, so I can easily be mistaken and this is subject to change on an actual non drunk catch up.

Hop 'hipkork' hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

That's nice, but it doesn't explain how you keep pointing to wagon resistance but think that both of these people can be scum

Obviously our partner is pushing a vanity wagon (Looking at you Hoppy, come on, let's play).

I'm going to catch up tonight. After that I'll write some more fanfic about Hectic.

I'm not a fan of the FF lynch. As of where I am, not a dong fan but that could change tonight.

Hop 'hoppop' hop

[Hopkirk]

Well I'm not catching up then.

I don't like who was on that wagon on North.

Hop 'Hop-pop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

I didn't read up. I can't now either and no idea when I'll be able to next week due to work.

I've seen the lynch. I've lost all respect for NSG as a player. I've lost the respect that I had for RC as a player. I've discussed it with the team- people who've discussed irl how they like RC - and everyone seems to share this view.

I'm especially irritated as this clearly was only allowed due to reputation. A new player in that slot with an 7 day period without content would have been subbed out. When it's clearly strategic since she was playing elsewhere in TM I'm pissed that it was actually allowed and would have been disgusted if she was pulling that as my teammate.

Quoting my post end gimmick because fuck this game.

[Hopkirk]

I can see people are voting me. no idea why don't care. If it's some shit like 'didn't vote his partner at the end despite us hammering with a day left when he said 3 days beforehand he'd be catching up then and had been voting her for several days/clearly supported the again over any of the actual counrwagons and my only other votes were on people who were townread enough not to get lynched and hence clearly pointless as counterwagins' then honestly actually scumunting later isn't going to be worth the very limited time I actually have at this point and you can tell me now that nobody knows what they're doing so I can do other stuff instead.

[Hopkirk]

I'm mostly disgusted with RC/North and irritated with the mod for enabling it despite prod rules. The lynch I absolutely agreed with as I fairly clearly said. I don't remember if I used the words I want to policy lynch this.

[Hopkirk]

So did nobody correct my assumption we'd have a day before deadline when I was laying out when I could catch up?

[Hopkirk]

Obviously that changes things yeah, but it sounds like you're just calling scum me stupid there if there was a valid counterwagob and I had no reason to push north beforehand then jump off and impocatr myself.

[Hopkirk]

I thought we had 1-2 days left as my skimming saw someone say there was over a day left and I assumed I could move around skittle first.

[Hopkirk]

jesus christ I had to read your last sentence four times to understand what the hell you were saying lmfao

My phone likes to switch words into the wrong ones and I'm typing fast because it's past kidnight, I'm getting up at six, haven't had much sleep this week due to work stuff, and have an away job next week that's going to involve a lot of travel and likely 12 hour days. This probably isn't something I'm going to read my phonephone posts throughout for. I'm not going back to correct spelling and read for sense.

[Hopkirk]

I haven't even remotely caught up and won't until tomorrow evening at the earliest.

VOTE: Dunn

Imagine if it's just Dunn/Gobble/Fish.

(Currently at work and bathroom posting as i realized the submit button only disappears if I quote stuff or add formatting).

Hop 'hopping' Hops

VOTE: gobble

Hop 'hophop' hop

What sparked this progression Hopkirk?

Why did you vote Dunn and Gobble when you did without catching up?

Thinking about Gobble and the wagon on NSG and not knowing where the scum actually would be in that scenario unless they were doing literally nothing the entire day.

I assumed I had time to vote around a bit and intended to follow up after I caught up.

[Hopkirk]

I don't understand how 'making the dumbest possible decisions as scum that have no benefits, draw attention to you, and likely get you killled are considered the peak of cmscumhunting/acumtells.

[Hopkirk]

So I hard townread cheeky/fish/gobble/ceph from yesterday and I'd need to actually read the game to catch up. I was going to do that tonight but I decided to go see Wicked instead.

Hop 'hopinda' hop

[Hopkirk]

I'll try and put two hours of drunk into reading at ten despite a planned half six start. Just shrink that Poe pool enough to auto win or fund one scum. Shouldn't be hard. I don't particularly understand how anyone could scumread me. I'm obv town and I assume people are only attacking me for 'trying to divert the lynch' while also claiming that I wasn't doing anything that would get those people lynched. When I find whoever's saying stuff like that someone's dying.

Hop 'hoppervision' hoppers

[Hopkirk]

I don't even know how to pay scum these days. If my partner didn't want to play in white flag I'd have read Hectic's game like he keeps asking for some real.

Hop 'hopdop' jip

[Hopkirk]

It would have been great to roll scum here. My whole team got the dream of rolling town so we basically move to top of the list. Since we can't actually win the event because of that error, which I feel would absolutely not have been a modkill if he was an established player since he literally said he planned to do it next time he was still do it was a damn 'trust tell' by coincidence and town win all the games we're top of the board and I have a reason to put hard effort into this. Apparently it's fine if respected players play with strategies that don't get them replaced for no reason other than them being respected while we get fucking knocked of the event for it. Think it's fairly obviously why I'm pissed at disrespecting us by not playing and riding on rip. I clearly wanted to lynch North or I wouldn't have voted her. If I was scum I'd still bus her on policy. I don't get why anyone would have a scumread on me for voting random people without giving any reason or effort into it. How's that ever going to divert a lynch. My thought process is goddamn transparabt and how could nobody get that. Especially people who towned me D1. Don't know what espy is thinking there but how do they even win at that point.

Hop 'hoptop' hop

[Hopkirk]

Some of that misspelling and awful formatting is due to me phoneposting, not to being drunk or anything. Wicked was great by the way, highly recommend. I'll post with hopefully more sense and an aim to get 1 scumread or 5 strong town tonight. Dong is probably scum. FF and Rooster are town or scum together.

Hop 'hoptoc' hop

[Hopkirk]

I'm start Ng to doubt whether I can scumhuntingnwothoutnserint straight so this will be tomorrow.

I'm.aware how bad the above one looks but hophphop

Hop 'HP' hop

[Hopkirk]

I want to lynch gobbles but not espy tbh.

Hop 'hop-frs16' hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

I haven't read most of the game and even I can see how it's gobble and BB.

Bad news is my work laptop apparently blocks mafiascum so I'm doing a catch up - though likely just a read through catch up rather than a ton of quotes due to time - then it'll be phone posting for a while.
Hop 'hopstein' hop

[Hopkirk]

Mills mad we caught his partner

VOTE: gobble

[Hopkirk]

Except I'm obvtown here Espy. Get serious.

Hop 'Hopdrop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

If you're scum then don't make gamethrowingly bad reads. Just a tip.

Hop 'Hopstop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

I'm reading Isos instead of reading the thread.

Espys is horrific and isn't getting to endgame.

Hop 'hopcop' hop

[Hopkirk]

1 minute earlier and I could have ended it

I read several ISOs. I didn't read people like Fish/Cheeky/Ceph/Auro because they're obvtown already.

[Hopkirk]

hey I was very tired last night

Why are Dong and FF and Hop all not voting

...

Hi, I have an auditing job that kept me.busy from.6.30am-8pm today. I didn't have

Although idk why anyone is voting with a desire to lynch this quickly into the day. I'd vote gobble, but I absolutely want to use the time today to look through all my townreads and think 'if they're scum who are they/aren't they scum with'. I also.want to.read a lot more.of the game.in general.why would town hop ever vote at this point from your perspective. At best you're throwing shade and I want to know how you think you're not being disingenuous here.

I assume you have a 100% solve based on what you're saying mills so let's hear this heavily justified explanation.

Hop 'hoptier' hop

[Hopkirk]

I'm fairly sure I said BB/Gobbles was one of my top picks right now.

Going to Hamilton tonight after another long work day so don't expect much. I'd vote gobble here but I want to drag this day out to let's say two before deadline so I can properly solve.

Hop 'hopilton' hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

So the point is that if I drag out the day I can actually contribute towards the end when I'm working 40 hour weeks instead of 60 hour weeks.

Do I honestly look like someone who's sure he's got a solve when I'm blatently not up to date? Dragging out the day is for me, not for anyone elses reactions.

Got 20mins before the show and WiFi so I'll try and get through some of Molla and Auros posts.

Hop 'hopcop' hop

[Hopkirk]

Reread Auro. Strong townread. If he's scum he's not playing into a game winning state. Just looking at it mecjanically, scum-auro buddying me here is risky as shit since I scumread him D1 and scum.ideally want me lynched today because they aren't particularly sure what my reads are going to be when I get back into the game after the current audit. Not sure what Damn is voting so I'm going to say if he's voting me then Eddie told.him he needs a hop lynch today to win, and if he isn't then he's likely town.

I'm leaving out actually content, but I'd need to know if Auro was actually a controversial slot to bother town casing him, and I can't do that on mobile anyway.

Show is starting soon (super excited) so I'll be back tommorow if I can get WiFi to work on the train. I'll aim to go through Dann and Molla. Cheeky is a top priority to get a read on as well.since a townread there is close to a solve and a scumread anywhere is objectively a solve.

Hop 'hoppens' hop

[Hopkirk]

I fully intend to play this game for 2-3 hours on Saturday between DND and meeting people.for stuff. I actively don't want a lynch until I've read up enough to have a solid read on the gamestate.

Hop 'hopadop' hop

[Hopkirk]

Should be able to play Sunday morning and possibly on the train on Friday too.

[Hopkirk]

I don't particularly care how many people are voting me. Town doesn't lynch me before I've had time to gamesolve. If they do they get fucked on post game points because that's objectively bad play.

I scumread anyone who's got a partner that's played with town hop if that partner scumreads me btw. No idea if this applies to anyone.

Hop 'hop hoppington' hop

[Hopkirk]

I'm going to start reading some isos. I have a couple of hours.

Before I start, my current thought process is that Dann/Gobble is the scumteam, but we never lynch Dann there, and if Gobbles flips town we never lynch Dann.

Dong and Auro are town.

[Hopkirk]

Elements' modkill had no effect on my activity.

Hopkirk, you’re not one of my top scum picks but that’s such a weird thought process regardless.

A: why do I need a Hop lynch to win? I think if I really wanted to I could drive a lynch on anyone except maybe Cheeky and Cephrir.

B: why would voting you be a scum claim? Why would Eddie have or even needed to have coached that? Why is the that the one distinguishing factor in my alignment?

Based on the trajectory you've said Eddie has on me- thinking I can solve- if he believes that (why does he?) then it becomes substantially more beneficial for scum-you to push me today before I get the opportunity. You don't

need

it to win, things just become messier and more attention pointing to you if you have to hard debate it at any point.

I challenge anyone to multi-iso Dann/Auro and tell me that those initial interactions are natural.

I want to try and iso all the consensusy town reads.

Dann, your team should discuss and come to a conclusion. Seems like Eddie wants Dong dead, Ank Hopkirk, and tw Cheeky.

I'm not sure what I'd want Ank to specifically look at in the game. Activity levels from a lot of suspect slots have been low.

We’re pretty settled on Hopkirk... for right now. That might change as people catch up.

Duck hasn’t had time to read as much so he’s really only given passing thoughts.

Can you go into more on why Ank and Eddie think that I'm scum in terms of specifics? Not particularly concerned about you or Duck's reads there.

Dong's "solve" is extremely wonky. His scumpool is effectively Auro/Gobbles/Dann.
I'm trying to get Gob lynched, and Dann's willing to flip that too, so the only pair remaining is Dann+Auro.

And that solve doesn't match with his gamestate read (scum want to control the game or whatever).

You think Dann looks willing to lynch Gobble? None of his team want to push Gobble today, he's listed Gobble as someone we might compromise on later - but that's not anti-pairing indicative since he's framed his perspective on the game as fluid, is a big voice in the thread, and would clearly have scope to avoid a compromise lynch purely by saying 'actually let's lynch this person instead as Eddie just got a hard scumread and we changed our minds.'

Very interested in why they're not a pairing. I'm surprised that none of Dann's team seem notably suspicious of Gobble here.

Gobble likely only flips scum with effort-Dann or low effort players like Molla/Fish. Fish remains a townread. No convinced a scumteam goes for the d1 bus then remains super active with Gobble in it unless they have a decent control of the thread, and nobody else fits in the activity sweet spot I'd expect from a Gobble scumpartner.

Hop 'Hopdrop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

I don't see Molla flipping scum. I don't think Molla's done anything useful to town at any point and is currently my thought for least valuable player, but that's town LVP.

Where's everyone on Cheeky scumflip since she appears in a lot of what I'm considering.

Hop 'Hopup' Hop

[Hopkirk]

So does anyone think Hop scum is scum with anyone except Fish/Auro/Dong?

D1 wagon got brought up about me a couple of times and that's just odd. Scum hop stays on the wagon and doesn't attract attention. Scum Hop has no reason to draw attention to himself when he knows he won't have time afterwards to properly respond to it/influence the tone of the response. If I'm scum then I sacrificed the niche I could coast on and decided that I'd leave the entire game 100% up to how a strong (given teams very strong) group of town find consensus town leaders and leave my chance of winning purely up to their whims?
Mechanically I had a much stronger incentive to actually play as scum since if I pulled scum and won then we win the entire event, assuming town won Elements game. I'm probably going to stop talking here actually and just post what I've typed so far.

Do I feel like scum Gobble who overestimate the towncred he'd get from bussing is likely here?

Hop 'Hopadop' Hop

[Hopkirk]

Cheeky and her blood thirsty gang, what happens to your view of this game when I flip town? Who do you suspect after that? Where do you go from there? You all are banking very heavily on me flipping scum, but when that doesn’t happen, how will your view of this game change?

Cheeky can also flip scum with Gobble. Ceph only flips scum with Cheeky so that's never a lynch.

[Hopkirk]

Ceph/Cheeky both look town but make sense together.

Would not lynch either today because of night kill kill pools- scum kills one of them and confirms the other, and they're widely townread enough that one of them gets nightkilled before we're forced to decide there.

[Hopkirk]

I think if town-Ceph locktowned on me then town sweeps this.

[Hopkirk]

People I’m never lynching for 100% right now include: Ceph/Molla/Dong

[Hopkirk]

That leaves a possible lynchpool of

Dannflor
Formerfish
CheekyTeeky
Auro
gobbledygook

Formerfish is a townread that I may need to revisit. What've we got 3 choose 5 there?

[Hopkirk]

I honestly do not understand how Dann's team comes to consensus agreement that I'm scum legitimately. It absolutely reads like they're coming to a push on me when they decided I wasn't vibing well with the town reads now.

Not particularly a fan of the recent Dann effort based townreads as scum have a lot

more

reason to put effort into their team mafia game.

[Hopkirk]

Auro reads as fairly obvtown. I feel like if he's scum it's with other people in that lynchpool. My solve for lynches atm is looking like

Gobble/Dan/Cheeky

Should hit anything?

[Hopkirk]

There's scum equity in the people not being meaningfully pushed. Looking from my perspective this gamestate doesn't happen with consensus townreads being right here.

I don't accept that in a gamestate where the people most widely considered town have discussed it with their teams and are happy to vote me here. Just look at how good team mafia towns in general are. I'm very unconvinced that the alleged amount of effort being put into this results in Esperon then me being the primary wagons when we're 2/4 of the easiest lynch targets in the game (based on general reads/activity/avoiding consensus challenging)- the other 2 being Dong and Gobble.

Hop 'Hopcoptor' Hop

[Hopkirk]

I don't think my team have read the game at all. Currently asking Hectic about how the Eddie/Dann dynamic unfolded in their game.

Here's a thought Molla, don't complain about other people being bad when you have no apparent ability to gel with people.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Gobble

Hop 'Hopz' Hop

[Hopkirk]

BB pushed gobble enough that it's less likely.
BB seems like abrasive town which reduces the likelihood.
It's covered by a Gobbles lynch.

So is Ank just considering everything I said d1 as neutral if it's 'not a townread'?

[Hopkirk]

oh which one?

[Hopkirk]

So you think that town have grabage reads but you're also in favour of two pretty consensus lynches? Are you sure you're feeling ok here.

I'm open to forming a more positive and cooperative relationship between us here, but I'm going to need you enabling the scum. I hope we can get over your problem together, but I'm going to need you to work with me and you need to want to change.

Hop 'Hopo' Hops

[Hopkirk]

I see two peoppe not on me who are happy to vote me + ² people who haven't given an opinion there I believe?

[Hopkirk]

Dong hop is a strong pairing. Scum are probably shaking now that Ceph has a strong townread on both of us and I've caught them.with a solve.

I'll look more at Auro when I can tommorow based on your read dong. If there's something super specific there it'd help to point it out, but it's probably in your iso.

[Hopkirk]

Hop if BB is town then either I have to be scum or all town are voting you right now :V

You mean the 3 people including you? Not sure I see a problem there?

I dont really see that as being unlikely though when my top individual scumread isn't voting, most people in general aren't voting, and I'm not a fan of you.

If it's gobble with you or cheeky then it makes absolute sense. If it's gobble with Molla it makes sense. If it's gobble.with fish it makes sense because fish isn't here.

I want to hear more about your team's thought processes on me.

[Hopkirk]

the general feeling in my team chat is that hop's catchup is designed to look towny but it doesn't really logically make sense

And Hop feels panicked tonally

also fmpov the wagon on Hop is 3 town so I'm happy with this lynch

It looks like anything other than flow of consciousness?

Saying it doesn't make logical sense isn't a valid critique. Which bits? Considering that I'm confirmed town and you're not based are assumed knowledge underlying any logic.

[Hopkirk]

My gamesolve is to gamesolve. Not to look town. I've already obvtowned.

[Hopkirk]

Kind of surprised none of your team is even claiming they did meta tbh.

[Hopkirk]

Oh, ok.

And he did, a week ago, i just havent been able to post.

He had Dann and Dunn as obvi town.

He is confortable calling you town.

Cheeky is he hemming and hawing over.

Hopkirk didnt set off alarms, Re did mention the drop in activity and his catch up votes on dunn/gobb as being bad, scum lean.

Dong not thrilled with. ISO is unimpressive and very lurky.

He had the team at NSG/Espy/Dong

And we were wrong on Espy so i think that promotes hopkirk to a potential partner.

Please provide a very strong reason why you consider my catch up votes to be suspicious rather than near trust tell levels of town indicativeness or you nove to my top scumread.

Hops catch up didn't make sense to me. Still fine lynching in gobble/hop

That's very unspecific.

Hop when did I go from obv town to lynch pool for you?

You're obvtown and lynchpool. You're the case of 'if all of these people flip town when I expected one to flip scum, cheeky is still alive in the lylo vote, and a lot of people have brought up concerns that i share about deepwolfing and cheeky has consistently continued to push the bad lynches, and the only people left have poor team equity then lynch cheeky'. That's why you were third in that list than began with gobbles when we have three options to lynch.

Also I don't think you look at your wagon as town and say, "yeah that could be all town"

I'm struggling to remotely understand why I wouldn't think this? My scumreads in general include you who you're excluding from this, gobble who hasnt caught up and my non townreads include a lot of people who haven't expressed opinions.

Voting me makes Ceph and Molla bad at reading me. It absolutely doesn't make top townreads less of townreads because I understand people can have bad reads. I'm noy Sure why I should have an issue with it and am directly asking you why I should here.

Kind of surprised none of your team is even claiming they did meta tbh.

ank specifically scum reads you for reasons she cannot talk about rnow

I was thinking a lot more about Eddie than Ank here since you've mentioned Eddie described me as a strong town player when I'm only aware of playing with Eddie (unless ALTs) once, which feels off to me.

Wasn't really thinking Ank because we'd only played an ongoing game, that that's over now. I'd say my play is reasonably different to that game due to approach needing to be different based on expected skill, but if that's the only game she's basing it on when she's shown she does look at meta, it's odd that she's not looked elsewhere. I can infer she hasn't looked elsewhere from you sayijg that she can't talk about it.

[Hopkirk]

Phone posting this week again so walls are unlikely. Going to keep up over the evenings where I can.

Hectic has apparently been reading bits of the thread. He townreads Molla and Dann while he scumreads Gobble. Fish/gobble was the top team he mentioned.

Hop 'hopglop' hop

[Hopkirk]

So yeah obviously I was town. Pretty fucking obviously.

[Hopkirk]

Don't lynch Molla, Ceph, Auro or dong.

[Hopkirk]

Someone look at fish interactions with my lynchpool of gobble/damn/cheeky in case he's doing that to end the day before I was finished. I can't now obviously.. Dann's whole team dynamic is really off right now in my eyes.and should be when we flip.

[Hopkirk]

If fish scum, he flips scum with one of my scumpool anyway imo.

[Hopkirk]

Hey, fish isn't technically in that pool.

Dann's team have been making a lot of reads on my. Eddie has claimed several times to think I'm a good town player so I don't get why dann is asking me when I've played with eddie. I'd look into that team's reads a bit more closely since I've raised several questions about them that are going unanswered otherwise. There's a good chance they're being legit, but I have some concerns the too

[Hopkirk]

Doing gobble tommorow would be very nice

[Hopkirk]

Hey Auro, can you reask the dozen questions I've asked people on the last few pages about their bad trajectories on me tomorrow instead of letting people ignore them thanks.

Cheeky I might take out of that pool on more reading. Fish I could easily see replacing them.

[Hopkirk]

In 100% of games where I've been lynched as town, the town has subsequently lost. Me and espy being lynched should really concern people about the gamestate.

[Hopkirk]

Hop 'hopping off' hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

Molla and Ceph are town and didn't even slightly make genuine attempt to try and read me. I'd recommend being more careful from here.

[Hopkirk]

Rereading cheeky and fish would both be nice. Not convinced either are scum but Molla, dong, Auro, Ceph can hopefully work it out.

Lynch gobbles.

Ooh, I could sign this post as hectic and nothing would go wrong.

Hopkirk 'hop' hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

It was nice playing with you, wish you were a little bit more active. See ya.

I wasn't expecting it to be this bad. Have been on/am still on a three week away job and realized my work laptop blocked mafiascum which really hurt my activity. Definitely disappointed in how I dropped off activity wise D2 and realistically should have subbed out. Also liked playing with you (and most of the playerlist, D1 was enjoyable) while I was though.

Hop 'hoppers' hop