Mini Normal 2187: PIFiMDM [game over!]

[Dannflor]

Kazyan, why is unwnd scum? I understand it's PoE from your point of view but I don't have that luxury.

[Dannflor]

Lunar, I'm interested in knowing who you think scum is now

[Kazyan]

You're asking me for to explain my PoE-based position without using PoE. Can't help you there, chief.

[Dannflor]

I was just curious if you'd make something up

[Dannflor]

Also, I think the vig should claim now

[Lunar Martian]

I believe unwnd is Mafia. I'm not sure about partners, I'll have to re-read which I do not have time to do at the moment.

[Kazyan]

Also, I think the vig should claim now

It's me. Hi. I breadcrumbed it in 1372.

Sorry about the bad shots.

[unwnd]

I counter-claim that lol

Very odd to wake up and see myself in this position

I shot Gamma on N2 but I didn't wanna make it overtly obvious so I tried to sweep it mostly under the wrong. I then tried to shoot 2ndchosen last night but either he was protected by JK or I was just outright roleblocked

[unwnd]

I never breadcrumb or anything like that, scum typically looks for those

I'm either sitting on confbias that 2ndchosen was JK'd by his mate or I was rolebocked by a scum JK

[Kazyan]

VOTE: unwnd, then.

[unwnd]

Sure let us initiate combat

I was pocketed mildly by that graph thing you did Kaz, that was good show on your part

VOTE: Kazyan

[Kazyan]

Guess this is gonna come down to who 2ndchosen1 believes, then.

[unwnd]

No because I think 2ndchosen is scum and if Lunar just votes like an idiot he can just hammer me lol

[Dannflor]

Do not vote anyone else.

Kazyan, I might be blind but I’m not seeing your crumb

[Dannflor]

Even if you are sure which one is correct just give me some time

[Kazyan]

The breadcrumb is the first letter of every sentence, including those in quotes.

At any rate, I'm done here. I've said my position. Everything is in the rest of your hands.

[Dannflor]

I see

2nd chosen and lunar I want your thoughts on this ASAP, preferably without any votes yet

[2ndchosen1]

you can't be serious about a False role suggestion in a mini normal LM.
claiming VT not that my word on that matters.

Profiles on people.
L_M profile(stuff I find notable, interactions with those alive, and with yeeted members)

D1

173 - D1 attack on GE, GE had a bad read on his intro and responded with what seems a sharp attack for D1 "But you can twist facts to fit whatever narrative you want if you try hard enough. Have fun with that." seems a bit much for a D1 attack.
247 - "pecks" NPOM for a response, NPOM replies with Ben as TR
251 - D1 read, Has Hayker, NPOM, and Kazyan as TR, has a "maybe" for Hayker here, Hedging bets and gaining distance? Null on Me
264 - "Gut feeling" Hayker is town. I too have rumblings in my stomach
399 - D1 TR on only Kazyan
401 - very touching post on Kazyan
458 - D1 read, Has Hakyer and Kazyan as TR, has a "probably" for Kazyan here, again? Continues Null on me, NPOM now SR
625 - Vote on Agar
627 - Explanation that Agar reads seem "backwards" and that he was "bullying" his way to town.

Most notable part of Day as Agar ends up killed NPOM/unwnd and LM both on yeet list

all "No desire to yeets" are gone, see 576, attempt to discredit?
642 - The winds are now blowing towards Hayker and Alchemist, best ensure I look like I had suspicion of both; yeah?
702 - prefers Alchemist to the Hayker wagon. best get the most you can out of a mafia member who is imploding.

D1 2nd's Conclusion
Oddly protective and offensive towards Hayker, pushing final wagon to Alchemist over him. aggression towards Agar, a large info source that immediately gets Killed. friendly towards Kazyan but with a "probably". Hedging bets on new player and hayker? In context of today SR on LM. "Pecks" at NPOM and Me.
SR for LM this day

Kazyan image affected by LM action

Agar hits NPOM and LM

D2

731
745 - odd attack on GE "Wouldn't Town be aware of the general feeling among the Town?" seems an odd statement to make when town doesn't know who is Town.
755 - Jumps on Hayker wagon with Kazyan early
785 - attack on NPOM for comments on IC sheeping, similar to the 745 statement to GE
809 - Attack on PZ for "buddying", PZ has stepped up in an attempt to put in solves in 773 and ends up dead this night.

819 may illuminate on motives

1025 gives another viewpoint
1092 - Just a weird post in general. but is an interesting
1137 - Attack for "distancing" NSG and Elements

D2 2nd's Conclusion
NPOM/unwnd and LM rides the Hayker boat all the way to a smooth mafia kill while attacking others and manufacturing small demerits on them throughout the day.
Hayker Hammers on my intent to hammer, and Kazyan is the E-1. Hayker's self hammer makes this an odd read. the Two other mafia had to have been on the wagon already, the only reason to self hammer is to stop discussion from continuing especially considering the HWS replacement occured here near the selfhammer. it is clearly opportunistic and could have lead to a miselim by vigi as the HWS slot was looked at unfavorably

D3
1443 - seems almost upset/implying I'm scum since I didn't hold my position.
1444 - Most influential post of the day to my eyes, is he happy to coast on any town that's left as all there is left is policy elim no matter which goes. interestingly Kazyan is part of the group here, and it makes the Kazyan lean harder town for me.


Final conclusion
Frankly I agree with Kazyan's reasoning on LM, but have added my own. Play has been whack not just on D3 but throughout the game.
Right now, I would lean towards Kazyan on the vig more than unwnd if only because I've had more....solid footing to grasp onto for his thoughts.

I also wanna hear Dann's take before I do anything vote related

[2ndchosen1]

Basically what I am saying is that Lunar can sometimes make these stupid posts so stuff that is stupid but not fully scummy shouldn't be treated as scummy.
If Lunar does make a scummy posts though, then there is an excuse to vote him.

I’m not looking for “excuses” to vote anyone. I feel like LM’s entrance was wack, 5 pages isn’t bad by any measure imo and he made a dumb joke. He doesn’t know how to act rn, which might be newbish or general awkwardness but the feeling when I saw it was scum with a bad entrance.

Is this just a gut read? I complained about the page count too and I could see someone deciding to be lazy and put down a dumb vote without reading anything. Is there something explainable that makes it more scummy than dummy?

It’s a vibe thing too. It just seemed a bit of conspicuous timing for him to come in like that. He posted 2 things others had posted as well, which seems like trying to fit in but not knowing how so he just emulated other people.
I feel like I might have something because the last time I had I read I felt like I do on LM on, it panned out. So I think I’m right again here.

Or the simpler explanation is that there was too much posting, a bunch of people didn't have time to read, and so we said similar things. But you can twist facts to fit whatever narrative you want if you try hard enough. Have fun with that.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

After some reflection, I believe the following people to be townsfolk: Gamma, Hayker maybe, Ben, Alchemist maybe, NoPower (although he needs to drop the "anyone who attacks the townblock is Mafia" shtick). That leaves seven people within which I'll be focusing my energy for now.
UNVOTE: Gamma

Pushing this early seems weird, since there wasn't really anything to push about. Wagoning on an early disruption is vaguely scummy, as I've explained in a previous post of mine. There's no reason to OMGUS if you're town.

I'm happy to give more information to the town, but I'm not sure what to say besides repeating myself.

It's not weird in the least. You're not giving any indication of your thought process here. Pointing to someone else's post and saying "yeah that" doesn't tell me what

you're

thinking. I have to sort your slot. I have to figure out if you got a green or red role PM. The only way for me to do that is to get inside your head. Currently you're doing your level best to prevent me from doing so. The pushback and hand-waving only makes me more suspicious.

ok, but which do you prefer/find easier

This entire line of questioning is noise.

VOTE: Alchemist21

I'm extremely curious about this vote.

This all looks like someone who is trying very hard to look like Town.

I'm rather embarrassed to still be alive

Are you Mafia? How do you explain not getting nightkilled?

Well I'm going to head off and either check in the morning or lunch
until then UNVOTE:

Wow I see we were really committed to that NSG vote, weren't we?

I initially didn't see how Mafia would ever want to make that play, but elements pushing back half-heartedly suggests maybe it was a chainsaw? I just don't see why.

My list looks like this right now even if it's 7 people

Dann
Me
Lunar
NSG
Kaz
Elements
2nd

I'm absolutely confident one of 2nd/Elements flips scum, and now it's been a case of being choosy and determining which reality feels the most true to me. I just need a bit more before I determine if I'm flipping my vote or staying on here. Would you be willing to trust my judgment (despite being wrong on Gamma) if that were the case?

Also we all basically agree on this. Assuming we are right that two of the bottom 3 are Mafia, I don't really care which two. Flip Elements and then have another look.

i also think that we never

really

hammered out a truly satisfying reason for agar being killed, and with more insight now we might be able to look back and figure out a better reason. at the very least it helps to know for certain that hayker was scum.

I think NSG makes a very good point that we should look into. Especially the bit about scum!unwnd

don't try to twist what i say for yourself.

Feels like distancing between Elements and northsidegal.

To elaborate, there's no pressure or FoS, just a "Hey I don't like you go away!". It's cheap and easy to tell someone to buzz off but with no actual pressure or analysis.

Should I not be town reading you

I mean I'm Town, so in that sense you should be. But I don't think that's necessarily a good reason to think I'm Town. I'm more surprised that you don't know I'm Town because I keep saying things and then you keep agreeing. We are constantly on the same page, yet you seem to have a lot of doubt about me. Maybe it's my posting style or something.

I'm by no means 100% confident that Papa Zito/HeWhoSwims are scum. But they are my absolute top picks and since I'm likely to not be participating in this game anymore soon, I would like people to take a long hard look at both of them and particularly my case on them. And if we still have a vig tonight, even better.

But yes, Hayker is #1 priority.

I'll do this for you. I'm already on Papa for coasting and for discrediting me, but not really doing much else or anything to solve. I'll keep an eye on HeWhoSwims.

Nothing Papa is doing is making me confident in him being Town. That post feels like it's trying to either buddy me or draw associations between us.

Don't like Gamma playing dumb. Wouldn't Town be aware of the general feeling among the Town?

There's a difference between sheeping the IC and knowing that they have the best chance of having town intentions.

Don't you have Town intentions? What about your own thinking?

I think I figured something out and won't be voting for Papa today. I'd go for alchemist, and AGar is actually making sense about Hayker too. Want to see more from Hayker before I decide. For now I'll vote alchemist.
VOTE: alchemist

VOTE: Hayker

AGar's "screw Hayker" masterpost is convincing. I basically have no idea what Hayker's broader reads are.

Willing to switch to Alchemist at a moment's notice, though.

Dislike this.

Lunar Martian is also leaning town, not for being limbaity but for other reasons I'll expand on if people need them.

yes pls scumbudy.

You've repeatedly tried to buddy Dannflor with posts like this. You claimed to be masons with him but then you also joke about being scum here.

You are scum because you are coasting. This whole game you've done basically nothing. What are your thoughts on who is Mafia and Town? Why haven't you seemed to do anything to try and solve the game?
Also, most people have done some things that suggest that they're Town. You're pretty much unique in not doing so.

I want to give a list of my thoughts.
These folks are of the Town: Gamma, Hayker, Ben, Kazyan probably, Papa Zito maybe.
Elements has a fair shot of being Town.
Unsure of Alchemist, HeWhoSwims, and 2ndchosen1.
I think PenguinPower and NoPower are probably my two top picks for Mafia.

That seems understandable but there's also the sheeping issues and I feel like it's a bit excessive even then?
I'm curious where Alchemist said anything about lack of optics concern though. Alchemist, if that is correct, why do you find that scummy of Kazyan?

1) I mean, yeah. I sheeped. That happened. I'm not going to defend it, because I definitely sheeped.

2) My post confirmed your claim that I was concerned about optics. Alchemist does not buy my post's explanation that you are correct. Therefore, Alchemist does not buy that you are correct. You claim is that I was concerned about optics, so Alchemist does not buy that I was concerned about optics. This is subject to change based on whatever Alchemist tries to backpedal on.

In the future--assuming I don't get eliminated--is there something I can do to make my lines of reasoning more clear? Between the two rounds of Elements debacle and this confusion, it's apparent that I'm not great at clarity. Dannflor's earlier null read on me seems to corroborate this.

The last paragraph of this post mostly. It has little to do with the game but seems genuine including feeling genuinely frustrated in struggling to get a message across. Not only is there an indication that Kayzan wants to work with Town, but the acknowledgement of a communication issue also explains why people might misconstrue Kayzan's posts as coming from Mafia.

well my thoughts were already more positive towards Kazyan than unwnd. the post does indeed spell Vigilante, I'd call it confbias but am impressed.

[2ndchosen1]

sorry bout the quote spaghetti my thoughts on them(and a link to context) are in post above it

[2ndchosen1]

One final thing I'd like to ask both Vigis though.
who was your target last night, and why? only one kill occured on NSG and she was well TRed by IC

[Kazyan]

I didn't shoot last night because I followed NSG's advice. If I shot Lunar and was wrong again, we'd lose.

[Lunar Martian]

Also, I think the vig should claim now

It's me. Hi. I breadcrumbed it in 1372.

Sorry about the bad shots.

I don't see the breadcrumb?

[Lunar Martian]

I counter-claim that lol

Very odd to wake up and see myself in this position

I shot Gamma on N2 but I didn't wanna make it overtly obvious so I tried to sweep it mostly under the wrong. I then tried to shoot 2ndchosen last night but either he was protected by JK or I was just outright roleblocked

Why not immediately vote someone who from your perspective is confirmed Mafia?

[Dannflor]

Just to be sure, what was the N1 shot?