Newbie 2031 - The Wild Hunt (End!)

[Mundivore]

*very convincing to me though.

I should probably be following my intuition more on these games.

[Redados]

After shelly died I basically stopped keeping up with the game. I came back a long time later and actually started SRing Redados which is interesting considering I generally have trash SRs

I was always paranoid about redados in my solves

i didn't expect redados scumrange to post like that, this is actually rather identical to their towngame

Thanks Shelly that means a lot

[Redados]

Yeah, you earned that win. I had a hunch based off of how you started really misrepresenting what I was saying? The way that you bussed NK was very convincing to me.

It's hard to scumcase someone that I know is town. That was possibly the hardest part of being scum. It's hard to have reads. This is compounded by the fact that I have enough trouble with reads as town.

[fferyllt]

Yeah, you earned that win. I had a hunch based off of how you started really misrepresenting what I was saying? The way that you bussed NK was very convincing to me.

It's hard to scumcase someone that I know is town. That was possibly the hardest part of being scum. It's hard to have reads. This is compounded by the fact that I have enough trouble with reads as town.

I thought you played really well!

As a player, I am better at town than at scum by a long shot, and playing multiple games as scum is really tough for me. Lots of players enjoy their scum games, but being scum frequently can be tiring, even so!

Convincingly scumreading town players is hard. The bright side of struggling with reads as town is that having difficulty fabricating reads as scum won't look to different to town players!

[ClarkBar]

Aww. I know I had to bow out early due to a new (and overwhelming) job, but I would have loved some PM's letting me know what was what. Congrats scum team!

[ClarkBar]

*very convincing to me though.

I should probably be following my intuition more on these games.

I have an irritating habit of talking myself out of correct scumreads.

[Satisfaction]

I really couldn’t have asked much more from this game. It was a pleasure. Thank you all and nice to meet you.

[fferyllt]

Aww. I know I had to bow out early due to a new (and overwhelming) job, but I would have loved some PM's letting me know what was what. Congrats scum team!

I should have done that. I'll try to remember for next time. I should have known you'd still be around.

[fferyllt]

I really couldn’t have asked much more from this game. It was a pleasure. Thank you all and nice to meet you.

I really enjoyed your playstyle and enjoyed how you processed the game (at least the parts of the processing that hit the game thread). Your day 1, in particular, it felt to me like you didn't get the level of towncred you earned.

[fferyllt]

I know that this won't be a great ah ha to Mundivore and Egix96, who were the townies invited to the elimination-or-lose table on day 4, but it's something for everyone to consider in future games. Unless town PRs do great things in the night, the mafia team gets a fair bit of control who they bring to the final day of the game.

If you're at that table as town, then probably the most important thing you can do is understand why you're there.

The main reason you are there is because 1) mafia think you are likely to vote the other town player or 2) mafia think you will be voted by the other town player or 3) both.

So, think about where your reads have been leading you in terms of who you think is the mafia team. And try to come to that table with fresh eyes. Reread the game. Look carefully at all living players. Look at interactions with flipped mafia (if available). Look at interactions with flipped town. Look at votes. Look at how those votes came about -- what were the player's reads progressions (ahem...trajectory). Did they make sense? Were they internally consistent? etc.

You can do all of that and still wind up with the wrong answer in the end, but at least knowing why you're at that table can help do a reset and recalibrate!

I thought that Mundivore and Egix96 tried to do that during the last game day. Redados played a super clean game as mafia and it paid off for him.

[Egix96]

I simply don't see how it could be anyone other than Egix from this position. If this is Red, then I think you earned it. But I'm all in, and I'm out of lines.

VOTE: Egix96

I was hoping you wouldn't do that while I was asleep... I was starting to get there on Redados, too.

[Egix96]

the worst - well played and sorry that I didn't read the games that you spent time putting together. I was terrified of you. We will definitely play together again soon.

Mundivore - it is always a pleasure to play with you. Being universally scumread in limlo is never fun regardless of alignment and you did a good job keeping up a good attitude.

Bluebell - sorry there was no one else to really scumread - you were limbait! I hope that you can hop into more games and write more poems!

Satisfaction - you played a fantastic first game, I can't wait to see your play continue! You also scared me a lot

ArthurConyl - you have really, really bad luck in terms of being mislimmed in the early game. I hope that you are able to stick with it. I meant what I said in post 87.

Egix96 - I did read some of your games, you are a very good player. You have what Mundivore called "convergent play" where your town and scum games look very similar. That's super scary. I'm warming up to your playstyle!

shellyc - I wish you hadn't claimed. While you were claiming I was going for a run and planning my defense of you. I would have gotten so much towncred. Oh well.

Not Known 15 - I'm sorry that I wasn't a better scum partner! I definitely feel like we did our own things and butted heads a little bit. That ended up being useful in terms of distancing with what happened, but maybe it didn't need to go that way. Hopefully we can roll scum together again in the future. Thanks for your guidance in the Mafia PT!

Btw, thanks!

[the worst]

the worst - well played and sorry that I didn't read the games that you spent time putting together. I was terrified of you. We will definitely play together again soon.

Thank you so much It was a pleasure.

No worries re. not reading my games; the whole "scum keep asking me to waste my time assembling games!! rawr" persona was definitely an act to see if you started to sweat. asking for meta comes from both sides - scum busywork, and from town who don't know what part of the game to analyse next - so it's always helpful IME to assume that it's coming from scum until you see it develop into something meaningful. That may be something to keep an eye on, in the future.

The meta angle can be really useful. But if games are outliers (e.g. this game was fairly slow and analytical with quite a few replacements), it can be pretty hard to draw valuable meta conclusions until pretty late in the game.

This tidbit is probably more handy for town than for scum, but meh, hopefully it helps somewhat. sometimes rather than trying to do a cold meta dive, it can be pretty interesting to drill people for what they see in themselves - or what they see in the reflection of your read on them. if you're not sure what exactly to look for in a meta dive, this can help generate content within the game itself.

Wild freeform example dialogue is like, "duck. fam. you have too many posts and I don't have a read on you. how do you expect me to correct this nullread, you fluffposting scumbutt?!". obviously in your own words, and adapted to context - but hopefully you can see what I mean. even if you're unlikely to get a sincere meta analysis from me, it relieves you from doing the meta dive and puts me in a position where I have to raise the bar of the conversation in a dialogue which is pretty challenging for me to respond to. win/win!


as an aside - I'm glad to hear I was scary! I like to think that as long as I'm scaring newbies, I'm doing something right... Or maybe that's just my Hallowe'en spirit speaking... I digress - very much looking forward to playing with you again, too.

[the worst]

If you felt that the flavor/story was a distraction, please let me know, and I'll think about telling an image-story next time.

On the contrary, I really liked the story!

Thank you for modding - you were amazing as always. I doubt I'll ever forget that you were the mod of my first on-site game, and it's so cool to me that newbies 3 years later are able to have their debut in your games.

[the worst]

being less verbal and less cheesy for a sec

Well I did mostly just cuz she tunneled my slot which I knew was vt

eh

I think I can see scum!the worst playing like this

yeeet

[shellyc]

I know that this won't be a great ah ha to Mundivore and Egix96, who were the townies invited to the elimination-or-lose table on day 4, but it's something for everyone to consider in future games. Unless town PRs do great things in the night, the mafia team gets a fair bit of control who they bring to the final day of the game.

If you're at that table as town, then probably the most important thing you can do is understand why you're there.

The main reason you are there is because 1) mafia think you are likely to vote the other town player or 2) mafia think you will be voted by the other town player or 3) both.

So, think about where your reads have been leading you in terms of who you think is the mafia team. And try to come to that table with fresh eyes. Reread the game. Look carefully at all living players. Look at interactions with flipped mafia (if available). Look at interactions with flipped town. Look at votes. Look at how those votes came about -- what were the player's reads progressions (ahem...trajectory). Did they make sense? Were they internally consistent? etc.

You can do all of that and still wind up with the wrong answer in the end, but at least knowing why you're at that table can help do a reset and recalibrate!

I thought that Mundivore and Egix96 tried to do that during the last game day. Redados played a super clean game as mafia and it paid off for him.

lylo (or xylo or whatever you decide to call it) is this huge catharsis that you end up doing something that decides the game as town as it takes one wrong vote to lose the whole game, and for scum its basically waiting for THE victory moment. (I've only played out scum lylos though given my inability to roll town.)
imo, losing to scum that you expected all along feels worse than losing to scum that you didn't expect to be scum, so towns often don't re-evaluate in lylo and end up losing. i think with re-evaluation paranoid gets in which makes everything really wifomy towards the end so there's a balance in rethinking the game in lylo.

[shellyc]

as an aside - I'm glad to hear I was scary! I like to think that as long as I'm scaring newbies, I'm doing something right... Or maybe that's just my Hallowe'en spirit speaking... I digress - very much looking forward to playing with you again, too.

classic worsty scaring newbies off MS, how intriguing

[shellyc]

As a player, I am better at town than at scum by a long shot, and playing multiple games as scum is really tough for me. Lots of players enjoy their scum games, but being scum frequently can be tiring, even so!

is it just me or is town much more tiring than scum
as scum you already know the answers and its more gamestate manipulation than anything

[Not Known 15]

I know that this won't be a great ah ha to Mundivore and Egix96, who were the townies invited to the elimination-or-lose table on day 4, but it's something for everyone to consider in future games. Unless town PRs do great things in the night, the mafia team gets a fair bit of control who they bring to the final day of the game.

If you're at that table as town, then probably the most important thing you can do is understand why you're there.

The main reason you are there is because 1) mafia think you are likely to vote the other town player or 2) mafia think you will be voted by the other town player or 3) both.

So, think about where your reads have been leading you in terms of who you think is the mafia team. And try to come to that table with fresh eyes. Reread the game. Look carefully at all living players. Look at interactions with flipped mafia (if available). Look at interactions with flipped town. Look at votes. Look at how those votes came about -- what were the player's reads progressions (ahem...trajectory). Did they make sense? Were they internally consistent? etc.

You can do all of that and still wind up with the wrong answer in the end, but at least knowing why you're at that table can help do a reset and recalibrate!

I thought that Mundivore and Egix96 tried to do that during the last game day. Redados played a super clean game as mafia and it paid off for him.

The problem was that it wasn't even that way that much(for town). All kills were supremely easy to explain. Night 1 was a PR kill. Night 2 and Night 3 were kills on near-confirmed town due to spew. The question why Redados was never nightkilled had a simple answer: There were better kills. That's one of the worst situations you can get for EXLO... scum surviving without questionable position(scummy, why is this consensus townread still alive?).

[the worst]

I agree with what NK15 is saying about NKA (night kill analysis) - sometimes there is a great place for it. Other times, there really isn't. In this game, there was no way we could have deduced scum via NKA. the kills were tpr > spewed town > spewed town, just leaving the optimal confusing xylo.

I think the point fferyllt is making, is a bit different. There is a classic suggestion that you should always vote your townread in xylo. But I don't think that's what fferyllt is saying either. She's just saying, entering xylo is an experience. The game goes from "ok let's solve this sucker" to "oh no, scum think they can win this phase which I am alive in". And that's not necessarily a question of "why have they kept me alive?", so much as a question of "should I be voting for someone superficially scummy, or should I be hunting for someone who thinks they need me alive to win the game / someone who is convinced that i will not vote for them in this phase".

I take being invited into xylo as an opportunity to reset my reads and consider who is "winning" the gamestate, rather than explicitly an opportunity to turn on my townreads.

I hope I'm making sense I feel long-winded

[fferyllt]

I agree with what NK15 is saying about NKA (night kill analysis) - sometimes there is a great place for it. Other times, there really isn't. In this game, there was no way we could have deduced scum via NKA. the kills were tpr > spewed town > spewed town, just leaving the optimal confusing xylo.

I think the point fferyllt is making, is a bit different. There is a classic suggestion that you should always vote your townread in xylo. But I don't think that's what fferyllt is saying either. She's just saying, entering xylo is an experience. The game goes from "ok let's solve this sucker" to "oh no, scum think they can win this phase which I am alive in". And that's not necessarily a question of "why have they kept me alive?", so much as a question of "should I be voting for someone superficially scummy, or should I be hunting for someone who thinks they need me alive to win the game / someone who is convinced that i will not vote for them in this phase".

I take being invited into xylo as an opportunity to reset my reads and consider who is "winning" the gamestate, rather than explicitly an opportunity to turn on my townreads.

I hope I'm making sense I feel long-winded

I think you're making sense. I'm definitely not saying just reverse your reads if you make it to xylo. It's an opportunity to do a reset and regroup, and think about how the game developed to that point, from the perspective of how much leeway the mafia team really had in making night kills, or if those kills were somewhat forced by the gamestate. From there, you can estimate how much your presence at xylo has to do with your stances earlier in the game, remembering that's an estimate and not a solid fact. It's all data that you can think about as you reread portions of the game.

[the worst]

That's the way I was reading your suggestion, yeah. I do think this was a particularly hard f3 for town to win. But it serves as a great lesson, always.

[PenguinPower]