Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps [Game over!]

[Auro]

Still Skitter via the earlier argument of scum being in the cop bloc. Apart from me there was Karnage, you and Skit; Skit would be my choice here.

While I do agree you're playing to town meta in multiple ways, I have some paranoia due to your posturing end of D1 (asking to leash to you/Karnage) and a few other reasons that don't come to mind right now.

If both town were in the townbloc, then who? Molla+Eve? Idk, I townread everyone else in it. That would be a difficult re-evaluation.

[Auro]

Auro what would you think if Titus flips town

It's useful to sort this out anyway because I could very well be conf-biased. Why would Eve be scum if Titus is town? I don't see it.

[Auro]

I'll be V/LA for a couple of days, will appear here sparsely probably.

[BBmolla]

VOTE: Titus

sheeping auro

[acryon]

also Titus if you

actually read

D1 and GL/Auro interactions you'd also see that we're pretty transparently not partners, I'm not capable as scum of faking the level of frustration I felt with him and the degree to which we engaged about the game on a wide variety of fronts

Shoot this pings.

[Titus]

I have real life today.

If I get lynched, do not dare touch a hair on AH, acryon, skitter or TDLNE's heads.

I would strongly recommend GL lynch.

If that flips scum, turbo lynch Auro. If Auro flips town, look at Eve.

If GL flips town, look at BBMolla.

[Auro]

UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

also Titus if you

actually read

D1 and GL/Auro interactions you'd also see that we're pretty transparently not partners, I'm not capable as scum of faking the level of frustration I felt with him and the degree to which we engaged about the game on a wide variety of fronts

Shoot this pings.

pings in what sense? That you disagree with it, or that scum is more likely to say it?

Our ISO combined has 570+ posts, of which I'd guess conservatively at least 80-100 (if not more) are us directly talking to each other, often walling, and constantly pushing for further explanation or pressuring on thoughts.

Again, look at the last scum game I played with Atari, we sent maybe 5-6 total questions towards each other and they were all pretty tame one-liners. I'm an engineer, not a drama student, I'm straight up not capable of the degree of theatre required to have the combined ISO I have with Auro this game. Like this would easily be my greatest scumgame ever played if I'm scum with Auro here.

[GuiltyLion]

Auro what would you think if Titus flips town

It's useful to sort this out anyway because I could very well be conf-biased. Why would Eve be scum if Titus is town? I don't see it.

on this -

the only thing Titus has said that I've liked so far is when she acknowledged that if she was wrong on both of us, that Eve was probscum for "sucking up and leaving". I do think Eve's interactions with her don't strike me as likely to be T-T, and I also think Eve fits a good POE candidate if I've been off so far on both scum!Karnage and scum!Titus

[Titus]

Auro what would you think if Titus flips town

It's useful to sort this out anyway because I could very well be conf-biased. Why would Eve be scum if Titus is town? I don't see it.

on this -

the only thing Titus has said that I've liked so far is when she acknowledged that if she was wrong on both of us, that Eve was probscum for "sucking up and leaving". I do think Eve's interactions with her don't strike me as likely to be T-T, and I also think Eve fits a good POE candidate if I've been off so far on both scum!Karnage and scum!Titus

I forgot this. Add Eve back into my post.

[acryon]

also Titus if you

actually read

D1 and GL/Auro interactions you'd also see that we're pretty transparently not partners, I'm not capable as scum of faking the level of frustration I felt with him and the degree to which we engaged about the game on a wide variety of fronts

Shoot this pings.

pings in what sense? That you disagree with it, or that scum is more likely to say it?

Our ISO combined has 570+ posts, of which I'd guess conservatively at least 80-100 (if not more) are us directly talking to each other, often walling, and constantly pushing for further explanation or pressuring on thoughts.

Again, look at the last scum game I played with Atari, we sent maybe 5-6 total questions towards each other and they were all pretty tame one-liners. I'm an engineer, not a drama student, I'm straight up not capable of the degree of theatre required to have the combined ISO I have with Auro this game. Like this would easily be my greatest scumgame ever played if I'm scum with Auro here.

Things I disagree with don't ping. Scum pings.

Self-meta makes me very uncomfortable. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like proactively offering up reasons for why you would or wouldn't do something as scum. It's total WIFOM, and I don't think town really needs to do it.

[Auro]

being aware of one's own capabilities isn't a bad thing

[GuiltyLion]

I don't like proactively offering up reasons for why you would or wouldn't do something as scum

Why do you say it's 'proactive'? Titus was saying Auro/GL are distancing partners based on our behavior in response to her.

in response to that

, I pointed out that I believe the entirety of our D1 play is outside of my scumrange. That's not proactive, it's a direct rejoinder to a claim that she made

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Self-meta makes me very uncomfortable. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like proactively offering up reasons for why you would or wouldn't do something as scum. It's total WIFOM, and I don't think town really needs to do it.

I disagree. Self-meta can be untrustworthy, but if you're town the worst thing that will happen is that people ignore your self-meta. If you're scum and you lie, the worst thing that can happen is you get called out and lynched-- and because of that, self-meta is accurate a lot more often than you would think.

I'm no expert on scum-GL, but I have played a few games with him as scum (I think? Maybe it was just TM2018 actually). I don't recall him going out of his way to have long drawn-out interactions with his partners. Doesn't mean he's incapable of it, but I'm inclined to believe that he'd have to be having an awesome scumgame to pull that off. (Which is possible. In Baton Pass I repeatedly insisted that were I to be scum I'd be playing a far better scumgame than I ever had before, which I honestly believed.)

-Smart

[acryon]

being aware of one's own capabilities isn't a bad thing

I'm aware of my capabilities. I don't feel the need to explain them to people as a defense. The overexplaining just feels

odd

.

Pedit: 1823 is what I was referring to with the proactive justification.

It feels nearly impossible here that both Auro and GL are town. I just don't see town defending and interacting the way they have, which supports my initial suspicion in 696.

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Right, I was also scum with him in Newsroom. We didn't interact an especially large amount there, either.

-Smart

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I just don't see town defending and interacting the way they have

Unfortunately, townies are capable of an extraordinarily wide range of behaviors. To say you "don't see" it sounds like tunnel vision.

-Smart

[acryon]

Self-meta makes me very uncomfortable. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like proactively offering up reasons for why you would or wouldn't do something as scum. It's total WIFOM, and I don't think town really needs to do it.

I disagree. Self-meta can be untrustworthy, but if you're town the worst thing that will happen is that people ignore your self-meta. If you're scum and you lie, the worst thing that can happen is you get called out and lynched-- and because of that, self-meta is accurate a lot more often than you would think.

I'm no expert on scum-GL, but I have played a few games with him as scum (I think? Maybe it was just TM2018 actually). I don't recall him going out of his way to have long drawn-out interactions with his partners. Doesn't mean he's incapable of it, but I'm inclined to believe that he'd have to be having an awesome scumgame to pull that off. (Which is possible. In Baton Pass I repeatedly insisted that were I to be scum I'd be playing a far better scumgame than I ever had before, which I honestly believed.)

-Smart

Except the problem is rarely do people actually play significantly differently as scum vs. town, which is why meta is so bad in the first place. I think people play differently from game to game based on player composition, IRL stuff, flow of the game, etc. And that's the stuff that isn't considered in meta reviews.

FWIW, I am not entirely convinced GL vs. Auro is scum-theater, but

something

feels off there and I don't think it's TvT.

[acryon]

I just don't see town defending and interacting the way they have

Unfortunately, townies are capable of an extraordinarily wide range of behaviors. To say you "don't see" it sounds like tunnel vision.

-Smart

I completely agree they are, but if that's going to be your response then nothing is ever scummy.

[Auro]

something feels off there and I don't think it's TvT.

Try putting it into words.

[Auro]

Assume I am town, then think from my perspective what in my interactions with GL should show that he is scum, then vice-versa

[Auro]

Meta is Garbage is Garbage

When did this become a thing? I presume it came out as a reaction to the giant wave a few years back of everyone doing nothing but meta reads (which was also a bit daft) but I'd like to at least discuss some of my issues with the so-called meta issue that I see a lot.

First off, the 'people can change their meta' argument. To that I say, yes, and? People (scum) can game *any and every tell in the book* that's kind of the point of being good scum, doing whatever you can to appear town. Insomuch as I have a scum meta, it is to have it look as much like my town meta as possible, so, yeah, naturally players can and will and should do whatever they can to match metas, just as they should do it to affect any possible tell around. So the idea that scum will attempt to manipulate a tell applies equally across all tells, yeah? Unless the tell is actually objective (and the only ones I've personally found like that tend to be mechanic and voting based - so...y'know, stuff like setup spec and VCA that people *also* whine about. So, first off, this is a dumb complaint when someone uses meta as a tell.

"Meta is garbage!" This is another I hear a lot. I presume people say this because they've seen meta be wrong. Okay, whoop-de-doo, I'm pretty sure I've seen every tell under the sun be wrong. The real question is simply how well supported/researched is the meta being used. Is it from one game? Then maybe it's garbage. Is it from a five year history and 10+ games? Then I'd be awfully willing to buy it (and generally have never experienced people doing a drastic meta shift in some random game to break their meta and own face). So, once again, this makes meta...wait for it...basically like every tell out there.

"I change my meta every game, so I can't be meta'ed" I would suggest this implies you're a bad player, unless your claim is all town game styles are equally effective (and if you think that I'd love to discuss your research and conclusions). I also...well, kinda don't believe this, and even if it is exactly true - then that's your meta, and theoretically tells could be drawn from it even then.

So, basically, stop random attacking meta for empty reasons. If you have an issue with a meta case, describe them. If you can't, then it's probably a perfectly valid case as far as the style the case-maker has chosen.

Also, saying you hate meta is your meta - change it

Also leaving this here

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

I completely agree they are, but if that's going to be your response then nothing is ever scummy.

Well, no. Because there's a difference between saying someone is scummy and saying "X and Y cannot both be town." They can be scummy-- in the sense that they are more likely than random to be scum-- but to say that they can't both be town is a much stronger claim and to me indicates bias.

Pedit: that's great Auro. Where is that from?

-Smart

[Auro]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Thor665

[acryon]

I completely agree they are, but if that's going to be your response then nothing is ever scummy.

Well, no. Because there's a difference between saying someone is scummy and saying "X and Y cannot both be town." They can be scummy-- in the sense that they are more likely than random to be scum-- but to say that they can't both be town is a much stronger claim and to me indicates bias.

Pedit: that's great Auro. Where is that from?

-Smart

I didn't say they

can't

be town. I said I don't see it.

Assume I am town, then think from my perspective what in my interactions with GL should show that he is scum, then vice-versa

I'm not going to attempt to sort through the walls, because I don't have time, but going through your ISO with regard to GL is interesting. It's never entirely clear how you're feeling on him. You seem to call him scummy at points, but never push him. I'm still not entirely sure your read on the slot. You indicated "meh-town" a while back, but recent posts seem to imply you're stronger on that read?

Re: GL

106 is really interesting in this context. Throws some townpoints Auro's way but reluctant to actually give a townread.
509. Here we have Auro as a "meh" read, much like Auro's read for GL.
721 Auro is mentioned in a group of people that we should look into if Allo flips town.

Also I was interested a bit in the whole meta thing, and just for some evidence of how differently people can play as scum, here's two different scum-games of GL's where he played differently, and two quotes from them. So read these and then tell me why GL's self-meta posts should excite me.

i'm definitely lurkier as scum

but it's in a "one post per day" kinda lurky, not "completely offsite for 3 days" kind

also I'm trying to fix that because it's too easy of a meta tell. my last scum game was Gators at the Gates and I was fairly active and fairly townread there - was really only lynched cause four slots confed themselves on D2 and Vedith (the prime mislynch target) hail mary towntold himself at L-1 and I was the deadline compromise lynch before we had time to react.

I tried to play this game a bit more tonally town and less agenda driven than I usually play scum, it got me some townreads but I didn't capitalize well enough with it. sorry Lycan :/