Newbie 2038: Elements [Game Over]

[Umlaut]

Vote Count 4.1

Arsenic, ₃₃As

— metalloid, standard atomic weight 74.92, group 15, period 4, p-block

Not voting

(5): MURDERCAT, Mizzytastic, safebet222, Spangled, Egix96

With 5 alive, it takes 3 votes to eliminate.

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-12-03 14:32:00)

[Spangled]

Spangled who is the last scum

I don‘t know. I didn’t really have the time or the inclination to look back through the game yesterDay, and to be honest, I don’t now. But I’ll take a (small) crack at it.

So Mizzy’s definitely town, like I think I’ve said — tone and perspective and logic come together here, really. My opinion on this hasn’t wavered.

MC’s basically conf!town, if you weren’t satisfied with their catch-up. And JDye’s.

As to Egix — I feel like there’s a fair bit of FF-Egix interaction, although the thing is most of it comes from FF. But that’s just a function of Egix’s low postcount, I guess. It’s funny, though, ‘cause Egix made a lot of posts kind of deriding 72, or agreeing with someone doing the same (38 , 431, 463, 547), and then starts a little push on him in 694 and 695, but it kind of didn’t go anywhere. Thing is the gamestate changed so fast, so y’know. I can’t really remember the context around there.

As to safebet — 119 is bold from hunterr if they’re scumbuddies. hunterr also throws around a lot of unfollowed-up-on shade in his brief time — but, it was brief, so he hardly had the opportunity, I suppose. safebet’s initial readslist is, come to think of it, weird; they put c4 in the town lowest level of the town category without mentioning them once in their catch-up, except ‘I don’t think you can make a read on c4’. safebet’s day 1 is, on the whole, strange; I appreciate that they didn’t have much time but the switching from 72 to muh straight to the pig, and then going for pig the next day is weird.

I can’t think about this any more; these are unfinished thoughts. I’ve been around so little, and each time I’ve had time (oh-ho, look at that!) I’ve just done something else. I’ve mostly followed the crowd, this game. I mean, that is what a PoE is, I guess, but I haven’t really looked around enough for myself so I’m sorry. goodnight

[Spangled]

Safebet read muh as neutral but now they're their second favourite elim candidate? What's muh done to move them from neutral to above Pig for an elim? If you think it's 72/muh (don't really think we should be looking at game solves a this point) why not keep your vote on 72?

Fair question...I only have one scum read... I've had my vote there for the better part of 3 days... The wagon isn't going anywhere today... Sometimes you don't get what you want. We have to get moving so I have a choice of 3 other wagons, time for option 2. Even a scum!72off recognizes that.

The question is why would you insist on leaving your vote somewhere that isn't providing pressure to move the game forward?

a parting shot, so to speak — ‘only one scumread’ is so strange; why did you have two other wagons lined up if your scumread wasn’t going to go through?

[safebet222]

MC is conf town...

Mizzy - although isn't confirmed, is almost certainly town due to the N2 jail and her overall gameplay/tone.

Here is a comparison of Egix and Spangled of the points that make them possible scum...

Egix

Spoiler:

No real interaction with C4 except for disagreeing with them on Cyl until

384

. Could be considered distancing. I think Mizzy mentioned this post for a "rule of three". Can you explain?

694

could be seen as not wanting to buss when asked to vote on viable wagons.

1005

again defends the ff/C4 slot in favor of pushing the cyl/Spangled slot.

The last point is that it strikes me as strange the Egix mostly votes when asked... it happened several times, maybe 4. He only vote one time that I could find without prompting. Anyone else find this strange? Not sure if its AI.

The rest of his interactions seems like a consistent push of the cyl/spangled slot which he has a long time scum read on.

Spangled

Spoiler:

51

I'm not sure what this post refers to. It seems really out of place...

cylstar's 198 snapped a thought into focus for me. The confusion and hesitance feels natural, regardless of alignment, but I think some of these questions would have been asked in the Mafia pt if they are scum. Wasn't really scumreading them before, and should have thought this sooner. Maybe would have if I'd been participating/reading in real time.

And looking at FF's post above makes me think that Cyl's #51 was intended for the Scum PT.

111 and 112

C4's chainsaw defense of Cyl. Mizzy you alluded to a possible chainsaw between 72 and Muh in post 149. Please consider this between C4 and Cyl.

219

... This reads list is as about as easy for scum to fake as it gets.. muh and AGP were LHF at the time and Mizzy was already UTR... everyone else is neutral. Seems like Cyl was unsure how to make town and scum reads. This is newb!scum.

295

... this was said before but this is not town mentality... it is appeal to emotion.

324

C4 defends Cyl more.

I also never said I was good at irl mafia. Scumhunting is even harder and my only strategy as mafia is to lurk.

Cyl was a bit lurky... a scum slip?

611

... Spangled is inconsistent with his arguments here... he had pointed out that it was weird for me to townread Egix based on Egix showing agreement with me that 72 was scummy for having so many scumreads. He then proceeds to vote 72 for having so many scumreads and then borrows my scumread merry go round quip. It doesn't add up how both of these sentiments could be genuine.

946

Spangled now defends FF?

952

A scummy push for massclaim.

1127

Now he is backtracking on some of his scum reads as pressure mounts so to relieve it..

There are also a ton of posts from Egix, Mizzy, 72 and MC throughout the game dealing with the Cyl slot that I agree with...

So, now I ask myself, who is more likely to be scum... I don't think its close, even considering Egix's low post numbers.

I ask each of you to line up the evidence on me, Egix and Spangled and ask yourselves the same question...

VOTE: Spangled

[Egix96]

The last point is that it strikes me as strange the Egix mostly votes when asked... it happened several times, maybe 4. He only vote one time that I could find without prompting. Anyone else find this strange? Not sure if its AI.

Yeah, I usually don't vote until I'm very confident.

51 I'm not sure what this post refers to. It seems really out of place...
-snip-
And looking at FF's post above makes me think that Cyl's #51 was intended for the Scum PT.

Personally I always interpreted it as following on from her previous post - it was the figuring out how to format a vote that took her five minutes.

Nevertheless,

VOTE: Spangled

E-1

It's nearly always just him. FMPOV the only other person it could be is safebet, but if so he's played a really clean game since I don't think I ever saw anything particularly scummy from safebet.

[MURDERCAT]

curious to get mizzy's thoughts

[Mizzytastic]

Rule of three is a common scum trick
of when you give thoughts (who is scummy, most town, whatever that isn't a full reads list) you give 3 options and one of them is a partner. It's sort of a rule of thumb for how much info to give. Egix made a post that looked so obviously like that that it pinged me


My general thoughts (pre reread which I hope to do tomorrow with live updates if brain cooperates) are that I'm worried by the lack of paranoia around Spangled. Just, everyone seems OK with it including the only place ff wanted to vote d3. I think ff was town reading 72 cos town reading polarised town to get them into final situations is a really strong strategy. I struggle to see why in that situation you offer up your partner as the alternative. It's a ballsy position to bus from

I don't like Egix explanation of the vote I asked about. Spangled didn't just vote 72, he decided to desperately try to push it through when we were all unvoting. We know now that 72 is town but we don't see Egix reconsidering his position after what would have been the hardest of hard busses from his perspective. And I feel like when choosing between wagons of people you find scummy going with the one your game long scumread is on needs a better reason than "I thought they were partners"

Mostly though it's internal screaming cos I hate being in this sort of position

[safebet222]

I skimmed FF's iso, Mizzy. I don't quite see where FF was ready to vote Spangled, or where FF particularly pushed for a Spangled elim... She played her scum reads pretty close to her vest. You know, "Welcome to Fferyland."

[MURDERCAT]

Honestly I feel spangled will be one of the two elims either today or tomorrow. I kind of feel like it should be today and if the game goes on it's up to Mizzy to win it.
Mizzy it's up to you. If you want more from me before I die (assuming the game continues) just let me know.

[Mizzytastic]

Do you still have a towncase on Spangled after the 72 flip? You were working on it EoD3 and it never materialised.

I'll hopefully produce more for you to bounce off tomorrow, I'm pretty close to bedtime and I've got a headache right now

[MURDERCAT]

I will read the iso, it looks very different after ff flip obviously

[Spangled]

51

I'm not sure what this post refers to. It seems really out of place...

cylstar's 198 snapped a thought into focus for me. The confusion and hesitance feels natural, regardless of alignment, but I think some of these questions would have been asked in the Mafia pt if they are scum. Wasn't really scumreading them before, and should have thought this sooner. Maybe would have if I'd been participating/reading in real time.

And looking at FF's post above makes me think that Cyl's #51 was intended for the Scum PT.

111 and 112

C4's chainsaw defense of Cyl. Mizzy you alluded to a possible chainsaw between 72 and Muh in post 149. Please consider this between C4 and Cyl.

219

... This reads list is as about as easy for scum to fake as it gets.. muh and AGP were LHF at the time and Mizzy was already UTR... everyone else is neutral. Seems like Cyl was unsure how to make town and scum reads. This is newb!scum.

295

... this was said before but this is not town mentality... it is appeal to emotion.

324

C4 defends Cyl more.

I also never said I was good at irl mafia. Scumhunting is even harder and my only strategy as mafia is to lurk.

Cyl was a bit lurky... a scum slip?

611

... Spangled is inconsistent with his arguments here... he had pointed out that it was weird for me to townread Egix based on Egix showing agreement with me that 72 was scummy for having so many scumreads. He then proceeds to vote 72 for having so many scumreads and then borrows my scumread merry go round quip. It doesn't add up how both of these sentiments could be genuine.

946

Spangled now defends FF?

952

A scummy push for massclaim.

1127

Now he is backtracking on some of his scum reads as pressure mounts so to relieve it..

There are also a ton of posts from Egix, Mizzy, 72 and MC throughout the game dealing with the Cyl slot that I agree with...

946 wasn’t a defense of FF; I find it best to treat people who are more or less certain to die as if they’re town. It serves a dual purpose; if they

are

town, then you give them the opportunity to get their last thoughts out, if they’re scum, and they believe they can win you over or influence you because you seem receptive to them, they might talk more, which can only be good for town.

You still haven’t explained what was scummy about pushing for massclaim; I explained my reasons doing it then; you really don’t seem to have bothered engaging with them.

I don’t see how 611 is inconsistent. I thought it was weird for you to TR Egix based on him pointing out how many scumreads 72 had because that’s easy to point out; all it takes is counting, which is something scum are just as good at, as it happens. I pushed 72 because I thought he had no

progression

in his scumreads, not just because he had so many. MC thought similar, IIRC.

Also why are C4 and cyl’s interactions buddy-indicative? People defend each other for all kinds of reasons. I know as scum I’ve pushed back on silly pushes so as to gain easy towncred; it’s not hard to point out inconsistencies and someone’s sure to, so being the first to do that is easy towncred for no particular effort.

Your theory about 589 is just silly, by the way. That would be such a stupidly brazen move by FF, who is experienced scum. If anything, I think it points heavily the other way — although of course, I’m terribly biased.

As to 1127 — I was reconsidering, I was re-thinking. That can be read as scummy, or it can be read as townie. I don’t think ‘so as to relieve pressure’ makes much sense, though; a change in the ‘severity’ of a read (so to speak) rarely dissuades others who are pushing you.

[Spangled]

I keep coming back to 218. Why was c4 among your townreads, even though you never really mentioned them in your catch-up?

[Spangled]

@safebet, whoops

[safebet222]

a parting shot, so to speak — ‘only one scumread’ is so strange; why did you have two other wagons lined up if your scumread wasn’t going to go through?

Look at my iso from the end of D1 and you'll see. I didn't hide my intentions.

Nightfall was coming and town was apathetic to really push anyone. I made a determination (rightly or wrongly) that 72 wasn't gonna get elimm'd D1 so I decided to take the initiative to consolidate into 2 wagons instead of 4.

[safebet222]

I keep coming back to 218. Why was c4 among your townreads, even though you never really mentioned them in your catch-up?

Two reasons really... I was looking at 72 as my initial scumread and was really most interested in pushing his spot. Second, I'm trying to build a town block in the beginning of the game. Imo, Cooperation as town paramount to flushing out scum, can't do either if you're scumreading people that you're interested in cooperating with. At the time, I felt C4 was worth trying to get to cooperate with me...

After his posts in 249 and 252, I figured I wasn't gonna be so successful.

[safebet222]

You still haven’t explained what was scummy about pushing for massclaim; I explained my reasons doing it then; you really don’t seem to have bothered engaging with them.

I didn't answer you because of this...

TOWN
Yours truly
Mizzy
JDye
Egix Null
FF Null to slight scumlean based on C4 hard defending Cyl and I now see Spangled as my main scum read right now.
Spangled
SCUM

72... you get your own category... Polarizing Scumtown??? In other words I don't know what to think about you. Your 1v1 with JDye screams TvT but your constant moving on scum reads is unsettling.

Your no massclaim analysis is spot on in my opinion

and what you say in your own defense about your playstyle makes sense along with your play at the end of D2. I'm gonna play nice with you for now... but my vote stays on Spangled.

Oh, it seems you disagree, sorry.

Why do you reckon JDye’s town?

Here are the posts where 72 lays out his reasoning and I lay out my reasoning...

My strong preference is for no claims, we wagon/kick FF, we have a mislynch in hand. There is really no need to massclaim. The fact that scum hit vanilla townie shows that scum has bad PR reads or the game is stacked against scum and they were forced into a suboptimal kill based on the game dynamics. Massclaim just plays into scum's hands imo.

So like i said, i STRONGLY suggest we kick FF or Bang. No massclaim.

a) If we are in a 1 PR setup, scum just claim vanilla, and the PR gets night killed.
b) If we have a jailer, jailer is MUCH stronger once 1 scum is dead - if we correctly wagon and kick !scumFF or !scumbang

No surprises that FF is open to a massclaim, despite stating not to know when massclaims are good.

Ok... @Mizzy... I think 72 is correct that massclaim is not good for town here. I don't think there is incentive for scum to do anything but claim VT in any setup. Except for...

a) If we are in a 1 PR setup, scum just claim vanilla, and the PR gets night killed.

In this situation, unless there was a NK gambit, the 1PR is JK... Scum could claim tracker or FN... So town can't even trust the massclaim result fully unless there is a doc setup. It might benefit town if we are in the cop and doc setup and cop has hit scum. And even then I'm not sure outing that before MELo/ ELo is good either.

Let me know why I'm wrong if I am.

[safebet222]

As for the rest of your post... I wouldn't expect anything less than you defending your actions. Thankfully, I don't have to convince you that you are scum, I have to convince the others. Most of them laid out reasons that your slot is scummy. I'm just trying to remind them of those reads and add to the narrative.

[Spangled]

As for the rest of your post... I wouldn't expect anything less than you defending your actions. Thankfully, I don't have to convince you that you are scum, I have to convince the others.

So... you aren’t going to engage with it?

[Spangled]

I keep coming back to 218. Why was c4 among your townreads, even though you never really mentioned them in your catch-up?

Two reasons really... I was looking at 72 as my initial scumread and was really most interested in pushing his spot. Second, I'm trying to build a town block in the beginning of the game. Imo, Cooperation as town paramount to flushing out scum, can't do either if you're scumreading people that you're interested in cooperating with. At the time, I felt C4 was worth trying to get to cooperate with me...

After his posts in 249 and 252, I figured I wasn't gonna be so successful.

So did you not try and read c4 before that?
That makes no sense; you say ‘you can’t cooperate with people you’re scumreading’ — was that your

reason

for behaving as if he was town? What?

You haven’t explained why you put c4 in your townreads initially; ‘because I wanted him to work with me’ doesn’t cut it; why did you want him to work with you if you hadn’t read him yet? I mean, you had, but where did the read come from? He doesn’t get any comments about how towniness, or lack thereof, in your catch-up.

[safebet222]

I answered the questions you had of me. The rest of your posts are you defending yourself. What is there to engage with? If you're trying to convince me that I shouldn't vote you, this is a pretty weird way to do it. If you're trying to convince others I am scum, I'm not thenonenyou need to be asking to engage with your posts.

[safebet222]

I keep coming back to 218. Why was c4 among your townreads, even though you never really mentioned them in your catch-up?

Two reasons really... I was looking at 72 as my initial scumread and was really most interested in pushing his spot. Second, I'm trying to build a town block in the beginning of the game. Imo, Cooperation as town paramount to flushing out scum, can't do either if you're scumreading people that you're interested in cooperating with. At the time, I felt C4 was worth trying to get to cooperate with me...

After his posts in 249 and 252, I figured I wasn't gonna be so successful.

So did you not try and read c4 before that?
That makes no sense; you say ‘you can’t cooperate with people you’re scumreading’ — was that your

reason

for behaving as if he was town? What?

You haven’t explained why you put c4 in your townreads initially; ‘because I wanted him to work with me’ doesn’t cut it; why did you want him to work with you if you hadn’t read him yet? I mean, you had, but where did the read come from? He doesn’t get any comments about how towniness, or lack thereof, in your catch-up.

It doesn't cut it for you... Fine. Is this all you got on me? Like I said, you need to be engaging others if I'm yoir target.

[Spangled]

I answered the questions you had of me. The rest of your posts are you defending yourself. What is there to engage with? If you're trying to convince me that I shouldn't vote you, this is a pretty weird way to do it. If you're trying to convince others I am scum, I'm not thenonenyou need to be asking to engage with your posts.

[Spangled]

whoops sorry

[Spangled]

Like I was going to say there, you’re not ‘my target’, I’m not trying to convince others that you’re scum, I’m trying to figure out whether you’re scum or not.

As to engaging — I think I’ve defended myself and explained my actions, at least the ones mentioned in that post, where they’re not really valid reasons. I mean, you might not think that, but can you say why my defense of myself isn’t valid? I mean, I appreciate the difficulty with engaging with someone’s defense of themselves, the other’s mind is completely opaque to yours, etc. usw., but still.

And you’ve mentioned others’ arguments for me being scum — can you point to the ones you agree with, please?