Newbie 2003: Earth [game over!]

[DkKoba]

enomis has to ignore everything i did except for the doc claim to try to get me lynched so they can setup their 3 way tomorrow. God i have never seen such dishonest analysis in a single game.

[DkKoba]

At this point with enomis' bullshit posts when he came back it makes me unsure on votato bc it rly looked like he set up a chainsaw attempt on votato and now i want him lynched first.

[Datisi]

Official Vote Count 3.05

---

With 5 votes in play, it takes 3 to lynch.

Lynching

DkKoba

(2): votato, enomis

votato

(1): Maduisha

enomis

(1): DkKoba

Not Voting

(1): Apogee

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-05-30 13:10:00).

Mod notes:

• ...

[/area]

[DkKoba]

Official Vote Count 3.05

---

With 5 votes in play, it takes 3 to lynch.

Lynching

DkKoba

(2): votato, enomis

votato

(1): Maduisha

enomis

(1): DkKoba

Not Voting

(2): Apogee, enomis

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-05-30 13:10:00).

Mod notes:

• ...

[/area]

sch4o

[DkKoba]

Official Vote Count 3.05

---

With 5 votes in play, it takes 3 to lynch.

Lynching

DkKoba

(2): votato, enomis

votato

(1): Maduisha

enomis

(1): DkKoba

Not Voting

(2): Apogee, enomis

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-05-30 13:10:00).

Mod notes:

• ...

[/area]

Enomis can vote and not vote at the same time? :O

[Datisi]

Looks like it, yeah.

Fixed.

[DkKoba]

i wish our timezones better supported discussion for apogee / maduisha.

[votato]

do you? because you havent really made any effort to interact with them

[DkKoba]

Holy shit votato i swear to god you are acting just like quick and purposefully ignoring everything i have done minus what you perceive as "scummy"

[DkKoba]

I literally hopped off u bc i think enomis is chainsawing the lynch bc it looks likely u are getting lynched and setting up for tomorrow.

[Apogee]

DkKoba how do you take 790 with Joqiza calling for Enomis (his "hardest scumread") to be lynched d1? I think that and a few of their other d1 interactions would be extreme coming from a scumpair, even one that is experienced and wants to play a gambit.

[Apogee]

Also here are where my thoughts are on votato/joqiza. I'm inclined to think this is still the right lynch today but I'm really not sure anymore.

My main concern is the evolution of joqiza's read on votato over time froom:

light townread with concerns of scummy behavoir -> light townread -> haven't looked at his slot -> was probably town -> votato has done scummy moves at the start of d2 but I still townlean him -> votato OMGUS I'm voting you. That all feels pretty distancy and within the range of scum. I'll look at how votato considered joqiza next.

Votato since this is associative I'm not sure you have a ton of defense on this, and I know parts are beyond your control, so I'm going to look at your takes next and then move on to looking at DkKoba again.

Again, it might not be possible to have happen but I still think my prefered POE is votato/DkKoba. I don't really know how but seems I've fallen (or at least it did until Koba moved onto enomis) into the role of the hammer.

[Apogee]

Votato one thing you could explain is why you've used some really WIFOMY reasons that you seem to conclude flip in your direction a couple times (I.E. midwaybear death and DkKoba fake cop claim, although really I'm most interested in why you thought midway's death cleared you).

[DkKoba]

DkKoba how do you take 790 with Joqiza calling for Enomis (his "hardest scumread") to be lynched d1? I think that and a few of their other d1 interactions would be extreme coming from a scumpair, even one that is experienced and wants to play a gambit.

we don't know how he was going to react if a real wagon formed but I see at the time that it really wasn't going anywhere. For all we know joqiza was going to disappate it.

joqiza is experienced in scum theater, and I wouldn't put it past him.

Also Random thing but I realized the joqiza thing being read in your megapost was not as deep when i reread u and saw u also copied MWB's thing, which made me realize u were just adopting other people's styles and thus that made sense theree.

[DkKoba]

DkKoba how do you take 790 with Joqiza calling for Enomis (his "hardest scumread") to be lynched d1? I think that and a few of their other d1 interactions would be extreme coming from a scumpair, even one that is experienced and wants to play a gambit.

i really hope votato flips scum for the sake of my sanity bc I don't see anyone sheeping my read on the recent development.

its just hard when theres at least 1 confiremd town within 2 people pushing on u with the worst logic possible.

[DkKoba]

wait how did that quote again lmao

[Maduisha]

Now let's get to where I find problem with DkKoba's logic.

First I have no problem with the gambit as doc trying to draw the kill from scum.
Unlike votato, The hard claim of doctor and backtracking could still be from town is still NAI because I can see DkKoba doing this as a reaction test.

But What I have problem with is his response and logic after the reaction test:
1)

Logic not consistent

His post straight after.

3. enomis if I was the docotor I am a very likely roleblock target. I am probably speaking from EM experience but your explaination is better than votato's "lol youre not doc".

And his post a few posts later:

if scum somehow was ballsy enough to get a doc read and roleblock-kill cop then i applaud them but doc would still know they were known and it would stilll work as a rxn test.

Shows that he is not even consistent in his thinking of reaction test. If DkKoba is trying to do a reaction test, I will think his mindset and logic would be a lot more consistent.

2)

Didn't think through his reaction test plan.

I do not believe anyone else doc told this game that is why I would challenge another doc claim and go all the way and get them lynched.

The reason why DkKoba didn't think through the plan is a scumtell is where it usually is NAI is because DkKoba will think about what should happen if a doctor was to cc him.
Instead a scum would know that there is no doctor and thus be caught not thinking it through and have to give me a response on the spot.
So here's why the logic is wrong.
a) Would a doctor really doctor tell? Isn't it a doctor role to stay hidden?
b) The doctor that cc'ed him can be a town doctor but he said that he will tunnel the cced doctor to death and lynch him

Here's why the doctor could be town.
i) The doctor could be protecting another person since he thought that SCUM WON'T KILL YDRASSE if there is a doctor.
ii) Given that DkKoba believes that scum will roleblock the doctor, from his pov, there is a chance that the doctor was really roleblocked and cop was killed.
iii) This is literally the

reason

that DKkoba gave on his reaction test.

--------------------

The above is the logic portion. Then there is his other posts.

He calls me scum at one moment. Then call me having no content at the other moment. There is literally no consistent flow of thought here.
Also, he said he is re-evaluating everyone but he didn't even consider Apogee. He keeps mentioning enomis/votato because he thinks that this two are the easy lynch.
Also, his thought inconsistency in DAY 1 which I have pointed out is still there despite him not answering it.

I can also see some post which I get abit of gut town feel from them.

But honestly, the scum points just really outweight the town points.

Also, Because I have Votato and Maduisha as town, this really strengthens my scumread on DkKoba as it is either him/Apogee.

I am still paranoid about apogee tbh because I can see a world where dkkoba is not scum and I am killed tonight. Tomorrow, votato will be lynched.

I'm glad you actually delivered! Thank you for bringing in content even when you said you are not motivated anymore. I'm gonna answer in parts since you addressed this post at Apogee and me and you broke it down in parts yourself.

1) I think there's actually no inconsistency between those two quotes unless I'm missing something. In the first one they say they were likely roleblock target if they were the doctor and in the second one they are talking about an hypothetical scenario in which scum knows their claim is fake + have found the actual doctor through PoE or some other method and saying it'd be impressive. Am I misreading something?

2)

a) Fair enough, I don't think a doctor wants to crumb that they are... but maybe it's useful to set up crumbs so people believe you in case of counter claim? I mostly see masons crumb, but I wouldn't be surprised to see other PRs use them too.

b)

I) That sounds like a logical step for the doctor to make, however in that case there are many night kill targets the doctor can choose to protect and they have no clue who is going to die. The chances of success protecting someone are higher if they target Ydrasse than if they play the lottery trying to protect one of the many other players, because there exists the possibility of mafia roleblocking the wrong person (DK baiting the roleblock in the thread, for example) and still choosing to kill Ydrasse.

II) The chance exists but it's very low. And in the scenario in which the doctor knows they're known by mafia (and therefore never getting to use their night action ever again), if there was a real doctor, then they would have counter claimed DK at the start of this day, considering what happened at the end of D2. A doctor that never again gets to use their night action has no other use for their role than CCing scum, right? So, I think following this logic, it's plausible for town!DK to claim doctor again for the reaction test without it necessarily meaning they're informed of the absence of a doctor because they're scum.

III) I don't exactly know what you're trying to imply with this, but I think after what I explained, saying that they want to lynch anyone that CCed them after the start of the day doesn't sound so illogical, does it? The real doctor would have disclosed it right away, not waited for opportunism to spin the situation on someone else. They are supposed to know they're useless, so why hide it? They wouldn't.

As for the rest of what you wrote, I think you should check the couple pages before your post, because they literally ISOed Apogee and voted them before switching to Votato again... sure, it was a quick change, but I wouldn't say they didn't explore the slot, because they quoted posts that seemed scummy/sounded like coaching from Joqiza, which is a fair point of view that even Apogee admitted.

[Maduisha]

At this point with enomis' bullshit posts when he came back it makes me unsure on votato bc it rly looked like he set up a chainsaw attempt on votato and now i want him lynched first.

Can I ask what the chainsaw term refers to? I checked the wiki glossary and I found nothing... how does scum!Enomis benefit from switching the target from Votato to you if that would mean both wagons are on town? Any lynch should be fine with him, right...

[Maduisha]

Was this a reaction test to see if DK would bite the bait proposal or were you serious? I'm guessing you can answer now since they have already rejected it.

Also, Votato, you speak about DK ignoring your questions, but you didn't answer mine and I'm really concerned about the meaning of that sudden offer. Was it actually serious?

[DkKoba]

At this point with enomis' bullshit posts when he came back it makes me unsure on votato bc it rly looked like he set up a chainsaw attempt on votato and now i want him lynched first.

Can I ask what the chainsaw term refers to? I checked the wiki glossary and I found nothing... how does scum!Enomis benefit from switching the target from Votato to you if that would mean both wagons are on town? Any lynch should be fine with him, right...

rebelling against a nearly sure lynch as mafia that u know is going to flip town because u want to get town cred for it. oftentimes unless u had a good reason before a wagon formed etc.

[Maduisha]

At this point with enomis' bullshit posts when he came back it makes me unsure on votato bc it rly looked like he set up a chainsaw attempt on votato and now i want him lynched first.

Can I ask what the chainsaw term refers to? I checked the wiki glossary and I found nothing... how does scum!Enomis benefit from switching the target from Votato to you if that would mean both wagons are on town? Any lynch should be fine with him, right...

rebelling against a nearly sure lynch as mafia that u know is going to flip town because u want to get town cred for it. oftentimes unless u had a good reason before a wagon formed etc.

But if the lynch you redirected still results in town flip, you would only get towncred from the person you saved. And Votato was already having the same solve as Enomis (you, then Apogee if you flip green). I think it sounds kind of redundant and I'm not sure Enomis has ulterior motives...

[DkKoba]

I think u need to relook at enomis' actions throughout the game. theres a reason they are in my solve. they've shown self preservation as more important over game solving.

this correlates to their spiked activity when they were being pushed.

[DkKoba]

look at his intentions with scumreading me.

he has the appearance of being more interested with jjust getting me lynched rather than solving the game (i.e. refusing to read other slots in the moment + pulling out a BS townread on votato despite scumreading them on d1, which has 0 progresional sense)

[Maduisha]

I agree the spike in activity when he gets voted is a contradiction with the statement he made early on that he didn't care if he got lynched because he lost motivation. I'm a bit torn in that because being afk reinforces the claim that they do not care, but coming back when under pressure is the exact opposite, so I would like Enomis to address this inconsistency if possible...

Also, I know discussing replacement in-game is bad, but it crossed my mind a couple of times that it's weird not to read because you don't care and not to replace out (like Clemency).

[Maduisha]

I think the progression argument is kind of harsh because D1 reads are very far away now. Enomis posted very little, but surely his opinion changed overtime. The main problem would be that... he says he can't explain why Votato is town (likely gut?) and wanting to follow gut alone this far into the game is dangerous and I don't like it, but in complete honesty, I can't see scum backing townreads with gut D3 and expecting not to get shitted on. These kind of attitude tells make me think Enomis is legitimately an uninterested town that is not replacing out of courtesy because the game is 100+ pages long.