Micro 994 | Brass and Shrapnel | Game Over!

[Raya36]

If minivirgo can vote because kpop then I can vote because sam and dean
VOTE: minivirgo

[Raya36]

I don't know much about when mass claims are good or not so I'm also for now against it

[Raya36]

I can see a massclaim being helpful later in game to lie detect and try to mechanically solve the game but as it is now I don't think town would gain much info whereas it would really help scum

[Raya36]

What does IC mean again?

[Raya36]

Innocent child most likely.

That makes sense, thanks!

[Raya36]

I found a wolf
VOTE: raya

You caught me... but you know what animal wolves don't like?

VOTE: ejjinami

[Raya36]

I can't see ANY reasonable situation where even a partial vig claim would help us here, honestly.

Kinda sus. Not sure why we'd IC vig's either.

vigs are ICs as long as the mafia kill is identified.
As long as everyone claims their shots right after making them and there’s still 1 left for mafia, those who claimed will have to be town

The shots are at night so you mean everyone claims who they killed the next day? Scum would just have one of their own claim to be a vig and then claim the nk as their shot.

[Raya36]

Idk, personally too much wifom about the 1 scum or no kill for me to be happy with that plan. Mafia no kills and then we're just picking off our vigs because we assumed mafia had no reason to no kill.

All kills will be claimed though. If we go through with this mafia have no choice but to have 1 claim vig and the kill or else we have a bunch of confirmed townies. Unless they're assuming there won't be many vigs that aren't blank and they're ok with that amount getting confirmed. Then they're obvious targets for the kill because they're confirmed town and also confirmed not to be bombs.

[Raya36]

no but on a serious note, i don't think massclaiming is beneficial in that if i'm understanding this correctly, it just sets scum up with an easier path on who to kill/needlessly sets town back a bit.

I can see a massclaim being helpful later in game to lie detect and try to mechanically solve the game but as it is now I don't think town would gain much info whereas it would really help scum

welp... ok
I should have read the entire thread before posting

that’s fair. I forgot about the kill PoE

you're alright. if it helps, i'm just messing with you but i like your flow of thought thereafter and it feels natural. inclined to think this slot is town - i don't see scum asking for a massclaim and then rebounding with "forgetting about kill PoE" - it feels too innocent, like... not sure how to explain that better but i just think ejj's sincere here and would've probably tried to spin it by making up a reason for why massclaim could be beneficial for town if he was scum and had something to gain from it. does that make sense?

That makes sense and I agree

[Raya36]

weirdly worried about raya versus ejj being tvt though, i don't sr either of them after reading their exchange.

Odd thing to be worried about? What's wrong with us being TvT?

[Raya36]

As someone who doesn't know that much about the pros and cons of mass claims, just trying to get my thoughts out even if they're basic

[Raya36]

I'll join you here. That statement made no sense. VOTE: Nepenthe

[Raya36]

As someone who doesn't know that much about the pros and cons of mass claims, just trying to get my thoughts out even if they're basic

Mass-claims is generally a mid to late game thing once we've gotten a few flips and the benefits of claiming outweighs the benefits of the opposite. Right now doesn't seem like that's a great idea.

I think I've only ever done last day mass claims and I can't think of many setups where I'd be comfortable with a D1 massclaim

[Raya36]

The setup contains 3-5 vigilantes, and 2-4 bombs or supersaints.

Bombs remaining unclaimed will make Mafia ultimately scared as to who to shoot and/or waste their utility with the factional doctor shot (which I didn't know existed until reading the mechanics again) or not shoot at all as a double down of framing a Vigilante claim and/or using the Mafia NK to secure a claim themselves . Although this can also double kill Town which doubles down as clearing PoE if the vigilantes are being scum-read. Bombs shouldn't claim and neither should Supersaints, and in extension Vigilantes claiming will out both and that's not good so I'm against a mass-claim. We can probably utilize Supersaints by getting select players to hammer as well to be fair.

This was midnight setup spec though so probably wrong, now I'm done with that and I'm on to reading people.

Come to think of it, from memory ejji yeeted iioa on us immediately and is reading Kop as scum because they are doing iioa as well?

- JV

I like the selecting a pool to do the hammers idea.

[Raya36]

Why are you worried about having two townreads

Mindmelded here, this can have a town-lean for now.

Regarding this, I am not entirely sure if this is reliable as Raya also said it.

I think it was something mafia could have easily said. It's an odd statement no matter what that kind of stands out

[Raya36]

I'll join you here. That statement made no sense. VOTE: Nepenthe

This wolfie has sheeps clothing!

I mean I pointed out the statement being weird first of us two but I turned out to not even be the first overall still

[Raya36]

[Raya36]

I'll join you here. That statement made no sense. VOTE: Nepenthe

and that’s how a wagon, with even less reasoning than my vote on kop, forms.

Not opposed, you just likely won’t get anything from that. This is not a good reason to lynch a player who’s at least trying to progress the game

Nothing wrong with some pressure and 2 votes is better than 1

[Raya36]

Raya seems to be just chilling in an adorable way xD

I will not let myself be buddied

[Raya36]

I like to move my vote around and vote players for pressure to help sort, not necessarily because I'd be ok with them being elimed. Targeting players for low contribution is ok but I don't think necessarily the best move and what I'm doing is equally good. Focusing on a player that won't get elimed does help and it doesn't mean I'm only focusing on them.

[Raya36]

It really sounded like you meant you were concerned that you got a townread on both of us from the interaction

[Raya36]

That whole interaction with Kop was weird on Kop's side. The scumslip I can see but I don't think scum with any experience would panic and claim like that. Especially in the middle of defending themselves.

[Raya36]

Welcome NotMafia

[Raya36]

Ejjinami is scum based on page 1, I may or may not read page 2

I know I won't get an explanation but always worth a try

[Raya36]

A miracle!

You think 15 is something scum would say to try to blend in?

And I assume you're unhappy with the massclaim portion of 14?

[Raya36]

I'm still not fully convinced this is a scumslip. I think the possibility of a genuinely confused townie is there. What's throwing me off is the claim. Especially where he supposedly is against mass-claiming, I don't see why he snuck a claim in.

[Raya36]

Also if Kop is scum shouldn't he be aware that the doctor is a scum role, not a town role? And I don't think this makes sense for trying to play the oblivious townie card.

[Raya36]

Maybe I'm just overthinking it and helping slipped scum though

[Raya36]

I'm still not fully convinced this is a scumslip. I think the possibility of a genuinely confused townie is there. What's throwing me off is the claim. Especially where he supposedly is against mass-claiming, I don't see why he snuck a claim in.

I wasn't entirely convinced it was a full slip myself,but ya know, D1 you need something to poke at. The claim and later justification attempts kinda sold me on it though.

The justification wasn't horrible considering it has been a bit since he played here. It doesn't make that much sense to me but it is possible. But the claim was horrible and written in a way that looked like he didn't want it to stand out.

[Raya36]

Why T-Bone?

[Raya36]

He didn't really do anything that stood out to me in that sense

[Raya36]

Please laugh.

[Raya36]

Welcome Brass

[Raya36]

It's early to think about but even if Kop didn't slip he's probably not a good slot to have towards endgame so I'm not opposed at all to eliminating him

[Raya36]

Hey Kop, if it wasn't your old games that made you think a doctor is an expected role in most games then why did you assume there'd be a doctor?

[Raya36]

It's early to think about but even if Kop didn't slip he's probably not a good slot to have towards endgame so I'm not opposed at all to eliminating him

What gives you that assumption?

Because if it comes down to it at endgame I would always eliminate you because of that slip unless you give me a good reason as to why it wasn't a slip

[Raya36]

But even the basic setups like the normals don't always have doctors

[Raya36]

Why would thinking there's a doctor be a scumslip?

Because doctor is a possible role for scum. It's doctor or roleblocker. Kop assumed there was 1 doctor

[Raya36]

I imagine if it was a scumslip his partner is staying on the quiet side about it. It would look bad for them to defend him but his partner might also be unsure about bussing yet

[Raya36]

But even the basic setups like the normals don't always have doctors

Majority of the basic games have doctors.

But it's not a given

[Raya36]

Also if Brass is still on Kop I think this is E-1

[Raya36]

I actually can't think of too many games I've played on here that weren't some sort of role madness game that had a doctor. But I'm not a huge fan of normals so maybe that's why? I might take some time tonight to check out Kop's games.

[Raya36]

I missed the question about why people not voting Kop aren't.

I'm leaning towards a Kop elim today but we have plenty of time left and don't need him at E-1 yet

[Raya36]

Procrastination at it's finest:

Spoiler: Kop Doctor Games

LN223 - no doc
MN2095 - no doc
Mic880 - no doc
Mic879 - no doc
LN221 - no doc
MN2038 - no doc
MN2024 - no doc
O735 - no doc
Mic809 - DOCTOR
Mini1990 - no doc
Mini1956 - Sort of doctor
O717 - DOCTOR
O716 - no doc
O712 - DOCTOR
O710 - no doc
MN1984 - no doc
O705 - no doc
O707 - no doc
O697 - no doc
O696 - no doc
O693 - no doc

I think that should be enough to say that Kop should not be assuming a doc role and it's no longer sampling bias

[Raya36]

Yes but the point is, the true vigilantes will know they are blanks right after shooting, but when claiming it, they can't back the claim up so it still doesn't progress us any further forward and we're left aiming at a pool of claims to sort through and giving scum a path of where they can shoot within because they will know who the real vigilante is, and what pool the

doctor

, bombs, and supersaints are in.

In this post Kop assumes there is a doctor. There is no town doctor but there is a chance of a scum doctor. He claims that he didn't read the setup and knew about the vigs, bombs, and supersaints from conversation in the thread, and he just assumed that there would be a doctor because most basic games have a doctor (not true). His past games don't suggest he should be assuming a doctor because very few of his most recent past games had a doctor.

[Raya36]

Yeah same. The only thing I'm confused about is if he is scum and knows that one of his buddies is a doctor then why assume that it's also a town role?

[Raya36]

Ok so then they have both and can choose one each night

[Raya36]

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a slip but it makes even less sense as genuine and also way too large of a coincidence that scum have the doctor ability

[Raya36]

Procrastination at it's finest:

Spoiler: Kop Doctor Games

LN223 - no doc
MN2095 - no doc
Mic880 - no doc
Mic879 - no doc
LN221 - no doc
MN2038 - no doc
MN2024 - no doc
O735 - no doc
Mic809 - DOCTOR
Mini1990 - no doc
Mini1956 - Sort of doctor
O717 - DOCTOR
O716 - no doc
O712 - DOCTOR
O710 - no doc
MN1984 - no doc
O705 - no doc
O707 - no doc
O697 - no doc
O696 - no doc
O693 - no doc

I think that should be enough to say that Kop should not be assuming a doc role and it's no longer sampling bias

I fucking love you.

Just goes to show that I'll do literally anything but what I need to do

[Raya36]

So you don't think it was a slip?

[Raya36]

We should get everyone's opinions first. There's still plenty of time for other interactions too

[Raya36]

Procrastination at it's finest:

Spoiler: Kop Doctor Games

LN223 - no doc
MN2095 - no doc
Mic880 - no doc
Mic879 - no doc
LN221 - no doc
MN2038 - no doc
MN2024 - no doc
O735 - no doc
Mic809 - DOCTOR
Mini1990 - no doc
Mini1956 - Sort of doctor
O717 - DOCTOR
O716 - no doc
O712 - DOCTOR
O710 - no doc
MN1984 - no doc
O705 - no doc
O707 - no doc
O697 - no doc
O696 - no doc
O693 - no doc

I think that should be enough to say that Kop should not be assuming a doc role and it's no longer sampling bias

Yeah that probably proves that they slipped tbf, whether or not that's a scum-slip is debatable, although I'm leaning towards that it is.

- JV

I'm thinking Kop is just scum too. He hasn't done much unrelated to mechanics or the slip thing. His latest townreading me and Flea for pushing the slip and analyzing the reactions sounds like scum trying to sound indifferent.

Anyone voting Kop and putting them at lolhammer range with N_M in the game should be considered a scum-claim, I am not taking this lightly

Idk, I think it's best for more content since we have 4 days or so left. But the game has been pretty stagnant so maybe we need a flip.

[Raya36]

Why don't you think my push comes from scum?

But it's clearly not a common role in basic setups. A lot of your games were opens and normals and very few had doctors.

[Raya36]

Why don't you think my push comes from scum?

But it's clearly not a common role in basic setups. A lot of your games were opens and normals and very few had doctors.

I just don't think scum would go to the level that you have gone to try disprove such statements.

Like I said, I don't remember what roles were in the previous games that I've played in. Also It doesn't mean that it's not common in other basic games that I haven't participated in.

If you're town that's exactly what you should be thinking scum would do though?

If you can't remember the roles in the games you've participated in I doubt the games you haven't would influence your understanding of how common doc is

[Raya36]

Why don't you think my push comes from scum?

But it's clearly not a common role in basic setups. A lot of your games were opens and normals and very few had doctors.

I just don't think scum would go to the level that you have gone to try disprove such statements.

Like I said, I don't remember what roles were in the previous games that I've played in. Also It doesn't mean that it's not common in other basic games that I haven't participated in.

If you're town that's exactly what you should be thinking scum would do though?

If you can't remember the roles in the games you've participated in I doubt the games you haven't would influence your understanding of how common doc is

Well at the stage we're at, I'm on what, 3 votes, and the influence is going in this direction, I don't think scum would have to go to the extent to keep it progressing when it's been the talk of the past couple of pages. The only thing that would come from this if it was scum mindset, was to buy credibility when the lynch is eventually done. But I just don't see that from your tone and effort.

Scum effort too. I effort more as scum actually. If you're town how do you know 2 if the 3 votes aren't scum and the other is just mislead town?

[Raya36]

NM, is there a reason you prefer Kop over Nepenthe?

[Raya36]

Do you have a read on Nepenthe or anyone else? Do you still think Tbone and Brass are scum?

[Raya36]

Nepenthe is the counter wagon to Kop right now. I think for being worried about me and ejj being TvT

[Raya36]

It's been pretty quiet. Anyone opposed to me bringing Kop to E-1?

[Raya36]

Well I know you're not opposed

[Raya36]

Ah got it. Very convincing

[Raya36]

Alright, I'll make sure at least a couple other people are ok with it or someone else can, doesn't matter

[Raya36]

There's only a day and a half left and its been more or less silent the past couple days

[Raya36]

I don't think Saudade would completely ignore his buddies slip when there's very little chance of saving him

[Raya36]

Wow the entire Kop wagon moved to Saudade.

Ok well I can do this now I guess VOTE: Kop

[Raya36]

I'm still not really seeing Saudade as scum. I'd much prefer we go for Kop then look at votes and interactions

[Raya36]

What are the chances of it being an honest mistake that he thought there was a town doctor of all roles when that just happened to be a scum ability. And his defense doesn't make sense.

I didn't jump on the wagon because if I joined and made it 4 votes NM would have immediately hammered. Now that I'm not bringing it to E-1 I'm safe to join.

[Raya36]

They could but I don't mind Kop getting limmed now. We're very close to the end of the day and just the last page I was basically stating intent

[Raya36]

How do you know he's pushing inactive town?

[Raya36]

But Saudade could be pushing inactive scum. You said inactive town. Not just inactive players in general.

Maybe I'm getting nitpicky now

[Raya36]

Ok, I still think you're scum though.

I think you're coming in to make a statement that sounds like you're doing something but you didn't take any stance on Saudade that we can analyze once you flip. We just know you think these reasons support him being town and these reasons support him being scum. And the theory in 354 is to make us think you're just lhf.

[Raya36]

Do you have a stance on Saudade, Kop?

[Raya36]

That's E-2 but NME-1

[Raya36]

Agreed and we're pretty much at the end of the day anyway

[Raya36]

Kop already claimed vig so if we're happy with that we don't need to wait for a claim

[Raya36]

Again, nobody wanted to bring Kop to E-1 with NM in the game. I mentioned that I wouldn't be bringing Kop to E-1 with NM in the game. Others have mentioned this too. Nobody wanted a hammer yet. It's not weird

[Raya36]

I thought I was very vocal about wanting Kop to be the elimination. My vote didn't reflect that because of NME-1 and I was also very vocal about why I was not voting Kop. I don't understand how you see me as fence-sitting and I'm not sure if this read on me is in good faith.

[Raya36]

You might be right that I didn't share too much outside of Kop reads, I can't remember what I've posted vs what's just in my head, but I definitely wasn't fence-sitting on Kop.

[Raya36]

Or the vigs didn't shoot

[Raya36]

That is probably not the mafia kill. Mafia ain't killing a slot with 8 posts and a slot with LHF potential.

Yeah I'm thinking the same. Seems mafia didn't kill for whatever reason and we have at least 1 working vig. And the other was either Kop, didn't shoot, target was healed

[Raya36]

Actually that's a really good point. I wonder why they went for that slot though. Maybe they liked the current game state and didn't want the slot becoming active to potentially change things?

[Raya36]

If that's the case, I feel like Flea might be a good elimination today. They only keep it the same if we were on the wrong course yesterday.

I just feel like Flea might have become something like a leader and probably would be the person happiest with no real change due to a night kill. It was also a kill off wagon, so there's likely at least one scum on wagon.

VOTE: Flea

I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with voting for a leader. Scum might like the game state without being the leaders, and the leaders are just off track town.

[Raya36]

Why did you shoot nepenthe?

[Raya36]

Maybe mafia shot Nepenthe and used their doc ability? And then because mafia already shot Nepenthe then NM shooting Nepenthe did nothing because they were already dead or NM is just blank?

[Raya36]

Maybe mafia shot Nepenthe and used their doc ability? And then because mafia already shot Nepenthe then NM shooting Nepenthe did nothing because they were already dead or NM is just blank?

Wh would scum shoot nepenthe?

My only guess is to preserve the game state

[Raya36]

It's not realistic that a vig shooting a bomb didn't die. I don't think you're lying though. I think scum shot nepenthe and you shot as well but you're blank

[Raya36]

Apparently considering 2 vigs have claimed already

Although possible at least 1 is mafia trying to bait a mass claim?

[Raya36]

Couple notes:
-Flea drove the wagon away from Kop to Saudade. I don't see why scum would pull the wagon away from a viable and likely miselim to someone else
-T-Bone and Brass both followed this. Potential scum here
-T-Bone's reasoning was because Saudade was doing nothing while Kop was still trying
-I still don't fully understand why T-Bone thinks I could be scum for voting Kop after they moved to Saudade
-Brass's only mention of Saudade was his vote on him.
-MiniVirgo feels town

VOTE: Brass

[Raya36]

Although quite suspicious that the Kop wagon was sitting there for days, and you only jump on when we shift it to Saudade.

This makes no sense when it was very clear I was avoiding NME-1

I mean, the other three votes shifted pretty quickly to Saudade, and thus, have a willingness to change votes quickly and could do so again. So that's a poor excuse.

This doesn't make it a poor excuse. It was in my control to not put Kop at NME-1 but I'm not going to hold my vote when there's an empty wagon just because people

could

move back to the wagon and bring it to NME-1.

I'm going to voice that it is still weird that we couldn't get the votes for Kop until after Flea/brass/I moved off of Kop briefly

NME-1

I disagree and will continue to say as such. You've sat on the fence all day. So I'm pointing that out for the benefit of everyone else and their reads going forward.

I was very vocal about not wanting Kop hammered yet but wanting him to be the elimination

I can't think of a single read you've expressed other than Kop, which is crazy since you have the most posts. I have an idea about nearly every other player in this game. Nothing stands out about you. Nothing that you've done, nothing that you've said. If you want to change that, please by all means. You've been sort of but not really but kinda yeah locked into kop-scum and that's about it.

You may have other reads and thoughts about the game and that's great. But I don't know what they are, and I doubt anyone else does either. That's a problem, and why I am bringing it up as we close out Day 1. You are playing like Kop is minus the scumslip.

This is the only valid point and it's irrelevant to me holding off my Kop vote that you scumread me for.

[Raya36]

Who the fuck is Saudade again?

You voted him...

[Raya36]

VOTE: saudade

I really don't care who it is, at this point we just need an elimination.

Day 1 reads are trash.

[Raya36]

Kop was still viable though

[Raya36]

Although quite suspicious that the Kop wagon was sitting there for days, and you only jump on when we shift it to Saudade.

This makes no sense when it was very clear I was avoiding NME-1

I mean, the other three votes shifted pretty quickly to Saudade, and thus, have a willingness to change votes quickly and could do so again. So that's a poor excuse.

This doesn't make it a poor excuse. It was in my control to not put Kop at NME-1 but I'm not going to hold my vote when there's an empty wagon just because people

could

move back to the wagon and bring it to NME-1.

I'm going to voice that it is still weird that we couldn't get the votes for Kop until after Flea/brass/I moved off of Kop briefly

NME-1

I disagree and will continue to say as such. You've sat on the fence all day. So I'm pointing that out for the benefit of everyone else and their reads going forward.

I was very vocal about not wanting Kop hammered yet but wanting him to be the elimination

I can't think of a single read you've expressed other than Kop, which is crazy since you have the most posts. I have an idea about nearly every other player in this game. Nothing stands out about you. Nothing that you've done, nothing that you've said. If you want to change that, please by all means. You've been sort of but not really but kinda yeah locked into kop-scum and that's about it.

You may have other reads and thoughts about the game and that's great. But I don't know what they are, and I doubt anyone else does either. That's a problem, and why I am bringing it up as we close out Day 1. You are playing like Kop is minus the scumslip.

This is the only valid point and it's irrelevant to me holding off my Kop vote that you scumread me for.

I was very clear. You don't get to say it makes no sense when you literally quoted the entire explanation LOL

This post of Raya's is not scumhunting.

I agree I haven't done much for scumhunting yet but what makes no sense is that you think me voting Kop after the wagon moved to Saudade to be scum-motivated

[Raya36]

Kop was still viable though

I was the only one on Kop at that moment, you came in a few posts later.

Not super into vanity wagons late in the day or your straight bullshit to get shade on me.

But Kop was still viable because people were expressing interest in voting there but nobody did because NME-1 and there was still time left

[Raya36]

I think her reasons on me are bullshit and I called it out, TBone is saying she's scum.

I fully believe town can engage in bullshitting as much as scum can because they decide something then have confirmation bias.

But, yeah, I feel like she's digging in on a stupid position because she doesn't want to admit she was wrong.

Wrong about what? I was for sure wrong on Kop. And I think it's very possible scum is within the 3 that switched wagon.

[Raya36]

Technically, by that reasoning, anyone is viable unless they're an innocent child.

I'm saying Kop was viable because people had interest in eliminating him

[Raya36]

Maybe I'm fully off and my brain is fried from trying to code all day but if scum is a part of the group that switched wagons together then I think Brass is the most likely.

It's possible both scum were on the final Kop wagon but if I'm not mistaken it's more likely 1 was on and 1 was off. If that's true than the only living players off the Kop wagon are Brass and MiniVirgo who I think is town.

On wagon I'm not too sure. I'm leaning town on Flea, Saudade I'm not too sure about, T-Bone's read on me feels weird but I'm willing to drop it at a difference in opinion and perspective, NM is impossible to read.

[Raya36]

Can you explain a little more about the Saudade read? I don't really have an opinion there

[Raya36]

I actually quite like Raya's thinking, T-Bone has outgrown his walker...

VOTE: saudade

The posts there aren't sitting right with me.

I think DSausage is relatively cleared due to the NK. Could be wrong but if they were the elimination after Kop/nepenthe and nepenthe was shot BY the Mafia. It doesn't make much sense at all, unless scum lolshotted. In that case DSausage and Not_Mafia could be it, but here DSausage voted the so idk

- JV

This makes sense

[Raya36]

Why MiniVirgo?

They've felt pretty town to me

[Raya36]

Like I think honestly if GeorgeBailey went and deleted all of MiniVirgo's posts, no one would notice.

Which while is it an indictment on town!MV... it falls in line with what good scum play might look like, and it is very noticeable to me right now. How does this player have more posts than me and be such a ghost???

Funny thing is when I mentioned this at the end of day 1 (looking through their ISO after looking through Raya's ISO), I thought to myself 'okay, they are invisible, but look they are posting stances on more players than Raya is'. Hence my focus on Raya at the end of Day 1 plus the start of this day.

While I'm not satisfied that Raya has given much more in the way of reads and trying to sort players on Day 1, at least she now has a personality in my head canon, so that's a kind of progress.

Personality is good. I'll take that

MiniVirgo felt town to me in general but not overwhelmingly. I definitely didn't find them to be unnoticeable

[Raya36]

I can't do that for anyone without looking almost ever

[Raya36]

My memory is non-existant

[Raya36]

I think they were worried about me being partners with someone early on. I thought they liked you. Otherwise I'm not sure without checking

[Raya36]

No worries.

Why is someone not standing out necessarily scummy? I still think they posted a good amount of reads and stances even if they may not have been as loud about it as others.

[Raya36]

Thoughts on Brass voting Saudade last round? That and PoE are pointing to them being scum for me

[Raya36]

What was scummy about the series of posts though?

[Raya36]

Thoughts on Brass voting Saudade last round? That and PoE are pointing to them being scum for me

I would have to look back to see when exactly they voted them, I don't recall them specifically voting them at all. I just know they were speed-wagoned

- JV

They essentially moved over during the speed wagon to get an elim but besides then they never made mention of Saudade

[Raya36]

There was no intent placed on you?

[Raya36]

I'm just going to claim now since we are at NM-1, I'm a soup Saint. So like town hammering me is a really bad idea

OK so who do you want to hammer you, and who do you think is scum?

Also I'm pretty sure as known as NM is, they ain't the type to potentially self hammer... right?

I don't even think NM is nearly as hammer happy any day after D1?

[Raya36]

Also supersaint is what mafia should be claiming right?

[Raya36]

It seems that there's a different set of players pushing for Brass than there was pushing for Kop too which makes me feel a better about this elim.

[Raya36]

I don't want minivirgo limmed

[Raya36]

Rephrase, I don't want to risk minivirgo getting limmed if we're wrong about Brass

[Raya36]

dont let him hammer

Why don't you want NM to hammer?

[Raya36]

You were the one wanting NM eliminated?

[Raya36]

Because I think minivirgo is town

[Raya36]

I'm fine with a hammer happening now as well

[Raya36]

V/LA until Thursday night

[Raya36]

Ok, one more on brass so NM can hammer

[Raya36]

VOTE: Brass

[Raya36]

Vote Brass with me

[Raya36]

We could try a mass claim? Is that beneficial for us at this point in the game?

[Raya36]

Let's wait to see what everyone else says about it first. I seriously have no clue when mass claims are beneficial or not.

Also NME-1

[Raya36]

You're saying scum no-killed again?

[Raya36]

What if we VOTE: T-Bone

[Raya36]

Why would scum!NM claim both kills?

Opinion on a mass claim?

[Raya36]

I'm a vig. I didn't shoot first night and I shot at T-Bone last night but it appears I'm not charged.

(Didn't shoot first night because I at first had no idea who I wanted to shoot and meant to come back to it and ended up forgetting)

[Raya36]

We have the exact same poe and based on NMs willingness to hammer the ss claim he is either town and really believes Brass is scum. Or Brass is his scum partner so he knows he won't die too and he'll get a lot of town cred. I think NM+Brass is very possible.

VOTE: Brass and NM hammers. Exactly what didn't go through last day

I've been town reading Saudade but can you very quickly run through why he's town by NKA?

[Raya36]

Because Brass is your partner? Or you're scum and you know Brass is telling the truth and you don't want to hammer?

[Raya36]

Who is MiniVirgo's partner then?

[Raya36]

Our reads align and I've been townreading MiniVirgo. They said exactly what I was thinking just adding in a few things like the 24h earlier "deadline".

Who would MiniVirgo's partner be besides me because I know that's not true.

[Raya36]

The fact that MiniVirgo is so confident that Brass is scum but is unwilling to risk a hammer says it all. Their plan hinges on a Brass scumflip. But they aren't willing to risk a hammer? The game is over if Brass is town....UNLESS MiniVirgo is scum. town!MiniVirgo who truly thinks Brass +Bone or NM is scum should be volunteering to hammer Brass and test his fakeclaim.

And if you're not his partner, and Brass is in your solve, than why do you have a problem with this? If you're right, then Brass is limmed and the game continues. if I'm right, then MiniVirgo is also limmed and more importantly

the game continues

. One of Brass/MiniVirgo is scum. The way this game played out, dueling wagons yesterday where we didn't get a Lim on time means that one of these two are scum by process of elimination.

If you're gonna respond to anything, it's that second paragraph.

My problem is that I think MiniVirgo is town and I don't want to risk MiniVirgo and Brass both getting eliminated if we're wrong about Brass scum.

[Raya36]

It's not nonsensical. This is a slot that coasted the entire game and is now trying to force a plan in LimLo. That's a scum slot.

It's not really forced. They're just saying we do the exact thing we failed last day. Just adding one other to the pool

[Raya36]

If Brass is town NM and T-Bone

[Raya36]

So it does make sense. I TR MiniVirgo, so why would I want someone I TR to hammer. If I'm wrong about Brass and right about MiniVirgo then that's 2 town gone and the game ends.

Why am I thinking that you know Minivirgo and Brass are town. NM arguing could just be scum theatre.

[Raya36]

If Brass is town NM and T-Bone

If Brass is town there is no solve that doesn't include MiniVirgo. They were the counterwagon to Brass. This is ridiculous. I know that you know 100% that I'm town.

Why would I know you're town. I'm actually thinking you and NM now

[Raya36]

I think you're the one revealing that you know everyone's alignment. Otherwise you'd be considering all possibilities.

I have considered all possibilities. I think it's within you NM and maybe brass. I don't think it's Saudade or MV.

VOTE: TBone

[Raya36]

Cool.

So, Saudade, NM, the solve is MiniVirgo and Raya. What do I have to do to convince you?

I think I laid out a case why I think MiniVirgo is scum between Day 2 and 3, but I can repeat those points as needed. I did confront Raya for being scum late Day 1/Early Day 2, and I think Raya revealed that she knew Brass and MiniVirgo's alignment, and that's why she (and not MiniVirgo mind you) are so against this plan. MiniVirgo could have fought this, but Raya has really been the one against this from the get go. I think town!Raya would a) consider this and b) let MiniVirgo defend themselves against this plan. She has done the opposite of both those things. There is a desperation in her posts to not lose her partner I believe.

If not, let's get on with the missLim. I feel good about my solve, and it is what it is if you don't believe me.

You're either wrong or scum. And maybe my confidence in minivirgo being town is wrongly placed but at limlo with 2 scum I can't really afford to listen to my scumread and be paranoid about my townread.

[Raya36]

I am so confident that if we got Brass to E-1 and Raya or Mini had to be the hammer, we would not get one. They would make excuses. Because I am very confident they both know with certainty that Brass is a Supersaint.

(4 posts in a row I am so sorry)

I would if consensus wanted me to but I'm not gonna volunteer because again, if we're wrong about brass then that's 2 town dead.

How about you, would you hammer Brass?

[Raya36]

That post wasn't addressed to you or an attempt to convince you of anything.

Well yes, I know you weren't trying to convince me I'm scum. Just commenting on the part about me

[Raya36]

Because I want someone I think is scum to hammer my scumread who

alternatively could eliminate the hammerer

.

[Raya36]

Why would I, as town, want to eliminate a claimed supersaint whether I believe them to be scum or not. It makes perfect sense to force a scumread to do it.

[Raya36]

To clear my pov up.

I think Brass could be scum.
I think TBone could be scum.

TBone claims to TR Brass.
TBone wants MV, my TR,, to hammer brass.
I SR TBone.

Maybe TBone knows Brass actually is town.
Explains why he TRs Brass, he can't be expected to be the hammer.
Explains why he wants MV to hammer if MV is town, scum!Tbone would win.
Explains his SR on me, he needs a partner for MV and he knows I won't agree with his plan anyway.

[Raya36]

But then that means you're admitting you know your solve is incorrect (because you know Brass is town). Otherwise eliminating Brass' counterwagon from a town standpoint, makes the most sense. I don't want the rest of you to lose sight of this.

Of course my solve

could

be incorrect. As NM said, insurance.

[Raya36]

If Brass is town, than your read on the entire game is wrong because it hinges on Brass being scum. Vise versa if Brass is scum then my entire read on the game is wrong. The only way to reconcile this in a world where we were both town, is to have MiniVirgo, the counterwagon to Brass, be the other elimination.

The nice thing about me being wrong is that the game continues. The awful thing about you being wrong is that the game ends in scum victory.

But I think Raya is counting on that second part.

How do you know both MV and Brass aren't town though

[Raya36]

But then that means you're admitting you know your solve is incorrect (because you know Brass is town). Otherwise eliminating Brass' counterwagon from a town standpoint, makes the most sense. I don't want the rest of you to lose sight of this.

Of course my solve

could

be incorrect. As NM said, insurance.

And the town's insurance should be town!Brass' counterwagon. But that's the one outcome you don't want.

This is the first post that's made me actually consider this

[Raya36]

Ok so let's way we do go along with your plan.

If MV is scum who is the partner? Because it's not me and that's who you're saying it is right now.

And if Brass is scum then who is his partner?

[Raya36]

I'd like to look into the claims later but we still need Saudade before we can comment on it.

Flea - Dead SuperSaint
Kop - Dead Vigilante
nepenthe -> Dead Bomb
brassherald -> SuperSaint
MiniVirgo -> Bomb
Raya - Vigilante
Not_Mafia -> Vigilante
T-Bone -> Vigilante
DSausage -> Unclaimed

[Raya36]

Let's discuss roles and claims after Saudade claims

[Raya36]

We have the exact same poe and based on NMs willingness to hammer the ss claim he is either town and really believes Brass is scum. Or Brass is his scum partner so he knows he won't die too and he'll get a lot of town cred. I think NM+Brass is very possible.

VOTE: Brass and NM hammers. Exactly what didn't go through last day

I've been town reading Saudade but can you very quickly run through why he's town by NKA?

This is on NM/Brass team

[Raya36]

Flea - Dead SuperSaint
nepenthe -> Dead Bomb
brassherald -> SuperSaint
MiniVirgo -> Bomb

Kop - Dead Vigilante
Raya - Vigilante
Not_Mafia -> Vigilante
T-Bone -> Vigilante
DSausage -> Vigilante

2-4 bombs/ss
3-5 vigs

25% chance of getting 5 vigs

It's HIGHLY unlikely we have 5 vigs and all are blank so we definitely have at least 1, if not 2 scum in that pool.

What do you guys think of the possibility of having 3/4 vigs and NM is telling the truth about doing the kills? That makes the 50/50 work better.

If there is 1 scum in the bomb/ss claims it would be brass as that's the ideal scum claim, and not being able to get his elim though last day makes me feel like that's right.

[Raya36]

@mod when the vigs were decided to be blank or not did each individual vig get a 50% chance of being blank or did 50% of the entire pool become blank?

[Raya36]

I'm inclined to believe NM here

[Raya36]

I'm up for minivirgo hammering brass.

I'll start us off VOTE: Brass

[Raya36]

raya stop flip flopping!!!

Oops

to be fair NM's new claim changes things

[Raya36]

Tiny part of me is wondering if NM just made a really good play and CCed to win the game

[Raya36]

Well if NM is also town then Brass has to be scum

[Raya36]

Shot at Saudade.

Pretty sure NM is town after that claim that got MiniVirgo supersainted.

And T-Bone was pushing for Minivirgo for a while. Could have been bussing though.

[Raya36]

Shot at Saudade.

Pretty sure NM is town after that claim that got MiniVirgo supersainted.

And T-Bone was pushing for Minivirgo for a while. Could have been bussing though.

DON'T YOU EVEN DARE

We're not doing this. That was my read I will take ONE MILLION PERCENT credit for it. They were scummy as fuck and I GOTTEM

Been sitting on this celebration for 2 days don't rain on my parade. Let me have my moment.

If it helps I'm leaning towards you're town. I did shoot at Saudade, not you

[Raya36]

T-Bone had every opportunity yesterday to push for a me hammering Brass elim and didn’t take it. Was early on the mini Virgo push so I’m ruling him out

Then from my perspective it pretty much has to be Saudade

[Raya36]

I’d be up for a NL and forcing scum to take a shot.

@mod What are your rules for endgames with multiple No Elims and No Kills?

I'm ok with this too

[Raya36]

Probably a mix of A and B. Minivirgo wasn't getting out of that, only delaying getting caught

[Raya36]

Also notice how Saudade is the only one now to not agree to no lim

[Raya36]

The vote on you gave me giving up vibes as well

[Raya36]

3 of us are on the same page. 1 of us is not. Either 2 people are being pocketed or scum is just the odd one out

[Raya36]

Why did you shoot NM?

[Raya36]

What made you think he was mafia though

[Raya36]

I'd like to know what Saudade thinks of the no-elim and why they shot at NM first then I'm ready

[Raya36]

Never hurts to try to improve our chances

[Raya36]

VOTE: No Elim

[Raya36]

VOTE: Saudade

[Raya36]

It's not me so you definitely don't have to worry about giving me the win

[Raya36]

I feel like T-Bone wouldn't call his own play gross if it was him

[Raya36]

I shot every night except the first I think and no luck

[Raya36]

Good job everyone

Okay why did MinVirgo hammer? While I appreciate being right they could have gotten away with not doing it I think lol

I was wondering this too.