N/A; 'Kaz' is okay (but Kazyan is preferred); and...much much less than NPOM, I guess? I'm new. This is my first game.In post 6, ben dover123 wrote:Best game as town or scum?
Nicknames?
How is your activity going to be this game?
VOTE: Papa Zito
N/A; 'Kaz' is okay (but Kazyan is preferred); and...much much less than NPOM, I guess? I'm new. This is my first game.In post 6, ben dover123 wrote:Best game as town or scum?
Nicknames?
How is your activity going to be this game?
All the time.In post 99, Elements wrote:Does anyone else automatically assume any new person is a Hectic alt?
Baby's first theory: If someone does something disruptive to the smooth flow of the game (but isn't actually scummy), the scum can be quick to rally against them, because that looks like a safe way to go through the motions of sticking their neck out and not be a lurker. From what I've observed, a scum-led "kick this person out" movement feels a little different than people just voting on the disruptor independently.In post 194, Papa Zito wrote:Which behaviors are those?In post 170, Kazyan wrote:I don't have any solid reads because I'm drunk on that Noob Juice, but the assessment of Elements seems plausible based on similar behaviors I've observed in Mafia-adjacent games.
Ben was pretty insistent on giving LM a chance there. Possibilities:In post 216, Alchemist21 wrote:What do you make of the reactions?
I can't come up with a reason (WIFOM-based or otherwise) that an experienced townie would act the way that Elements has. Any one (or two) of the things Hayker has cited would just have just been a normal and routine judgment error. But all together, it adds up to either scum, a wacky role combination, or me not knowing what I'm talking about.In post 244, Papa Zito wrote:Ok, so now that you've re-evaluated Elements, what is your opinion on that slot?
It does, though. It has as much analysis as is appropriate to portray based on the small amount of evidence we have. ProbablyIn post 252, Lunar Martian wrote:Which of the four scenarios do you think is most likely? None of this post really has any analysis.
Exactly what Hayker said.In post 256, Dannflor wrote:Can you break down and ELI5 what exactly Elements has done that is out of line with expected experienced townie behavior?
In post 270, Papa Zito wrote:VOTE: Kazyan
What part of what Hayker said do you agree with? Can you tie what Hayker said with "expected experienced townie behavior"?
Pushing this early seems weird, since there wasn't really anything to push about. Wagoning on an early disruption is vaguely scummy, as I've explained in a previous post of mine. There's no reason to OMGUS if you're town.In post 249, Hayker wrote:I'm very comfortable with my vote on elements right now. He pushed someone elses vote, opportunistically hopped on the lunar wagon, OMGUS voted me. I feel the pressure is where it is needed for now.
Can you explain your last two votes elements?
Hayker was the one who prodded me into joining Mafiascum.net, so I'm overcohering to his post. It does, however, appear to be a good summary of Element's choices that I'm skeptical over. Additionally, after my previous goof, I don't actually trust myself to get a good understanding of Elements's actions without some sort of outside validation. So I keep gesturing vaguely at Hayker because they said something that I completely agree with, and I don't know what else to say besides what Hayker said.In post 271, ben dover123 wrote:I don't like this either. You and Hayker aren't buddy-buddy's.
I'm feeling LM is town now from his recent posts.
I mean. What exactly could I possibly say, at this point? You say I'm giving no indication of my thought process in a post where you've straight-up quoted my thought process. I've directly stated that I don't trust my judgment on Elements without external confirmation, which is what Hayker provided, and then I used his post as an outline to describe my thoughts. That pairs with the initial post I made:In post 301, Papa Zito wrote:It's not weird in the least. You're not giving any indication of your thought process here. Pointing to someone else's post and saying "yeah that" doesn't tell me whatyou'rethinking. I have to sort your slot. I have to figure out if you got a green or red role PM. The only way for me to do that is to get inside your head. Currently you're doing your level best to prevent me from doing so. The pushback and hand-waving only makes me more suspicious.
I've given my full opinion and the ideas behind it.In post 253, Kazyan wrote:I can't come up with a reason (WIFOM-based or otherwise) that an experienced townie would act the way that Elements has. Any one (or two) of the things Hayker has cited would just have just been a normal and routine judgment error. But all together, it adds up to either scum, a wacky role combination, or me not knowing what I'm talking about.
100% correct. Previous posts by me have largely drawn an unexpected amount of shade because my rationale wasn't completely exhaustive, so I gave an exhaustive rationale this time. I'm comfortable with being called scummy for giving as much information as I can to the town.In post 369, Gamma Emerald wrote:I'm not exactly a fan of this post, specifically the omnibus of reasons to unvote Elements. It looks like Kazyan is quite worried about the optics of that move.
1) I mean, yeah. I sheeped. That happened. I'm not going to defend it, because I definitely sheeped.In post 385, Gamma Emerald wrote:That seems understandable but there's also the sheeping issues and I feel like it's a bit excessive even then?
I'm curious where Alchemist said anything about lack of optics concern though. Alchemist, if that is correct, why do you find that scummy of Kazyan?
Your vote did not factor into my decision. I do not know, or care, if you're bussing Penguin.In post 387, NoPowerOverMe wrote:@Kazyan: It seems wierd that you voted for PP, which I pushed, AND you said my wagon was tempting. Do you think I am bussing PP?
They are, but the fact of the matter is that I didn't consider them. I hear that Day 1 interaction analysis isn't good.In post 390, NoPowerOverMe wrote:You don't think potential mafia interactions are an important thing to consider?
'He' is also fine; 'They' is simply preferred. No need to change anything. I actually care more about swapping the Z and Y in my name.In post 413, ben dover123 wrote:*they
sorry for misgendering, I have to review my posts now with so many "they" in the site now
My statement is in deference to what Ben said after I did IA the first time:In post 416, PenguinPower wrote:In case this was missed.
This is the entire basis of me saying that Day 1 IA is bad.In post 221, ben dover123 wrote:The reason that interaction analysis is bad before we have any mod confirmed evidence (hardclaims, flips, innocent townies, etc.) is because you are very likely to encounter bias if you find a interaction that makes the most sense to you. This is bad since without one guaranteed or near guaranteed alignment, anything can really happen, and since interaction analysis is very powerful people can get sucked into the bias really easily and will never take a second look. Right now it is best to just make some good fabricated reads alone rather than in pairs or triplets of people.
Nice bait.In post 420, Gamma Emerald wrote:I think the fact Kazyan is so receptive to criticism rn seems a bit scummy, but could also be a newb thing, though I feel like they’d get a little defensive about something they’ve up to now but the trend seems to be entirely deference.
Basically, this post did it for me:In post 438, Elements wrote:What information have you gained?
Two things happened here: 1) AlchemistIn post 396, Alchemist21 wrote:I think their post was a bs reason made to hide that they’re sheeping the IC.
My head: kicking myself for mixing up the order of events again, re: admission of sweeping, when the posts are public record and I was directly involved in it. I didn't vote Alchemist because I wanted us to talk about him. If I had voted, we would have just had the sheeping debate again.In post 481, Dannflor wrote:Kazyan, where is your head at? What are your reads at?
It looked like you wanted to vote Alchemist in your last post but you held off, is there a reason for that?
Gamma voted me for sheeping. Whatever.In post 490, Dannflor wrote:How do you feel about Gamma's place on your wagon?
Do you have an example of any particular posts that read too nervously to you, and what more information you'd like?In post 652, Hayker wrote:I still very much feel elements is scum, since Friday he has asked for support on two wagons, supported another, and then a silent vote on Alchemist. One of the votes is basicslly asking dann is he'd like to wagon with him. This seems to be an empty persuit for now.
Of the current wagons, i like penguins Iso a bit more every time I read the posts. My biggest sus, elements, has pushed the alchemist wagon several times heavily. I also think Kazyan played rather nervously when the pressure was on them, and I'd like to know why.vote:kazyan
Then vote for me, dayvig me, or shut up. I'm done being yelled at for talking strategy.In post 670, Lunar Martian wrote:Dislike this.
Since he was bulletproof, if this breadcrumbed fake role had worked, he would have been shot during Night 1--and then Bulletproof would have negated that. The plan seemed to have been to make the Mafia waste their shot and then to detect who reacted to the breadcrumb before he made it public. This would explain his reluctance to state a role during the first E-1.In post 723, Alchemist21 wrote:I crumbed in my very first post which is why I have reason to believe scum could have picked up on it and avoided my wagon.
I wouldn't cast an equal amount of shade on 2ndchosen1 and HeWhoSwims as the other two, simply because 2nd and HWS have not been as chatty. I'm coming around to the "Gamma is scum" idea, honestly. Pointing finger of suspicion at Gamma, but we have a Hayker fish to fry.In post 764, Elements wrote:Upon going through Hayker's iso:
PenguinPower - 2 Confirmed town
Alchemist21 - 2 + V Confirmed town
HeWhoSwims - 0
NoPowerOverMe - 0
AGar ben dover123 - 2 Confirmed town
Papa Zito - 4 + V + TR
Elements - 6 + V
2ndchosen1 - 0
Dannflor - 1 Confirmed town
Gamma Emerald - 1/2
Lunar Martian - 1
Kazyan - 4 + V
The only progression on anyone is Papa Zito from voting in RVS to a town read due to meta from [over a decade ago].
Pushed me the entire day without rlly looking at anyone else until the Alch wagon.
13p so 2/3 maf, I'm leaning three given the flips so far + vig shot.
Given the associations here I'd be looking in [NPOM, HeWhoSwims, 2ndchosen1, Gamma] as partners
What? Hayker made that claimIn post 790, HeWhoSwims wrote:Idk. Maybe I believe too much in the good side of people or whatever but it would seem outlandish to me to fakeclaim a full doctor of all roles, place the hammer, defend the claim up and down and especially in a game where we already have 3PRs on the table right now -- would scum dare to do that? Would it be worth it to ask a possible other protective to "counterclaim", seeing if we have a doc its out on the table already, or is that incredibly dumb?
This random post, given apropos of nothing in the middle of the "Gamma and Elements are scum" discussion, is living rent-free in my head.In post 917, Elements wrote:There was a grand total of 1 interaction between NPOM/unwd and Hayker day 1 and that was NPOM begrudgingly voting near the end of the day.
Scumbuddies!
2ndchosen1's posts look really safe and inoffensive to me--even when he disagrees with someone, the points are more the vein of providing nuance/completeness than 'you are wrong because of reasons'. This makes me think he might be the jailkeeper laying low.In post 1128, unwnd wrote:I don't hate it
But where does it come from exactly? As in, your posts to me didn't seem like they had a thought process I could follow
I see no way that this would benefit the town.In post 1131, northsidegal wrote:i would like to hear people's thoughts on the merits of a massclaim today
In post 1142, northsidegal wrote:i think that your understanding of the way that scum plays is flawed. you also assume—and i say this while knowing full well that i am not very good at scum—that i am an absolutelyIn post 1140, Lunar Martian wrote:This also feels like Mafia throwing out an idea that would benefit them, and then backing off immediately when the idea gets shut down.terribleplayer. i'm not stupid. if i were scum proposing some idea to benefit me as scum, i wouldn't propose it without any sort of at least plausible justification. i wouldn't just throw some plan to benefit scum out with no reasoning and then back down the instant someone says "i disagree". i think that my progression there really only makes sense as genuine, and my lack of elaboration was deliberate.
This line of argument isn't convincing. "You're accusing me of a bad move, but I don't make bad moves" is some seriously weak tea.In post 1155, northsidegal wrote:and, again, on the "role fishing", i'd point you to 1142. i may not be great at scum but i am certainly not stupid, and stupid is what i would have to be in order for that to be me "role fishing" as scum.
My dude. Why.In post 1156, Dannflor wrote:for the record, I have also been pondering the merits of a mass claim today
Hm. I'm not fully convinced, but this explanation seems okay on the surface.In post 1153, 2ndchosen1 wrote:As for "Nuance" I'm not doing IIoA as I do list my conclusions and reasonings in my posts. As for completeness, I would rather hear someone's thoughts to completion as to make a better judgement and as such provide what I think to completion as much as I can in my posts, to the point that I quote or put post number so that my posts are easier to context in ISO, especially since I'm not regularly on. Considering the lack of questions on my stuff until now, I'd like to think I accomplish that.
as for not pushing stuff see below
Yep; I saw what IIn post 1161, Lunar Martian wrote:There's a reason I didn't continue to pressure northside. It's interesting that Kazyan is piggybacking off of me to continue the pressure there.
Okay, so here's the post:In post 1208, 2ndchosen1 wrote:Kazyan is the strongest read for Town I've got. We've got similar reads in 1123. I generally like his reasoning and thought layout. Motives seem solid and explained. I would like to know what he sees in 1122 that it's living in his head.
If you go back from that about 3-4 pages or so and skim all the way up to Elements's post, the arc of the conversation topic is largely "We were thinking Papa Zito is scum, but we're starting to think that second slot might be Gamma, actually?". So, in the middle of all of that, right when Dannflor is changing his mind, Elements pops in and asserts that NPOM/unwnd is scum based on some vaguely-plausible reason. And it's not, like, drawing a parallel to the reasons that PZ and Gamma are being discussed or anything; it's an unrelated thing. It's spontaneous and also doesn't go anywhere that day.In post 917, Elements wrote:There was a grand total of 1 interaction between NPOM/unwd and Hayker day 1 and that was NPOM begrudgingly voting near the end of the day.
Scumbuddies!
Emphasis mine. Dannflor has survived two nights by now, and the only good explanation is that the Mafia are still hunting down PRs in order to use their Jailkeeper--which, at the time of writing this post, was a secret. Dannflor only went public with it in #829. If HWS had gotten his way, then they could have targeted that hypothetical real doctor (or other PR) with the Jailkeeper, then point their Mafia kills somewhere consistent with whatever fake-doctor Hayker's plans were. Something like that. The possibilities are wide, here. I know HWS isn't here to defend himself anymore, but this is so darn scummy considering what we now know.In post 790, HeWhoSwims wrote:Idk. Maybe I believe too much in the good side of people or whatever but it would seem outlandish to me to fakeclaim a full doctor of all roles, place the hammer, defend the claim up and down and especially in a game where we already have 3PRs on the table right now -- would scum dare to do that?Would it be worth it to ask a possible other protective to "counterclaim", seeing if we have a doc its out on the table already, or is that incredibly dumb?