Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps [Game over!]

[Karnage]

apologies. i'll be back later to get caught up.

allo is likely town imo

[Eve]

but why sir karnage

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@514:

Okay, cool, so she didn't catch up in thread with your clarification on the "strawman" when she made that point... ok? So?
Like you think as scum she reads your clarification and goes "oh lulz let me attack them for it anyway"?

Saying the same things as you did later does not mean she can't point out a specific point of yours against Rex as a strawman.

You do realize that she was making posts as she caught up, right? Look at the sequencing of posts and her progression on Rex there - I thought that much was obvious?

Yes, she points out a post from Rex as SvS-y and what not, attacks your attacks on him because they feel disingenuous to her, then progresses to a nullish read on Rex - I frankly don't see the problem here. It's just a thought process? Perhaps if you read it under that light, you will see that her posts are consistent with updating beliefs on catching up, instead of looking for consistency as a single belief state as a whole.

I don’t see any transparency behind how she started at “Rex’s post is scummy and here’s why” and “Rex’s post is fine and Smarter is disingenuous for having the same reaction to that post that she herself did.” It feels like a contrived progression on us and I think town is more likely to react favorably to someone showing a similar thought process to them instead of attacking said thought process. On top of that it feels like she’s more interested in telling everyone that we’re misrepping than engaging with us and trying to understand our thought process if in fact she thinks we are being disingenuous, like she’s just decided that we’re scum and yet doesn’t vote us or further engage to solidify that read.

Frankly, I don’t think I was misrepping at all; if you believe I was misrepping, then so was she because she posted the same 3 points that I did; and her calling us disingenuous and misrepping is in fact a misrepresentation itself of my actual progression on Sausasaurus Rex.

- Smarter

[Auro]

Agreeing with the conclusion doesn't mean you can't attack the process

[Auro]

Also I don't think you understand what she was saying.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding things, I dunno. Maybe let's just have her respond.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Which part of our process do you think she is calling disingenuous?

It seems to me like the “strawmanning” part was the only reason for calling us disingenuous in the first place and that is the basis for calling me “misreppy.” This is something I’ve already addressed and her continuing to bring it up without addressing my posts that address it is doubtcasting me for something that she should either be fine with based on my prior posts, or bringing up with me directly to sort out. Instead she continues to call us misreppy, again after the strawman situation should have been cleared up, and makes it sound like my entire response to Sausasaurus’s post is misreppy and therefore invalid just because of that one mistake I made. She’s using the one part of my response that could be construed as misreppy and acting as if that’s my entire argument. If you put aside that piece, our responses to Sausasaurus’s post are the same yet she doesn’t acknowledge that whatsoever and solely focuses on the one part of my posts that could be vaguely misconstrued and pushes that. I believe that counts as strawmanning too?

You don’t think that’s suspect at all?

- Smarter

[Allomancer]

I think the cop should investigate who they want and just crumb the results.

[skitter30]

honestly I think that I have, that was kinda how the whole discussion started, but I'm willing to acknowledge that to other players who don't know my alignment it may not be that easy to see

i guess ultimately what i'm getting back to is it seems unreasonable to me that you were dinging auro townpoints because he didn't see the difference between your town and scumgames

[skitter30]

what made their last three posts worse than the rest of their iso?

the rest of the iso was nullish so I just wanted to be specific

I really didn't like 312 347 357, they all just seem like under the radar scum posts

no offense but i don't see what makes these posts any different than the other posts she made; it feels like a convenient way to justify your vote when you decide you want to vote their since it seems like you can say just that about almost any of her posts

[skitter30]

i mean, that's kinda what your slot did here too but ok

Well, sure. I didn't say it was scummy, just erroneous. I didn't read the posts closely but it looks like lilith made a mistake, which happens but of course should be avoided as much as possible.

-Smart

my point is that if you're expecting people to understand that Lilith just made a mistake and came to an erroneous conclusion , accusing rex of jumping to conclusions and acting in bad faith seems like a double standard that you're using to shade him and to negate his point

[skitter30]

and smart is also a lot more passive than i'd expect him to be

Really? Have we played together recently other than in PYP? Because I was hella passive in that game.

-Smart

? no you weren't?

[skitter30]

Yeah I fucking got it, there's no need to beat a dead horse... My reading comprehension isn't the best when I'm burnt out, mentally drained, and attempting to write posts in between work calls. If you caught up on the thread, you should see I already responded to the accusation that I was strawmanning in 417 and 437, and I still believe that I wasn't misrepresenting anything. Actually, I'll just quote them for you:

it's possible that you misunderstood his point, sure

but:
1. the two of you have strawmanned and/or misrepresented people's arguments in other places too, so it's not like this is the only instance or anything
2. rex seems to be the sort of player who is cautious of wagons going too high and of lynching too early; this is a common thread in his post that i pointed out early; he's already done this three times this game. given that ... bashing him on the fact that he wants people to slow down a bit and calling him out on it and getting into a fight with him about it seems a bit silly

How is this different from my response to his post? Sounds like you're saying the same things I did. Who's strawmanning whom now?

you realize that i can think his post is bad but at the same time dislike how you interpreted, right?
and that i can change my mind about what i thought about his post once i read more of his posts?
and that his latter posts invalidated what you were calling him out for there
and where did i strawman, pray tell?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Which part of our process do you think she is calling disingenuous?

It seems to me like the “strawmanning” part was the only reason for calling us disingenuous in the first place and that is the basis for calling me “misreppy.” This is something I’ve already addressed and her continuing to bring it up without addressing my posts that address it is doubtcasting me for something that she should either be fine with based on my prior posts, or bringing up with me directly to sort out. Instead she continues to call us misreppy, again after the strawman situation should have been cleared up, and makes it sound like my entire response to Sausasaurus’s post is misreppy and therefore invalid just because of that one mistake I made. She’s using the one part of my response that could be construed as misreppy and acting as if that’s my entire argument. If you put aside that piece, our responses to Sausasaurus’s post are the same yet she doesn’t acknowledge that whatsoever and solely focuses on the one part of my posts that could be vaguely misconstrued and pushes that. I believe that counts as strawmanning too?

You don’t think that’s suspect at all?

- Smarter

[skitter30]

203 is the first time I explicitly mentioned it, in particular based on 201 where I would not expect scum to question being placed in a townbloc, but I've been townleaning/townreading him for the majority of the game. I revisited this read in 250, basically wanting Karnage to get more activity in so I could see if I needed to update my earlier read; and his series of posts in 298, 299, 301, 305, and 306 helped solidify that townread for me.

what was the point of 277 and 279 ?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@514:

Okay, cool, so she didn't catch up in thread with your clarification on the "strawman" when she made that point... ok? So?
Like you think as scum she reads your clarification and goes "oh lulz let me attack them for it anyway"?

Saying the same things as you did later does not mean she can't point out a specific point of yours against Rex as a strawman.

You do realize that she was making posts as she caught up, right? Look at the sequencing of posts and her progression on Rex there - I thought that much was obvious?

Yes, she points out a post from Rex as SvS-y and what not, attacks your attacks on him because they feel disingenuous to her, then progresses to a nullish read on Rex - I frankly don't see the problem here. It's just a thought process? Perhaps if you read it under that light, you will see that her posts are consistent with updating beliefs on catching up, instead of looking for consistency as a single belief state as a whole.

I don’t see any transparency behind how she started at “Rex’s post is scummy and here’s why” and “Rex’s post is fine and Smarter is disingenuous for having the same reaction to that post that she herself did.” It feels like a contrived progression on us and I think town is more likely to react favorably to someone showing a similar thought process to them instead of attacking said thought process. On top of that it feels like she’s more interested in telling everyone that we’re misrepping than engaging with us and trying to understand our thought process if in fact she thinks we are being disingenuous, like she’s just decided that we’re scum and yet doesn’t vote us or further engage to solidify that read.

Frankly, I don’t think I was misrepping at all; if you believe I was misrepping, then so was she because she posted the same 3 points that I did; and her calling us disingenuous and misrepping is in fact a misrepresentation itself of my actual progression on Sausasaurus Rex.

- Smarter

[skitter30]

i'm like 4 pages behind, let me read and then i'll get to that

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

203 is the first time I explicitly mentioned it, in particular based on 201 where I would not expect scum to question being placed in a townbloc, but I've been townleaning/townreading him for the majority of the game. I revisited this read in 250, basically wanting Karnage to get more activity in so I could see if I needed to update my earlier read; and his series of posts in 298, 299, 301, 305, and 306 helped solidify that townread for me.

what was the point of 277 and 279 ?

Trying to engage you primarily

- Smarter

[skitter30]

Another question for you, skitter:

Who is the other "s" in "svs"?

allo, obviously

pedit, i mean then what did you think about my karnage read then?

[skitter30]

lol I don't know how anyone can read posts like 514 and think that limit hydra is scum

Allo/skit kinda feels like The Solve for me rn.

uh no, it's disingenuous, ate-y, and acting like i'm incapable of changing my mind

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Yeah I fucking got it, there's no need to beat a dead horse... My reading comprehension isn't the best when I'm burnt out, mentally drained, and attempting to write posts in between work calls. If you caught up on the thread, you should see I already responded to the accusation that I was strawmanning in 417 and 437, and I still believe that I wasn't misrepresenting anything. Actually, I'll just quote them for you:

it's possible that you misunderstood his point, sure

but:
1. the two of you have strawmanned and/or misrepresented people's arguments in other places too, so it's not like this is the only instance or anything

Please show me where this happened

2. rex seems to be the sort of player who is cautious of wagons going too high and of lynching too early; this is a common thread in his post that i pointed out early; he's already done this three times this game. given that ... bashing him on the fact that he wants people to slow down a bit and calling him out on it and getting into a fight with him about it seems a bit silly

Sure but you’re calling me disingenuous for it instead of, I don’t know, just drawing incorrect conclusions

How is this different from my response to his post? Sounds like you're saying the same things I did. Who's strawmanning whom now?

you realize that i can think his post is bad but at the same time dislike how you interpreted, right?

How is how you interpreted it different from how I interpreted it?

and that i can change my mind about what i thought about his post once i read more of his posts?
and that his latter posts invalidated what you were calling him out for there
and where did i strawman, pray tell?

See posts above where I just quoted myself

- Smarter

[skitter30]

allo, again, why are you still voting acryon?

[skitter30]

I'm saying exactly this. I noticed when I was questioning them on strategy talk. Both Smart and Smarter were online, responded giving the true answer independently at the same time; that's one instance I'd definitely think they would think to talk to each other about first if scum.

ok, have you actually seen him do this in a hydra to his partner?
or alternatively, ss do you have any hydra scum games you can point me to?

i'm not sure he's the sort of person who would make sure the heads are on the exact same page before either of them posted?

[Auro]

As scum it's important to give correct answers to factual questions, when I ask "did you guys discuss strategy before playing the game" for example - safer to make sure they're on the same page regarding answering that.

[skitter30]

you're more interested in solving the question of 'who can benefit town if town' vs who can't regardless of alignment, and I think that's a bad way to form reads and an easy way to lead to mislynches.

i mean, no, that's not quite what he's doing

he's basically prioritizing:
- if people are universally obvtown there's no reason for them to take up a potential cop-slot, so they ought to be onwagon
- if people are not, or are hard-to-read, they should be off-wagon
- once we're looking at the people offwagon, we should prioritize copping the people who are hard to read but would be effective as an inno
- if someone is neither obvtown nor effective as town, we should consider lynching them (which is kinda what we do anyways, in not-this-setup)

saying that auro's strategy can lead to mislynches is, like, technically true but is kinda ignoring the overall strategy, and also feels tmi-y to me

also, hi, let's talk about why you're scumreading me

[skitter30]

As scum it's important to give correct answers to factual questions, when I ask "did you guys discuss strategy before playing the game" for example - safer to make sure they're on the same page regarding answering that.

they can be either town or scum who didn't discuss strategy before playing the game and give a truthful answer either way ...