Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps [Game over!]

[GuiltyLion]

sorry you didn't say "extreme" and I added that myself, should not have been quoted like that, but point stands

[northsidegal]

Votecount 1.14

Target	Wagon
Allomancer (3)	nomnomnom (211), The Limit Does Not Exist (213), GuiltyLion (229)
Eve (3)	Auro (330), BBmolla (354), acryon (378)
acryon (1)	Allomancer (215)
BBmolla (1)	Eve (361)
Not Voting (3)	SausasaurusRex (219), skitter30 (231), Karnage (299)

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-03 00:18:59).

[Allomancer]

he feels really earnest with the "let's not Lynch anyone yet guys" and "TLDNE misrepped me and is certain mafia" takes. There's no self-consciousness in his ISO at all. I don't agree with most if not all of what he's said but I do feel that he believes in it.

"Let's not lynch anyone yet" seems like a very easily faked towntell. It felt like an easy way to make a noncontroversial statement by agreeing with the sentiment of the town, but also not take any responsibility for the wagon. And I view the second thing as scum trying to come up with an easy excuse to push somebody.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think if it was a mislynch scum would be hopping on that wagon by now

Not sure I'd recommend using this logic on D1 of a 9:2 game. (Or ever, really, but especially not now.)

-Smart

[GuiltyLion]

I think if it was a mislynch scum would be hopping on that wagon by now

Not sure I'd recommend using this logic on D1 of a 9:2 game. (Or ever, really, but especially not now.)

-Smart

meh, myself and two of my strongest townreads are on the wagon. Eve was voting it and actually

unvoted

and still hasn't voted back despite being the main counter wagon. If scum benefit from this lynch I don't see it, IMO it is the best possible place for a vote right now.

[GuiltyLion]

"Let's not lynch anyone yet" seems like a very easily faked towntell. It felt like an easy way to make a noncontroversial statement by agreeing with the sentiment of the town, but also not take any responsibility for the wagon. And I view the second thing as scum trying to come up with an easy excuse to push somebody.

I'm townreading Sausausaurus less for the content of what they've said and more for the conviction he has while saying it.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think if it was a mislynch scum would be hopping on that wagon by now

Not sure I'd recommend using this logic on D1 of a 9:2 game. (Or ever, really, but especially not now.)

-Smart

meh, myself and two of my strongest townreads are on the wagon. Eve was voting it and actually

unvoted

and still hasn't voted back despite being the main counter wagon. If scum benefit from this lynch I don't see it, IMO it is the best possible place for a vote right now.

?? Your 524 is referring to the bbmolla wagon. This post doesn't make any sense. No one is on that wagon except Eve.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Oh sorry I misread again... 524 was TO bbmolla ABOUT the allomancer wagon. Please ignore me.

- Smarter

[Eve]

VOTE: Allomancer

hi do people need a reads list from me

[Eve]

Limit
acryon
nomnomnom
Rex
Karnage
skitter
BBmolla
Auro
Allomancer

i like nonom now because of how she was defending me and then went to metacheck me

Auro still feels really driven by agendas he needs to take a walk once in a while

[Auro]

I am definitely driven by an agenda.

[Auro]

i'm not following, why does posting independently indicate that they're townie here?
are you arguing that ss would be trying to coordinate their thoughts / minimize dissonance as scum here because he likes to plan things, and that if he were scum he would not be ok with Lilith posting so freely ? otherwise i'm not sure i'm understanding what you're trying to say

I'm saying exactly this. I noticed when I was questioning them on strategy talk. Both Smart and Smarter were online, responded giving the true answer independently at the same time; that's one instance I'd definitely think they would think to talk to each other about first if scum.

They have consistently kept that up.

[Auro]

re:Auro - like I mentioned the other day, he's been kinda overfixated on me, and I'm also skeptical of how he seems totally uninterested in pressuring/voting Allomancer.

I don't like his Eve push.

I can imagine these behaviors serving a scum-agenda so he's not in my towncore, but it's also not really enough to make me want to push him and I do think he'd be a big asset if town and we're just on different wavelengths this game.

Bolded is of interest.
I've skimmed your ISO and I don't find any reasons for Eve to be in your prob-town tier, can you explain that?
What about my Eve push don't you like?

I'm hoping you have something more than a gamestate/pre-flip ("She voted Allo so prob-town!") argument to justify that townread

[Eve]

so much for "city that never sleeps" huh

the game has become dead destroyer of worlds

[GuiltyLion]

I've skimmed your ISO and I don't find any reasons for Eve to be in your prob-town tier, can you explain that?
What about my Eve push don't you like?

I think the early traffic analyst claim/joke is more likely to come from town, yes I know we've since covered "Eve is bold as scum" but in my mind that's still more often town than not

Dismiss the Allo vote all you want but IMO identifying the same things I saw as potentially scum-indicative is a sign of town mindset

I also liked the push on you/BBMolla for focusing on clearing yourself/other slots more than potentially guilting a scum. I had actually thought about this myself when you were asking if I would be fine off-wagon - the best case scenario FMPOV is me on-wagon - but ultimately decided that negative repercussions of me insisting to be on wagon prob wouldn't really be a benefit to town and end of the day I care much more about agreeing with the lynch itself than deciding who is on/off

I dislike your push because I really don't see any scum agenda/motivation to Eve's play? And you haven't bothered to make a case for it either:

Simple reasoning for Eve vote: I can't sort her playstyle as I don't find it very transparent, and since I don't find her pro-town either, she's a perfectly good lynch.

I disagree that she's not not pro-town, I think she's made good votes/pushes, and especially stands in contrast to Allo who is not only not pro-town, but also actively scummy in a way I don't see at all from Eve.

Further, you've spent what feels like a loooottt of energy engaging with what you consider 'hard to read/sort' slots that could be useful as town, but then basically say you're fine with Eve being lynched since you think she isn't useful. It's like instead of solving the question of who is town and who is scum, you're more interested in solving the question of 'who can benefit town if town' vs who can't regardless of alignment, and I think that's a bad way to form reads and an easy way to lead to mislynches.

[GuiltyLion]

Auro what are your thoughts on skitter's reply to your defense of TLDNE and the general TLDNE vs skit situation on the last page? I think if you are town then skitter's scum equity goes wayyyy up and curious to see if you share my feelings there.

[GuiltyLion]

other random take, Molla's engagement with the Allo wagon doesn't feel like scum-scum. I think if Allo is scum then Molla is town, and vice versa.

[GuiltyLion]

sorry I just reread that post and realize it's kinda ambiguous - I don't mean to imply that if Allo is town than Molla is scum -> that may be possible but it also could be TvT. I only mean that a scumflip from one should clear the other.

[Auro]

Further, you've spent what feels like a loooottt of energy engaging with what you consider 'hard to read/sort' slots that could be useful as town, but then basically say you're fine with Eve being lynched since you think she isn't useful. It's like

instead of solving the question of who is town and who is scum, you're more interested in solving the question of 'who can benefit town if town'

vs who can't regardless of alignment, and I think that's a bad way to form reads and an easy way to lead to mislynches.

Rex, I can guarantee you 100% that the slot you're pushing is town.

I think Crayon can enter the townbloc; note that he is attacking me after I basically began to chainsaw-attacked GuiltyLion over GL's push on him.

saying "game should honestly go pretty fast" is something I definitely cannot imagine scum!Nom saying to Skitter.

Karnage's reasoning feels genuine.

The bolded red part makes a lot of sense if you only look at what I said about Skitter not being a D1 lynch, in isolation. But then you must have noticed I was throwing townreads and strengthening them on multiple slots, and actually stated that that was the strategy I was going for this game in 315 . So either now you have to argue that the top-down way of forming reads is a bad way to form reads especially in a setup where getting the right townbloc can screw scum over, or this attack is empty air.

---

I also liked the push on you/BBMolla for focusing on clearing yourself/other slots more than potentially guilting a scum.

Again, makes a lot of sense if you look at Molla's 360 in isolation where he offers a reason for me being fine being in the cop bloc... and ignoring literally every other post in his ISO where he's scumhunting.
Prove it. Prove that Molla is excessively focusing on clearing himself.

---

Dismiss the Allo vote all you want but IMO identifying the same things I saw as potentially scum-indicative is a sign of town mindset

Allo said that there existing a mech reason to be in the wagon alleviates some initial concerns he had from her, but she seems to be just shitposting, and he needs to see more content.
Eve's reasoning was that Allo should have "obviously" read her RVS post as a shitpost when he recognized that other posts of hers are shitposts, and thus shouldn't even have pushed her for it.
Your ISO does not show you finding this scum-indicative: so do you? You think it's a valid attack?
One instance of identifying something as scum-indicative in common with you is enough to get them into prob-town territory, is it?

---

If you could re-summarize the case on Allomancer, I would appreciate it. I think many of the things you find scummy in his posts are not ones I do; and I am in part vaguely informed by past experience with Allo.
Since you like having all evidence, I would suggest you read other towngames of his.
Overall, I am OK with whoever is lynched as long as the townbloc has consensus on it; but at this point I strongly advocate Eve to be in the cop-bloc if not the lynch.

---

I think Skitter is town. However, not even close to how much I would have to promote her to the townbloc.
She agrees with you about Eve being mislynch bait. Do you not see town equity from that, as similar mindsets about things seems to be a strong +town indicator for you?
Skitter didn't respond to my case for 1/0. I see that as a sign of acceptance. What should I be reading into? If scum trying to legitimately push 1/0 she'd probably respond to that.
Her other attacks on Smart regarding his shading of my proposed strategy are legitimate, to my eyes.

---

[BBmolla]

busy today, back tomorrow

[GuiltyLion]

bear with me as it's Saturday night and I'm a little inebriated/bleary so probably some grammar mistakes in advance but I wanna try to give you a response

The bolded red part makes a lot of sense if you only look at what I said about Skitter not being a D1 lynch, in isolation. But then you must have noticed I was throwing townreads and strengthening them on multiple slots, and actually stated that that was the strategy I was going for this game in 315 . So either now you have to argue that the top-down way of forming reads is a bad way to form reads especially in a setup where getting the right townbloc can screw scum over, or this attack is empty air.

I do think it's fair to point out that you are honing in on townreads and I have largely agreed with the townbloc you're forming which is why I can sometimes feel you may be town here. I think where I'm concerned is of the remaining pool outside the townbloc, we can't seem to see eye to eye on who is pro/anti town and who makes for a good wagon. I don't really grok at all why you don't see Allo as worthy of suspicion other than previous experience with his town meta, and I'm picking up townvibes from Eve that I'm confused you're not seeing.

I don't think I'm -as concerned- as you with certain reads or takes because I think 11-2 feels townsided here and naturally a couple of flips will help in sorting the hard-to-read slots, but I'm wary that you feel so insistent on pressuring me at every turn and I don't always understand how it's helping you potentially see me as town.

Again, makes a lot of sense if you look at Molla's 360 in isolation where he offers a reason for me being fine being in the cop bloc... and ignoring literally every other post in his ISO where he's scumhunting.
Prove it. Prove that Molla is excessively focusing on clearing himself.

I'm not saying Molla is excessively focused on clearing himself, I said rather that I liked Eve pressuring him on that particular line cause I thought it could be an odd take from town. I have liked some of Molla's other angles and while he's not clear town to me he's not also someone I'm itching to push at the moment. This feels like you're putting a stronger argument into my mouth that I never made, especially since I had just also stated that I don't think Allo/Molla as a team makes sense.

Dismiss the Allo vote all you want but IMO identifying the same things I saw as potentially scum-indicative is a sign of town mindset

Allo said that there existing a mech reason to be in the wagon alleviates some initial concerns he had from her, but she seems to be just shitposting, and he needs to see more content.
Eve's reasoning was that Allo should have "obviously" read her RVS post as a shitpost when he recognized that other posts of hers are shitposts, and thus shouldn't even have pushed her for it.
Your ISO does not show you finding this scum-indicative: so do you? You think it's a valid attack?
One instance of identifying something as scum-indicative in common with you is enough to get them into prob-town territory, is it?

I'm not really following your interpretation here. I thought Eve's reasoning was referring to only the particular claimpost, not the RVS post? Unless you are referring to that claimpost as the RVS post?

My general understanding of Eve's point was - and I'm definitely adding some of my own interpretation here - Allo acknowledges that she may have reason to want to be on wagons as town, but also acknowledges that she was shitposting, which means he shouldn't really read into it either way, whereas in reality he was actually trying to read into it both ways. I'm not seeing what you're seeing where it refers to a sum of multiple posts.

And yeah, I kinda have light standards for prob-town at this stage because it's D1 and because objectively the vast majority of players are town. I find I have best read results when I search for the lines of reasoning that stand out as evidently absent of most reasonable interpretations for towniness, and use those to influence the confidence in my scumreads, and try to give players the benefit of the doubt as much as possible.

If you could re-summarize the case on Allomancer, I would appreciate it. I think many of the things you find scummy in his posts are not ones I do; and I am in part vaguely informed by past experience with Allo.
Since you like having all evidence, I would suggest you read other towngames of his.
Overall, I am OK with whoever is lynched as long as the townbloc has consensus on it; but at this point I strongly advocate Eve to be in the cop-bloc if not the lynch.

Sure, my points on Allomancer:
- I really don't think it's made a lot of game advancing reads or pushes. The ISO gives me the impression of occasional commentary to blend in, rather than genuine beliefs it has that it wants to pursue.
- The strongest point for this is how he shaded acryon in 204 and unvoted in 205, but doesn't vote anywhere. Then it gets called out for being passive and not really engaging in tangible reads, and only then it votes in 215. That reads to me like appeasement and not like someone making a bonafide attempt to get more information from the game.
- Even now, sitting as a lead wagon with us inching ever closer to deadline, it's not really engaging with its wagon and is going so far to question votes on the counterwagon. I have no sense that I truly feel who Allomancer would like to flip by the end of today, and what it's doing to get there. It pushes back on my Sausaurus townread - why? Does it think Saus is scum? If so, why not actually

push/i] that?

If we flip Allo, I'm fine with Eve not being in the cop bloc, and if Allo flips town then clearly I am misreading parts of the gamestate and would be absolutely willing to re-evaluate or cop her. That's part of why she's prob-town: my most confident townreads I don't think would change in my eyes solely on an Allo townflip.

I think Skitter is town. However, not even close to how much I would have to promote her to the townbloc.
She agrees with you about Eve being mislynch bait. Do you not see town equity from that, as similar mindsets about things seems to be a strong +town indicator for you?
Skitter didn't respond to my case for 1/0. I see that as a sign of acceptance. What should I be reading into? If scum trying to legitimately push 1/0 she'd probably respond to that.
Her other attacks on Smart regarding his shading of my proposed strategy are legitimate, to my eyes.

Yeah I mean I can see that. I feel some mixed feelings about Skitter too. I don't think her attacks on Smart are legitimate - especially not if she has any history with Smart - and I feel the pushback on the way TLDNE looked at Saus is really opportunistic and not giving TLDNE any benefit of the doubt at all, esp given that Skit even mirrored some of those same thoughts previously.

[GuiltyLion]

sorry there are pronoun mistakes in many places in that post above, I apologize Allo, I should have proofread that more and I'll try to be a more careful in the future

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Auro, you didn't mention Skitter's push on us regarding the Sausasaurus rex post at all. What were your thoughts on that?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

sorry there are pronoun mistakes in many places in that post above, I apologize Allo, I should have proofread that more and I'll try to be a more careful in the future

I think this should read "Auro," not "Allo"

catching up on posts

- Smarter

[northsidegal]

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