Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps [Game over!]

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

We need to lock this in D1, though.

Well, yeah.

It's a lot less clear-cut now than it was earlier, so I wouldn't be broken up if we didn't do it.

-Smart

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Cool. Smart, Acryon; you fine with a Nom lynch too?

Yes.

-Smart

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I am not down for an allo wagon.

@acryon, why are/were you scumreading nom? Why aren't you willing to lynch karnage?

Reading up now

- Smarter

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Ugh nvm he's gone for the weekend. Well that sucks..

- Smarter

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I just want a flip even if it's mine

Cool, then why really bother if I'm pushing you as the lynch?

Nope, I would strongly suggest against Karnage unless 1/0 and Crayon both feel that should be the lynch. Nom should be the lynch and if not, Allo; and GL/Skitter/Myself should all be off wagon definitely. I know you want him in the townbloc, Smart, but still. Still feel cop shouldn't be leashed

Auro are you still close to this post in terms of mindset for today's lynch?

- Smarter

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Still think nom is the best wagon and we are already voting there. Acryon is voting allomancer and is VLA all weekend so... he won't be part of the wagon.

- Smarter

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okay seriously Limit can you just pick the lynch and wagon this is getting sloppy

we are on nom

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Eve is already voting nom

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sorry no I don't think I'm willing to switch to allo

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wow this really sucks that so many people have basically prodged through D1

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Eve, us, and molla are on. so we just need rex and allo to join the wagon, yes?

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@mod can we get a prod on karnage please

@Auro I see your point, but at this point I don’t think we have enough time to switch to another wagon and I don’t want to build a wagon on a previously unwagoned person because that wouldn’t give us any info :/ at least with a nom wagon there’s decent amount of interactions we can analyze after. I’d maaaybe be willing to switch to Eve if we can get consensus but we only have 12 hours now

- Smarter

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Why is Rex on the wagon?

-Smart

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Is it worth trying to leash the cop at this point? I would be very down for a GL check if noms is town, that's pretty much a win-win, especially if the cop doesn't have to out on an inno.

-Smart

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Not really. BBmolla said he didn't like that Eve and Rex were in the hood, Rex asked who he would rather have been in it, and he said Auro.

Pretty much it.

-Smart

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I don't think that I will need to.

Yeah...

So who put the brakes on the Allo wagon and in what manner did they do it? That's where I'm looking.

Uh.... hate to break it to you but you were the first person off the Allomancer wagon after it hit L-1. However, it’s not clear whether you picked up on the soft. You were followed by GL unvoting directly after (whom I believe did pick up on the soft there). Will reread that section and see if I get anything out of those pages.

- Smarter

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What’s your read on Karnage?

- Smarter

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if i were scum here i'm not sure why i wouldn't have run him up and forced him to claim

1) Why would you need him to claim if he already softed?
2) I don’t think you would have been able to join the wagon without suspicion given you were supposed to be in the copbloc?

- Smarter

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What was this obvious crumb, Skitter?

I thought you saw it and decided it wasn’t a soft? That’s the impression I got from our convo re: me not wanting to lynch Allomancer slot at end of D1

- Smarter

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What was this obvious crumb, Skitter?

I thought you saw it and decided it wasn’t a soft? That’s the impression I got from our convo re: me not wanting to lynch Allomancer slot at end of D1

- Smarter

Well, I knew it was a risk to kill him, but wanted to pressure him considerably to make him less likely as an NK too. I remember saying I knew your reasons and am still proceeding, etc?

Yes I know, but when you asked skitter where the soft was it seems like you didn’t know.

How would pressuring him make him less likely to be NK?

- Smarter

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if i were scum here i'm not sure why i wouldn't have run him up and forced him to claim

1) Why would you need him to claim if he already softed?
2) I don’t think you would have been able to join the wagon without suspicion given you were supposed to be in the copbloc?

- Smarter

so that we wouldn't be having this conversation ....
and even with the cop-bloc we were having wagons earlier on in the day, i could vote someone without ultimately ending up on the lynch wagon

Uh I don’t think you’re understanding my question.

Wouldn’t scum who saw the soft just let the wagon go so they can use the NK? What need is there to force a claim?

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Yes I know, but when you asked skitter where the soft was it seems like you didn’t know.

How would pressuring him make him less likely to be NK?

1. Whether there was something else that made it obvious. Skitter said GL "likely" saw it, when GL blatantly responded to it with "better not be what I think it is" after that statement - a little fishy

2. Reflects that I don't believe the crumb, and also paints them as a very mislynchable candidate the next day: so if you're not *sure* as scum that they're TA, forcing their claim next day isn't a bad prospect, etc

1 - Are you saying that skitter only being “pretty sure” that GL saw the same crumb is fishy? Like, is it the degree of surety that you are questioning or something else?

2 - ? You were presenting Allo as a deadline lynch candidate - how does that put pressure on him without actually resulting in a lynch or hardclaim?

- Smarter

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Theory question: would scum always go for a NL over ML? Like, is it better for them to have town!nom lynched D1 or no lynch at all?

- Smarter

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the scumteam's probably quite competent if they correctly ascertained Allo was traffic guy and risked killing a highly mislynchable potential townie

VOTE: skitter

it's you isn't it

Excuse me?

-Smart

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So who put the brakes on the Allo wagon and in what manner did they do it? That's where I'm looking.

GL pretty clearly suggested that he was backing off because he saw the soft.

-Smart

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Oh I know I was one that put the brakes on it at one point, but I don't have to question my own motives

Did you notice the soft?

-Smart

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if i were scum here i'm not sure why i wouldn't have run him up and forced him to claim

Because then the people pushing him look bad and he might retaliate and try to wagon you?

-Smart

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Pedit: No.

Oh you said that like a page after lol.

Imagine reading things before posting

-Smart

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So @acryon, who out of those deflating the Allo wagon do you think did so the most suspiciously?

Cause I kinda think it’s you. You were the first one to back off the wagon but at deadline you were happy to divert attention from the nom wagon which was basically the only viable wagon at that point and you tried to lynch Allomancer instead.

- Smarter

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... it's day2 and we've had flips already
i'm kinda not sure how you don't have any reads at this point ...

But on the flip side, it'd be kinda remarkable to be under that much pressure as scum and still refuse to fake any reads, no?

-Smart

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Theory question: would scum always go for a NL over ML? Like, is it better for them to have town!nom lynched D1 or no lynch at all?

- Smarter

I think most people would pick the town lynch in this situation.

Especially since we weren't SO close to deadline that scum not voting would FORCE a NL; there'd always be the risk of someone else showing up and voting.

-Smart

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I know I didn't spot the soft, but it seems like almost everyone else did.

For the record, I didn't notice it until lilith brought it up to me. I don't think it was THAT obvious.

-Smart

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What's interesting to me is GL's trajectory from being annoyed at inclusion in the cop bloc, to *asking* to leash a cop on himself at the end of the day. Dangerous play unless 100% certain of Allo TA, but very very very good payoff.

It looked like GL was pretty confident in the soft. I can definitely see him doing that as scum.

-Smart

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I was planning to come in here with a fake guilty on someone

Who?

-Smart

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But would he also call out that he noticed the soft?

Possibly? I don't really see why not, if that's what he thought he'd do as town.

-Smart

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I mean, are we suspecting him because we know that scum figured out the soft and we know that he figured out the soft? I don't really think revealing it would be detrimental to scum-him, since it's entirely possible that scum figured out the soft and didn't let on that they did.

-Smart

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In other words, it's a big ball of WIFOM.

-Smart

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I mean, are we suspecting him because we know that scum figured out the soft and we know that he figured out the soft? I don't really think revealing it would be detrimental to scum-him, since it's entirely possible that scum figured out the soft and didn't let on that they did.

I think I'm going deeper than that? Specifically how his confidence can affect his dayplay and trajectory towards the lynch and willingness to be in the bloc, etc.
I don't think many scum confidently choose to NK Allomancer.

I think Smart’s post was @acryon who seems to be saying that scum!GL wouldn’t reveal that he knew it was a soft

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I mean, are we suspecting him because we know that scum figured out the soft and we know that he figured out the soft? I don't really think revealing it would be detrimental to scum-him, since it's entirely possible that scum figured out the soft and didn't let on that they did.

I think I'm going deeper than that? Specifically how his confidence can affect his dayplay and trajectory towards the lynch and willingness to be in the bloc, etc.

I think I agree with you here that GL has some confusing switches in his stance on being in the bloc but I’m not sure yet whether I think it’s ill-intentioned.

I don't think many scum confidently choose to NK Allomancer.

Why is that?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

So @acryon, who out of those deflating the Allo wagon do you think did so the most suspiciously?

Cause I kinda think it’s you. You were the first one to back off the wagon but at deadline you were happy to divert attention from the nom wagon which was basically the only viable wagon at that point and you tried to lynch Allomancer instead.

- Smarter

that is a ... remarkably backwards way of looking at acryon's vote there

also have you two discussed the flip at all together?

A bit but not much.

What about it do you think is backwards? It seemed like acryon was getting cold feet about a nom wagon as we got close to deadline and he tried to restart an Allo wagon. It’s possible that at that point scum could have pushed a deadline Allo lynch without getting a hardclaim. Do you disagree?

- Smarter

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It was kind of me, but it was because I wanted more information before deciding on a lynch, not because I specifically didn’t want to lynch Allomancer.

Do you have

any

thoughts on this game and who might be scum/town? Thoughts on the interactions with the Allo wagon, etc?

The is the only post of even mild substance in basically two weeks.

@Auro, I think Allomancer towned up in his recent posts. Why is it that you still think he should be the lynch?

UNVOTE:

Also yeah Sausasaurus hasn’t done anything and I’m gonna go dig up some questions I remember asking him

- Smarter

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He didn’t even say what his thoughts were on nom when he voted her

- Smarter

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Sausasaurus you have yet to respond to my 417 and 437.

Also, what was your read on Allomancer when you voted him in 802?

- Smarter

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Sorry for lack of posting, have some rl stuff happening. I will try to catch up and be around tonight.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Karnage, why is Eve probably town? Towards the end of D1 it seemed like you didn't really have a read on that slot but said you preferred to keep Eve alive so that scum would have to decide whether to NK her. What has changed since then?

- Smarter

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I know it isn't. Don't think I necessarily need a vote to make my pushes , but yeah I'll be more active in a while.

I think {Acryon, Eve, Karnage, 1/0} are all town.
Molla is also town.
GL, perhaps.

PoE of {Skitter, Rex} then.

Switch Eve and GL and it's the same for me.

I feel like here you are indicating a strong (or at least stronger) townread on Karnage..

idk I feel Karnage's play here is similar to my own as scum (tempted to reference the aforementioned Newbie game again ), where you just aim to sound town by tone/reasoning and post & do as little as you can get away with. He's getting away with not doing a whole lot it seems!

I don't doubt that it's a possibility he's scum here, and if I don't see some real action from him soon, I'll be ready to move there too. I guess I just would expect more from a player of his tenure as either alignment honestly.

But here you imply the read is weak enough that you would vote him if he maintains his current level of activity.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Since he's a competent player, I guess I wouldn't expect him to lurk-scum? I know I would never lurk-scum even if it's a good strategy.

Some people just lurk because of RL, though.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Guilty and Auro are probably town

skitter is a little off and my only scum impression

Can you explain what gave you a scum impression of skitter?

- Smarter

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i think we have this in the bag

i don't think Karnage is scum

Also why don't you think Karnage is scum?

- Smarter

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VOTE: karnage

Are you scumreading Karnage?

You basically didn't mention him after your pressure vote yesterday and now presumably he is your strongest scumread, can you explain your progression there?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

... it's day2 and we've had flips already
i'm kinda not sure how you don't have any reads at this point ...

I have some reads but I just don't think they're worth much. I think TLDE, auro, and acryon are town. Eve is probably town too.

That leaves scum in skitter, GL, BB, and SR.

Gun to my head I'd say SR is town and BB idk. I'd prefer to lynch either skit/GL today

Is it a coincidence that skitter and GL are the two people voting you?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

What about it do you think is backwards? It seemed like acryon was getting cold feet about a nom wagon as we got close to deadline and he tried to restart an Allo wagon. It’s possible that at that point scum could have pushed a deadline Allo lynch without getting a hardclaim. Do you disagree?

no? nom was a mislynch so why would scum switch at that point ...
it was a few hours before deadline iirc and i dont' think allo was viable at that point; allo could and should have been pushed earlier if that was what scum were trying to do

@smarter, did you not see this?

Sorry I did not.

If acryon is telling the truth about not seeing the soft then my point is moot. He was talking about getting back to an Allo wagon before the nom deadline wagon happened though, like it wasn’t just the one vote I’m talking about.

- Smarter

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Hi Titus!

Happy belated bday GL <3

Auro and GL I love your hydra avatar

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Why do you consider GL to be voteparking but not skitter?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

SETUP
The setup is City That Never Sleeps.
2 Mafia Goons
1 Traffic Analyst
8 City Planners

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If GuiltyLion is scum, his partner is not likely skitter or acryon. It would only be BBMolla if scum desperately felt scared and needed to control the wagons today, and I don't see that happening.

That leaves Eve, TLDNE, Karnage and Auro. I don't see scum!GL bussing Karnage here. So remove Karnage.

So if GL is scum, then Eve, TLDNE, or Auro is likely his partner.

Can you answer my question?

- Smarter

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Oops I didn’t mean to quote that

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Why do you consider GL to be voteparking but not skitter?

- Smarter

I think this is it.

I consider GL's votepark more of a scummy votepark. Skitter looks more like a tunnel than a lazy votepark if that makes sense from just eyeballing the VCA.

Thanks. Can you explain what about the VCA makes them seem different to you?

- Smarter

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Also I know VCA is your thing - we had a lot of movement around wagon composition, so people who would normally be on the wagon (ie they were advocating for it) were off the wagon in order to be coppable, so I’m guessing that probably impacts your VCA.

- Smarter

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Hm I think Titus is town for the slip

Let's lynch Skitter?

Slip? As in not realizing we did the stuff related to wagon comp? I don’t think that’s AI, why do you?

I could be down to lynch skitter but I want a replacement for karnage first. And more content from Titus.

- Smarter

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@Titus: Allo softclaimed when he was at L-1. Acryon unvoted on the basis that he thought allo was following town meta (I think), GL unvoted because we saw the soft, that deflated the wagon.

- Smarter

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because he saw the soft* although I did see it too

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

When I look at these VCs, I see a very sheepish, survivalist and static GuiltyLion. He is more about voting the counter when he's wagoned early, and then just lurks on the popular wagons. That's exactly where someone would want to be avoiding the cop.

I don’t think GL was wagoned early - our vote and acryon’s vote on him were both from RVS, then we voted elsewhere and GL voted acryon and acryon said “my GL vote is now serious.” Afaik no one else was on a GL wagon? Is there some other wagon you’re referring to?

I also wouldn’t say he was lurking on popular wagons, I think to some extent this is muddled by the wagon comp stuff. Iirc he was the first one pushing karnage and nom D1 (which led to nom lynch).

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I guess mislynching nom isn’t really a point in his favor, but at that point I think most people were townreading nom, and I think he was one of the first people to push her so I definitely wouldn’t have called that static or survivalistic.

- Smarter

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nsg took the pagetop away from me

Anyway I think my original point still stands - skitter and GL have made similar pushes on the same people since late D1, starting with karnage/nom yesterday and continuing with karnage today. I don’t really understand how one is lazy voteparking but not the other.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I guess mislynching nom isn’t really a point in his favor, but at that point I think most people were townreading nom, and I think he was one of the first people to push her so I definitely wouldn’t have called that static or survivalistic.

- Smarter

He might push her with his word, but his votes show differently. Pushing someone but waiting on a wagon to form before voting is pretty much waiting for a crowd. It's our votes that are our power, not our words.

On D1, he was explicitly told not to be on the wagon and I remember he said “I would be voting karnage but out of respect for wagon comp I won’t, this is me voting him in spirit.” I don’t think we can necessarily take lack of voting at face value because of this.

- Smarter

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VOTE: karnage

VOTE: Karnage

This is pretty blatant following, do you think scum does that?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I guess my conclusion is that I have attributed what you call suspicious voting patterns from GL to him being aware that he was not supposed to end up on the final lynch and playing accordingly; and I think you are attributing that primarily to him being scum rather than wagon comp reasons.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If I was in GuiltyLion's spot, I'd be looking at people who were trying to peel the Karnage wagon in this manner.

Sorry can you explain what this means? I think I’ve been away from mafia for too long.. what is “peel the Karnage wagon” and in what manner?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

We screwed with D1 VCA a lot by controlling votes and wagons.

^

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Okay I think I get it. Auro was the main person pushing wagon comp early, so you’re saying GL should have been more suspicious of that and pushed Auro more? And that the lack of that is GL playing safe?

I think due to the game mechanics, controlling wagons was always going to be a thing. The traffic analyst only gets valid checks on those who were off the wagon, so it was important to make sure we had at least one scum off the wagon if not two. I think everyone accepted that wagon comp was going to happen. I don’t think GL not pushing Auro a lot for it is suspicious, but iirc GL was one of the few who actually didn’t vote someone because of it, so I see what you’re saying.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Sorry for being so absent. I have rediscovered the joy that is Super Mario Galaxy and as a result have been on my computer a lot less, and it's a pain to log into the hydra from my phone

Anyway hi Titus, hopefully you can help us breathe some more life into this game. You should definitely try to read up if you can, especially if you're trying to do VCA because a lot of the vote placements were related to mechanics.

-Smart

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Why is he scum? Because he voteparked?

-Smart

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if people think i'm scum why don't you just vote me or tell me why instead of pussy-footing around maybe calling me scum if other people are down for it

it feels like you're feeling your way into seeing if it would be acceptable to vote there without actually committing to it @limit

if people think i'm scum why don't you just vote me or tell me why instead of pussy-footing around maybe calling me scum if other people are down for it

it feels like you're feeling your way into seeing if it would be acceptable to vote there without actually committing to it @limit

+1

Eve, I saw your question. Will reply later tonight/tomorrow as explaining VCA from the bottom up is harder.

@skitter:

It should be fairly clear I scumread your slot strongly on D1 based on our interactions. I was actually waiting to see what Titus posted about your slot since I agreed with bbmolla and thought the scumteam might be you/titus based on how you defended rex from me in D1, and the reactions from the two of you now as well as titus’ lack of interest in pushing your slot seem to align with that.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If acryon is telling the truth about not seeing the soft then my point is moot. He was talking about getting back to an Allo wagon before the nom deadline wagon happened though, like it wasn’t just the one vote I’m talking about.

sorry i'm still not following
allo wasn't really viable at that point, i don't think that scum thinks that they were going to get that deadline lynch there really

especially since acryon knows he's vla over the weekend and wouldn't be able to nudge people in that direction

Multiple people were suggesting allo as a lynch and I’m pretty sure that could have been the lynch if I hadn’t been opposing it. I think it’s false to say allo wasn’t a viable wagon towards the end of the day because he definitely was. And acryon was one of the people suggesting it.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Like, I’m trying to sort other people today because of how emotional my reaction has been to your slot. Me hard pushing you almost 100% turns into another 1v1, and I don’t particularly want to dominate the gamestate with wallposts since it’s been so slow. I may be taking a more circuitous route in this day phase, but you’ve never been anywhere near my townpile so me saying that I could lynch you shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Hello person.

Can someone talk to me about Eve? The only noteworthy thing I can remember her doing is softing traffic analyst on page 1.

-Smart

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Oooookay should've picked this up before

OH.

VOTE: Titus

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Because that reads like Saus picking up on the soft and then denying it?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

To distance from the kill? I mean, it feels like a bad look to come out after the cop dies and say "yeah I totally knew he was cop." Even though it isn't actually bad, it's the type of thing that newer scum would probably avoid.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

1157 very much feels like backing off after seeing a soft.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Not protested what? Moving off when you see a TPR soft as scum, you don't see the benefits of that from a dayplay perspective?

werne't one of you just arguing with me that scum would have kept on to try to see if they could mislynch him?

That would be me, and I was just trying to figure out what implications acryon backing off the allo wagon had, and I've already said it's a moot point if acryon truly didn't see the soft, but you keep hounding me about it as if the conclusion of the argument is going to help you read us but like... it wasn't a fully formed thought when I said the thing, I was just posting something off the top of my head about who looked the most suspicious around the time the allo wagon deflated, so I don't really know what you want from me here or how that's going to help sort us.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@skitter:

It should be fairly clear I scumread your slot strongly on D1 based on our interactions. I was actually waiting to see what Titus posted about your slot since I agreed with bbmolla and thought the scumteam might be you/titus based on how you defended rex from me in D1, and the reactions from the two of you now as well as titus’ lack of interest in pushing your slot seem to align with that.

i mean, why haven't you pushed me this whole time?
i was under the impression we came to a mutual understanding that we misunderstood each other
if this has been simmering under the lid the whole time why haven't you brought it up or tried to address it until other people starting throwing my name in the mix?
like day2 has been slow as anything, the last like three irl days would have been a good time to try to resolve this, no?

No, I came to the conclusion that me directly pushing you in a 1v1 wasn't going to achieve anything besides wallposts. I tried to put aside my D1 read on the basis that it was emotional, but my point is that it shouldn't be a surprise that you're not in my townreads.

I have been trying to engage your slot today in a more rational way in an attempt to sort you, the same way I've approached everyone else, so it's false to say that I "haven't pushed you this whole time." See all of these:

Spoiler: Quote wall of trying to engage with skitter to sort slot

What’s your read on Karnage?

- Smarter

if i were scum here i'm not sure why i wouldn't have run him up and forced him to claim

1) Why would you need him to claim if he already softed?
2) I don’t think you would have been able to join the wagon without suspicion given you were supposed to be in the copbloc?

- Smarter

if i were scum here i'm not sure why i wouldn't have run him up and forced him to claim

1) Why would you need him to claim if he already softed?
2) I don’t think you would have been able to join the wagon without suspicion given you were supposed to be in the copbloc?

- Smarter

so that we wouldn't be having this conversation ....
and even with the cop-bloc we were having wagons earlier on in the day, i could vote someone without ultimately ending up on the lynch wagon

Uh I don’t think you’re understanding my question.

Wouldn’t scum who saw the soft just let the wagon go so they can use the NK? What need is there to force a claim?

So @acryon, who out of those deflating the Allo wagon do you think did so the most suspiciously?

Cause I kinda think it’s you. You were the first one to back off the wagon but at deadline you were happy to divert attention from the nom wagon which was basically the only viable wagon at that point and you tried to lynch Allomancer instead.

- Smarter

that is a ... remarkably backwards way of looking at acryon's vote there

also have you two discussed the flip at all together?

A bit but not much.

What about it do you think is backwards? It seemed like acryon was getting cold feet about a nom wagon as we got close to deadline and he tried to restart an Allo wagon. It’s possible that at that point scum could have pushed a deadline Allo lynch without getting a hardclaim. Do you disagree?

- Smarter

VOTE: karnage

Are you scumreading Karnage?

You basically didn't mention him after your pressure vote yesterday and now presumably he is your strongest scumread, can you explain your progression there?

- Smarter

Thirdly, as I've said, I've been looking at Titus to see if there's a possibility of you/Titus team and I even asked her about your slot in order to see her reaction about you.

Spoiler: Quote wall of asking Titus about skitter slot

Why do you consider GL to be voteparking but not skitter?

- Smarter

Why do you consider GL to be voteparking but not skitter?

- Smarter

I think this is it.

I consider GL's votepark more of a scummy votepark. Skitter looks more like a tunnel than a lazy votepark if that makes sense from just eyeballing the VCA.

Thanks. Can you explain what about the VCA makes them seem different to you?

- Smarter

nsg took the pagetop away from me

Anyway I think my original point still stands - skitter and GL have made similar pushes on the same people since late D1, starting with karnage/nom yesterday and continuing with karnage today. I don’t really understand how one is lazy voteparking but not the other.

- Smarter

I did this because, as I said before, hard pushing you like I did D1 almost 100% turns into another 1v1 which I think would just give me an even more emotional read on your slot. Again, I may be taking a more circuitous route but it's misreppy to claim that I haven't touched your slot at all or that my willingness to lynch you was coming out of nowhere. Like, all I'd said was that I could be willing to lynch you when Auro directly asked me about lynching you. It should not have come out of left field that you're in my lynchable pool - I haven't done or said anything that implies that I'm townreading you. Now that I've seen your and Titus' reactions, I do think you are probably the scumteam though.

Fourthly, I've had some shit happening in RL and hadn't posted much anywhere.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Multiple people were suggesting allo as a lynch and I’m pretty sure that could have been the lynch if I hadn’t been opposing it. I think it’s false to say allo wasn’t a viable wagon towards the end of the day because he definitely was. And acryon was one of the people suggesting it.

no, he really wasn't?
he had already softed and besides for a throw-away vote by acryon nobody was really talking about him at that point

like i don't think that scum!acryon thinks that that's going anywhere really

can you update me on your reads plz?

(and i guess if you/smart have a difference of opinion somewhere, say that too?)

See 1652 for how I feel about this entire line of questioning. It seems like you're pushing me because you think my line of thinking is erroneous? Or do you think it's actually scummy for me to be pointing this out? I don't think I'm wrong about the viability of an Allo wagon at day-end (and even if I were wrong, why would I be making this up? to push acryon on false pretenses?). Since you are so adamant that I'm wrong, I went back and found these posts, which all occurred

after

the Allo soft, to show that the Allo wagon was still fairly viable even after his wagon collapsed.

Spoiler: Quote wall

I think we need to hang Allo or Eve, and check nom/Karnage off the wagon if we don't get scum.

couldn't we just have voted allo and went to day 2.

bbmolla who's scum?

One of Allo/Eve + a skilled scummer

My preference is to lynch Allomancer.

I believe I had considered your reasons myself at one point beforehand, and dismissed them. I would strongly say he belongs to the cop bloc lol.

Oh? What made you think the reasons shouldn't be considered? If you're right then I'd rather lynch allo still.

- Smarter

VOTE: Allomancer

I don't really wanna lynch Nom can we lynch Allo or Eve?

Nom should be the lynch and if not, Allo

I'm not into a Karnage lynch. As much as my gut is telling me Allo could be town, I think due to time's sake we have to go there.

I agree with a die roll, but are we sure we don't want people like Sauce/Karnage in the copbloc as well?

I don't see how the Allo situation gets better tomorrow either, so at the very least we remove a distraction.

We definitely don't need GL on the wagon for an Allo lynch. Plenty interest there, especially this close to deadline.

If we lynch someone other than me it should be Eve, Karnage, allo or skitt.

My opinion is back to Nom goes in the copbloc we lynch Allo.

and here's the post where he actually votes allo at deadline.

Really unfortunate I can't be around past 15 minutes from now. Sorry for any issues that causes.

VOTE: Allomancer

I think this is what needs to be done.

Sure, I'll agree with you that it would have been better for scum!acryon to vote for allomancer earlier, but 1) scum don't always do the 100% optimal thing! like saying "scum's best play would have been this" doesn't mean that that's what scum did; and 2) there were plenty of people who were willing to lynch allo at the end of D1 and he may have been hoping that his scum partner would help successfully swing the lynch there after his vote, or that him voting there and saying "I think this is what needs to be done" would make the Allo lynch feel like the only option that close to deadline. I do think he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon; and I think it's perfectly plausible for scum to believe that an Allo lynch is viable at deadline D1.

What exactly is the point you are trying to make about my line of thinking regarding acryon or the viability of a D1 deadline Allo lynch?

---------------
Reads, which I believe Smart and I are fairly aligned on:
GL
Auro
everyone else
skitter*
Titus

*Smart is not sure about your slot, probably somewhere around null/weak nulltown for him

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

unfortunately I feel it's gotta be you :/

^town doesn't make this post

Explain please?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I also have Auro and acryon above GL.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

VOTE: acryon

i'll sheep Atarashi

Eh?

Do you have history with them?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Did you actually spend 8 hours reading?

Do you have thoughts on any slot other than acryon?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@eve, can you respond to 1454 and 1455 please?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

no but what kind of masochistic scum spends 8.5 hours reading to form thoughts

This kind of thing is usually not alignment indicative.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Sure, I'll agree with you that it would have been better for scum!acryon to vote for allomancer earlier, but 1) scum don't always do the 100% optimal thing! like saying "scum's best play would have been this" doesn't mean that that's what scum did; and 2) there were plenty of people who were willing to lynch allo at the end of D1 and he may have been hoping that his scum partner would help successfully swing the lynch there after his vote, or that him voting there and saying "I think this is what needs to be done" would make the Allo lynch feel like the only option that close to deadline. I do think he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon; and I think it's perfectly plausible for scum to believe that an Allo lynch is viable at deadline D1.

So I can understand this reasoning, and definitely was tempted to feel this way immediately upon seeing Acryon's late D1 Allo vote, but then why does he come back to the thread to vote nom? I felt that was genuine town drive to make sure a Lynch happens.

[compare again to my point about how Karnage literally flaked out of doing anything useful end of D1, even while he was onsite posting in general discussion about politics]

I don't disagree with you! I'm not actually trying to push acryon now and my original thought process was basically a "what if" scenario predicated on acryon seeing the soft, but he's said he didn't see the soft. The problem is that skitter keeps arguing with me about this and saying my statements about what happened are incorrect even though I said the entire thing was a moot point. Like at this point we are arguing about a purely hypothetical scenario that I have already said is not even possible if acryon didn't see the soft.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@eve, can you respond to 1454 and 1455 please?

- Smarter

Karnage felt similar to the concurrent game i was playing with him in that is over now and he was town in

skitter i actually forgot why - she just feels "off" sometimes like i don't think she actually believes what she's saying

ya know???

Would you be able to point out a post where skitter felt off to you?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I do think he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon; and I think it's perfectly plausible for scum to believe that an Allo lynch is viable at deadline D1.

No. Just 1000% no.

1) Didn't you say you didn't read the game?
2) Are you disagreeing with me saying he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon, or disagreeing with me saying it's plausible that scum believe an Allo lynch is viable at deadline, or both? I feel that I've shown evidence for both of these things in 1656 - acryon talking about an Allo wagon as well as several other people talking about lynching Allo near deadline.
3) Why are you also arguing with me about something that is purely hypothetical at this point?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I do think he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon; and I think it's perfectly plausible for scum to believe that an Allo lynch is viable at deadline D1.

No. Just 1000% no.

1) Didn't you say you didn't read the game?
2) Are you disagreeing with me saying he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon, or disagreeing with me saying it's plausible that scum believe an Allo lynch is viable at deadline, or both? I feel that I've shown evidence for both of these things in 1656 - acryon talking about an Allo wagon as well as several other people talking about lynching Allo near deadline.
3) Why are you also arguing with me about something that is purely hypothetical at this point?

- Smarter

A scumfuck never thinks a day 1 PR claim in this setup is a viable mislynch. Whatever scum pushes that faces a flash wagon when Allo claims. Just cash out with the soft claim.

I don't have to read the game to know your proposition is faulty.

I can argue about hypotheticals because we're all hypothesizing. A vote is just an educated guess or a policy vote.

I think everyone in this game is in agreement that Allomancer was highly mislynchable, and

multiple people

were asking for an Allo wagon at deadline. I disagree that "scum never thinks a day 1 PR claim is a viable mislynch"

because the Allomancer wagon WAS IN FACT VIABLE

.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I do think he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon; and I think it's perfectly plausible for scum to believe that an Allo lynch is viable at deadline D1.

No. Just 1000% no.

1) Didn't you say you didn't read the game?
2) Are you disagreeing with me saying he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon, or disagreeing with me saying it's plausible that scum believe an Allo lynch is viable at deadline, or both? I feel that I've shown evidence for both of these things in 1656 - acryon talking about an Allo wagon as well as several other people talking about lynching Allo near deadline.
3) Why are you also arguing with me about something that is purely hypothetical at this point?

- Smarter

A scumfuck never thinks a day 1 PR claim in this setup is a viable mislynch. Whatever scum pushes that faces a flash wagon when Allo claims. Just cash out with the soft claim.

I don't have to read the game to know your proposition is faulty.

I can argue about hypotheticals because we're all hypothesizing. A vote is just an educated guess or a policy vote.

I think everyone in this game is in agreement that Allomancer was highly mislynchable, and

multiple people

were asking for an Allo wagon at deadline. I disagree that "scum never thinks a day 1 PR claim is a viable mislynch"

because the Allomancer wagon WAS IN FACT VIABLE

.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

A scumfuck never thinks a day 1 PR claim in this setup is a viable mislynch. Whatever scum pushes that faces a flash wagon when Allo claims. Just cash out with the soft claim.

This is kind of exactly what your predecessor did.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

noms was pretty clearly tilted and it's probably not wise to sheep her, but I disagree wholeheartedly with 1702.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

that was a joke btw

Oh. I mean it is definitely something that bears considering, because a lot of times mislynched townies do have better than random reads.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

That would prove my predecessor is town then. Scum don't try to mislynch a PR in this setup. It proves my predecessor was town and blind.

No, I mean, your predecessor quietly dropped the push after Allo softed… see 1623.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I do think he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon; and I think it's perfectly plausible for scum to believe that an Allo lynch is viable at deadline D1.

No. Just 1000% no.

1) Didn't you say you didn't read the game?
2) Are you disagreeing with me saying he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon, or disagreeing with me saying it's plausible that scum believe an Allo lynch is viable at deadline, or both? I feel that I've shown evidence for both of these things in 1656 - acryon talking about an Allo wagon as well as several other people talking about lynching Allo near deadline.
3) Why are you also arguing with me about something that is purely hypothetical at this point?

- Smarter

A scumfuck never thinks a day 1 PR claim in this setup is a viable mislynch. Whatever scum pushes that faces a flash wagon when Allo claims. Just cash out with the soft claim.

I don't have to read the game to know your proposition is faulty.

I can argue about hypotheticals because we're all hypothesizing. A vote is just an educated guess or a policy vote.

I think everyone in this game is in agreement that Allomancer was highly mislynchable, and

multiple people

were asking for an Allo wagon at deadline. I disagree that "scum never thinks a day 1 PR claim is a viable mislynch"

because the Allomancer wagon WAS IN FACT VIABLE

.

- Smarter

Nope. I bet none of those people were GL or Auro or anyone who claimed to see the soft. Those people wouldn't vote there despite the pleadings of others. A soft claim of PR means a slot is unlynchable.

Did you look at the quotes I posted?

Spoiler: Quote wall

I think we need to hang Allo or Eve, and check nom/Karnage off the wagon if we don't get scum.

couldn't we just have voted allo and went to day 2.

bbmolla who's scum?

One of Allo/Eve + a skilled scummer

My preference is to lynch Allomancer.

I believe I had considered your reasons myself at one point beforehand, and dismissed them. I would strongly say he belongs to the cop bloc lol.

Oh? What made you think the reasons shouldn't be considered? If you're right then I'd rather lynch allo still.

- Smarter

VOTE: Allomancer

I don't really wanna lynch Nom can we lynch Allo or Eve?

Nom should be the lynch and if not, Allo

I'm not into a Karnage lynch. As much as my gut is telling me Allo could be town, I think due to time's sake we have to go there.

I agree with a die roll, but are we sure we don't want people like Sauce/Karnage in the copbloc as well?

I don't see how the Allo situation gets better tomorrow either, so at the very least we remove a distraction.

We definitely don't need GL on the wagon for an Allo lynch. Plenty interest there, especially this close to deadline.

If we lynch someone other than me it should be Eve, Karnage, allo or skitt.

My opinion is back to Nom goes in the copbloc we lynch Allo.

and here's the post where he actually votes allo at deadline.

Really unfortunate I can't be around past 15 minutes from now. Sorry for any issues that causes.

VOTE: Allomancer

I think this is what needs to be done.

• acryon
  
• nom
  
• bbmolla
  
• Auro (did not believe the soft was real)
  
• us (had some doubt that the soft was real)

all saying we could lynch Allo after the soft, because his play was so horrible. How is that unlynchable?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Oh I missed Eve, she should be in that list too

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

That's literally a full-on lynch wagon

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Votes don't tell the whole story...

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think it looks to me like Eve is shading skitter for the sake of shade (IIRC skitter called other people out for this earlier as 'pussyfooting' to see if it's acceptable to vote there), and she's also deflecting responsibility by using a dead townie's reads rather than her own.

The fact that it was a joke notwithstanding, I don't really think that people wouldn't be holding Eve responsible if skitter was lynched because Eve out the blue proposed to sheep noms.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Out of the blue*

Words are hard.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

By definition they don't. "The whole story" is the sum total of everything game-relevant that's happened. Some of those things are not votes.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

._.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I do think he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon; and I think it's perfectly plausible for scum to believe that an Allo lynch is viable at deadline D1.

No. Just 1000% no.

1) Didn't you say you didn't read the game?
2) Are you disagreeing with me saying he was continuously trying to feel out an Allomancer wagon, or disagreeing with me saying it's plausible that scum believe an Allo lynch is viable at deadline, or both? I feel that I've shown evidence for both of these things in 1656 - acryon talking about an Allo wagon as well as several other people talking about lynching Allo near deadline.
3) Why are you also arguing with me about something that is purely hypothetical at this point?

- Smarter

A scumfuck never thinks a day 1 PR claim in this setup is a viable mislynch. Whatever scum pushes that faces a flash wagon when Allo claims. Just cash out with the soft claim.

I don't have to read the game to know your proposition is faulty.

I can argue about hypotheticals because we're all hypothesizing. A vote is just an educated guess or a policy vote.

I think everyone in this game is in agreement that Allomancer was highly mislynchable, and

multiple people

were asking for an Allo wagon at deadline. I disagree that "scum never thinks a day 1 PR claim is a viable mislynch"

because the Allomancer wagon WAS IN FACT VIABLE

.

- Smarter

Nope. I bet none of those people were GL or Auro or anyone who claimed to see the soft. Those people wouldn't vote there despite the pleadings of others. A soft claim of PR means a slot is unlynchable.

Did you look at the quotes I posted?

Spoiler: Quote wall

I think we need to hang Allo or Eve, and check nom/Karnage off the wagon if we don't get scum.

couldn't we just have voted allo and went to day 2.

bbmolla who's scum?

One of Allo/Eve + a skilled scummer

My preference is to lynch Allomancer.

I believe I had considered your reasons myself at one point beforehand, and dismissed them. I would strongly say he belongs to the cop bloc lol.

Oh? What made you think the reasons shouldn't be considered? If you're right then I'd rather lynch allo still.

- Smarter

VOTE: Allomancer

I don't really wanna lynch Nom can we lynch Allo or Eve?

Nom should be the lynch and if not, Allo

I'm not into a Karnage lynch. As much as my gut is telling me Allo could be town, I think due to time's sake we have to go there.

I agree with a die roll, but are we sure we don't want people like Sauce/Karnage in the copbloc as well?

I don't see how the Allo situation gets better tomorrow either, so at the very least we remove a distraction.

We definitely don't need GL on the wagon for an Allo lynch. Plenty interest there, especially this close to deadline.

If we lynch someone other than me it should be Eve, Karnage, allo or skitt.

My opinion is back to Nom goes in the copbloc we lynch Allo.

and here's the post where he actually votes allo at deadline.

Really unfortunate I can't be around past 15 minutes from now. Sorry for any issues that causes.

VOTE: Allomancer

I think this is what needs to be done.

• acryon
  
• nom
  
• bbmolla
  
• Auro (did not believe the soft was real)
  
• us (had some doubt that the soft was real)

all saying we could lynch Allo after the soft, because his play was so horrible. How is that unlynchable?

- Smarter

Allo hard claims. Wagon dead. Do note Auro claiming the soft isn't real helps scum.

At that point in D1, with just a soft, with so many people asking if they can wagon Allo, it's not implausible to want to push a deadline wagon on him (even if it ended with an L-1 claim and then disintegrated again)! Like.... I feel like you're completely missing the point of my posts.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Doubling down on "I've suspected Auro all along" and then linking times you disagreed with Auro aint great though GL I gotta tell ya

I mean, it's perfectly possible that he had those suspicions and never was really obvious about them. Since he said "low-key" that's kind of what it implies.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@GuiltyLion You should focus a little on building consensus about 1/0 with Skitter, tbh

And vice versa, actually. Why do you think this is out of skitter's scumrange?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I hate to do premature associatives but I do think skitter can't live if Titus flips scum.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Well here's the problem Titus: there are only two people in this game that have perfect information. So if you're actually town, you may want to stop acting like you're one of them.

Did I mention that I love this guy?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Yes but I do agree that's not a great look. Doesn't feel very townie to proactively provide justification like that.

Why not? Scum care about establishing a consistent narrative, town care about sharing what they actually think. If GL actually thought that Auro was scummy but never said so, he'd still want to point it out, whereas if he's scum wouldn't he be afraid that people would call him out for pulling that out of the blue?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Titus, what is your read on skitter?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Skitter is a she. And what do you mean by "lead"?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Well that's kind of to my point though. Scum do care about establishing a consistent narrative, so providing his own justification kind of supports that no?

Well, if he is scum trying to keep a consistent narrative, then he probably was thinking earlier as he was disagreeing with Auro "I'm going to start thinking Auro is scummier here." So it doesn't matter that the evidence he gave wasn't really compelling to prove that. I just don't think as scum he'd retroactively make up the Auro scumread and try to pretend that he was always planning to talk about it.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Except for EoD 1, Skitter has been front and center on each wagon she pushes. That's a leader unafraid of consequences.

I'm not a fan of VCA in general, but that's actually pretty reasonable as far as VCA reasoning goes.

Why didn't you say this earlier?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Huh, I don't see that anywhere in your ISO, can you link it?

But I do see this, which seems to be an entirely separate reason for locktowning her.

Even if you disagree with my VCA, Skitter's posting today is obvtown.

Explain?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think Skitter's scum, I'm asking GL to form consensus with her about your slot - how does that imply I think Skit's town?

Oh yeah in retrospect that is worded badly. It was supposed to be at GL (as a supplement to your question to him).

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

It feels like everyone is POEing down to her rather than making a case for what she's done that she wouldn't do as town.

But that's a reasonable mode of thinking, no? If there's a reason not to vote most people, that can be a reason to vote skitter, even if she hasn't done anything she wouldn't do as town.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Self-meta makes me very uncomfortable. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like proactively offering up reasons for why you would or wouldn't do something as scum. It's total WIFOM, and I don't think town really needs to do it.

I disagree. Self-meta can be untrustworthy, but if you're town the worst thing that will happen is that people ignore your self-meta. If you're scum and you lie, the worst thing that can happen is you get called out and lynched-- and because of that, self-meta is accurate a lot more often than you would think.

I'm no expert on scum-GL, but I have played a few games with him as scum (I think? Maybe it was just TM2018 actually). I don't recall him going out of his way to have long drawn-out interactions with his partners. Doesn't mean he's incapable of it, but I'm inclined to believe that he'd have to be having an awesome scumgame to pull that off. (Which is possible. In Baton Pass I repeatedly insisted that were I to be scum I'd be playing a far better scumgame than I ever had before, which I honestly believed.)

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Right, I was also scum with him in Newsroom. We didn't interact an especially large amount there, either.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I just don't see town defending and interacting the way they have

Unfortunately, townies are capable of an extraordinarily wide range of behaviors. To say you "don't see" it sounds like tunnel vision.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I completely agree they are, but if that's going to be your response then nothing is ever scummy.

Well, no. Because there's a difference between saying someone is scummy and saying "X and Y cannot both be town." They can be scummy-- in the sense that they are more likely than random to be scum-- but to say that they can't both be town is a much stronger claim and to me indicates bias.

Pedit: that's great Auro. Where is that from?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I'm not following the acryon case at all.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I still think Titus is scum. I wouldn't consider Rex's thing a slip per se but I'm having a hard time imagining that pair of posts as coming from town and the weird and rigid way Titus has been applying VCA today doesn't help with that.

Which Titus post did you think was towny? 1909?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I mean, that is sorta the definition of a "slip", no?

Well, I would reserve the word "slip" for something that was actually accidental. But the difference is academic, it's scummy.

Titus' post about how once she's lynched to follow XYZ lynches. I don't really think her VCA application is scummy. She feels similar to Doubles Mafia (do ISO her there).

I might look at Doubles while it's not 2am, but I'm pretty sure that kind of thing is well within her scumrange.

For a while assume she's town and let's solve?

Controversial opinion, I actually think skitter looks way worse on a Titus townflip than on a Titus scumflip. If she's scum with Titus she's basically betting the game on being able to deflect the vote away from Titus, but her reasoning is vague and she isn't pushing a counterwagon. That is much more of a whiteknighting archetype than a partner defending one.

Actually the more I think about the more I feel like skitter/Titus isn't a viable team. I'll have to talk to lilith about this because I think that's her solve atm.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If you're talking about the section on you in 1942, I wouldn't really call that a case because it's just a (colored) description of your behavior and it doesn't explain why that behavior is more likely to come from scum.

I don't think the characterization is accurate, but I don't think the mischaracterization is scummy because you're not an easy target so it doesn't really advantage scum-her to build a weak case on you, meaning she believes her arguments to be reasonable regardless of alignment.

That was a lot of words to say "it's null", lol.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

BBmolla has posts that seem to indicate to me that he is thinking about the game.

O...kay? I've seen some unflattering things said about people's scum capabilities but this may be the worst

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I do think I get the type of read you're trying to explain, though. It's just a generic solve-y feel that you can't really give specifics on. I've had those before; they tend to be more indicative of player skill in general than of alignment.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Well, sure. But scum can still produce thoughts that might be similar to what they would think as town, and a lot of times it's hard to tell the two apart.

If you could pick a few of the posts you linked and try to explain why they're towny, that would be good.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

That's possible, but I'm not sure that Eve's posts feel empty because of a lack of skill.

Or a different playstyle, perhaps. I'm not gonna call myself great at mafia but I am pretty experienced, and my posts get called empty a lot because I have an unusual playstyle.

Also, I don't think empty posts are really a scumtell. Scum have just as much incentive as town, if not more, to put substance in their posts.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think 273 is a really good town-thought. Attempting to see if people are just letting scum!you sneak by because of effort.

That's interesting. That's the kind of post that I think most people would call out as scummy because it's trying to break down a universal townread and keep us in the lynchpool.

I would disagree with that hypothetical argument, but I also disagree with the claim that it's a town-thought, because it very well could be that he is scum who thought the townreads on us weren't justified and wanted to try to attack them. Being scum and seeing people be right for the wrong reasons can be very annoying.

520 similarly is asking people to re-evaluate their reads. These kinds of things feel very town to me, because they're not driving an agenda as much as they are making each person do something on their own and also challenging popular reads.

This one is more reasonable, since we know that the read he was challenging was wrong and this was before Allo softed.

But I wouldn't really call these posts as having a genuine thought process that is solving-motivated and hard to fake, like you seemed to be implying. I think it's more that you think that's the type of post that scum probably wouldn't want to make, in the second case because they would want the Allo mislynch to go through. That does make sense, but it's also WIFOM since of course scum want to do things that it doesn't look like scum would do. But I do agree that 520 is > rand town.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

AH, where is the acroyn case?

VOTE: Eve

why are you voting Eve?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

titus, are you townreading auro or GL now?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If acryon is telling the truth about not seeing the soft then my point is moot. He was talking about getting back to an Allo wagon before the nom deadline wagon happened though, like it wasn’t just the one vote I’m talking about.

sorry i'm still not following
allo wasn't really viable at that point, i don't think that scum thinks that they were going to get that deadline lynch there really

especially since acryon knows he's vla over the weekend and wouldn't be able to nudge people in that direction

GuiltyLion's vote park looks like scum to me regardless of your alignment, so I want to start there too.

interesting.
which votepark, the current one on karnage?
because the obvious followup is why is my votepark not scum indicative too?

Now I'm going to run the numbers if GL is town.

Very little wagon participation suggests Karnage is town.

why tho?
why aren't scum piling on in this case?

We look at how Skitter treats the thread. First she tries to explain to TLDNE that a mislynch on Allo was impossible. Look at the tone she takes. It's not hostile but is matter of fact. It's not pockets. It's just stating an inconvenient truth.

Second, look how Skitter treats me. I am practically the only slot TRing him and she doesn't try and build me or my logic up. Instead, she tries to analyze my posts.

I don't think any of this is obvtown...

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

You recognize that one inconsistency doesn't mean they're auto scum, yes? It's possible to find a top townread of yours say something that felt off, and ask them to make sure?

@Smart: While such reads are definitely a thing, I feel like the conclusions of these reads with their confidences feels pretty off from Crayon. He's pushing people for things like "they questioned X slot but also said X is town", or "they pushed Y slot, but didn't have a vote on them", this is ick.

I think this is actually a pretty big misrep from you.

Can you clarify what you're saying that auro is misrepping?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Acryon what happened to your Eve scumread? You spent most of D1 voting Eve and still seemed suspicious of her D2, but have barely interacted with her or pushed her today

My big problem with Eve is I just can't make a case based on her play. D1 and today as well has been uninspiring from her, but it's just a lot harder to move on because there's so little there. I frankly have very little reason to believe Eve is town based on her posts, but I just don't know where to start on a case against her.

I just don't think I can get behind a Titus lynch today.

VOTE: Eve

How about we try this. Someone tell me why Eve is town.

Lol what..

Previously you said you thought Skitter/Rex was the scumteam, what changed?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Votecount 2.7

Target	Wagon
Titus (3)	The Limit Does Not Exist (1635), Eve (1847), BBmolla (1903)
acryon (2)	Atarashi Hajimari (1660), Auro (1929)
GuiltyLion (1)	Titus (1514)
Not Voting (3)	GuiltyLion (1780), acryon (1820), skitter30 (1877)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. The Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-14 17:47:59).

eve is also voting acryon. i'm rather suspicious of this wagon ngl

Are you trying to say acryon is a scum counterwagon to eve? pushed by an Auro/Eve scumteam?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

What about it don't you like though? Do you think anyone on the wagon is scum?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Acryon isn't the counterwagon to Eve, Eve is the counterwagon to Acryon.

And acryon was the counterwagon to Titus. What's your point?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

This line of thinking.

Skitter didn't say anything about counterwagons, why did you bring them up?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Titus didn't imply it was a counterwagon. I thought she was saying that since you both jumped on acryon within a few pages of each other, then by VCA you probably weren't teamed... unless you felt super threatened by acryon and really needed him dead.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Eh, Smart, are you confident on Titus? You did think Skitter was suspect if Titus was town. Where did you arrive at if Titus is scum?

I don't know if "confident" is the word I would use. I will say that your case on Rex has been the only thing I actually felt good about this game. If you feel more strongly about skitter being scum, I wouldn't be opposed to switching, if lilith is okay with it.

And if Titus flips scum, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. In that case, you're almost certainly town, skitter is probably town, acryon is probably town.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

why is acryon probably town on a Titus scum flip?

Because acryon is probably town, full stop. His play has been dynamic and snarky, and he's made a lot of enemies and poked at a lot of different things rather than pushing any consistent agenda or trying to fly under the radar.

Lilith disagrees with me but at the very least I feel like he's not a good wagon today.

And acryon to answer your question about Eve I don't really townread her and wouldn't object to joining her wagon if it came to that.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

@Titus, do you see an Eve/bbmolla team?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I feel like scum!Eve would have kept Auro alive because he was defending her against skitter and Titus yesterday. Like knowing that she was the counterwagon to two town wagons, wouldn’t the best play be to keep someone around who’s been townreading/defending her? Unless the team is like... Eve/skitter or Eve/Titus and the partner is bussing.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Well that wasn’t as helpful as I thought it would be, I just realized both skitter and titus are voting Eve.

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

VOTE: skitter

acryon wagon was awful btw

hi, why

One of you or Titus is scum and I decided to go with you, but let's swap

VOTE: Titus

But as Titus said, neither skitter nor Titus were on the acryon wagon...? How was the acryon wagon awful and how does people being on the acryon wagon impact your reads?

- Smarter

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

acryon wagon was awful btw

+1

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Nice, BBmolla is town.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

BBmolla > GL > AH > Eve > Titus > skitter.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Of course I'll listen. I can't guarantee that I'll change my mind.

You want to restate the crux of your arguments so that I don't have to go dig for them?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I think you might want to reset on skitter as well, though, because if you're town then it looks like she was TMI'ing pretty hard on you.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

How about you case Skitter without stating in general her play sucks or PoE?

The case on skitter is that her play is not very dynamic, it's reactive in a way that I've seen scum-skitter play before (sure she has a rep as a strong scumplayer, but I would say that she played a middling scumgame when we played before), and if you're town, her defense of you is unfounded and feels forced, which makes it look like a TMI.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Mod: Please replace me with Tiger Shark. It's a hydra of me and Shark.

ba… by... SHARK DOO DOO, DOO DOO DA DOO

(Sorry)

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

there's really no reason not to shoot Limit over Auro here unless Auro specifically was pushing scum

This too.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Well, that's false. Scum could have killed Auro specifically so they could make that argument

But that would require GL to be scum which I doubt.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Sorry for the low activity.

We do not feel that skitter is not scum @BBmolla. At least for me that should have been obvious by my readlist.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

The only other thing that should be done (aside from waiting for a replacement) is to look at Titus's case a little more carefully, which I promise I will do. I don't really understand her methods but I do respect her skills.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

i feel very strongly that this is a scum-driven wagon and that we ought to be lynching eve today

Eve isn't really pushing your wagon though? Like she's voting it but not really casing or trying to convince people to switch or anything.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Honestly? I think your most likely partner is Eve.

Certainly I don't think your implication that your partner wouldn't be okay with lynching you holds any water.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I'm gonna have to talk to lilith about this.

My original thought was that Titus was scummy, and if Titus flipped town then skitter was scummy. Titus wagon didn't take off, skitter wagon did, skitter is also scummy but if she flips scum Titus is probably town.

However, Titus and skitter are both probably pushing Eve and you are right that it would be weird to bus that consistently since day 2. So if I think that it isn't skitter/Titus then that makes AH!slot scum? But it's bad to lynch an empty slot. I don't really want to do anything until that replacement is found.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Dammit, now I'm getting paranoid on GL, too. His sudden flip on skitter seems like really convenient especially if she flips town.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I might be giving skitter too little credit in saying that she wouldn't hard-defend her buddy for WIFOM purposes.

I forget, was skitter defending the Rex slot before Titus replaced in? I think she was. I guess it would be conceivable for Titus and skitter to decide to hard align with each other, I know Titus likes to do that and skitter iirc has a pretty strong bussing meta that she'd want to break.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

So in summary, I'm reevaluating all my reads and having an existential crisis.

Also, the other reason not to vote Eve is that if Eve/skitter is the team they're clearly depending on skitter to endgame.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

right, i've put this out there several times but none of the people pushing me have addressed it:

- my actions don't make sense as partners with titus
- nobody has a credible partner theory for me other than titus

so like ... who am i even scum with?
what has scum!me been doing all game
scum!me does not explain how this phase and the last one have played out really

the people pushing me have not addressed or answered these points

Aside from the fact that I think you are a competent enough scumplayer to play the way you have with Titus for WIFOM purposes, is there a reason you couldn't be with AH!slot?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Well, that was with lilith, not with me. And it's possible to not like a scumread without having a townread on the person. But I guess even that would still count as "defending" them.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

i think you ought to be looking at rex, not titus

I mean when I look at Rex, all I see is the slip that Auro pointed out, and oh by the way he's dead now.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Holy shit we should have just lynched Titus yesterday. That would have cleared up so many problems.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Why did we lynch acryon?

I need to go back and look at who was responsible for that mess and murderize them.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Atarashi Hajimari, Eve, GuiltyLion, Auro, Titus (hammered at deadline).

Assuming a Titus/skitter scumteam makes this wagon look really weird. Why would they like stay away from it and then kill on it?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Skitter you townread Titus, correct? How likely would you say it is that you're wrong?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If I were able to accept that you and Titus are the same alignment it would make this game a thousand times easier.

I guess now is my cue to read Titus's skitter towncase, then. Let me go look at that real quick.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Okay I definitely think Titus Eve is impossible.

Maybe I just say that if skitter bussed Eve that hard on D2 and managed to get acryon lynched instead then kudos to her?

Eve AH is possible. I guess if skitter and Titus (skitus? Titter?) are both town this is likely.

Eve GL... is also possible, and would explain why GL suddenly changed his mind on skitter when skitter/Eve became the wagons.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Ok wait no I like this.

Lynch Eve, and if she's town, lynch skitter and Titus, and if she's scum, lynch GL and AH.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I will have to see what lilith thinks of it but it feels pretty solid to me. It only fails if skitter/Titus is T/S in which case shame on whichever of them is T, or if BBmolla is scum which I would be pretty surprised by, or if it's GL/AH and town's just been barking up all the wrong trees all game (and all of Titus, skitter, and Eve are tunneled in on town).

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

skitter's resorting to using "what is scum!me even doing here?" and "who is even my partner?" like we should expect her partner to openly defend her and her to play better as scum - don't fall for it people

I mean, by the same token, would she really expect that to save her as scum? That kind of argument is silly and I think most people know that.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

more like nobody can give a cogent narrative for what scum!me is doing or what my partner is doing while all this is going down

I mean this is not exactly a glowing indictment of why you aren't scum with the AFK slot.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

again i spent a while trying to lynch that slot ...

You voted Karnage on D1 and then switched off a page later. Then you voted him again at the start of D2.

That could very well be a bussing a weaker teammate archetype.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Yeah I was just about to correct you. I'm not voting because I don't want a lynch while we have an AFK slot, and I wouldn't vote without consulting lilith first anyway.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Not feeling Eve/GL.

Why not? I think GL's sudden flip on skitter makes him Eve's most likely partner (and well, the second most likely partner is you).

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I ran my plan (lynch Eve and if town lynch skitter/Titus and if scum lynch GL/AHslot) by lilith and she was on board with it except she didn't think Titus/Eve was unlikely. But that would mean both that skitter is pocketed and Titus is bussing where she really doesn't have to so I do think the plan gives us the best odds of winning.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

And now he's suddenly flipping on skitts today which seems like a terrible plan for GL/Eve. I felt like GL/Eve was coming under a lot of ppl's suspicions so a GL/Eve plan of "Eve hardpush skitts, GL randomly swap to skitts at beginning of day" is a losing plan for them since a skitts green flip would likely be followed by an Eve lynch into a GL lynch

GL has been pretty townread until today though, so I don't necessarily think it's unreasonable for him to think he could win by mislynching skitter and either Titus or you.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I'm fine with hammering, but it still feels like we're having productive discussion, so I'll hold off for now.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Who is Eve's partner exactly if it's not GL...? He's let up on my slot now that I've replaced in. I'm a necessary mislynch for them to win I think

I can answer this question, but you're not going to like it...

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

If we lynch Eve and she flips red, skitts dies, we mislynch GL, BB dies, and the LYLO is Limit/Titus/Morning, would you guys find that even slightly suspicious?

I really can't imagine the benefit to answering this question now.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

alright well as long as you lynch skitter tomorrow first you can hopefully work it out in 3p

I imagine if you're town it's probably just skitter Titus.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

damn we only have a day and a half left, i didn't reallize

We're intending to hammer Eve before too much longer.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I heavily disagree that lynching Titus first is better. If Eve is green we have a pretty good idea in Titus/skitter, whereas if Titus is green then we have to decide between Eve/GL and Eve/MT.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

:X

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I mean, your solve is skitter Titus right? That's our solve if you flip town, and hopefully people pay attention to that if we die.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Okay, I'm hammering in a bit. Anyone have any final things they want to say?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

VOTE: Eve

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Okay now comes the wonderful game of did scum leave us alive because our solve was wrong or just to mess with our heads.

I think the latter is more likely, and in the world where the team isn't skitter Titus I don't think we have the slightest chance of getting the entire town to agree.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

My gut goes back to GL Limit but I am seriously going to kick myself if that's it because I talked myself out of it.

Eh?

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Well, if you think the team is me and Skitter, you should vote hurt Skitter. With enough votes, she'll be forced to vote first. That's a benefit.

I mean I'm fine with skitter voting first but the hurts don't really matter much unless everyone accepts their authority. I'd rather just see where everyone stands before deciding on anything for sure.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

i mean doesn't that argue against skitter/titus from your pov?

Yes, but my point is that it doesn't argue against it strongly enough for me to change my mind about it being the most likely. I played a game not too long ago where scum left me alive all the way to F3 as a confirmed mason who claimed D2, and my reads were not fantastic but it's not like they were awful and my solve going into F3 was correct.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn't make sense to force someone to vote if they aren't confident. Better would just be to have the most confident person vote first, because that minimizes the chance of TvT, and then we can just go from there.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Limit I don’t really want to talk to the others cause 66% of them are scum

I mean it doesn't mean that talking to them isn't valuable.

-Smart