Mini Normal 2187: PIFiMDM [game over!]

[Dannflor]

Everyone suddenly launching very weak attacks on NSG has me queasy

Yes, HeWhoSwims was not a great slot, but there’s no one that’s pushing anything about nsg’s own posting in good faith

[2ndchosen1]

Duh.
You know what I meant, I hope. But I have my questions. I don't know Hayker at all so maybe his meta is to do this shit, but it seems like a too convoluted plan to eliminate him right away.

I think this has been swept under the rug

HWS/NSG Scumread - calls for role fishing on HWS and nsg now, NSG even said I'm "pocketing" by simply providing analysis in 1022 which seems a subtle way of buddying town.

What does the fact that I was thinking along the same lines as NSG and NSG's explanation about the 2nd half of this do to this read, 2ndchosen?

It has me thinking I might be doing the same thing there I originally did to Alchemist. I find what I think is a tell and tunnel on it a bit to much. It still isn't enough for me to feel off on that mark at the moment as "~reasons~ to townread NPOM/unwnd" feel like a LAMIST PR. The interactions between Elements and NSG seem both hostile but with nothing happening between them, almost feels like a show. The HWS dialogue above that elements brings up does bring up that the slot itself is iffy. nsg also seems upset that I have grievances about who was in the slot earlier when most the reads done on NPOM/unwnd come from the NPOM side. While the call on "I'm not bad at this game so my actions aren't scummy" hits my thoughts on Hanlon's razor. Sometimes it is just malice, it cost very little to make that call and then backup and go "lol jk that would be a terrible scum move" and nonetheless IC is potentially calling for it.
Overall, I'm not willing to drop the read entirely yet, but it does have me concerned of falling on Occam's razor and has me looking at the townread people such as Kazyan and NPOM/unwnd again.

I really believe in the timing and necessity of posts. I'm very much a player who is trying to figure out the gamestate instead of individual tells, even if I use them for a foundation. This is just the way I prefer to play the game. I'm always considering what is happening in front of me, but it only means so much. This is why I posed the questions I did and approached the game in the matter I have when I replaced, because such reads are only of value in the split second it's created. Let me explain: I believe that we're not immutable people. I believe it is not inherently scummy to change your mind. It all requires intent, and some kind of specificity. I'm not really satisfied in just saying 'this guy is scum', I want to pinpoint the exact instance of what you were thinking, why you did it, and how you did it. That basically just breaks down what makes this game fun for me and you can read that part however you want.

2ndchosen, do you consider yourself not very good at having raw interactions with people? A lot of your posts seem very isolated and not really tuned into what's happening in front of you.

If by raw you mean engaging at an emotional level. Certainly in a mafia game without voice chat. I try to come at stuff by thinking of motive and what would be optimal or near optimal play FMPOV. I also can only be on so many times a day of which I spend most reading. I don't see how this questioning on my playstyle helps.

!!!!!!!!!! BEGIN PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT !!!!!!!!!!


PLAYSTYLE DISCUSSIONS DO NOT FIND SCUM

THIS GAME IS ENDLESSLY DEBATING PLAYSTYLE NONSENSE

LET'S FOCUS ON MESSAGE AND INTENT INSTEAD

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE


!!!!!!!!!! END PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT !!!!!!!!!!

As much as your post claim to be looking at game state, I don't see much in that info coming forth from you. I see only an almost emotional based reading. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to how the game state reads to you and why. What would cause Dann be spared? What are your takes on GE and PZ's deaths? Is the general Role call worthwhile and why? Do the interactions between NSG and Elements read as TvT, TvS, SvT or SvS and why? I see Dann's evaluation on Agar as potentially correct, what do you make of it?

[northsidegal]

nsg also seems upset that I have grievances about who was in the slot earlier when most the reads done on NPOM/unwnd come from the NPOM side.

where? quote a single instance of me being upset at someone having grievances with HWS's play.

While the call on "I'm not bad at this game so my actions aren't scummy" hits my thoughts on Hanlon's razor. Sometimes it is just malice, it cost very little to make that call and then backup and go "lol jk that would be a terrible scum move" and nonetheless IC is potentially calling for it.

my point has never been that it's

impossible

for someone to do that. it's that it's far less likely of a scenario than me actually changing my mind. if you think that what you say is

more probable

than what i say then i'd be interested to hear why, but so far all i've heard is an assertion that the scum scenario is what happened without any justification as to why it's more probable than the town scenario.

[Dannflor]

2ndchosen, could I get a quick summary of the town reads you feel strongest about and why you feel that way when you get the chance?

[2ndchosen1]

considering the fact that i was not in the game at the time of 536, implying that that comment was me saying that you're pocketing me seems incredibly silly.

this is an either incredibly mistaken or incredibly dishonest reading of what i said in 1022. i said that a post like 536 was "the perfect way to pocket me because..." as a way of saying that i really like that style of post.

My logic was you came in and basically said "this style of post is what I like" which as I said back then felt like a subtle way of buddying up to town. Now maybe it wasn't to overt. I also have the major concern of rolecall from you and HWS, which you've addressed but not really answered me satisfactorily. I don't have a quote from you but for the slot to ask for rolecall from both players yesterday and today felt legitimately weird and your hostile attitude towards the line of questioning makes me want to push it harder. So, I'll ask you a question. What benefit would a mass rolecall have had towards the town as of when you called for it and why?

@Dann, I'll try and get to it tonight or first thing in the morn

[northsidegal]

considering the fact that i was not in the game at the time of 536, implying that that comment was me saying that you're pocketing me seems incredibly silly.

this is an either incredibly mistaken or incredibly dishonest reading of what i said in 1022. i said that a post like 536 was "the perfect way to pocket me because..." as a way of saying that i really like that style of post.

My logic was you came in and basically said "this style of post is what I like" which as I said back then felt like a subtle way of buddying up to town. Now maybe it wasn't to overt. I also have the major concern of rolecall from you and HWS, which you've addressed but not really answered me satisfactorily. I don't have a quote from you but for the slot to ask for rolecall from both players yesterday and today felt legitimately weird and your hostile attitude towards the line of questioning makes me want to push it harder.

okay, first of all i'm going to assume that you're admitting that the point about me being upset at someone having grievances with HWS's play was wrong because nothing here relates to that.

as regards my hostile attitude towards the line of questioning, i like to think that i'm generally a pretty relaxed / non-aggressive player and that i've kept the argument pretty focused purely on the reasoning, but obviously everyone reacts to things differently so it's possible i could come across as hostile towards someone else.

So, I'll ask you a question. What benefit would a mass rolecall have had towards the town as of when you called for it and why?

given knowledge of myself being town and dann being an IC, all it would take would be two more confirmed town or very strong townreads in order for the game to be auto-win, from my perspective.

[Lunar Martian]

Just wanted to share a weak gut-level meta-read. Unwnd feels a bit different here than as Town the one time I saw that. I was Mafia, so it could be me that's changed, but that's the vibe I get.

[Dannflor]

If you could figure out more specifically what feels different that would be helpful, if you can

[2ndchosen1]

I'm gonna do a quick one before bed. some are conditional on how the questions I asked are answered

Kazyan is the strongest read for Town I've got. We've got similar reads in 1123. I generally like his reasoning and thought layout. Motives seem solid and explained. I would like to know what he sees in 1122 that it's living in his head.
LM is who I'm almost reading as potential vig as it seems that his sus reads seem to end up on the kill list next day. (PZ/GE - D2, D1 - Penguin) General belligerence aside, no malicious motives I can pull. Though wishing I had more reasoning and explaination on his posts.
NPOM/unwnd is a bit contingent on how they answer my questions but history seems okay in general. Will admit NPOM was easier to read as I almost get a word salad feel here
NSG has said enough to convince me I'm maybe not looking at whole picture so I am planning on reexamining especially the nsg/elements interactions.
Elements is clearly paying attention per his "oops" but hasn't really given a stance or why on anything, many are wagoning and it's easy to see why with his confidence on attacking NPOM/unwnd.

[Lunar Martian]

I'm gonna do a quick one before bed. some are conditional on how the questions I asked are answered

Kazyan is the strongest read for Town I've got. We've got similar reads in 1123. I generally like his reasoning and thought layout. Motives seem solid and explained. I would like to know what he sees in 1122 that it's living in his head.
LM is who I'm almost reading as potential vig as it seems that his sus reads seem to end up on the kill list next day. (PZ/GE - D2, D1 - Penguin) General belligerence aside, no malicious motives I can pull. Though wishing I had more reasoning and explaination on his posts.
NPOM/unwnd is a bit contingent on how they answer my questions but history seems okay in general. Will admit NPOM was easier to read as I almost get a word salad feel here
NSG has said enough to convince me I'm maybe not looking at whole picture so I am planning on reexamining especially the nsg/elements interactions.
Elements is clearly paying attention per his "oops" but hasn't really given a stance or why on anything, many are wagoning and it's easy to see why with his confidence on attacking NPOM/unwnd.

This doesn't feel like solving. Also why are you speculating about PRs?

[Lunar Martian]

If you could figure out more specifically what feels different that would be helpful, if you can

There's less solvy energy. In that game unwnd actively took a back seat as an SE in a Newbie game, but despite sitting back, they felt like they were adding insight and perception when they posted.

[Kazyan]

Kazyan is the strongest read for Town I've got. We've got similar reads in 1123. I generally like his reasoning and thought layout. Motives seem solid and explained. I would like to know what he sees in 1122 that it's living in his head.

Okay, so here's the post:

There was a grand total of 1 interaction between NPOM/unwd and Hayker day 1 and that was NPOM begrudgingly voting near the end of the day.
Scumbuddies!

If you go back from that about 3-4 pages or so and skim all the way up to Elements's post, the arc of the conversation topic is largely "We were thinking Papa Zito is scum, but we're starting to think that second slot might be Gamma, actually?". So, in the middle of all of that, right when Dannflor is changing his mind, Elements pops in and asserts that NPOM/unwnd is scum based on some vaguely-plausible reason. And it's not, like, drawing a parallel to the reasons that PZ and Gamma are being discussed or anything; it's an unrelated thing. It's spontaneous and also doesn't go anywhere that day.

I think it's more likely that scum does that than a townie. If you're town, and you genuinely disagree with the current topic, do you really just make an accusation without comment? Or do you tell the confirmed townie that drives the entire game that he's barking up the wrong tree? If the town is debating between two different people and your top scumread (besides Hayker) isn't in that pairing at all, to the point where you're throwing out a full-blown "NPOM/unwnd is scum" accusation...the reasonable move is to ask your town friends to stop trying to kill each other for a second. Right?

But if you're scum, and the town is driving that train off a cliff, you can perform how totally town you are by making an accusation and backing it up with an analysis that sounds plausible.

[Elements]

There was a grand total of 1 interaction between NPOM/unwd and Hayker day 1 and that was NPOM begrudgingly voting near the end of the day.
Scumbuddies!

If you go back from that about 3-4 pages or so and skim all the way up to Elements's post, the arc of the conversation topic is largely "We were thinking Papa Zito is scum, but we're starting to think that second slot might be Gamma, actually?". So, in the middle of all of that, right when Dannflor is changing his mind, Elements pops in and asserts that NPOM/unwnd is scum based on some vaguely-plausible reason. And it's not, like, drawing a parallel to the reasons that PZ and Gamma are being discussed or anything; it's an unrelated thing. It's spontaneous and also doesn't go anywhere that day.

My vote was on NPOM for those 3/4 pages so I don't see how it was spontaneous?

I think it's more likely that scum does that than a townie. If you're town, and you genuinely disagree with the current topic, do you really just make an accusation without comment? Or do you tell the confirmed townie that drives the entire game that he's barking up the wrong tree? If the town is debating between two different people and your top scumread (besides Hayker) isn't in that pairing at all, to the point where you're throwing out a full-blown "NPOM/unwnd is scum" accusation...the reasonable move is to ask your town friends to stop trying to kill each other for a second. Right? But if you're scum, and the town is driving that train off a cliff, you can perform how totally town you are by making an accusation and backing it up with an analysis that sounds plausible.

So you're saying that scum are more likely to pop into the thread, comment on a read that has nothing to do with the current topic of conversation, then leave.
That's not how scum play. Scum try to imitate the solving mindset of town and emulate that in their posting. I am significantly more town read as scum than as town because of this. Scum don't play my town game. It's too erratic.

[Elements]

Currently everyone alive except me thought/is still thinking that unwnd is town.
If we look at the reads of the first mafia kill:

Would love to yeet within {

Hayker

/NPOM/LM} today.

No desire to yeet within {

PZ

/

GE

/

Alch

/Elements} today.

{

PP

/Kazyan/Swims/Chosen} don't feel like flips where they'd give enough information as currently constructed, but there is likely some scumbag in there.

They are so far bang on the money.
Papa Zito was also questioning the NPOM/unwnd slot

I'm still curious about your NPOM townread.

and was subsequently night killed.
Coincidence? I think not.

[unwnd]

Any dissonance you feel between now and recent games is just paranoia

Or me being busy. If you guys really think I shoot PZ because I'm worried that he scumread my slot I don't think I have a proper combination of words to describe how insane that'd be. PZ died because he's town, and furthermore, I personally hate looking into night kills and assuming anything. My vote on 2ndchosen is not a full reflection of night death, rather lessening of PoE. If you think I'm scum based on a PoE then by all means approach me at that angle, because I cannot work with 'youre scum because a dead townie said so' lol

[Lunar Martian]

Any dissonance you feel between now and recent games is just paranoia

Or me being busy. If you guys really think I shoot PZ because I'm worried that he scumread my slot I don't think I have a proper combination of words to describe how insane that'd be. PZ died because he's town, and furthermore, I personally hate looking into night kills and assuming anything. My vote on 2ndchosen is not a full reflection of night death, rather lessening of PoE. If you think I'm scum based on a PoE then by all means approach me at that angle, because I cannot work with 'youre scum because a dead townie said so' lol

You're saying there are no perceptible differences between your Town and Mafia play?

[Elements]

Or me being busy. If you guys really think I shoot PZ because I'm worried that he scumread my slot

That's just an added bonus

[Dannflor]

If you guys really think I shoot PZ because I'm worried that he scumread my slot I don't think I have a proper combination of words to describe how insane that'd be.

I mean... It's not insane with a vig in the game?

[unwnd]

I'm a bit backloaded right now and it's my fault. I shouldn't give a fuck about people sussing me but I do, mostly because I don't want to die without correcting a previous mistake

I'm also a bit confbiased to the pace right now, feels like scum has very weak influence

[unwnd]

2ndchosen I'll get to you eventually because you asked me a few things

[Kazyan]

This old post really rustles my jimmies:

Idk. Maybe I believe too much in the good side of people or whatever but it would seem outlandish to me to fakeclaim a full doctor of all roles, place the hammer, defend the claim up and down and especially in a game where we already have 3PRs on the table right now -- would scum dare to do that?

Would it be worth it to ask a possible other protective to "counterclaim"

, seeing if we have a doc its out on the table already, or is that incredibly dumb?

Emphasis mine. Dannflor has survived two nights by now, and the only good explanation is that the Mafia are still hunting down PRs in order to use their Jailkeeper--which, at the time of writing this post, was a secret. Dannflor only went public with it in #829. If HWS had gotten his way, then they could have targeted that hypothetical real doctor (or other PR) with the Jailkeeper, then point their Mafia kills somewhere consistent with whatever fake-doctor Hayker's plans were. Something like that. The possibilities are wide, here. I know HWS isn't here to defend himself anymore, but this is so darn scummy considering what we now know.

That said, HWS wasn't all that engaged, so this could plausibly not be within his range as scum.

---

Unrelatedly, excluding myself, here are the possible scum parings:

• unwnd/Elements
  
  
• unwnd/Lunar
  
• unwnd/2ndchosen1
  
• unwnd/northsidegal
  
• Elements/Lunar
  
• Elements/2ndchosen1
  
• Elements/northsidegal
  
• Lunar/2ndchosen1
  
• Lunar/northsidegal
  
• 2ndchosen1/northsidegal

I think we can rule out unwnd/Elements, because Elements started attacking unwnd's slot on Day 2 and has continued that crusade into Day 3. That would just be absurd play for a scum team.

[Datisi]

Prodding northsidegal.

[Elements]

I think we can rule out unwnd/Elements, because Elements started attacking unwnd's slot on Day 2 and has continued that crusade into Day 3. That would just be absurd play for a scum team.

Why can't you do that with Hayker's attack on me and rule me out as scum completely?

[Kazyan]

I think we can rule out unwnd/Elements, because Elements started attacking unwnd's slot on Day 2 and has continued that crusade into Day 3. That would just be absurd play for a scum team.

Why can't you do that with Hayker's attack on me and rule me out as scum completely?

This is a good point. Hayker spent much of Day 1 leaning on Elements and reiterating the point, which

could

just be distancing, but then he re-voted Elements through Day 2 and held onto that position. I feel like it would be within his range to try to save Elements with heavy distancing, but it's weird that he then committed seppuku-by-hammer instead of trying to yell at Elements some more. That's a strange combination of things to do if you're trying to save a scum partner.

[Kazyan]

Going back through 2ndchosen1's ISO, I'm gonna UNVOTE: 2ndchosen1. These three posts are why. You've obviously just gonna have to take my word for it when I color myself green, but:

I'm awake mod, I swear

Whether

Ben

was hiding AND not interested or just not interested is still a bit iffy to me. I have to admit that LM has a point on the aggressiveness,

Agar

comes in and seems to immediately know exactly who is best to Wagon pointing to some posts that don't entirely give scum indictative to me on D1. While I'll acknowledge some of the reads seem to fit for me, like

hayker

. Others seem off to me, like

GE

and

Kazyan

.

Could you expand on those reads? I acknowledge they are your D1 reads and subject to change but I'm wondering what got you to such a list.

I'm looking forward to the promised

hayker

expansion too.

This is quite a complex position and doesn't seem to point towards distancing. Note that Agar's reads were, basically, GE as town and me as a scumlean.

I feel the argument was hardly wayward, but I just...don't like that

penguin

and elements both jumped on that wagon so quickly together.

why should I think that this doctor call is even legit

hayker

?
I'd like to hear

Penguin

's and Element's reasoning or if it's just sheeping

Agar

?

there is 1 day as of this morning remaining. I've intent to hammer tonight at midnight if elements and

penguin

can provide said adequate explanation or if

hayker

doesn't provide one

...and

if

2ndchosen1 was distancing, he had to be really really committing to it and coordinating with Hayker like crazy, here. But if he

were

coordinating...

I'll wait for PZ's thoughts, I'd like to hear them. If possible, I'll also wait on Kazyan.

A town doctor and a town machocop in the same game? Are you kidding me? I sincerely doubt such a setup would get cleared these days on this site. A town doc/cop combo can be powerful enough as is. I hammered for the obvious lie it was. How was I to expect it was a bad townie lie.

This is where I'm going to wish I had more experience on the site.

How are power roles generally distributed?

is the Macho cop/doctor combo to strong for most minis? I realize it's a closed setup but I'm unsure how the site balances. These questions are for Dann since he's only one that can give me a guaranteed town view.

Then he would know this, by talking to Hayker. Emphasis mine. He wouldn't have to ask this question to the town; he'd just bring it up in the mafia thread.

I'm not 100% confident in clearing either 2ndchosen1 or Elements, here, but this does reduce my most likely suspect pool to Lunar, northsidegal, and unwnd.