Mini Normal 2187: PIFiMDM [game over!]

[unwnd]

Any paranoia you have towards my slot I'd prefer to be resolved through conversation instead of reading stuff and being like 'oh is Dann gonna vote me cause he thinks AGar died for reads'

[Dannflor]

well if I voted you that wouldn't be why

[Dannflor]

unwnd, what confused you about the night results? like, what was your reaction to elements flipping town? I'm somewhat surprised you tried to shoot 2ndchosen

[Dannflor]

So I think I was confused when I scumread NoPower.

Lunar, if you remember, I need an explanation on what happened here

[Dannflor]

I guess I shouldn't discount the possibility of unwnd/2nd

[unwnd]

unwnd, what confused you about the night results? like, what was your reaction to elements flipping town? I'm somewhat surprised you tried to shoot 2ndchosen

I wasn't really planning to claim vigil unless I had to. The whole 'confused about night results' was a means to distance myself from the shot but also had a bit of truth to it as well lol

[unwnd]

As far as trying to shoot 2ndchosen? It was a bit of impatience on my part. I was either ready to be wrong again or hopefully be right. If there were anything I felt towards Elements it would mostly be regret, as I didn't really do anything besides stubbornly park my vote onto 2nd. Even now, I'm acting a bit selfish. That's just how I am as PR because I shoulder responsibility, even more so because of night actions that I can take. I guess I wanted redemption for the Gamma shot in that sense

[Kazyan]

Any paranoia you have towards my slot I'd prefer to be resolved through conversation instead of reading stuff and being like 'oh is Dann gonna vote me cause he thinks AGar died for reads'

Dann, I know it's my word vs. unwnd, but if there's anything that should convince you, it's this post. Town has nothing to hide in their ISO.

[unwnd]

I don't know if you've been paying attention but I am very keen on the interpretation between scummy behavior and misunderstanding. If town all played a perfect game then mafia would never win and we'd be able to sort out who's scum and who's town just by fundamental tells. It's not like that however, therefore you end up killing some of your fellow town. I think for me personally, I want to give someone the chance to prove their innocence. I tried this multiple times with 2ndchosen but at some point I have to just make a decision. This is not necessarily related to me, but it does envelop my behavior towards other players in the game, where it's not that being wrong makes me feel bad, it's being wrong and knowing if I just understood someone a little better I could've been right.

[2ndchosen1]

Basically what I am saying is that Lunar can sometimes make these stupid posts so stuff that is stupid but not fully scummy shouldn't be treated as scummy.
If Lunar does make a scummy posts though, then there is an excuse to vote him.

I’m not looking for “excuses” to vote anyone. I feel like LM’s entrance was wack, 5 pages isn’t bad by any measure imo and he made a dumb joke. He doesn’t know how to act rn, which might be newbish or general awkwardness but the feeling when I saw it was scum with a bad entrance.

Is this just a gut read? I complained about the page count too and I could see someone deciding to be lazy and put down a dumb vote without reading anything. Is there something explainable that makes it more scummy than dummy?

It’s a vibe thing too. It just seemed a bit of conspicuous timing for him to come in like that. He posted 2 things others had posted as well, which seems like trying to fit in but not knowing how so he just emulated other people.
I feel like I might have something because the last time I had I read I felt like I do on LM on, it panned out. So I think I’m right again here.

Or the simpler explanation is that there was too much posting, a bunch of people didn't have time to read, and so we said similar things. But you can twist facts to fit whatever narrative you want if you try hard enough. Have fun with that.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

After some reflection, I believe the following people to be townsfolk: Gamma, Hayker maybe, Ben, Alchemist maybe, NoPower (although he needs to drop the "anyone who attacks the townblock is Mafia" shtick). That leaves seven people within which I'll be focusing my energy for now.
UNVOTE: Gamma

Pushing this early seems weird, since there wasn't really anything to push about. Wagoning on an early disruption is vaguely scummy, as I've explained in a previous post of mine. There's no reason to OMGUS if you're town.

I'm happy to give more information to the town, but I'm not sure what to say besides repeating myself.

It's not weird in the least. You're not giving any indication of your thought process here. Pointing to someone else's post and saying "yeah that" doesn't tell me what

you're

thinking. I have to sort your slot. I have to figure out if you got a green or red role PM. The only way for me to do that is to get inside your head. Currently you're doing your level best to prevent me from doing so. The pushback and hand-waving only makes me more suspicious.

ok, but which do you prefer/find easier

This entire line of questioning is noise.

VOTE: Alchemist21

I'm extremely curious about this vote.

This all looks like someone who is trying very hard to look like Town.

I'm rather embarrassed to still be alive

Are you Mafia? How do you explain not getting nightkilled?

Well I'm going to head off and either check in the morning or lunch
until then UNVOTE:

Wow I see we were really committed to that NSG vote, weren't we?

I initially didn't see how Mafia would ever want to make that play, but elements pushing back half-heartedly suggests maybe it was a chainsaw? I just don't see why.

My list looks like this right now even if it's 7 people

Dann
Me
Lunar
NSG
Kaz
Elements
2nd

I'm absolutely confident one of 2nd/Elements flips scum, and now it's been a case of being choosy and determining which reality feels the most true to me. I just need a bit more before I determine if I'm flipping my vote or staying on here. Would you be willing to trust my judgment (despite being wrong on Gamma) if that were the case?

Also we all basically agree on this. Assuming we are right that two of the bottom 3 are Mafia, I don't really care which two. Flip Elements and then have another look.

i also think that we never

really

hammered out a truly satisfying reason for agar being killed, and with more insight now we might be able to look back and figure out a better reason. at the very least it helps to know for certain that hayker was scum.

I think NSG makes a very good point that we should look into. Especially the bit about scum!unwnd

don't try to twist what i say for yourself.

Feels like distancing between Elements and northsidegal.

To elaborate, there's no pressure or FoS, just a "Hey I don't like you go away!". It's cheap and easy to tell someone to buzz off but with no actual pressure or analysis.

Should I not be town reading you

I mean I'm Town, so in that sense you should be. But I don't think that's necessarily a good reason to think I'm Town. I'm more surprised that you don't know I'm Town because I keep saying things and then you keep agreeing. We are constantly on the same page, yet you seem to have a lot of doubt about me. Maybe it's my posting style or something.

I'm by no means 100% confident that Papa Zito/HeWhoSwims are scum. But they are my absolute top picks and since I'm likely to not be participating in this game anymore soon, I would like people to take a long hard look at both of them and particularly my case on them. And if we still have a vig tonight, even better.

But yes, Hayker is #1 priority.

I'll do this for you. I'm already on Papa for coasting and for discrediting me, but not really doing much else or anything to solve. I'll keep an eye on HeWhoSwims.

Nothing Papa is doing is making me confident in him being Town. That post feels like it's trying to either buddy me or draw associations between us.

Don't like Gamma playing dumb. Wouldn't Town be aware of the general feeling among the Town?

There's a difference between sheeping the IC and knowing that they have the best chance of having town intentions.

Don't you have Town intentions? What about your own thinking?

I think I figured something out and won't be voting for Papa today. I'd go for alchemist, and AGar is actually making sense about Hayker too. Want to see more from Hayker before I decide. For now I'll vote alchemist.
VOTE: alchemist

VOTE: Hayker

AGar's "screw Hayker" masterpost is convincing. I basically have no idea what Hayker's broader reads are.

Willing to switch to Alchemist at a moment's notice, though.

Dislike this.

Lunar Martian is also leaning town, not for being limbaity but for other reasons I'll expand on if people need them.

yes pls scumbudy.

You've repeatedly tried to buddy Dannflor with posts like this. You claimed to be masons with him but then you also joke about being scum here.

You are scum because you are coasting. This whole game you've done basically nothing. What are your thoughts on who is Mafia and Town? Why haven't you seemed to do anything to try and solve the game?
Also, most people have done some things that suggest that they're Town. You're pretty much unique in not doing so.

I want to give a list of my thoughts.
These folks are of the Town: Gamma, Hayker, Ben, Kazyan probably, Papa Zito maybe.
Elements has a fair shot of being Town.
Unsure of Alchemist, HeWhoSwims, and 2ndchosen1.
I think PenguinPower and NoPower are probably my two top picks for Mafia.

That seems understandable but there's also the sheeping issues and I feel like it's a bit excessive even then?
I'm curious where Alchemist said anything about lack of optics concern though. Alchemist, if that is correct, why do you find that scummy of Kazyan?

1) I mean, yeah. I sheeped. That happened. I'm not going to defend it, because I definitely sheeped.

2) My post confirmed your claim that I was concerned about optics. Alchemist does not buy my post's explanation that you are correct. Therefore, Alchemist does not buy that you are correct. You claim is that I was concerned about optics, so Alchemist does not buy that I was concerned about optics. This is subject to change based on whatever Alchemist tries to backpedal on.

In the future--assuming I don't get eliminated--is there something I can do to make my lines of reasoning more clear? Between the two rounds of Elements debacle and this confusion, it's apparent that I'm not great at clarity. Dannflor's earlier null read on me seems to corroborate this.

The last paragraph of this post mostly. It has little to do with the game but seems genuine including feeling genuinely frustrated in struggling to get a message across. Not only is there an indication that Kayzan wants to work with Town, but the acknowledgement of a communication issue also explains why people might misconstrue Kayzan's posts as coming from Mafia.

Why wait to crumb until day four? I kinda think this is a SvS gambit.

I still have seen more from Kazyan then I ever got from unwnd. you can say you tried to "understand" me, but in reality you've simply dismissed everything I try and say and resisted answering anything that might have helped us actually be able to gauge each other.

I've made my case on L_M and his behavior.

Between how Kazyan and unwnd played
My position stands firm.

[2ndchosen1]

again sorry for spaghetti quotes. I've no clue why it went again

[Lunar Martian]

Also I don't like elements voting limbaity Lunar.

Well this post kind of sums up my thoughts on NoPower very nicely. NoPower makes a lot of short posts that don't say much. Most of them just serve to lightly discredit other people (in this case discrediting me somewhat and elements somewhat more). I also think this post is pretty ironic given what NoPower proceeded to do the next few days in terms of going after me. For someone who keeps touting the importance of finding Town, I'm not sure who NoPower thinks is Town. Not even sure if he ever even answered who is in the "townblock".

I want to give a list of my thoughts.
These folks are of the Town: Gamma, Hayker, Ben, Kazyan probably, Papa Zito maybe.
Elements has a fair shot of being Town.
Unsure of Alchemist, HeWhoSwims, and 2ndchosen1.
I think PenguinPower and NoPower are probably my two top picks for Mafia.

this makes it feel like a lunar/unwnd team is somewhat unlikely

although this suspicion is dropped later somewhat randomly

Why?

[Lunar Martian]

So I think I was confused when I scumread NoPower.

Lunar, if you remember, I need an explanation on what happened here

Multiple games with similar playerlists at the same time.

[Kazyan]

I don't know if you've been paying attention but I am very keen on the interpretation between scummy behavior and misunderstanding. If town all played a perfect game then mafia would never win and we'd be able to sort out who's scum and who's town just by fundamental tells. It's not like that however, therefore you end up killing some of your fellow town. I think for me personally, I want to give someone the chance to prove their innocence. I tried this multiple times with 2ndchosen but at some point I have to just make a decision. This is not necessarily related to me, but it does envelop my behavior towards other players in the game, where it's not that being wrong makes me feel bad, it's being wrong and knowing if I just understood someone a little better I could've been right.

For what it's worth, I do believe that your stance on intepretation/misunderstanding is genuine, and that you actually do that in both your towngame and scumgame.

But, to Dann, notice that this policy--prioritizing the cleanup of misunderstandings--does not actually preclude looking over ISOs. You can do both, and looking over ISOs to figure out where a misunderstanding started would actually help.

[Kazyan]

again sorry for spaghetti quotes. I've no clue why it went again

I'm almost sure that it has to do with that Q+ button.

[unwnd]

I don't know if you've been paying attention but I am very keen on the interpretation between scummy behavior and misunderstanding. If town all played a perfect game then mafia would never win and we'd be able to sort out who's scum and who's town just by fundamental tells. It's not like that however, therefore you end up killing some of your fellow town. I think for me personally, I want to give someone the chance to prove their innocence. I tried this multiple times with 2ndchosen but at some point I have to just make a decision. This is not necessarily related to me, but it does envelop my behavior towards other players in the game, where it's not that being wrong makes me feel bad, it's being wrong and knowing if I just understood someone a little better I could've been right.

For what it's worth, I do believe that your stance on intepretation/misunderstanding is genuine, and that you actually do that in both your towngame and scumgame.

But, to Dann, notice that this policy--prioritizing the cleanup of misunderstandings--does not actually preclude looking over ISOs. You can do both, and looking over ISOs to figure out where a misunderstanding started would actually help.

I don't think I could've made the conclusions or dug out the instances that I've questioned you upon without looking at an ISO, same goes for other things

[Dannflor]

Lunar, 2nd, have you both pretty much made up your minds completely?

[Kazyan]

Okay, so I did some extremely self-referential thinking. I think it's advantageous (or at least neutral) for the town in every possible scenario for the remaining votes to be submitted in the following order:

2ndchosen1 (third vote)
Lunar (fourth vote)
Dannflor (hammer)

Is everyone okay with voting in this order?

[unwnd]

The hammer is at 4 and I already disagree with the order

[2ndchosen1]

I mean, I'm gonna scour Kazyan's ISO tonight cause of the vote order thing having me super wary
but otherwise yes

[Lunar Martian]

Why does the vote order matter? Are we about to see some vengeful/supersaint/whatever action?

[Kazyan]

The point is that if the scumteam is somehow unwnd/2ndchosen1, the order is maximally inconvenient for 2ndchosen1 to surprise-change his vote to hammer me. He would have to wait for Lunar to vote, and then change his vote before Dannflor decides what to do. This order also does not get in the way of town's goals in the case of any other team.

But the actual purpose of the proposal was to gauge reactions. If 2ndchosen1 questioned it and Lunar didn't, that would tell me I needed to more seriously consider the case of unwnd/2ndchosen1 instead of death tunneling on unwnd/Lunar. But that didn't happen--instead, everyone except for Dannflor questioned the order, and with all respect to Dannflor, his reaction to the proposal would not provide me with any information about the scumteam. So I didn't gain any extra information about the different motivations between Lunar and 2ndchosen1.

Therefore, go ahead and do whatever, I guess. I'm going to stop quietly tearing my hair out over the "but what if it

is

2ndchosen1???" possibility and just accept that if we execute unwnd tonight, I will use my last shot on Lunar and leave the rest to Datisi.

[unwnd]

Dann if you vote me over Kaz after that post I don't even know what to say lol

[Kazyan]

I think Dann might faint from the pressure if we keep arguing

This is one hell of a hot seat to sit in when you apparently expected to be killed during Night 2 at the latest

[Dannflor]

Dann if you vote me over Kaz after that post I don't even know what to say lol

not helpful

I'll lay out my thought process tonight and hopefully come to a decision by tomorrow