Mini Normal 2187: PIFiMDM [game over!]

[NoPowerOverMe]

That's not necessarily true.

[ben dover123]

You seem particularly interested in votes rn PZ. Is there a particular reason for that, or am I seeing something that isn’t entirely there?

Votes are more powerful than words.

No wonder I got bad vibes from you. Our views are polar opposites.

Votes alone are nothing, words make up a vote. I believe in the technique of charisma and people could probably get everyone to sway on their side even if they didn't vote all game if they are charismatic enough.

[Papa Zito]

!!!!!!!!!! BEGIN PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT !!!!!!!!!!


PLAYSTYLE DISCUSSIONS DO NOT FIND SCUM

THIS GAME IS ENDLESSLY DEBATING PLAYSTYLE NONSENSE

LET'S FOCUS ON MESSAGE AND INTENT INSTEAD

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE


!!!!!!!!!! END PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT !!!!!!!!!!

[Dannflor]

Alright, here's the deal. I believe Elements is town and the wagon on them sucks, for a variety of reasons.

A couple people have already claimed that I have above average reads as town, but you don't have to sheep me for that. In fact, I'd prefer you didn't. Instead, just consider my opinions and talk about them knowing that they're coming from a person who is confirmed town.

First of all, ben dover123 and NoPowerOverMe are both likely town. I won't be too loquacious on bendover since most players seem to agree that he's town. However, I will state that aside from just general feelings of obv-towniness from the motivation and quality of his posts, his "white knighting" of Lunar Martian is unlikely to come from a scum mindset. Essentially, bendover is trying to defend a slot as limbaity before they've even fully participated in the game, doesn't do so subtly, and continues to attract a lot of attention to himself staunchly defending his opinion. It's an unneeded reach for town cred as scum that doesn't really gain a whole lot. The more natural scum move would be to soft defend Lunar Martian later, if indeed the slot turns out to be limbaity. Overall, Ben doesn't strike me as the player to go for such a bold move just to desperately defend a potentially limbaity slot. Combined with his other posts, it's more likely that the defense comes from a town mindset that genuinely and desperately believes he needs to make his opinion on the Lunar Martian slot clear.

Mostly wanted to expound on that in case anyone does disagree because I think this is a safeish universal town read.

NPOM is a trickier read, and it has taken me a while to come around on this slot. But, I think my initial issues stemmed from playstyle differences more than anything else. A lot of this read is *vibe*, much in the same way the majority of my ben dover read is. It would be helpful to me if people who scum read this slot were very vocal as to the exact reasons why. There's been a few posts where I find his thought process hard to fake and

yknow what. I don't have to make up reasons for town reading people. I don't have to prove I'm town. I'm IC. deal with it.

Lunar Martian is also leaning town, not for being limbaity but for other reasons I'll expand on if people need them.

ELEMENTS is probably town and most of the reasons people have for scum reading them is bad? The wagon initially started on them for two reasons. The first is because they entered the game with the gimmick of "vote everyone at least once." Which... anyone who has played on this site for any amount of time should know a gimmick like that is probably not scum indicative. A few people threw around accusations that Elements as an experienced town player shouldn't behave this way (looking at you Kazyan), and failed to consider what reasons an experienced town player might have for such a gimmick. That is, to get reactions and start discussion. Most of Elements' posting, and indeed their playstyle, seems to be in engaging players that react to them and their actions.

UNVOTE: NPOM[/unvote

I don't like this
put your vote back

This post. Elements why are you telling other people to move their vote this early in the game?

The other reason is like this weird post by Alchemist where he considers Elements' feeling strongly about building a wagon scummy? Alchemist never really follows up on this and has since just floated on the vote, but I digress.

Both weird/bad reasons. The wagon has continued because of the perceived badness of Elements' focus on 1v1 interactions with people who suspect them. I don't think this is scummy, but it can be limbaity because people automatically suspect defensiveness in mafia. However, rather than pure defensiveness, I read their posts as trying to earnestly question the people who suspect them.

In fact, Elements reminds me a lot of Auro in Team Mafia 2020, who had a similar play style of arguing about people's suspicions of him, and remained the top D1 town wagon for quite some time because of it.

Elements [4]: Alchemist21, Kazyan, Hayker, NoPowerOverMe
Lunar Martian [1]: PenguinPower
NoPowerOverMe [1]: ben dover123
ben dover123 [1]: Gamma Emerald
PenguinPower [1]: Elements
Kazyan [1]: Papa Zito

Not voting [4]: HeWhoSwims, 2ndchosen1, Dannflor, Lunar Martian

I also just look at the wagon and I'm... not impressed. Aside from NPOM, I'm not town reading any of the slots on the wagon. Alchemist had a weird entrance where he said I had good reads as town even though I don't think I've ever played as town with him before? I could very well be wrong but aside from that he just hasn't really done anything this game besides sit on a weak Elements vote. Hayker seems more intent on justifying their actions then in actually following through with their actions (I can explain this more if needed). Kazyan, I honestly have difficulty reading.

Uh who else. Gamma Emerald could very well be scum this game. He has a lot of good surface level solvy posts but he's an experienced enough player to be able to fake a lot of those. In my mind he hasn't taken really any hard stances or done anything that I can confidently say is town for him yet.

I got light light town pings from HeWhoSwims but he obviously needs to post more...

Dannflor is town and I heard he has pretty good reads sometimes

=========

[PapaZito, 2ndchosen1, PenguinPower and Kazyan] are all kinda in this weird limbo of null because they either need more content or I can't parse their posts quite yet.

[Gamma/Alchemist/Hayker] lean more towards scum to varying levels of confidence.

I'd support wagons on any of the above.

[bendover, NPOM, Elements, Lunar Martian, HeWhoSwims] lean more towards town to varying levels of confidence.

Granted, these are all just basic impression formed off of 10 pages. And I'm sure they'll change drastically in the next 10. But wanted to get that out their as a log of a confirmed townie's thoughts.

My strongest/most important opinion is just the Elements wagon is weak and there's a reason I've been asking for more justification there. I would strongly prefer a wagon basically anywhere but in my three top town reads.

[Dannflor]

!!!!!!!!!! BEGIN PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT !!!!!!!!!!


PLAYSTYLE DISCUSSIONS DO NOT FIND SCUM

THIS GAME IS ENDLESSLY DEBATING PLAYSTYLE NONSENSE

LET'S FOCUS ON MESSAGE AND INTENT INSTEAD

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE


!!!!!!!!!! END PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT !!!!!!!!!!

hey this be a good post actually

papa z can be town

[NoPowerOverMe]

VOTE: penguin power

He'd a mod right? So he gets some sort of free pass?

[Lunar Martian]

NoPower, why is Ben town to you?

He seems engaged, uninformed and open-minded.

I'll give you engaged, but it actually seems that the engagement stems largely from being informed based on having a prior game with me, and not being open-minded and instead forming opinions and judgements based on that game in order to defend me while I was away. Those seem like generic buzz-wordy reasons to think someone is Town.

[NoPowerOverMe]

When I said uninformed I meant about this game, of course he's going to be informed about other games.

[Dannflor]

not being open-minded and instead forming opinions and judgements based on that game in order to defend me while I was away.

why is this suspicious to you?

[Lunar Martian]

Yeah but like... who would you say seems informed? Or, what is his uninformedness in contrast to? Why does he stand out?

[Lunar Martian]

not being open-minded and instead forming opinions and judgements based on that game in order to defend me while I was away.

why is this suspicious to you?

I don't suspect Ben. I'm just questioning NoPower's logic.

[Dannflor]

gotcha, carry on

[NoPowerOverMe]

You seemed informed, it's why you're not scumhunting.

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: NoPower

I think phase one of the hunt is complete!

[NoPowerOverMe]

Guess we don't need sherlock holmes anymore.

[Gamma Emerald]

When I said uninformed I meant about this game, of course he's going to be informed about other games.

Okay but why does he feel that way?

[Datisi]

Vote count 1.08

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-01-04 23:00:00).

execution

Elements [3]:

Alchemist21, Kazyan, Hayker,

NoPowerOverMe [3]:

ben dover123, PenguinPower, Lunar Martian

ben dover123 [1]:

Gamma Emerald

Kazyan [1]:

Papa Zito

Alchemist21 [1]:

2ndchosen1

Hayker [1]:

Dannflor

PenguinPower [1]:

NoPowerOverMe

Not voting [2]:

HeWhoSwims, Elements

mod notes

~ prodding alchemist21
~ yeet

flavour

[HeWhoSwims]

^
What's so hard to read about me?

When you post a question like this. I know this one isn't directed at me, but if I were to say why I find hard to read about you. This question throws me off, it comes off as more defensive of your actions, as opposed to trying to evaluate your read. Most of your posts come off very well, but then a post like this throws me off

As for your question, its also just a bit of a playstyle thing I suppose. Not worth a lot of discussion as per Zito's PSA but yeah I think from the short time I've seen you around here since I am playing again we just go very differently about stuff and I know that will mess with my read of you, even if your most recent posts seem rather townie.
Also, as Hayker said, this kind of question is an example of that. It seems defensive and my first gut instinct would to be "ew I hate that. Not a good look" while I feel it might just be a playstyle difference and I generally lean town on you for the time being.

Can you vote someone

yes
VOTE: NPOM
let's roll
with my limited knowledge this seems like a better wager than Elements for the time being

[PenguinPower]

if indeed the slot turns out to be limbaity

Maybe I misread in my catch up, but wasn't ben's defense that LM

was

limbaity based on meta? If that's the case, using prior knowledge, wouldn't ben have a reason to do what he did as scum?

[PenguinPower]

Lunar Martian is also leaning town, not for being limbaity but for other reasons I'll expand on if people need them.

yes pls scumbudy.

[PenguinPower]

VOTE: penguin power

He'd a mod right? So he gets some sort of free pass?

No, they just give me a green name to inform everyone of my alignment. I'm basically Dann's IC mason brother.

[PenguinPower]

yes
VOTE: NPOM
let's roll
with my limited knowledge this seems like a better wager than Elements for the time being

Why's that?

[Kazyan]

I still disagree with Dannflor's assessment of Elements, but:

1) I would rather not do this again,
2) Discussing such old posts isn't advancing the play state or anything,
3) Putting pressure elsewhere will get us more information,
4) When we have a lot of newer arguments to deal with, there are bigger fish to fry, and
5) Even if we get down to brass tacks, the Elements wagon isn't happening.

With all that in mind: UNVOTE: Elements

Penguin is now talking, but not actually saying much. I don't like it.

I'm willing to call Alchemist and Hayker as light scumreads. I know I used Hayker's post as a template with which to lay out my thoughts, but that doesn't remotely mean Hayker is town.

I don't know which of the three would be productive to put some info-squeezing pressure on--Hayker, Alchemist, or Penguin. They all have one vote each. The NPOM wagon is tempting, but I'd like more information from the sources that aren't giving as much of it; I might switch to NPOM if we get to 6 votes there. So...I'll just pick one. VOTE: Penguin

[PenguinPower]

[PenguinPower]

I'd like to hear more from 2ndchosen1, Hayker, and HeWhoSwims.

Hayker, Alchemist, or Penguin.

To reference later.