Newbie 1979 | Good Jams | (Game Over)

[dsjstr]

I was hoping to get a reaction from the vote itself. Not just from you but from other players.

[dawoodle]

Spoiler:

Ok, I read your post, so no need to do that anymore.

I am willing to re-evaluate on dawoodle, let him live for another day. I do intend to move to either Billy or djstr now, surprisingly.

I still think that dawoodle's pretty scum, virtue of that terrible wall and his questions that aren't being followed through. This guy either has to start speaking more in the thread or he's gonna get lynched at some point, be it either by me or the town. Unless djstr is scum which would make dawoodle look really townie.

Dawoodle is no rookie, as he mentioned, he does have some IRL experience. I guess I liked his #174 and that was the pivotal moment for my switch in read, followed by ima's thought process. But, I do still have some form of reluctance from switching, maybe because it sucks being wrong, but also because his questions match NOTHING with his reads. He can ask the weirdest questions to iam and billy, and then post reasons for why he scum reads Luca (this was just an example). From my personal PoV (because I've caught people before based on this tell alone, which is not really a tell, but whatever), scum that are disengaged (that was when I pushed dawoodle and he sat at 3 votes for a long time) they still ask questions, but then their reads don't follow up on those questions. I can take the excerpt from that game to prove my point, as I can't really explain it properly in here, but hope you got the point. Using TMI, he can give easy reads on other people, but it's not about the reads he's making, it's about the questions he asks that DON'T match his reads at all. Which is a sign of TMI. You can't possible post one thing in the thread, probe into specific people (because you most likely scum read them) and then give reads that are good on other people. Which tells me that he probably wasn't focused on his questions at all and followed the thread state more clearly in his head to see where he can push easily. I can make a comparison by quoting his posts and his conclusions that have nothing to do with each other, which I most likely will.

Spoiler:

I made a step by step analysis in my notes that I can provide, but I think that it's just junk level as it was not really made to be posted, more of thought dumping.

First, when I said I have some IRL experience, I meant I played it in high school and college with friends. The last IRL game I played was years ago, but I always enjoy it so I decided to try this when I found it. I'm still trying to figure out how to play because as I said in my opening post, it's weird not seeing people's reactions.

I do not think asking Billy about meta (that was more from a newbie perspective of how useful it actually is because you said yours had changed) or ima why he asked about hammering are particularly weird when they follow from comments that were made earlier. As I said previously, "I tend to accept well thought out reasoning which you provided." If I accept an answer to my question, I don't feel the need to specifically call it out when I am talking about my opinions.

As for probing people, I am going to probe scummy behavior when I see it, even if it is from somebody I think is town because I am not confident in my ability to read people. And yes, I am paying attention to the entire thread. You cannot draw informed conclusions if you do not know what people are saying outside of your interactions with them. Do you disagree with any of the reasoning for my scum reads and if so, why?

[dawoodle]

I think we probably have all scum but 1 targeted right now..i am not quite sure how many scum is in this damn town.

Ima, can you explain your thought process here? I can think of a few explanations, but would like to hear yours.

Billy, how confident are you that the metas do not/have not changed from the games that you looked at?

Ima, #107, do you feel like you got any informative reactions from it?

djstr and luca aren't team mates.

Why?

Bumping this because it is a fair question considering that Luca had posted twice at this point.

What about that post indicates that they're not partners though?

So who are the scum for you, dawoodle?

I think at least one of Blatant and Billy are scum. Dsjstr is suspect, and Luca is null but leaning scum. I can go into my reasoning if anyone is interested.

The interaction around Billy's vote for Blatant was strange. The evolution of explanation for Billy's vote was suspect. On the other hand, since the first day, most of Blatant's posts have either been defensive or just general process. I have not seen what I would consider scum hunting from him and the aggressive push against Billy's vote is one piece of that.

For dsjstr, he put a vote on me to "get some activity" (#77) and in the day since, his only activity has been confirming that it was an L-2 vote (#79) and justifying his lack of posts by saying it was comparable to Ima's number of posts (#122). If he actually wanted some activity, I would expect him to post.

For luca, his lack of activity concerns me. As Billy pointed out, he was supposedly catching up in "a few hours" a day ago, and has been silent ever since. If he starts posting and interacting, I will reevaluate based on his behavior.

Most of these reads are made under the assumption that I am a villager. As a townie, the wolves should be happy that suspicion is on me and would avoid scumhunting for the easy mislynch. Regardless of whether I am town or not though, villagers should still be looking for the second scum which seems to be lacking.

Get my point? This guy had no read on Billy, asked him something about meta, then decided to make a read on him. Look at those questions and what he gets at with them.

Or rather, look at what's NOT there. Where's the conclusion he got from his questions? It's almost as if it's an entirely new approach and his questions weren't even there.

Questions are asked in order to SORT people. None of the questions dawoodle asked could have possibly lead him to those reads in the wall. Read the questions. That's literally every single question he asked up to that wall.

Scum have to fake trying to sort, and hence, they have to look like they are trying to solve. Key difference here.

Look like

they're trying to solve. How do you pretend trying to solve? By asking questions.

His questions don't lead to that read on Billy, therefore, they had no value in sorting anyone. Therefore, he has TMI, therefore, he's scum. You get the point.

Yeah, so actually, no, I'm not willing to re-evaluate. There's no way someone says "most of these reads are made under the assumption i am a villager. regardless of whether i am town or not..."

Seriously? A town would literally explode. This is way too reasonable to be town. Like, yeah, I get his points, but there's no way he's this objective and calm as a villager. He's not even voting anyone / pushing his reads. He's like "yeah so 1 scum in blatant / billy is where I'm at", good, push your reads.

I'm sorry but I just can't move my vote. I honestly think this is scum, scratch my previous post, I've seen this wall again and it's still bad.

His Billy read is saying "He's scum because...But actually he does have a point on Blatant, so I'll keep my vote on Blatant" ??????????

keep it simple, lynch dawoodle, if he flips scum then lynch billy. Occam's razor. Keep it simple.

if he's not scum, look into djstrs next.

I can justify where the questions came from and how they helped me understand the game/who I suspect as mafia. I'm not sure how best to format it, so here is just a list from the top.
1. Was asked to see Ima's thought process. It sounded townie and justified to me, so he wasn't in my scum list.
2. Billy threw out accusations against Blatant based on his opening in previous games. One of your earlier posts (#57) mentioned that your meta had changed. So I was trying to get a sense of whether Billy thought that looking at meta was actually a useful tool. He basically said "no" if you do not have experience playing with them which gave me what I was looking for.
3. I admit that I should have followed up on this to probe who Ima thought gave him village vibes. While this still does not address the direct topic of this post, it does show that I pay attention to the answers.
4/5. I was trying to decide who could possibly be a pair, but I am not experienced enough to pick up on things like you pointed out in your response. Why would I ask the follow up question for a direct answer if I was disengaged and just asking to ask and not looking at the response?

In response to your other points, just because I did not ask questions of Billy does not mean that I cannot make a read about him based on what has happened in the day since I asked a more mechanics question. The questions are useful to help me decide who I think is not scum just as much as they are to inform who I think is scum which then leads to my provided list.

Just because my play style is different than you think a town should be does not mean that I am mafia. I'm not exactly sure what pushing means because so far, it looks like voting and hoping they respond, but my vote is still on Blatant. I am not confident enough in my reads to actually move it to someone else. At this point, this will probably just give you more arrows in your quiver, but it's hard to push Blatant and Billy when Blatant hasn't posted for 2 days and Billy is out for replacement.

Do you not find yourself agreeing with some of the things that I say? If so, why do you keep your vote on me? Same thing with my evaluation of Blatant and Billy. I agree with what Billy said about Blatant's interactions (and you can ISO them yourself to see it to), but that doesn't mean that I am convinced that Billy is town either.

[dawoodle]

I already explained that I expressed it wrongly. I don’t actually believe that lol.

It’s actually easier to find town rather than scum. Villagers should almost always villager hunt.

I had more success hunting town and leaving wolves in a PoE than doing what I’m doing right now

Have you tried using PoE and does it lead you to the same conclusion on me?

[dawoodle]

I misread that. Never mind.

[dawoodle]

I was hoping to get a reaction from the vote itself. Not just from you but from other players.

What is your opinion of the reactions that you have gotten? Did it lead you to suspect anyone else? Did it have any effect on your opinion of me as mafia?

[dawoodle]

Luca, why did it take you being called out for inactivity in my scum list to start posting? I don't think I saw any excuse/explanation for disappearing for a day after saying you were going to catch up in a few hours.

[dsjstr]

I dont see it scumming to unvote in the middle of day 1. I do see it as scumming to vote someone to L-2 just to get them to talk some more then never unvoting after they do what the voter ask. You should unvote now if you dont see dawoodle as mafia.

how about you come up with real reasons why anyone else is scum... how about you start by telling me why dawoodle is scum? You are voting for him and i have already asked you this question with no answer coming from you. So far you have give 2 easy reactionary reads with no follow up probing of those people you gave those reads on.

He’s actually gonna get locked if dawoodle flips scum so I don’t want to focus that

I think your attention should be on the two wagons. Dawoodle has done nothing but ask me questions, his town read, and didn’t sort any of the other people.

Town look for scum, not town.

If he says otherwise, refer back to his wall where he gave the equivalent of 3 scum reads in proportion to 2 town reads.

Well if town look for scum, not town wouldnt that put dawoodle more on the town side considering he gave 3 scum reads opposed to 2 town reads.
Also dawoodle has not only asked you questions. He ask me questions and he addressed billy in an individual post not connected to you at all.
He has reacted alot to you, but i forgive that since you tunneled so hard in the first 100 post.

The reaction I got was that Spy was trying to protect you hard. These are just some examples, I chose those because he tried putting the idea of getting my vote off of you but even if I didn't include great evidence why I put my vote on you... why would he care if I was voting for you? The third one in particular I find strange because he is blatantly trying to defend you. I have come to the conclusion that you two are teaming.

[IMASPY]

And, by the way, me making a read before the 100 post mark doesn't change it's accuracy in any way. You don't need tons of information to find scum. Actually, it was demonstrated that you get more confused when presented with tons of information, rather than with a low amount of information. It helps you keep a clear head.

Scum lynches do exist on day one, town lynches are more likely on day one. But scum lynches also do exist.

Ima and literally everyone that's not voting dawoodle, what reasons do you actually have for defending dawoodle here? Anything deep / nuanced? If you call it a tunnel, prove me wrong and try to work with me. If the only reason you have for not voting him is "insomnia's read was made too early, no way it's scum" then lol you. Not even considering this option as a scum is faulty. Please let me know your concerns about my read, I think it's quite good.

Also, the inconsistency in dawoodle's reactions is also glaring. Remember when I first called him out on his first wall? Read his reaction there and his reaction in this wall and see the difference. He's calming himself down and is trying not to flail. It's just not town consistency.

Again, if your reason for not voting dawoodle is because it was a post-whatever-under-100-read then you're not having an actual town read, you're just doubting my capabilities. If you're doubting them, then read him for yourself and debate with me. Why is he town???

Im not clearing dawoodle as town. Infact i gave a list of my sus list and stated i see him as more sus than you. However, i havent see anything from him that has made me think he is scum totally.

He asked me a question on post #87 and after i answered that he gave me a follow up question in post #149. I am in no way saying that makes him town but you are giving him less credit for his post than i am.

weird how you ignore my very first sentence in this post when you were setting up your quotes

[dawoodle]

Im starting to see my post are not nearly as long as others so far. Id like to give me sus list from least(top) to most(bot).

Billy Pilgrim
Iconeum
insomnia
dawoodle
Poyzin
Blatant Scum
Luca Blight
dsjstr

Could you explain your reasoning for this list? The most obvious one is why Billy is at the top while several people, myself included, have pointed out some of his scummy posts. Is your reasoning for the ones near the bottom similar to mine or do you have further insights you would like to add?

[dawoodle]

Luca, why did it take you being called out for inactivity in my scum list to start posting? I don't think I saw any excuse/explanation for disappearing for a day after saying you were going to catch up in a few hours.

This is more leading than I should have asked. I should have just asked why it took a day to start posting after you posted that you found your phone instead of tying it to my posted scum list.

[IMASPY]

Im starting to see my post are not nearly as long as others so far. Id like to give me sus list from least(top) to most(bot).

Billy Pilgrim
Iconeum
insomnia
dawoodle
Poyzin
Blatant Scum
Luca Blight
dsjstr

Could you explain your reasoning for this list? The most obvious one is why Billy is at the top while several people, myself included, have pointed out some of his scummy posts. Is your reasoning for the ones near the bottom similar to mine or do you have further insights you would like to add?

Sure, I read Billy Pilgrim as a town late to the party trying to figure everything out.
Iconeum insomnia and dawoodle were all basically at the same sus level for me at the time. You happened to be at the bottom because of insomnias post about you.
Poyzin has gone lower on my list since this post, however, at the time nor he, luca, or blatant scum had posted enough townie content for me to even consider them as town.
dsjstr has been my scum read from the moment i voted him. I did not believe totally at the time i posted the list that he was mafia but now i do. This does not mean im closed off from talking to dsjstr as i have demonstrated since that post.

Luca has gained the most townie rep from me since that post but we was second from the bottom so it wasnt hard for him to move up in my rankings.

[dawoodle]

Im starting to see my post are not nearly as long as others so far. Id like to give me sus list from least(top) to most(bot).

Billy Pilgrim
Iconeum
insomnia
dawoodle
Poyzin
Blatant Scum
Luca Blight
dsjstr

Could you explain your reasoning for this list? The most obvious one is why Billy is at the top while several people, myself included, have pointed out some of his scummy posts. Is your reasoning for the ones near the bottom similar to mine or do you have further insights you would like to add?

Sure, I read Billy Pilgrim as a town late to the party trying to figure everything out.
Iconeum insomnia and dawoodle were all basically at the same sus level for me at the time. You happened to be at the bottom because of insomnias post about you.
Poyzin has gone lower on my list since this post, however, at the time nor he, luca, or blatant scum had posted enough townie content for me to even consider them as town.
dsjstr has been my scum read from the moment i voted him. I did not believe totally at the time i posted the list that he was mafia but now i do. This does not mean im closed off from talking to dsjstr as i have demonstrated since that post.

Luca has gained the most townie rep from me since that post but we was second from the bottom so it wasnt hard for him to move up in my rankings.

What about Billy's posting made you think he was town? I'm trying to figure out what you saw in his posting that I did not.

[dawoodle]

Am I correct in assuming that Poyzin dropped because he defended dsjstr or was there something else that bothered you?

[IMASPY]

To Billy Pilgrim about his opening post #81. I thought meta gaming like pulling from previous games was frowned upon in this set up?

As you can see i did make notice of his first post. I thought it was scummy to rely on meta data from previous games. However, not scummy as he was mafia, scummy as in poor sportsmanship.

Once i was told meta gaming is accepted in this forum i applied some meta gaming to this game myself.

My meta game read is someone is only gonna need a replacement if they are town. I have not brought this up nor will i be voting totally based on this. But from my perspective people only need a replacement because they are town and was hoping to be mafia. Luca came into this game with knowledge he was gonna be afk for most of the time, but instead of getting a replacement he just let people know about the afk. Partly why luca was so low on my list from the start because i figured going afk is an easy way for mafia to avoid being probed.

[IMASPY]

Am I correct in assuming that Poyzin dropped because he defended dsjstr or was there something else that bothered you?

Yes the dynamic between dsjstr and poyzin has part to do with it. Along with the lack of townie content provided by both of them. It took me voting on dsjstr to get some serious post out of him, and all of sudden poyzin comes out of smoke to defend dsjstr. Along with FoS on me early for a post that i made about hammering when no one was even L-2 nor had i put a vote in.

[IMASPY]

To Billy Pilgrim about his opening post #81. I thought meta gaming like pulling from previous games was frowned upon in this set up?

As you can see i did make notice of his first post. I thought it was scummy to rely on meta data from previous games. However, not scummy as he was mafia, scummy as in poor sportsmanship.

Once i was told meta gaming is accepted in this forum i applied some meta gaming to this game myself.

My meta game read is someone is only gonna need a replacement if they are town. I have not brought this up nor will i be voting totally based on this. But from my perspective people only need a replacement because they are town and was hoping to be mafia. Luca came into this game with knowledge he was gonna be afk for most of the time, but instead of getting a replacement he just let people know about the afk. Partly why luca was so low on my list from the start because i figured going afk is an easy way for mafia to avoid being probed.

The reason i would not use this meta data is because this is my first game in any type of mafia on a forum. I simply do not have enough experience to draw conclusions based on this type of meta data.

[dawoodle]

I don't see anything besides your meta analysis that supports Billy as town, so why is Iconeum lower than Billy?

As an important aside, meta should be based on actual games, not on what you think people will do based on confirming. I opened several recent games and most of the ones that had replacements included scum that replaced out during the first game day. Although there was only one game where mafia did not post at all (indicating that they did not confirm), I did not see any indication that mafia were less likely to sub out.

[Poyzin]

I am thoroughly re-reading the messages from #258. If I don't get to somebody's reply between the time that this reply is posted and the time that I'm done replying to past messages, then please don't worry; I'm not ignoring you, I just would like to read the last couple pages in chronological order.

So dsjstr i will give you one more chance to defend yourself. Why are you still voting for dawoodle after you voted him to get information out of him? What has dawoodle done or said to convince you he is mafia?

Who are you to be the judge, jury, and executioner? I’m sorry that I don’t have all of the relevant quotes, but you asked dsjstr to defend himself, and then after he does, you decide it isn’t sufficient so you revote. Why would you unvote if you only planned on putting your vote back into dsjstr? I know that you could easily say “I wouldn’t have put my vote back I liked his defense” but that clearly isn’t the case based on this quote. Your vote isn’t worth more than any of the other players, and I’m sure that you didn’t need to unvote to make your point. You really just wanted to leverage your voting power, which as I stated doesn’t account for much.

Actually the reason i revoted is the same reason im still grilling him. I simply asked him to give a reason why he is voting for dawoodle still after pointing out that his L-2 vote on page 4 was scummy. He has dodged it 2 times so far and i have justed asked him a 3rd time. Its unfair for you to dismiss the possibility that i would have not revoted him if he answered my question.

This was not my point. While I truly don't believe that you intended to keep your vote off of dsjstr after your unvote, there is no evidence to say so. After all, every cause has an effect, and I cannot see into your head to determine what options were considered and what was not. It is just my opinion that you had no intention of sparing dsjstr, as it would be impossible for me to know the truth beyond speculation.

However, the evidence that I DO have is this: you DID unvote before you placed your revote. I cannot find a comprehensible reason for doing so, other than to assert your voting power over dsjstr, which isn't worth more than anybody else's. Do you have an explanation for this action?

[Poyzin]

Spoiler:

I was liking daw's intro but his wall makes me shake my previous town lean on him. I think he TMI'd half the playerlist with that post, including me. I think his point about me distinguishing players to look for agendas is a TMI read. I just asked Poyzin a question about his experience because he mentioned he was not new. I was trying to evaluate how to read him based on his experience. I think this is adding unnecessary analysis with tons of logic leaps to conclude a town read on me. He's also attempting to sow doubt in my read because ima was sheeping me. I'm aware he did. I wasn't oblivious to this, but he seems too chill about it and I don't think it's agenda-y. Therefore, I didn't think it needed to be addressed, as I don't see any agenda in that yet. If he'll disagree with something, he'll say so. He probably knows he's gonna have to produce content of his own and most likely will anyway. He's not new.

He's posturing for a set up on either Blatant or Poyzin from that wall. He also said Poyzin seemed innocent for him at first, but then he's accusing Blatant for accepting Poyzin as town, which is illogical and reads as a contrived read to set the pace at a Blatant - Poyzin brawl on day one. That's his intention. It reflects this from "I'd like to see more interaction from them" specifically.

His read on Luca also doesn't make sense, if it was helpful for you, why doesn't it contribute in some way?

VOTE: dawoodle

In all honesty, if this is mafia, I'd be 90% sure that Blatant and Poyzin are both town cleared. So is Ima.

Blatant - Has not given much to go off of, but did seem to immediately accept Poyzin as town rather than taking it as a post to view future responses through. I would like to see more interaction from them though.

I would like to see the post where I am claiming that Pyzin is town.

Exactly what I’m trying to convey. He has the information that we’re town, so he looks for things that can look compelling for clearing us and therefore showing he has thoughtful reads, but it just proves that he has TMI on us because there’s nothing that suggests a person’s intent with a post like “How many months have you been playing mafia for?”

The progression on a read is basically non-existent and that reads list is probably made only to give a pretext for setting up the playground for Blatant and Pyzin to play in. It would be weird only to say “These 2 are probably scum and should confront more”.

I am confident about this read on daw because that’s exactly how I play as scum.

I think that whole wall post’s intention was to prepare in advance for potential wagons on Blatant and Pyzin. The other reads are very carelessly given or are mainly null reads.

Looks scummy but town do scummy things anyway. He couldn’t even hammer because there’s not enough votes on anyone.

Right now I’m focused on daw though, he definitely has faulty assumptions that can be made only if he has our roles. If he’s town then he’s doing reads for no reason and is trying to match things already supposing that we’re town, which is bad.

But right now I’m tempted to say he’s probably scum. A town wouldn’t assume stuff from posts, they want concrete evidence.

Billy’s entrance is not good. Meh.

Billy - daw would be too simple though..

I still think daw is scum and should be pushed, for the record.

I probably won’t post anything until I either change my read on daw or billy starts doing townie stuff. Or daw.

That's my reasoning and I'm not telling you this in order to get you to change your vote. If you think I am scum still than vote for me that is your choice and only your choice to make.

So I understand that you stated that you wouldn't be much help in reads, but do you have any other opinion on this besides echoing insomnia? If that is the case, that doesn't really do much in terms of wanting to contribute, but rather has you serve as a +1 buddy. There isn't anything wrong with agreeing with somebody, but do you have any interpretations of dawoodle of your own, or are they word-for-word with insomnia's?

If you already answered this, please ignore this message.

[Poyzin]

The only thing I didn’t like about djstr is that he said he doesn’t trust SE’s but he’s following the lead of an SE right now, as well as his reasoning. But he did mention he town reads me, despite knowing I’m an SE.

Dsjstr ALSO said in post #229 that "[he] still believe that Luca is town even though [he] just said [he doesn't] trust SE's". Very strange to say the least, given that Blatant Scum is the only other SE.

Speaking of which, can we seriously get a prod on Blatant scum? It's been over two days and I'm itching for more information on that end.

[Poyzin]

So dsjstr i will give you one more chance to defend yourself. Why are you still voting for dawoodle after you voted him to get information out of him? What has dawoodle done or said to convince you he is mafia?

Who are you to be the judge, jury, and executioner? I’m sorry that I don’t have all of the relevant quotes, but you asked dsjstr to defend himself, and then after he does, you decide it isn’t sufficient so you revote. Why would you unvote if you only planned on putting your vote back into dsjstr? I know that you could easily say “I wouldn’t have put my vote back I liked his defense” but that clearly isn’t the case based on this quote. Your vote isn’t worth more than any of the other players, and I’m sure that you didn’t need to unvote to make your point. You really just wanted to leverage your voting power, which as I stated doesn’t account for much.

\

I am all three in this game.... that is exactly what this game is... all townies are all three of those things. I have already replied to this post, but I was looking through poyzins post and i forgot to make this point the first time.

This is definitely just a difference in mafia philosophies, so I will politely have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, one player CANNOT be the judge, the jury, and the executioner. Not you, and definitely not me either. If this were the case, the whole game would be dictated by a decuple voter who instantly lynches on the spot. This is how I see things in this regard:

Town:

Each player is a judge. It is up to them to view a holistic interpretation of the game and create their own opinions over who they believe to be scum. They

judge

the information available in the topic, and make a decision that is solely theirs. People can influence this opinion, but they have the opportunity to vote for whoever they choose.

The town as a whole is the jury. While the information is available to the judges to postulate over, the judges in turn make posts of their own, where they advocate for their beliefs. These posts are read by everyone in the town, as the mass of the town makes up the

jury

. They discuss possibilities with other players and work together to come up with a "rough" consensus determined by majority vote, even if the minority of the jury adamantly disagrees. While the individuals create their own opinions, the whole town makes a final judicial system to send to the executioner.

For this scenario, the executioner is just the mod. They are the only source of truth in the game, as there is a guaranteed guilty party among the jurors. It is only the flips revealed by the mod that can truly determine whether the jury had made the correct decision.


In the end, that is merely my philosophy, and you are free to disagree with it. I do admit fault as well, because this wasn't the appropriate analogy to use, even though the implications I presented are applicable. I was just angry that you used your vote as a bargain device. If I were dsjstr, I wouldn't give two cents about whether YOU voted for them or not. In the end, it's up to the majority to make a decision, and not you alone. I did not like the threatening tone that you used, because the threat's consequences were not worth the trouble that you made it out to be.

[Poyzin]

Luca has gained the most townie rep from me since that post but we was second from the bottom so it wasnt hard for him to move up in my rankings.

Actually, it WOULD be hard for Luca to gain the most townie points. Luca was your second highest scumread at the time you originally posted that list, so it would seem that you had some conviction to put him there. This is clear when you talk about your confidence in your dsjstr scumread, which has been unwavering to put it in different words. You even say that it is easy for players near the bottom to move up, yet that doesn't seem to be the case for dsjstr, who you are committed to lynching. To finish the thought, it would be easiest for null reads to shift around, as you wouldn't have much conviction about their placement.

Once again, I'm just postulating, but I'm pretty sure Luca moved up only because you agreed on dsjstr "definitely" being scum. While I agree that this is a good possibility, as I do heavily sus dsjstr, I am even more suspicious of you because of your use of underhanded tactics to push the scum!Dsjstr envelope that I have previously described. I have high confidence that at least one of the two of you are scum. If you are scum, I'd say dsjstr is cleared. (And vice versa for that matter, because I can't picture any scenario where the two of you are mafioso based on both of your demonstrated convictions throughout the last few pages).

VOTE: IMASPY

Don't say that I'm defending dsjstr; I'm not. I'm just trying to find flaws in the argument for dsjstr. There is a large difference, as the former implies that he's a townread for me; he's not.

[Poyzin]

Town:

Each player is a judge. It is up to them to view a holistic interpretation of the game and create their own opinions over who they believe to be scum. They judge the information available in the topic, and make a decision that is solely theirs. People can influence this opinion, but they have the opportunity to vote for whoever they choose.

The town as a whole is the jury. While the information is available to the judges to postulate over, the judges in turn make posts of their own, where they advocate for their beliefs. These posts are read by everyone in the town, as the mass of the town makes up the jury. They discuss possibilities with other players and work together to come up with a "rough" consensus determined by majority vote, even if the minority of the jury adamantly disagrees. While the individuals create their own opinions, the whole town makes a final judicial system to send to the executioner.

For this scenario, the executioner is just the mod. They are the only source of truth in the game, as there is a guaranteed guilty party among the jurors. It is only the flips revealed by the mod that can truly determine whether the jury had made the correct decision.

I realized that I never finished this philosophy, even though I suggested it with the "Town:" Here is how this scenario would look like for the mafia.


Mafia:

On the contrary, the mafia WOULD be the judge, jury, and executioner at night. Without any additional input, the mafia is able to unilaterally decide who they want to kill, agree on a target, and complete the night-kill. While Ima and I may disagree on this belief, it must be accounted for that the reason that we do disagree is that we have a different alignments, and would naturally see the game differently.

[IMASPY]

I am thoroughly re-reading the messages from #258. If I don't get to somebody's reply between the time that this reply is posted and the time that I'm done replying to past messages, then please don't worry; I'm not ignoring you, I just would like to read the last couple pages in chronological order.

So dsjstr i will give you one more chance to defend yourself. Why are you still voting for dawoodle after you voted him to get information out of him? What has dawoodle done or said to convince you he is mafia?

Who are you to be the judge, jury, and executioner? I’m sorry that I don’t have all of the relevant quotes, but you asked dsjstr to defend himself, and then after he does, you decide it isn’t sufficient so you revote. Why would you unvote if you only planned on putting your vote back into dsjstr? I know that you could easily say “I wouldn’t have put my vote back I liked his defense” but that clearly isn’t the case based on this quote. Your vote isn’t worth more than any of the other players, and I’m sure that you didn’t need to unvote to make your point. You really just wanted to leverage your voting power, which as I stated doesn’t account for much.

Actually the reason i revoted is the same reason im still grilling him. I simply asked him to give a reason why he is voting for dawoodle still after pointing out that his L-2 vote on page 4 was scummy. He has dodged it 2 times so far and i have justed asked him a 3rd time. Its unfair for you to dismiss the possibility that i would have not revoted him if he answered my question.

This was not my point. While I truly don't believe that you intended to keep your vote off of dsjstr after your unvote, there is no evidence to say so. After all, every cause has an effect, and I cannot see into your head to determine what options were considered and what was not. It is just my opinion that you had no intention of sparing dsjstr, as it would be impossible for me to know the truth beyond speculation.

However, the evidence that I DO have is this: you DID unvote before you placed your revote. I cannot find a comprehensible reason for doing so, other than to assert your voting power over dsjstr, which isn't worth more than anybody else's. Do you have an explanation for this action?

Yes i dont have a reason for unvoting at that moment. You were on him from RVS and i was forced to believe your vote was not true. I was voting dsjstr in order to have him be more active since my previous attempt was responded with filler. When luca seen the scumread that i seen and voted for dsjstr. I did not want him to be on L-2 because I wasnt convinced either of you were mafia at the time. So that mean two mafia could have came around and double voted dsjstr if i was wrong about him. I was truely attempting to give dsjstr another chance to become more active and do something i seen as townie. From what i see to me he is mafia or a bad townie. I have no better read than that. Im not gonna kill someone else that i do not see as guilty.