TENET - Game Over

[zMuffinMan]

i dont know how to read titus so when she says stuff i think is incredible dumb i just think "par for the course"

that's about the only other possibility though

[zMuffinMan]

i don't even know what he's trying to say there rofl

[zMuffinMan]

i think he's saying he expects better of me or something due to the fact i made some predictions about stuff in illicit substances?

*shrug*

it is what it is

[zMuffinMan]

shocking

[zMuffinMan]

well, if i had to guess, it'll be 24-48 hours of you pretending you're going to consider other options before throwing out a vote on me

[zMuffinMan]

could you vote me now? just for a minute, i wanna test something

[zMuffinMan]

what? you think i'm like scum who gets to kill people on my wagon or something, spiffeh?

there's no more turnstiles, bell

[zMuffinMan]

i have to leave now, spiffeh

grow a pair and stop pretending you're considering other options before i get back, ty

[zMuffinMan]

is deacon cabd? if so, he can't read me for shit anyway, so that's a pretty good indicator im town

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, that's why i wanted to keep pisskop on this side and get rid of him d1

but he got turnstiled because

something something

i dunno, because he was low content people wanted to shift him over? what little content he has sucks though

perhaps on a level above hench's case

turnstiling almost50 was theoretically fine even though it was pretty obviously not going to end this side. i guess if you thought there was a very high chance he's scum then it was prob better to flip him here today? *shrug*

if he's scum, there'd either have to be 2 scum here or he's scum with someone who is pretty confident about not getting voted out today

[zMuffinMan]

if anyone's dumb enough to think i'd play like this as scum in this timeline, let alone the last scum, they should just give up on mafia altogether

[zMuffinMan]

it's not a pocket read. i just think his reasoning for some reads is kind of shitty so i guess it's more bop than an outright "he's done scummy shit" scum read

[zMuffinMan]

i dunno if it's on the level of "cabd is town because he lurks as scum" like he did last game but i feel a lot better about others than him so he's like a wildcard if-nobody-else-is-scum-then-it's-prob-just-him read

[zMuffinMan]

i don't remember whatever you're referring to but bork also did some weird stuff in that game. i don't think he'd ever be that confident about a town read on me, for instance

[zMuffinMan]

your avatar makes it look like you're very angry about having walked in on people talking shit about you

made me chuckle

[zMuffinMan]

actually i do want to ask people who think i'm scum here what they think my mindset is

whether they think i'm solo scum or scum with someone else

do you think i'm like pretending i don't give a shit about being voted out today? do you think i thought this approach as scum was optimal for some reason?

just want to hear the rationalisation for it

like even at my laziest, i don't think my scum game is ever like this so... what?

[zMuffinMan]

i actually really don't understand why gypyx is so high on so many people's lists, even if he actually is town

like even if i squint and ignore things i don't like or ignore the fact i think others look way more town, i just don't see anything in his play that is a shining paragon of towniness so him being a top-tier town read for some is all sorts of ???

[zMuffinMan]

does he play somewhere else or something? because i went through his games at some point to check that and found like 1 scum game here i think

this was like over a week ago or whatever when it was being discussed d1

[zMuffinMan]

am i missing something because all i see is viewtopic.php?f=83&t=84773 where has has about the same ratio of posts to others as in this game

so

?

[zMuffinMan]

yeah nacho said that and then i checked and found 1 game so like i dunno where he was getting meta from

outside of POE, i don't believe he thinks what he thinks (which is why i keep trying to pin down stances from him) and he's spending an abnormal amount of time asking questions about stuff that really doesn't matter

but honestly, i'm prob doing a bit of after-the-fact rationalisation here because i'm mostly working off POE

[zMuffinMan]

i suppose if i really had to i could go through his ISO and break down stuff but it honestly just comes down to i haven't seen town motivation and i've seen plenty of stuff that i'd classify as just skating by, essentially active lurking, if that's a term youngens still use

[zMuffinMan]

he looks like a middle of the pack poster in that game too

[zMuffinMan]

that's more sensible reasoning than your actual case tbh

still wrong

also the wording of the rules was ambiguous enough that i'm not sure scum chose the actual split or just the numbers so i'm wary of writing anyone off for reasons like that

[zMuffinMan]

so imagine an alternate reality where i was town, henchy

who's scum here?

[zMuffinMan]

oh is cabd actually scum reading me?

see, i have a theory that cabd's plan with reading me in games is to call me scum every game so the one time he eventually gets it right he can be like "hah, told you guys!"

or he's just genuinely shit at reading me

either way, amusing

[zMuffinMan]

also who else did you think was scum that's already gone? both pooky and pisskop? or you think this side only had 2?

[zMuffinMan]

i actually dont mind being voted because you're pretty much dead weight if you don't start reassessing and that's coming from me lol

i doubt you're ever gonna take a leap of faith that im town but you should probably start thinking about who's actually scum sooner rather than later

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think brian is scum

gun to head, i'd say titus is town but i honestly don't have a fucking clue how to read her and usually just leave her in a poe pile

[zMuffinMan]

im gonna be real with you for a bit, henchy

this isn't what my scum game looks like. i'm manipulative and rather meticulous as scum - every action is generally planned and i'm pretty well aware of how things are going to be received. as in, if i say something as scum, i generally know which players are going to take it well, which players aren't, and where that ultimately ends up leaving me

it's like, super easy to diffuse scum reads on me if i actually care about doing that - i know the sorts of things people like to hear that'll at least make them not want me gone before others, if nothing else. any scum game where i've actually been present will be full of posts like... this one, where i directly try to get inside people's heads and manipulate how they're thinking about the game and push them in directions i want them pushed

there's like zero chance i do a lot of the things i've done in this game as scum because it's not a winning strategy. i've tried a meta manipulation tactic before where i deliberately underplayed my scum game to fuck with certain meta-oriented players and it backfired and i decided it's not worth it over just playing in a way that gets me to endgame. do you think anything i've done here indicates i'm trying to get to endgame?

this also kind of ties into why nacho thought i wasn't scum, even if he wasn't as sure about it as he probably should have been. i've talked to him about how i fucking hate scum players on this site having absolutely no depth and being easily caught. he knows i've wanted to see town get steamrolled by scum players who aren't going to be caught by yomi level 0 shit. it didn't actually click for me that this is what he what he was looking at when he said he thought i was town, but he's technically right - i would want to put on a better display as scum. (the caveat here is that he was apparently unsure of me if all of pooky/pisskop/almost50/shellyc are town, probably because he thought i wouldn't need to put on a grandiose display if i could achieve the same result with less effort or something? but you don't seem to think that obviously)

so when you say stuff like "his responses to even mild pushes were completely awful" it's amusing to me on multiple levels because it should be pretty obvious i didn't give a shit how you perceive me and it should be rather obvious that i knew you weren't gonna suddenly change your mind because i disparaged your shitty case. that's not what i do as scum lol. it doesn't put me in a better light, it doesn't make people want to vote out town players, there's no benefit in doing that over, say, just dismantling your case and trying to have a reasonable discussion with you about who's scum

and also i loled at you saying you thought i was trying to pocket you or something d1 - you're like the last person i would give a shit about trying to get on my side in this game. no offense, but i'd start with trying to get people i'm familiar with on my side if i were going the buddy-buddy approach as scum. i just never really had you as a scum read, simple as that

all that is to say, if you honestly think there's 2 scum still left here and can't see any others players being scum, well, you're in for a rude awakening i guess

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

anyway told myself i'd sit down and review some gypyx games today

just assume i've blinded myself to end the agony for good if you don't hear from me later

[zMuffinMan]

i don't want to get turnstiled because i haven't read a single post in the other thread outside of the flip and snippets that get posted here. and i'm sure as fuck not going to start now

but also if you think there's even a chance pooky/pisskop is 2 scum, then you should be wondering why i'd play a suboptimal game after getting rid of them - like, how is it a winning strategy to play like this after getting rid of 2 scum buddies? and if you think only one of them is scum and there's another here, then why on earth do i refuse to get turnstiled and ask to be killed here instead? lol. getting turnstiled is like a get out of jail free card

[zMuffinMan]

you immediately got really condescending and used a lot of AtE

exactly. this isn't a trait of my scum game lol, because i know how that stuff is perceived by people. it's like, the worst way to diffuse suspicion

a lot of people in this game kinda want to murder *someone*

i mean, it's kind of a meme i'm playing into intentionally now, but like... there's a reason nacho made jokes like 1360 (hint: "voteless town player" is referring to me)

i will say i think the meta reasons for town reading gypyx are incredibly weak and remind me of like people going "oh creature is so easy to read, he can't play scum at all" until he starts learning "oh, it's that easy to skate by as scum, i just have to be active?" and wins with everyone going "this isn't his scum game!!!"

but hey, that's why i decided to sit down and read his games

[zMuffinMan]

o ya, that reminds me. i wanted pisskop killed in *this* thread specifically because turnstiling is basically a get out of jail free card

dunno why you guys turnstiled him

[zMuffinMan]

out of interest btw, do you think i'm scum who legitimately doesn't give a flying fuck about the other thread or do you think i'm lying and am secretly reading everything they're writing because i'm a masochist and like reading 200 pages of garbage for fun then pretending i haven't read it?

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, i was bringing it up because _if_ henchy's theory is that i'm scum with pisskop but i wanted him eliminated here instead of turnstiled then they must think i was trying to powerbus (ain't my fault nacho went gungho on the turnstile just because i wasn't around for a couple hours after they asked me to give them a drumroll) over giving them a get out of jail free card (as seems to have happened since pisskop is still alive)

i p clearly vocalised my desire for pisskop to be dead here with the express reason that i think it's better to turnstile iffy-ish players that may be town (like almost50, shellyc, etc) and keep players who had a higher chance of being scum here

your perspective on that wasn't an issue since you seemed to think shellyc was way more likely scum than others. i was more berating the people that were doing it without having a stronger scum read outside of the turnstiles

[zMuffinMan]

people are usually pretty hesitant to vote incredibly low-content players for some reason. i doubt me advocating it based on the shitty content in this thread is going to suddenly change anyone's mind about their stance on pisskop if they aren't already trying to get rid of him

[zMuffinMan]

same

except the second sentence

and maybe the third

[zMuffinMan]

i dont think bell is scum

[zMuffinMan]

wait, is some moron in the shit timeline making the case that he crumbed even night doc and then decided not to claim even night doc? lol

[zMuffinMan]

at least dunnstral is making some sense in his suspicion (i.e. that it's right for the wrong reasons) but still don't think bell is scum

[zMuffinMan]

most of the claims so far have claimed something in this timeline right? shellyc's role was the only one claimed for the other timeline?

[zMuffinMan]

oh. scum prob have some sort of bypass to most of the roles in this game in a limited capacity. watcher / doc co-existing, but starting in separate timeline isn't impossible by any means even without that anyway. like, 20:6 where scum get double kills for the first 3 nights (in most universes where this setup plays out) isn't exactly town-sided to begin with. i fully expect town to have some way of swinging things back in their favour, and this dumb n2 mechanic isn't it

[zMuffinMan]

I protected imperium which is why I jumped on princess for assuming there was no protect on this side.

probably assuming no protective role is a mild town indicator if you sit down and think about it lol

i mean, especially from your POV, scum likely used a strongman on imperium so they would know it's a baseless assumption

[zMuffinMan]

So I started wondering if HP was baiting me into revealing myself tbh.

oh... nah

p sure nobody is dumb enough to think that would work

no better than like "i bet there's not a cop" and hoping someone goes "HOW WRONG YOU ARE!!!"

[zMuffinMan]

the n2 mechanic is fine, it's just not a make-or-break thing in terms of balancing out double-kills vs double-days (and it's not even a standard double day because of synchronous flips)

[zMuffinMan]

bit late but i just wanna say that whoever decided the nacho kill sucks

[zMuffinMan]

theoretically what happens to the purple room if one person gets voted in and then also gets voted out? would that mean the person on the other side can just freely swap over with no consequences?

starting to think that's actually optimal use of the purple room

don't ask why i started thinking this, spiffeh

[zMuffinMan]

someone said people who go to the purple room can swap timelines

i wanna know what happens if only one person goes to the purple room due to the other being voted out

[zMuffinMan]

i have peered into the depths of bell's soul and determined he's likely town

ps: this is not a crumb

pps: if i later claim something that makes this look like a crumb, it's pure coincidence

[zMuffinMan]

honestly gonna ignore the role stuff for now and im pretty sure that shit sorts itself anyway. sincerely doubt there's an ungated strongman in this setup

and like pretty certain he aint solo scum here

at

[zMuffinMan]

so let's say i dont think it's bell or brian or henchy

and let's say that i buy gypyx is town

who's that leave

[zMuffinMan]

o yea noddy exists too but i don't even remember anything hes done lately

hmm

[zMuffinMan]

o right dunnstral probably is town too

[zMuffinMan]

man im good at stating the obvious

[zMuffinMan]

were you really town in the other thread noddy? ive just been half trusting nacho on that read but i legit keep forgetting you're even here

[zMuffinMan]

someone quote some town noddy stuff before i go down paranoia road tia

[zMuffinMan]

sigh

spiffeh, do you really think bell has posted scummy looking stuff in recent pages?

[zMuffinMan]

maybe i should just do a full reset and see where that takes me

[zMuffinMan]

ya that except for the part about overlords

[zMuffinMan]

i wasnt suggesting do that, just wondering what would happen

seemed like an extra way to abuse the n2 confirmation mechanic if it could have been used

[zMuffinMan]

titus calling me town for not jumping on bell is weird because it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how i play scum (i am not certain id call bell town there as scum but i know ive defended people in a similar situation as scum) and also seems like just a really weak reason to reverse her read on me if that's legitimately the only town thing ive done all game

:/

[zMuffinMan]

hm

if titus is town, scum either have a role that tells them the same info about protective roles or they made an assumption about it for some reason? using what was almost certainly a gated role that acts like a strongman n1 in this timeline is being way too cautious

not sure this thought is ever going to be relevant, but just something that came to me when i saw titus's semi-claim

[zMuffinMan]

wait no, that can't actually be real info though

it has to be an inference actually so never mind

no way mod deems it fit to include an IC on top of that lol

im dumb

[zMuffinMan]

something about there being protective roles in both timelines

im still like 8 pages behind so if this has been expanded on recently, meh

[zMuffinMan]

and i gotta go see siblings in like 15 mins soooo not going to be read up any time soon

i really dont believe brian is scum here though

[zMuffinMan]

hm. why do you think titus is going all in on you brian?

trying to make sense of why she left herself no outs

[zMuffinMan]

actually i woke up like 40 mins ago but then i sat in bed slowly catching up on stuff i missed

also dunno if you missed what i was asking but i mean why is she leaving no room to manoeuvre onto someone else if she's the last scum (or even if she isn't)? like, let's say people believed you're scum; she doesn't look amazing off of it and she has to backtrack on someone after that as well

just doesn't look like a very well-planned move as scum so trying to make sense of the motivation behind it

[zMuffinMan]

i don't really understand the focus on you

not like calling me town helps her case at all if she's scum lol

[zMuffinMan]

funny thing is i actually forgot again that noddy was in this game until just then

i was sorting a tier list in my head and it was like
bell, brian, henchy
dunnstral
spiffeh
titus
gypyx



i honestly just keep forgetting he exists

[zMuffinMan]

actually i really wanna move dunnstral up into my prob-not-going-to-vote-there-ever list because i don't really think he's playing like scum and i don't really think unwnd was scum either but he's being so soft-spoken and neutral-sounding and it's giving me hives since i don't remember him being that soft-spoken in games :/ but he's prob just town and i'm being conscious of that for dumb reasons

[zMuffinMan]

im prob never going to find the willpower to read through the other thread so if nachotammy was wrong about noddy, i'm just going to pin the blame on them and make fun of them in post-game for sucking

[zMuffinMan]

what have you even done in this game

[zMuffinMan]

you literally just show up every few days to talk to people in the other thread and farm your vote out to them

[zMuffinMan]

ok i'm legit surprised you have 500 posts here because i don't remember any of them

my general impression of you this game has been "why the fuck did he want to be turnstiled here if he's just going to talk to the other thread?"

that's all i actually remember about what you've done here

i'm just giving nacho the benefit of the doubt that you did some really town shit in the other thread because i haven't seen it here

[zMuffinMan]

oh i do remember bulge writing something that vaguely felt town at some point actually

signed it 'buige' that's all i remember

i just legitimately cannot remember anything you've written making any sort of impression on me

[zMuffinMan]

Isn't it fairly normal for people to want to hedge their bets as either alignment?

no? not something i'd do anyway, at least not explicitly

i might put focus on a player as scum but i don't think i'd ever feel it necessary to call everyone else town

unless i was doing it for the express purpose of making people think "would he do that as scum?" but i don't think titus's play is that many levels deep

[zMuffinMan]

the angle about brian's role is all kinds of wrong though and not helpful for anyone reading

even if brian were scum, it's just not helpful

[zMuffinMan]

i'm just trying to understand how she envisioned a change of tracks with regards to scum reads was going to help her

"it was her only option" is a bit meh for the explanation

don't believe that. she would have had to have thought it would benefit her in some way if she's scum but i can't think of a sensible explanation for it that doesn't involve "she wanted people to think like this" because that doesn't really work on anyone outside of maybe me lol and i doubt it was targeted at me

[zMuffinMan]

i am actually super-curious about the whole "i know there's protective roles on both sides" explanation though

so i kind of want at least a partial claim in regards to that

[zMuffinMan]

you looked town in that game though

[zMuffinMan]

i don't read you off content lol

[zMuffinMan]

because your posts are boring here

[zMuffinMan]

let's flip this around noddy

if you'd actually done town stuff here

do you think i, as scum, would ever bother not just saying you're town and ignoring you for the rest of the game? do you think i'd ever bother saying "i'm just going to sheep nacho and trust he's done town stuff in the other thread" which functionally achieves the same goal but would make it seem like i'm what? incomptent at reading you or something?

i just don't think you've seemed town here lol

[zMuffinMan]

muffin do you still think gx could be scum?

-E

uh

he'd still be my guess but really i dunno

too many people are saying this isn't his scum game and i've been too lazy to actually do the meta check i wanted to do (i have his games open in my browser just... haven't gone through them yet)

i wanted to focus less on activity (even though he hasn't been super active here anyway) and more on how he approaches the game when he does a meta dive... really should just get around to doing that now

[zMuffinMan]

when i do a meta dive rather. still groggy and it's midday. sad times

[zMuffinMan]

trying to make predictions about where scum are going to fall on any particular wagon without even knowing how many scum are left, whether they're active, whether they even feel they need to be on the wagon for it to go through, etc, seems pointless

it's not like shellyc had a sizeable counter-wagon going anyway so scum would have had a bit of freedom to just, you know, avoid that wagon like the plague if they wanted

[zMuffinMan]

wondering what the design intent behind the lover thing is

since turnstiles require consent and like... why would anyone ever voluntarily become loverised?

agree that i don't really understand how that leads to thinking protective roles on both sides. did other half of that pair ever explain that? something they talked about in their neighbourhood?



as a side note, i'm not going to be super-surprised if titus ends up being scum, i just have issues rationalising a lot of her play this phase if she is

[zMuffinMan]

assuming that was the hammer and this side isn't solved, s'pose i'll use the downtime getting around to reading gypyx meta

[zMuffinMan]

dont really think a doc needs to be leashed here

if scum don't have a work-around and choose not to shoot the doc on the basis that people *might* vote him if he's still alive, well, ok, good luck with that

[zMuffinMan]

i dont really think brian is scum even if you are town

i think he just really thought you're scum