Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Momrangal]

Mmmm... I might not be super sure about Max/VP pairing. Need to look more into harumi replacement

[VP Baltar]

Ok, now I'm going to get into some VC thoughts. This is mostly just a speculation word vomit post because I haven't really had time to think about this until I'm writing this post, but let's see if this goes anywhere.

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate someone.

ItalianoVD (7): Reformed Toxic Player, Datisi, RLotus, VP Baltar, midwaybear, maxwell, ItalianoVD <--EXECUTED
maxwell(1): Green Crayons
Green Crayons (1): Andresvmb
midwaybear (1): Dunnstral
Elements (1): Battle Mage
VP Baltar (1): Duchess
RLotus (1): Elements

So my first assumption here is that I'm reading Datisi correctly. I will obviously reassess if I need to there, but I really have not seen any serious indication he is scum. He could be pocketing me of course, but thoughts and lines of questions feel transparent and genuine.

So working from that assumption, that leaves me with: RLotus, midwaybear, maxwell as possible scum on that wagon.

That's actually a very small pool to shoot in and now my gut is saying that if I think one of those people is scum, yeeting there has the highest chance to hit scum.

Midwaybear

Midway's vote is pretty unremarkable.

VOTE: ItalianoVD
I'm subscribing to this wagon

And Dunn perhaps isn't entirely wrong that midway's move toward that wagon in post 1362 rings as slightly scummy.

Why is RLotus being wagoned? Looking at the votecount, I could vote GC, Italiano, and RLotus if people sell me on it.
I think RTP has been quite townie this game, and, again, I don't know if "oppurtunisitc" means scum VPB.

I never get a sense of why midway prefers Italiano or votes there. Going back to look through midway's ISO for mentions of Italiano...it's a lot of weak statements that don't come to a significant conclusion.

Midway, can you explain for me again why you chose to vote Italiano over GC or Lotus at the end of D1?

RLotus

I mean, look, lord knows I had my issues with Lotus yesterday. We can now definitively say his push on Italiano was not accurate, and to me it hedged into bad faith territory at times.

I can say definitively from my perspective that Lotus only stopped this argument to pick up a very bad faith fight with me.

I largely backed off this fight with Lotus yesterday because I felt like it was not being productive and I didn't want it to go into toxic land because I was getting mad about people actually agreeing with his case...which to me was just an indication they were not reading it.

Anyhow, I do think it is possibly worth people reconsidering Lotus in light of the Italiano flip. I think rereading that fight and seeing Lotus argue bad faith against town is notable.

maxwell

I didn't really have a read on Harumi before, and maxwell has felt just OK content-wise to me. My gut hasn't really been strongly pinged either way, though as I'm rereading their ISO, I get the sense that I've probably just been shelving them because on the surface, they are saying things I generally agree with (Dunn has scummy behavior, Datisi is town, etc.)

maxwell's own progression on Italiano mirrors my own as well. Early on after replacing in, he says this:

I'm not really sure why people were scumreading Italiano, his early play was a little awkward initially but I never felt there was a string case there. He made a few posts later that I liked.

Later, after maxwell says he can kind of see Datisi's point, he decides to change his vote under mild Datisi pressure and a looming deadline. That feels fairly natural to me.

I don't have strong conclusions here, but of the three on the wagon I listed above, I think maxwell comes across the least scummy in there progressions and interactions.

That being said, I definitely was not a fan of this post at the start of the day on a gut level.

That self hammer while being a neapolitan was kind of gross. Why not just claim?

Just absolutely unbelievable. I guess no one actually asked him to claim, but I would have assumed he'd have claimed if he was something important, not selfhammering as a goddamn neapolitan. Killed any desire to reread the game on my part.

VOTE: midwaybear

I don't think this is a bad vote but I'd also still do GC.

It's factually inaccurate that no one asked him to claim, and it's like a "well, I guess he deserved it!" post. Dunn's doing the same thing of course. It's probably not alignment indicative, but my gut says those types of slams upon the yeeted could be more likely from scum. IDK, I'm rambling.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, that's some on wagon analysis.

I will try to get to some off wagon looks later today. Apologies this is getting strung out. I've just had a lot of work come up recently (including yesterday afternoon when I meant to do this.)

[RLotus]

Mmmm... I might not be super sure about Max/VP pairing. Need to look more into harumi replacement

What do you mean by Max/VPB pairing?

[RLotus]

I mean, look, lord knows I had my issues with Lotus yesterday. We can now definitively say his push on Italiano was not accurate, and to me it hedged into bad faith territory at times.

My assessment of his play makes sense now that he flipped PR, at least to me. He was playing more cautiously/passively than he normally does as town and it is likely due to that fact.

[Momrangal]

if there somehow isn't scum in <RTP, GC, VB> mafia are having a field day

I wanna hear more about this elements

[VP Baltar]

He was playing more cautiously/passively than he normally does as town and it is likely due to that fact.

I don't disagree that PRs can certainly ping as scum, and I can't really speak to your personal experience playing with him.

My read on it is definitely colored by my own interaction with you, which I personally know was wrong as well. That's two giant pushes from you yesterday that were off base.

Maybe if I got a better sense where your head is at today, I might feel differently.

[VP Baltar]

I don't know if Italiano was necessarily playing cautiously given he self-hammered as a cop. but anyhow.

[Momrangal]

I scum read Harumi who max replaced. I just got to his posts on the thread, but recent developments make me question if its scum theatere

[RLotus]

I don't know if Italiano was necessarily playing cautiously given he self-hammered as a cop. but anyhow.

lol

[RLotus]

Andre is obvtown imo

I still don't see scum in VPB and Datisi after reconsidering. After reading a couple VPB games, it seems like he has a tendency to try to discredit people pushing on him as town. At first I thought it was scummy, but I think that is town behavior for him.

I still have this lingering gut paranoia about him regardless. Maybe he could be a deepwolf here? I dunno I guess I can't shake the feeling I got day 1. Anyway, he's in my townblock.

I'm still happy with Duchess/Cookie Monster town for Duchess' push on VPB.

It's curious that BM/Momrangel is seemingly getting a pass still from BM's entrance. Need more from momrangal to get a better idea of them.

Elements keeps doing this thing where when he is prompted to or is pushed on, he has a townish feeling series of posts and then promptly drifts back into null. Hard to read for me.

Basically I'm quite directionless atm. Dunn is a fine elim for that vote on midway which a couple others have mentioned.

[Momrangal]

VOTE: VPB

think I'll probably go here now. Partly because I feel ignored, partly because I don't like the pushes he's making so far.

I feel like a push on duchess is LHF, and I'm not entirely understanding his push on lotus around the 40s

[VP Baltar]

After reading a couple VPB games,

which games were those?

[Momrangal]

It may be matching his town meta, but I don't like the fact that he's attacking seemingly easier avenues. I also took notice that he had appealed to koba and didn't seem to take their advice in hand when given.

[Momrangal]

Also, considering I just repped a couple days ago, I don't think my activity is too terrible

[RLotus]

After reading a couple VPB games,

which games were those?

Mini Theme 2165, Open 802, Mini 2180

[RLotus]

Also, considering I just repped a couple days ago, I don't think my activity is too terrible

Yeah that's fine I just need more to make a stance on you

[VP Baltar]

he's attacking seemingly easier avenues

who are the hard avenues I should be attacking? How successful have these easy avenues been for me given their ease?

I'm not sure what you're referring to about RTP specifically.

[VP Baltar]

After reading a couple VPB games,

which games were those?

Mini Theme 2165, Open 802, Mini 2180

Probably a fair assessment in those mini themes. I don't like people when they make half baked cases against me as town. I'm a very fact oriented person, and I think people playing mafia are maybe less so. You're not wrong though that I'm biased toward seeing scum in those scenarios.

Open 802 was me just kicking ass though MAAAAN.

[VP Baltar]

Blah, I like that assessment from Lotus, like a lot.

[Momrangal]

I'm not sure but I recalled (and correctly) that you were one of the few who defended me on rep in. You also immediately tagged on the amished tell there and completely ignored it here. I get the sense that you could make a read of it, successfully did it there but isn't paying mind to it here.

I don't like your attacks on Dunn and duchess, and feel lukewarm on your read on lotus.

Regarding Koba, you appealed to them and asked them to help you out, in figuring out if you were simply tunneled here but I didn't see a response to their answer

[Momrangal]

I just have a very strong vibe of you going through the motions instead of putting actual thought behind your suspicions and pushes

[Momrangal]

TOP OF 51 PROGRESS IS BEING MADE

[Datisi]

i went to pour myself a glass of apple juice before sitting down at my laptop, but after i did that, i realized the juice got spoiled

i am now very sad and will have to do this apple-juice-less

His vote on me is fine for the reasons he gave, but it is more of an interpretation thing that I don't want to get in an argument about. I hope he will see that I am town soon enough.

i wasn't arguing as if the "lol why am i still top wagon" is the crux of my dunn case anyway.

i am not actually sure what the above quote means? like yeah it's an interpretation thing and you agreed w me, no?

What is the crux of your case, exactly? As far as I can tell, it's that Dunn didn't vote Italiano and made a useless vote on midwaybear near the end of the day. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't really townread Dunn, but that's not...especially convincing?

that's... overly simplified.

- dunn had a bad case of lurk day one
- kept ignoring questions thrown his way
- had a post around mid day one where it seemed like he's town on italiano, but made absolutely no attempts of genuinely convincing anyone
- lurking up to deadline (i believe he got prodded around that time? not sure)
- once italiano wagon was basically a guarantee (i.e. he was literally implying he was going to hamer himself), popped in with a kinda weak midway vote
- the above looks bad when you notice that italiano flipped town, because it implies that dunn presented a townread, didn't try convincing anyone on it, and once it was guaranteed the wagon was going through, he voted somewhere else, in a very "scum staying off misyeet wagon for townpoints" fashion
- returns day two with like barely any reads, isn't showing much will to live, and is seriously questioning why he's top wagon
- also i really dislike his baltar shade(?)

like is this 100% slam dunk scumcase? no, i can see a few universes out there where this flips town. but like. individually, it's the best i got right now.

[Datisi]

k since yall prob gonna try to hammer this while im at work - ill just out my theory now ~ i will ellaborate on this tomorrow if im alive but if somehow italiano flips town, im looking at a crackpot theory of andres, maxwell, GC.


but the way italiano formed their reads list suggests they arent flipping town so im not too pressed about it, i just would rather do this in case im nightkilled and all.

This may not be entirely crackpot.

at which cracks in this pot are you looking at here?

(does that even make sense? you know what i mean)