Mini Normal 2139: No Flavor Allowed - Game Over

[Ircher]

Day 1 VC #10

Umlaut (0):
clidd (1): LuckyLuciano (32)
Hoctac (0):
Persivul (0):

Ragman Saul Rima (5) (L-2): farside22 (170), Persivul (172), Reundo (190), Klick (211), clidd (214)

valoneast (0):
brassherald (0):
LuckyLuciano (3): Zulfy (38), Umlaut (125), Ragman Saul Rima (127)
farside22 (0):
Klick (2): Hoctac (135), SirCakez (292)
SirCakez (0):
Not Voting (2): brassherald (255), valoneast (274)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch a player.

This phase will end on May 19, 2020 1:00 PM EDT (GMT-4:00) or in (expired on 2020-05-19 13:00:00).

Moderator Notes

1. If you have regular weekend V/LA, you must either notify me each time or set V/LA tags each time.
2. This game will use a combination of manual and automated votecounts. (The automated ones are made using MathBlade's Vote Scrubber.) I will mainly start by posting an automated votecount and then edit in a manual one later. This allows me to spot errors in the automated votecount as well as build the voting history for the game.
3.

Please note the prod timers. You will be prodded after 32 hours on Tuesday-Friday.

[valoneast]

If you are assuming that the person you are testing is scum, you are giving in to confirmation bias. This also ties back to Zulfy's post asking Clidd if there was any reaction I could have given that wouldn't lead him to arguing that I'm town. Clidd didn't seem to have a coherent idea of what sorts of reactions would indicate that I am town, and what sorts of reactions would indicate that I am scum. It felt more like he was scumpainting and he backed off when I called him out on it.

Hmm okay, but don't you have to have a hypothesis first before testing it? When I go into any type of situation I would test against the null hypothesis.

Ahhh, so the fact that Clidd didn't seem to have what a "positive" and "negative" test would look like? That sounds 'bout right, let me reread how his tone changes when he got called out on it.

[brassherald]

[SirCakez]

brassherald is not improving my read on the Atarashi slot. Hate that entrance.

I'm sorry you don't like my stand up specials, I also do magic.

I give you a 2/5 stars on netflix

[brassherald]

Cl-Cl-Cl-Clidd looks like town!

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm going to keep my vote where it's at for now, but I support the Ragman wagon.

Why is this? Why not support the wagon by voting on it? I get that it would be L–1 but is that the only reason?

Nope, it's not the only reason.

[valoneast]

You can take my word for it and keep it in mind later in the game when it's more relevant for me to explain myself, or you can push for my reasoning immediately.

I think this is the worry we all have, why bother revealing this idea anyways? Why not just NOT bring of this argument. IMO I think you were trying a new move and are genuinely frustrated that people are fixated on this idea that you had to "copy your town game to seem town" for whatever reason that is. Your past posts have been all about defending that, and you sound genuinely annoyed/frustrated. Breadcrumbing (I think that's what is called) a little less obvious next time, if you're actually breadcrumbing.

It seemed easier to indicate that my posts were near-exact copies of my posts from a prior game that Clidd was in to illustrate the bad faith in his push.

Could you clarify what you meant when you said that you, once again, had to clarify that you couldn't participate in meta discussions? As far as I'm aware, that was your first time mentioning it.

Huh? Im not sure what you mean when you say Meta. But I think you're talking about my "theory"?

When I play mafia in real life, we generally just chat to see how people feel about each other, the idea is that since the mafia does know some information, they might lean heavier to one side or not, and the general public has no reason to lean any side at all.

I remember that playing in my first game here, but that was 7-8 years ago. What I don't understand are the terminologies. So I started this game quite quiet, as I couldn't contribute to people's playstyle, what "Advanced OMGUS" means and such. And I was genuinely confused as to how to even follow the conversation, let alone how to contribute to it. Leading to my little outburst.

Meta refers to a player's overall tendencies, beyond this particular game. The post I'm talking about is,

Heard my name.

You guys are absolutely going at breakneck speeds here. I know the newb card will get me more flak, but I've been reading every post so far, trying to follow along. I mean, about 50% of the argument is linked to your prior game(s),

which once again

, I CAN'T CONTRIBUTE IN.

Not sure how you guys play your games, but when I've got something to contribute. I will.

Emphasis on the bolded part. You never mentioned that you couldn't contribute to discussions about prior games before, so I'm trying to figure out what you meant when you said, "once again".

Meh, I know it seemed easier, but I think it's the fact people (and I) see that you had to feel like you NEEDED to bring it up before.

Ah, so once again I was frustrated. The game just started, I got the email late (I was teaching), so I was reading and trying to teach, and I thought that with post #23 I made it clear that I was slowly coming around, and mentioning I haven't played for a couple of years, I thought it meant that you all would understand if I couldn't comment on people's Meta (If I'm using this correctly). And when I got "called out", I was angry since people were still talking about you and your meta, I couldn't actually contribute.

[LuckyLuciano]

I feel like i did when i created a game where everyone had 2 votes that they could use to either vote a player twice or split their votes between 2 scum reads. If i could do that I'd vote for cakez too right now.

Talk to me about this read because I'm not seeing Cakez scum at all. He could certainly be efforting more (hey Cakez, you really need to effort more) but he just seems like low-energy town. His tone is pretty free and his impressions of the game look natural and unforced, and he's transparent about being sort of lost.

Cakez makes more of an effort typically. The lack of follow through and really good reads or free following thoughts are missing from him.
IE: this game not the typical town cakez.

I'm disengaged :/
Trying to effort more now

brassherald is not improving my read on the Atarashi slot. Hate that entrance.
I like Lucky's recent posts better. I think it's plausible that he just had foot in mouth.
Klick has done nothing to improve my read there so
VOTE: Klick

Pretty sure the Atarashi slot is town.

[valoneast]

Nope, it's not the only reason.

Arghhh! It's stuff like this. By your posts and our interaction, you seem genuine and logical. But then you say something like this and everyone raises their eyebrows and all collectively go "Huh? Why?". Maybe this is some advanced play that I don't understand. Maybe there's a "King in the palace" type of role in this open game.

... I keep flip flopping on you for reasons like these. XD

[clidd]

Spoiler: Lucky-Clidd-Zulfy Interaction

This is the second opportunity since I've joined the site for a D1 lynch. Make it happen people! (I will not be posting for the rest of page one, in order to support the cause.)

Yet another page 1 hammer opportunity wasted.

This is strange coming from you, Luciano. In the games in which we participated together, your instance at the beginning of D1 was always more logical and pragmatic. This sudden change with comic content is not something that the profile of your playstyle suggests, at least as far as I can see.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

This immediately threw me off because my first few posts were all a deliberate attempt to replicate one of my town openings. As I've mentioned before, I will explain

why

I chose this approach to the game when it becomes relevant. Just note for now that I wasn't looking to play

similar

to that game in my opening, but intentionally wanted to

replicate it post-by-post

. That's about as much of an explanation of my actions as is necessary at this point. Anywho, Clidd's reaction to my opening wasn't one that I expected from him, precisely because he has seen me do the exact things he's questioning. It's immediately obvious that he's faking an attack on me and I find that suspect, hence,

That's funny considering you were in Newbie 1995 and yet you noted my "comedic content" in RVS.

UNVOTE: Persi. VOTE: Clidd.

This post from Clidd indicated to me, at first, that I haven't reacted in a way that I normally would as town,

I'm waiting for your towntell.

Upon rereading, I can see it also could be interpreted to mean that he's performing a reaction test and hasn't gotten sufficient data from my response. I'm not sure how I feel about this interpretation, however, as I don't remember Clidd being a reaction-test sort of player in my previous encounters with him. I think my initial interpretation of his post goes more in line with his next post,

Another observation: the purpose of your post did not seem to clarify a misunderstanding, but to reverse the positions to make an attack. This is a classic scum mentality and you probably know that.

The presumption that I'm coming from a scum mindset doesn't cohere to the neutral starting point of a reaction test performed in good faith. It's also a misrep of what I did, hence my hyperbolic response,

I have literally mirrored my opening to a game we both played in, where I was town, nearly post-by-post. You are scumreading me for doing literally the same thing you have seen me do before, as town. I was going to label this move, "calling out a player making up a reason to attack me that they know to be false". I supposed I will take you input into consideration, as "Advanced OMGUS" rolls off the tongue slightly better.

I wasn't attacking Clidd for attacking me. I was attacking Clidd for attacking me on pretenses he knows to be false.

Zulfy comes in at this point and takes the worst stance possible, in that it misses every important nuance of my interaction with Clidd,

You're copying your town game so scum-reading you is scum?

This three-way interaction ends with me taking a break from the game, Zulfy disappearing after illustrating that all he really cared about was irritating me, and Clidd retracting and claiming he was intentionally misrepping me to analyze my reaction. This is pretty much where I'm at and everything else is going to be me catching up.

Spoiler: Klick's #59

Zulfy is making sense.
VOTE: LuckyLuciano

Clidd's content is good so far, leaning town there.

Initially, I agreed with some of the other posts that this appears opportunistic / scummy,

scum reads on valoneast for the trying to play newb card, klick following zulfy reads as scum too.
I don't know whether to take hotoc seriously or not.

I'm undecided about clidd

vote: klick

Coming from the perspective of knowing Lucky for years outside of Mafia, his frustration reads to me as null-leaning town. He doesn't reach to insulting people unless theres something outside of the game that's bothering him.

Klick's push seems pretty opportunistic though.

VOTE: klick

Zulfy is making sense.
VOTE: LuckyLuciano

Clidd's content is good so far, leaning town there.

Yucky post.

However, I think that Klick's post makes a lost more sense when put into context through some of his later posts. In particular,

Defensiveness and frustration isn't an alignment-indicative trait.

On their own, no.
Scum definitely hate being caught for the wrong reasons, though.

It's not about being reactionary - it's about what Lucky is reacting against.

At this point it has been well-established that clidd's initial claim about Lucky's early play wasn't accurate. Lucky reacted against that.
The question now is, was that reaction from Lucky-town who knows clidd used bad reasoning to come to an incorrect conclusion, or was it from Lucky-scum who knows clidd used bad reasoning to come to a

correct

conclusion?
I believe the evidence makes the latter likely. He's going 'what? this looks just like my town game!' That level of awareness of how you're playing like your town game would definitely come from scum. It wouldn't necessarily happen if one were town. Hence, I think leaves Lucky as >rand scum for the time being.

I think that the conclusions Klick arrives at are reasonable when I take into account that Klick's starting point is wrong. Most importantly, (1) I get defensive whenever I think a push against me is utter bullshit, as both alignments. (2) He's not wrong in that the level of awareness I've shown of my town game would be present if I'm scum. What he's missing is that there's town motive for that level of awareness, and I think that deliberately copying my own game post-by-post should show that I'm not looking to mimic a town mindset, but that there's something intentional going on behind the scenes. Klick's only experience with me was a brief replacing in at the end of D1 of one of my first game's onsite, and he quickly died N1. I'm not sure that Klick is aware that I have played mafia for nearly a decade offsite and how intentional most of what I do is. I understand how he reaches his conclusions not knowing that.

I think the way Klick left my wagon supports the idea that he knows he is making a lot of assumptions about my play, and that they could be wrong,

'Opportunistic' is a fun buzzword, especially early-game. I appreciate the insight on Lucky, though.
VOTE: Umlaut

I also really like that Umlaut essentially sees Klick's post the same way that I did, especially with how the path of least resistance is to paint Klick as scummy for their entrance to my wagon. Keep in mind that at the time of the following post, Cakez is trying to get Farside to help sort Klick,

Er, was going to say: I'm not sure I buy this case but I buy it as coming from town.

The problem I'm having is trying to cohere with his later scumreads on me. So he doesn't buy Klick's case, but believes I'm scum for different reasons, which he doesn't think are worth introducing to the discussion (98, 104, 107, 125

Spoiler: SirCakez' #82

VOTE: lucky
Hate his page 2

Clidd is trying way too hard

I'm starting a spoiler here because I feel that people should be suspicious of this post for the same reason they were suspicious of Klick's.

I don't like Clidd's response,

Actually, I haven't even come close to trying yet lol.

It feels to me like Clidd tried really hard to force a read through his reaction test, and then backed off when it failed. I agree with Cakez here and don't like (1) Clidd acting like he wasn't tryharding, and (2) Clidd saying "lol" which is immensely out of character.

VOTE: lucky
Hate his page 2

Clidd is trying way too hard

VOTE: cakez

I like this post, as it shows consistency with how Farside reacted to Klick doing the same thing earlier that Cakez is here.

Spoiler: We're back to talking about my opening

I don't know Luciano's metagame, so I'm not convinced by clidd's argument.
I don't have a problem with #36, but #48 seems off.

Luciano, you are copying a comical approach to RVS for a reason that will be revealed later, and will show clear town motivation?
The fact that you were willingly repeating town posts and then covering up by saying you have reasons which will later be revealed looks like scumtell to me.

Maybe I'll change my mind when I see your reasons, but for now I'm voting for you. Do tell me if I misunderstood your posts.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

This is really off-base with what I'm doing. It's not that I was

willingly

copying my town game. It's that I was

deliberately

and

obviously

copying my town game. I have said that there are town-motivated reasons to do this. You can take my word for it and keep it in mind later in the game when it's more relevant for me to explain myself, or you can push for my reasoning immediately. I think that town is more willing to take people at their word when they bind themselves to doing something like I have, whereas scum is more likely to feel uncomfortable not knowing what town is planning and that discomfort, in my experience, tends to materialize in information-driven pushes.

Spoiler: Persivul's #144

This is the second opportunity since I've joined the site for a D1 lynch. Make it happen people! (I will not be posting for the rest of page one, in order to support the cause.)

Why do you want a page 1 lynch?

Why does anyone ever want a day one lynch? For the memes. As you have a long history of hating fake claims, I have a long history of not giving a flying fuck about day 1. On my old site I played for an extended period of time without even opening my role pm until N1.

Spoiler: Klick's 149

Lucky, is it normal for Atarashi to take people messing around at face value like they are here?

I think it's normal for him, as town, to try to move the game forward into a more serious state where we can properly solve.

Spoiler: Persivul

Another observation: the purpose of your post did not seem to clarify a misunderstanding, but to reverse the positions to make an attack. This is a classic scum mentality and you probably know that.

Didn't clarify a misunderstanding? He linked to a game you were both in, in which he was goofing around early, thus refuting your point. He ALSO made an attack, but there's nothing wrong with attacking someone who just made a false charge.

Not liking clidd.

Accurate.

I have literally mirrored my opening to a game we both played in, where I was town, nearly post-by-post. You are scumreading me for doing literally the same thing you have seen me do before, as town. I was going to label this move, "calling out a player making up a reason to attack me that they know to be false". I supposed I will take you input into consideration, as "Advanced OMGUS" rolls off the tongue slightly better.

You're copying your town game so scum-reading you is scum?

That's a misrep. Mirrored doesn't necessarily imply conscious intent.

Post 36 has you frustrated that copying your town game still has someone see you as scummy. What that Town Game is doesn't matter to me. Post 36 does, though.

Doubling down on the misrep.

That's unequivocally the worst interpretation of my interaction with Clidd possible. Scum-reading me for being comic in my opening, when he's seen me be comic in my opening before, is scummy.

@Clidd, Why did you unvote me?

@Zulfy, it's not frustration.

I copied my town game for a reason.

That reason will be revealed later in the game. At that point you will see clear town motivation for it. If you want to argue that it's scum motivated at that point, go for it. The only thing I'm frustrated about is your clear inability to think critically.

Forget the last couple of posts, apparently zulfy's interpretation was right.

Lucky, if you're town, why did you need to copy your town game for a reason? Wouldn't your normal play necessarily be your town game?

So first, relating the third post to the first two: I agree with the feeling on Zulfy, but disagree with the finer mechanics of what Persivul is saying. I

did

consciously intend to copy

a specific

town game. Persi realizes that Zulfy was right on this. That's not the misrep that Zulfy is making though. The misrep is that I'm claiming being scum-read for copying my town game is scummy. What I argued is that scum-reading me for pretenses that Clidd knows to be false is scummy.

As for the third post, yes, my normal play would necessarily be my town play. There's a benefit, however, to copying

that specific instance

of my town play. It'll make more sense later. Can we all just accept that, hold me to it, and move on?

Spoiler: Lucky's Opening: The Trilogy

I don't know Luciano's metagame, so I'm not convinced by clidd's argument.
I don't have a problem with #36, but #48 seems off.

Luciano, you are copying a comical approach to RVS for a reason that will be revealed later, and will show clear town motivation?
The fact that you were willingly repeating town posts and then covering up by saying you have reasons which will later be revealed looks like scumtell to me.

Maybe I'll change my mind when I see your reasons, but for now I'm voting for you. Do tell me if I misunderstood your posts.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

'Opportunistic' is a fun buzzword, especially early-game. I appreciate the insight on Lucky, though.
VOTE: Umlaut

Klick, I may have missed your reason to vote Umlaut. Can you explain why?

I'm going to call this scum

Farside, are you town? I really want you to be town.

This post was what pinged my vote. The long and the short is that the post read wishy washy.
There is no stance on it as a reason to vote Luciano and frankly it reads awkward as hell given the game state.
I usually see that from awkward scum.

Yup, either Farside is town or I think like mafia.

Spoiler: valoneast

Heard my name.

You guys are absolutely going at breakneck speeds here. I know the newb card will get me more flak, but I've been reading every post so far, trying to follow along. I mean, about 50% of the argument is linked to your prior game(s), which once again, I CAN'T CONTRIBUTE IN.

Not sure how you guys play your games, but when I've got something to contribute. I will.

Once again? Where did you say this the first time, in your mafia PT? Something about active lurking screams scum to me.

Must've missed the link then. But kudos for the heads up.

Just spitballing:

4. Hoctac - I absolutely hate this personality, claiming random shit. Making light of every situation. Generally, just shit disturbing the entire game.
6. Persivul - +1 for being friendly and slightly helpful? Though I'm not sure if this is out of frustration for my lack of game or not.
10. LuckyLuciano - Less scummy the more the game goes on. We'll see.
11. farside22 - One massive post, painting a picture of town to me, but still too early to tell.
12. Klick - Actually, the biggest scumread in my books. He's been bouncing around votes all day here. Seeing what sticks. Just bounces around in what I perceive as a random manner.
13. SirCakez - comes in and out of the conversation a couple of times, never posting anything relevant to the conversation.

How am I less scummy the more the game goes on if I literally stopped playing for two days? I also don't like the "I don't really know what to say in order to townread the guy calling me out, so I'll just give him a facebook like" townread on Persi.

Spoiler: Reundo

Aight, I'm here now. My thoughts on the game so far:

Clidd to me reads pretty obvious town. I didn't really jive with his early accusation of Lucky since it seemed pretty far-fetched, but it did spark a lot of conversation and he didn't let it drag on longer than he needed to, plus he seems thoroughly engaged with the game and has pretty solid reads so far. Umlaut similarly seems like he's actively game-solving with his questioning and commentary here and there, plus I thought his flip-flopping on Hoctac was pretty natural, although he's not as strong as a town-read. Klick I haven't agreed with a lot of his assessments, particularly his stance on Lucky and early SRing of Umlaut, but I do find it easy to see where he's coming from when he lays out his reasoning and reads a lot like an open book. I wasn't a huge fan of Pers early game but I think his catch-up looked towny albeit excessive, and I've agreed with most of farside's takes so far. valoneast is coming off more like newb!town than newb!scum to me so far, and I think his "spitballing" read pretty genuine, although it's not a strong TR atm. Hoctac's tone is pretty hard to read and I'm not quite sure when he's serious and when he's joking, I'm leaning towards him being lynchbaity town for the moment but I'm not putting much stock in that either.

I had early town pings from Zulfy through his interactions through Lucky/clidd thought looking back it wasn't as meaningful as I'd thought and I'd need more from him before I make up my mind. I thought this post from Cakez was kind of towny but otherwise I don't have a strong impression of him yet. Lucky's aggression to me did feel pretty towny at first and looked more like it came from town who was pissed at being misrepresented, but the first sentence of this post does ping me the wrong way. Most of the towny things I saw from Atarashi was their prodding of Hoctac, although I'm not putting a lot of stock in that rn because he's easy to criticize. Their content is OK but seems pretty fakeable by scum. I'm finding Ragman's content pretty underwhelming, and I'm not a huge fan of him prodding other's for their reads whilst not really giving out any himself. I thought this post felt almost like a repeat of valoneast's post (in terms of "I can't read y'all b/c you keep referring to other games", which I don't think is true anyways), and I'm not getting great vibes off of that either. I'm fine voting him for the moment.

VOTE: Ragman Saul Rima

I like this opening, especially calling out that Zulfy's interactions with me and Clidd were largely meaningless and only appear to look valuable. I feel the same way and am glad somebody called it out.

Lucky's aggression to me did feel pretty towny at first and looked more like it came from town who was pissed at being misrepresented, but the first sentence of this post does ping me the wrong way.

Just wondering why? That first sentence just seems like he's trying to use their logic and he's exasperated that people can't follow it.

Admitting to copying his past town game down to the exact post is pretty strange. The only reason it doesn't bother me more is because he claimed he'd reveal the town motivation for that later on, so I'm not too concerned about it atm.

Fucking finally.

Note²: Ragman, describe your reads on the playerlist.

It's too early for me to townread anyone atm, I don't know anybody's metagames.

Scumread: Klick, Luciano

Why is it too early for you to town read people but not to scum-read them?

By your logic, how would you know that say Luciano copying his town game wouldn't be something he usually does as town if you don't know his metagame?

Also, is there more to your Klick SR than him trying to dissuade SirCakez from voting him (ie how are you viewing his other posts)?

As quoted this, I was thinking it was a really good point. As I bolded it I kinda realized that it's sadly likely that a player concludes that copying town meta is scummy and is simultaneously too lazy to check if this is a consistent theme in my play. In other words, for me to find this in particular as a reason to scumread Ragman, I would expect Ragman to exhibit far more effort than he has so far. Do note, I don't think Reundo is scumreading Ragman in his attempt to seek clarification, and I like that from Reundo. It looks like he's sorting before making reads.

Spoiler: Page 11

Note²: Ragman, describe your reads on the playerlist.

It's too early for me to townread anyone atm, I don't know anybody's metagames.

Scumread: Klick, Luciano

Why is it too early for you to town read people but not to scum-read them? By your logic, how would you know that say Luciano copying his town game wouldn't be something he usually does as town if you don't know his metagame?

I'm okay with Luciano copying his town game regardless of whether it's his metagame or not. I found #48 scummy.
A good scum player can pass off as town, so that makes any of my townreads this early meaningless. If I knew about how people would respond as town in other matches, I can back my townreads with better reason. Even without knowledge of anyone's metagames, it is possible to find AI posts, so scumreading can be backed with more reason early on.

Ragman, I need you to describe your impressions on players in addition to your scumreads. I can't Infer anything from your post 221.

zulfy's and clidds' openings seem to me like genuine curiosity to find scum. I find Hoctac's ISO pro town. Persivul, farside and sircakez look neutral to me.

This feels odd to me. If good scum can look town, and therefore your townreads are useless, how are your scumreads valuable? In other words, if scum looks town, and town looks town, then how do you even have scumreads?

Also, I expected far more content when I made this spoiler so it's changing to "Miscellaneous" so that I have a place to put the following post that I've been saving,

Evidently, I am speculating according to my personal interpretation of him, so it is very likely that you will disagree with me. But I don't think it's so healthy to press his slot right now, because I feel it will be more beneficial if he has space to work with us in building reads, at least until we can evaluate him better, assuming he will live the transition from D1~D2 .

@Clidd, why are you assuming that I will die N1?

I'm most confident on Ragman/Clidd right now. I need to check the votecount real quick.

I like your comments, but I don't see anything outside of your scum-rage. The reason I'm townreading you is because of your emotional reaction to my push, especially when Zulfy joined the conversation. So basically from my point of view you are a town with incorrect reads about me and I probably feel that my vote on Ragman intensified your feeling that he would be scum on the Scum!Clidd scenario. In this context, your scumreads start from a distorted perception of the game state, which weakens the accuracy of your general reads on the slots, unless, of course, your evaluation encompasses interpretations outside the speculation that I am scum.

[LuckyLuciano]

Clidd, when have you ever seen me play scum? What's your basis for establishing a scum-range for me?

[clidd]

Clidd, when have you ever seen me play scum? What's your basis for establishing a scum-range for me?

Simple: my imagination. In the same way that I can see that you are town scumreading my slot, I can analyze what your scum game would be like.

[SirCakez]

I feel like i did when i created a game where everyone had 2 votes that they could use to either vote a player twice or split their votes between 2 scum reads. If i could do that I'd vote for cakez too right now.

Talk to me about this read because I'm not seeing Cakez scum at all. He could certainly be efforting more (hey Cakez, you really need to effort more) but he just seems like low-energy town. His tone is pretty free and his impressions of the game look natural and unforced, and he's transparent about being sort of lost.

Cakez makes more of an effort typically. The lack of follow through and really good reads or free following thoughts are missing from him.
IE: this game not the typical town cakez.

I'm disengaged :/
Trying to effort more now

brassherald is not improving my read on the Atarashi slot. Hate that entrance.
I like Lucky's recent posts better. I think it's plausible that he just had foot in mouth.
Klick has done nothing to improve my read there so
VOTE: Klick

Pretty sure the Atarashi slot is town.

?

[LuckyLuciano]

So you have gone to great lengths to defend my reaction to your reaction test as town, based upon your experience with me... and then simultaneously argue that I could be scum... based upon your imagination..?

[clidd]

Yes, half experience, half pattern analysis/imagination.

[clidd]

I use everything at my disposal to have the best accuracy in my reads.

[clidd]

More questions ?

[valoneast]

I like your comments, but I don't see anything outside of your scum-rage. The reason I'm townreading you is because of your emotional reaction to my push, especially when Zulfy joined the conversation. So basically from my point of view you are a town with incorrect reads about me and I probably feel that my vote on Ragman intensified your feeling that he would be scum on the Scum!Clidd scenario. In this context, your scumreads start from a distorted perception of the game state, which weakens the accuracy of your general reads on the slots, unless, of course, your evaluation encompasses interpretations outside the speculation that I am scum.

Once again, it's fine to read someone based on their initial scummyness, but have you read what he's been doing afterwards? I had the same thought as you, but from reading his iso and his willingness to admit his frustrations, (coming from a guy who was also frustrated), does it not seem like he is actually, just frustrated? He willingly admits this! That can't be a scum thing to do can it? it's just TOO obvious I feel. His explanations do seem well thought out. Even if a bit defensive.

Now, you might think I'm defending him, but the fact that he is hiding something does sound off alarms, I just can't imagine a scenario that he's scum!Lucky, but why so many secrets.

Maybe he as scum!Lucky is playing that obviously so that town WON'T lynch. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit?

[LuckyLuciano]

Pretty sure the Atarashi slot is town.

?

You don't know how heavily I was targeted on my old site. I still talk to Atari outside of mafia on a daily basis. He's my DM in D&D. Scum!Atari would see the easy lynch on me and join it to rub it in my face later. Especially because he knows how much I hate getting misrepped. I only see scum!Atari defending me under some crazy pretense that the players in this game, with how poorly they've handled my opening, would then buy an offsite meta driven push against him after I flip green. I also think that scum!Atari prefers town!Lucky dead rather than alive. I see him defending me as having massive opportunity cost from his perspective.

[valoneast]

@Clidd, so help me out. Let's discount that whole initial argument, what do you think about his explanation to me and farside about what he did? Did it seem well thought out, or panicked "omg what have I done?"

[clidd]

@Clidd, so help me out. Let's discount that whole initial argument, what do you think about his explanation to me and farside about what he did? Did it seem well thought out, or panicked "omg what have I done?"

Which post are you talking about ?

[clidd]

I like your comments, but I don't see anything outside of your scum-rage. The reason I'm townreading you is because of your emotional reaction to my push, especially when Zulfy joined the conversation. So basically from my point of view you are a town with incorrect reads about me and I probably feel that my vote on Ragman intensified your feeling that he would be scum on the Scum!Clidd scenario. In this context, your scumreads start from a distorted perception of the game state, which weakens the accuracy of your general reads on the slots, unless, of course, your evaluation encompasses interpretations outside the speculation that I am scum.

Once again, it's fine to read someone based on their initial scummyness, but have you read what he's been doing afterwards? I had the same thought as you, but from reading his iso and his willingness to admit his frustrations, (coming from a guy who was also frustrated), does it not seem like he is actually, just frustrated? He willingly admits this! That can't be a scum thing to do can it? it's just TOO obvious I feel. His explanations do seem well thought out. Even if a bit defensive.

Now, you might think I'm defending him, but the fact that he is hiding something does sound off alarms, I just can't imagine a scenario that he's scum!Lucky, but why so many secrets.

Maybe he as scum!Lucky is playing that obviously so that town WON'T lynch. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit?

I can give you a list of reasons for Town!Luciano in the current scenario, but I would like to focus more on locating who is scum than protecting a townread.

[LuckyLuciano]

Yes, half experience, half pattern analysis/imagination.

This doesn't sound like you.

Anyhoo, can you explain why you assumed I would die N1?

[valoneast]

@farside, it's slightly more nuanced than that. Clidd attacked my opening under pretenses that he knows to be false. He explained that it was a reaction test, but my experience with him doesn't lead me to believe that he's the reaction test sort of player. The timing in which he switched from pushing me to defending me lines up with when I called him out on knowingly making a false attack. I'm also worried that he seemed to have operated under the assumption that I was scum prior to engaging in the reaction test, which doesn't show good faith, and that he seems to believe that I will be killed N1. I'm pretty sure he's said in another game that he would kill me N1 if he was mafia, so him already thinking about that this game is concerning to me. It also requires him to assume that I am town, which doesn't align with reaction testing me, and his presumption of guilt when engaging in the reaction test.

You can take my word for it and keep it in mind later in the game when it's more relevant for me to explain myself, or you can push for my reasoning immediately.

I think this is the worry we all have, why bother revealing this idea anyways? Why not just NOT bring of this argument. IMO I think you were trying a new move and are genuinely frustrated that people are fixated on this idea that you had to "copy your town game to seem town" for whatever reason that is. Your past posts have been all about defending that, and you sound genuinely annoyed/frustrated. Breadcrumbing (I think that's what is called) a little less obvious next time, if you're actually breadcrumbing.

It seemed easier to indicate that my posts were near-exact copies of my posts from a prior game that Clidd was in to illustrate the bad faith in his push.

Could you clarify what you meant when you said that you, once again, had to clarify that you couldn't participate in meta discussions? As far as I'm aware, that was your first time mentioning it.

Huh? Im not sure what you mean when you say Meta. But I think you're talking about my "theory"?

When I play mafia in real life, we generally just chat to see how people feel about each other, the idea is that since the mafia does know some information, they might lean heavier to one side or not, and the general public has no reason to lean any side at all.

I remember that playing in my first game here, but that was 7-8 years ago. What I don't understand are the terminologies. So I started this game quite quiet, as I couldn't contribute to people's playstyle, what "Advanced OMGUS" means and such. And I was genuinely confused as to how to even follow the conversation, let alone how to contribute to it. Leading to my little outburst.

Meta refers to a player's overall tendencies, beyond this particular game. The post I'm talking about is,

Heard my name.

You guys are absolutely going at breakneck speeds here. I know the newb card will get me more flak, but I've been reading every post so far, trying to follow along. I mean, about 50% of the argument is linked to your prior game(s),

which once again

, I CAN'T CONTRIBUTE IN.

Not sure how you guys play your games, but when I've got something to contribute. I will.

Emphasis on the bolded part. You never mentioned that you couldn't contribute to discussions about prior games before, so I'm trying to figure out what you meant when you said, "once again".

I'm also worried that he seemed to have operated under the assumption that I was scum prior to engaging in the reaction test, which doesn't show good faith

Why not? Isn't the point to see if any scum alarms get alerted when doing said reaction test? If you don't trigger it, then the assumption goes away? I'm confused about this.

If you are assuming that the person you are testing is scum, you are giving in to confirmation bias. This also ties back to Zulfy's post asking Clidd if there was any reaction I could have given that wouldn't lead him to arguing that I'm town. Clidd didn't seem to have a coherent idea of what sorts of reactions would indicate that I am town, and what sorts of reactions would indicate that I am scum. It felt more like he was scumpainting and he backed off when I called him out on it.

[clidd]

Yes, half experience, half pattern analysis/imagination.

This doesn't sound like you.

Anyhoo, can you explain why you assumed I would die N1?

I felt that you are TPR and I think that if you really are, mafia has probably been able to reason that out, which is why you would die N1.