Micro 940: A Normal Blitz II - Game Over

[HoldenGolden]

I do not understand the point of reading into the masons/neighbor/scumteam claim. This game will not be won over role speculation.

Its more trying to figure out if there is a clearer POV to aid in reading than purely basing a read all off their claim.

I'm surprised you didnt spot something on the catch up, but I will have to wait and explain it later.

[HoldenGolden]

you better not be fucking with me, donkey

I fuck with everybody monkey. That's what donkeys do.

[Madoka]

It indicates the opposite.

In what way?

This is scummy.

In what way?

meta garbage pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrttttttttttttttttt

What is this?

[Madoka]

I

think that's probably not alignment indicative. It seems to depend on his motivation.

During a round of Conspiracy, he was similar in tone.

From what I've observed, I think town!Datasi comes alive when he feels he has good insight.

That being said,

perhaps you may be onto something with the Umlaut vot

e.

What did you not like about it.

I presume he was voting Umlaut for the sake of making the wagons even?

?

Was this a way to gague Hoctac's read?

Not what you bolded, no. The line I underlined above, yes.

[Madoka]

Stating that you were just making the wagons even would have been sufficient.

it would've been

sufficient

, but it wouldn't have been

true

. i wanted it known that i'm also slightly suspecting umlaut. which might or might not be a moot point now if they reaffirm the mason claims or not.

Yes, but I'm referring to the degree/lengths of your explanation. For example, you quoted the entire series of posts surrounding your umlaut vote. And then you explained your entire thought process on the Mason claim in long-winded way.

[Umlaut]

Scattered catchup thoughts, not retracting anything btw.

I still think openly disbelieving the claim as opposed to sort of waffling on it and looking at everyone else's opinion is kind of townish, so shiki and Monkey get points for that.

That said, I don't understand shiki's points in 174. Why would Madoka in particular have asked for me to vote you, shiki? Or why would I accept Hoctac's suggestion to vote someone in particular if we were just neighbors and I were town? And why shouldn't I ask Hoctac to elaborate his thoughts in here if I want to see how others respond to them and whether they agree? The benefit I saw it having was just what I said, I don't know enough about Datisi to agree or disagree so I want him to clarify here so others can agree or disagree.

Datisi's 167 and 175 are a bit towny, 178 is whatever, 183 and 186 seem like he's just repeating what shiki said which would ping me if he were pretending it's an original thought but in fact he admits it's not so it's fine.

i'd guess these setups are pulled at random from the approved premade setups.

Someone can tell me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the premade setups are single-use, so this is not one that has been played before (unless it just happens to coincidentally be the same as some random game from four years ago or something)

Hiraki is not super easy to read but his handful of posts seem fine to me, though I would like him to be more verbose with his reactions. I like that he says he's in the same place I am on reads in 160 because we've been in the same place like that in past games where we were both town.

The HEM-HG spat seems to me like it can easily be TvT. I totally buy "trying to more aggressively push my scumreads" as a kind of change someone would deliberately make as town, and I totally buy that HEM would be pinged if HG's playstyle changed that way. What does bother me a bit is HEM voting him in 210 after HG has already explained this, and then unvoting in 223 after the explanation.

@HEM

What changed for you between those two posts?

Out of active players, I'm kind of suspicious of George Bailey because I'm not seeing any towntells there, and also his approach to the claim was pretty wonky. I note that after Datisi said "stop asking about that" he stopped outright even while everyone else kept on about it, and when he did comment on it again it seems like he sort of had to because that was the only topic atm. This suggests he's worried about how he looks, and also discounting the neighbor suggestion kind of makes sense if he already knows neither of us is scum.

Need to think more of Madoka, they're just dead-null right now

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

[humaneatingmonkey]

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

[humaneatingmonkey]

@HEM What changed for you between those two posts?

i was satisfied with the interaction and i no longer thought HG was being disingenuous.

[Datisi]

Umlaut, why do you find my 167 towny? What do you make of Madoka finding it scummy?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Umlaut, why do you find my 167 towny?

Do you see a perspective in which it's scummy?

[GeorgeBailey]

yes you seem more accusatory and it's pinging me

you're scum, aren't you?

VOTE: HoldenGolden I think this is scum

??? This is a really strange progression.

Why is that scum indicative of him? He's literally just been asking questions to get people to be more transparent with their reads.

[Datisi]

Umlaut, why do you find my 167 towny?

Do you see a perspective in which it's scummy?

sure, level 0 thinking of "overdefensive = scum".

[humaneatingmonkey]

Spoiler:

yes you seem more accusatory and it's pinging me

you're scum, aren't you?

VOTE: HoldenGolden I think this is scum

??? This is a really strange progression.

Why is that scum indicative of him? He's literally just been asking questions to get people to be more transparent with their reads.

I remember town!HG to be more "commentative/cooperative" than "accusatory/aggressive" and seeing that distinct change in personality almost immediately after our last game gave me the heebeejeebies

[Madoka]

Datisi, do you agree then that it was overdefensive?

[GeorgeBailey]

/

I note that after Datisi said "stop asking about that" he stopped outright even while everyone else kept on about it,

Could you show me where Datisi says this? I only remember him saying "You can't just ask that" and then I talked about it more.....

and also discounting the neighbor suggestion kind of makes sense if he already knows neither of us is scum.

I discounted it because Neighbors claiming mason seemed very anti-town to do.

[Madoka]

Also, rude!

[humaneatingmonkey]

Compare this to this.

Although I think I buy that the change in playstyle can come from town!HG. I think scum!HG would focus more on defending that he isn't off his town game than outright saying he changed his playstyle.

[Datisi]

Datisi, do you agree then that it was overdefensive?

it was more defensive than it needed to be, sure. i'm perfectly aware i could've "gotten away" with only "lol wagon make even".

[shiki]

I can't think of a reason the Neighbors would co-ordinate a Mason fake claim, especially if they don't know each other's alignment (Neighbors usually don't right?).

let's assume we are masons. i claim our masonry in the main thread, and you are frustrated by this. i would expect you to open the mason pt and ask me why i did so, as opposed to making a show of it in the game thread, as doing so only compounds the issue that has led to your frustration.

now let's assume we are mafia. i claim masons with you, my mafia partner. i would expect you to open the scum pt and let your cat walk across the keyboard a few times before clicking submit. reacting otherwise seems unwise.

now let's say we are neighbours and you are town. i suggest we claim masons, you ask why, i give examples of similar claims used effectively as scumhunting and say it is fun. this seems somewhat suspicious of me but it is plausible you go along with it. in this situation do you think you would oversell your frustration?

now let's say we are neighbours and you are mafia. i suggest we claim masons. this is a very beneficial situation for you, as only having me evaluate your towniness is good if you think you can convince me you're town. in order to do so i assume you react very skeptically towards the idea but go along with it under the guise of sorting my slot specifically. in this situation do you think you would oversell your frustration?

i think hoctac would propose neighbours claiming masons or perhaps even do so without proposing it as holdengolden suggested regardless of alignment.

shiki is HG town?

it is very difficult for me to read holdengolden. he has seemed productive to me which i think is town indicative for him but the holes he is saying there are in the mason claim interpretations seem to simply be him not taking into account town or scum motivations for it, which could be malicious.

Shiki is HEM town?

i am townleaning monkey. he didn't give a really forced scumread on an rvs vote the way he did in both the last blitz game and newbie 1996 and i don't think mafia would be so eager to celebrate a recent scum victory. he also seems less mechanical (for lack of a better word) here than last time.

That said, I don't understand shiki's points in 174. Why would Madoka in particular have asked for me to vote you, shiki? Or why would I accept Hoctac's suggestion to vote someone in particular if we were just neighbors and I were town? And why shouldn't I ask Hoctac to elaborate his thoughts in here if I want to see how others respond to them and whether they agree? The benefit I saw it having was just what I said, I don't know enough about Datisi to agree or disagree so I want him to clarify here so others can agree or disagree.

madoka had just made her first post in the thread immediately proceeding your scumread of me, which didn't have anything to do with current events but rather from looking over my iso. like you were looking for a reason to give a scumread. if you and hoctac were neighbours and you were town it is possible that hoctac thought i would correlate these events and gave you that reasoning beforehand, which i assume town!you would have evaluated and potentially reached the conclusion that it was a good way of scumhunting, since you were seemingly already using your vote to create pressure. it felt more like you were trying to evaluate hoctac than datisi to me, which would be a very strange thing for a mason to be doing.

[GeorgeBailey]

Compare this to this.

Although I think I buy that the change in playstyle can come from town!HG. I think scum!HG would focus more on defending that he isn't off his town game than outright saying he changed his playstyle.

He seems a lot more jokier and laid back in that Newbie game, so I think I can see what you mean.

I just see it as this game being faster paced which I think affects most people's play style in a way.

[GeorgeBailey]

now let's say we are neighbours and you are town. i suggest we claim masons, you ask why, i give examples of similar claims used effectively as scumhunting and say it is fun. this seems somewhat suspicious of me but it is plausible you go along with it. in this situation do you think you would oversell your frustration?

now let's say we are neighbours and you are mafia. i suggest we claim masons. this is a very beneficial situation for you, as only having me evaluate your towniness is good if you think you can convince me you're town. in order to do so i assume you react very skeptically towards the idea but go along with it under the guise of sorting my slot specifically. in this situation do you think you would oversell your frustration?

Ah, alright. So this is based on them overselling it. The townie motivation is to evaluate your partner then, correct?

I can see why Hoctac would do that then, It's just never something i've seen before so it's not really that obvious to me.

[Hoctac]

monkey's progression and read on Holden reads as kinda fake for me from the last couple of pages. Gut feeling.

[Hoctac]

My gut is made of steel though fwiw

[Hoctac]

Hey, George, give us a shotgun readlist! Go go go

[GeorgeBailey]

A lot of gut feelings around here. You sure you all don't have tape worms?