Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Andresvmb]

If my memory serves me right, 2797 are all positions I took against Town players. Ranny was Town. So was DGB. Norwegianboy was SK but Town siding, and NPOM was Town and replaced out. Look at my push against Titus that very game. And then tell me I can’t succumb to tunneling.

[Momrangal]

Now, from looking back, Norwegian *could* be viewed similar to how I’m describing Luca here. They have also been really insistent about their Towniness, and were blocked in a Night where there was only 1 execution if I remember correctly.

I just don’t see why a Serial Killer would bring up the fact that there could be a third party in the game before it was obvious. I just don’t think a Serial Killer would do that. There’s no reason to provide the Scum, who can shoot at you, with the knowledge that they need to be on the lookout for a Serial Killer. Because I would be looking for something different if I thought there was a Town Vig versus a Serial Killer. At least I don’t think they present themselves as the same.

But I mean, this is honestly a crap shoot. I think I have a sense for how to find Scum, or what to be on the lookout for. Serial Killer? Not really. I’ve played Serial Killer once before (and won), but it was different than what I think we’ll find here. I had specific character targets, one of which was Scum, and I was forced to Town side to find that last target (so I was quite vocal about trying to help the Town find Scum). Given the fact that the Serial Killer has to be the last person standing to win, I just don’t think I would be at the forefront of trying to find Scum, but I would maybe be aggressive about defending myself.

That’s all I have. I wish this would have been a game with 5 Scum and not this. And that’s clearly not what we have.

I'm not sure whether ya'll thinking I could actually be an SK in this game is a compliment or insult lmfao

In reality, anyone can be an SK. That’s the part that’s annoying about it. Because they’re typically uninformed, and their main objective is to live until the end.

Now, you claimed Miller correct? And then disavowed it? And also softed PR? Yeah, not truly what I would expect from someone that needs to survive until the end.

You know, if I had to guess, I would say the SK is Norwegian. I think that I’m being set up to vote Luca. And Luca is never voting Norwegian over me.

But it should be obvious I think from the choice of NK that it’s not me. It’s a bad way to argue this actually and I know that, and I’m not going to go far with this because of the amount of WIFOM that is associated with this type of argument (so I personally discard it most of the time at this juncture, though note that this isn’t to find the last Scum), but if I were SK, I NK Norwegian there 100% of the time. I would have left myself super flexible to argue whatever I wanted at the end and forced a vote between Luca and BBMolla. Because that one I can win easily I think. Here I’m stuck arguing it’s Luca, and hoping Norwegian doesn’t turn against me for some reason.

Norwegian on the other hand has seen me easily discard the argument against them, and sound almost convinced it’s Luca. So it’s an easy decision from their perspective - here I’m handcuffed into a set position, and if I’m tunneled enough it’s an easy victory.

In fact, I don’t think Luca makes that NK. And that’s the part that is just so dangerous about this. Like why leave me alive? If I’m Luca, I would have shot me 100% of the time. I just made a strong argument against them, and if I want to win, I easily eliminate the guy that sounds least open to reconsidering.

But that’s again all WIFOM. You could argue oh but that’s exactly what Luca wants you to think blah blah blah until the end of time. So this isn’t going to convince anybody really. I guess it boils down to the tools that the SK had to live until this moment. Because the existence of the Role Cop was obvious. So if they had the tools to avoid that making them a target for the Scum, it’s not that hard to be super aggressive and try and help Town during the day. I’m just still confused as to the ease with which they were able to brush off the pressure of near death, but they did do this slightly manipulative thing where they simply assumed I would get it right. And I mean I wasn’t going to screw that vote up I don’t think (Vax v. Norwegian).

I also think there was some pressure from Norwegian to get it done yesterday in order to lock it in, whereas everybody else was willing to vote for a No Kill. Which actually plays a role in my thinking too. Luca gave up a potential victory yesterday to have it narrowed down today. I could have voted BBMolla yesterday given what I said publicly and that would have guaranteed Luca a victory. But they passed that up. Why? It doesn’t make sense as a 3p move.

These are all posts from the tail end of the game. Even at this point he didn't go anywhere near as hard on anyone and even when he realized that Norwee was the SK there he didn't mindlessly tunnel and had some insight to what going on. At every stage of that game he was willing to pull back and re-evaluate what was happening and how he could have gotten into the situation he was in and all I see here is "go go go go go"

Pedit: ok that is fair I do remember you railing Titus hard but I don't recall you letting it muddy up your perspective of the game

[Andresvmb]

You're blowing my vote out of proportion. I feel like everything is being blown out of proportion when it comes to you.

How am I blowing your vote out of proportion? You carelessly hammered Town, cut-off arguments that began developing against your slot, and then today are claiming that you didn’t know it was a hammer. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. But it’s really hard to do when literally two posts before your vote there was a vote count. And you were asking about the deadline and how we shouldn’t recklessly end the day.

[Andresvmb]

Pedit: ok that is fair I do remember you railing Titus hard but I don't recall you letting it muddy up your perspective of the game

This feels like moving the goal post. So I can indeed get into aggressive pushes as Town. We’ve established that.

In that Large Normal, I also felt like we were swimming against the tide a little bit. But in some ways it was different. I did actually think that game was a little easier to make sense of. This game is brutal. Because almost any way I look at it, there’s at least 1 Town player that is horribly pocketed. It’s either me with RLotus, or VPB with Datisi (or possibly vice versa but I’m thinking that’s less likely), or you with Datisi (but I actually think you make a lot of sense as Partners), or Green Crayons with Datisi (since they added them to their Neighborhood first as the paragon of Town). That is what I’m constantly feeling irritated by. That to win this game, we have to break someone out of a trance. And it could be me! It’s such an uneasy feeling.

[Momrangal]

I wrote up a post, went to tend to my child and posted it and the pedits didn't show up?

I mean... I cant prove what I thought but I was asked to vote, datisi was asking people to vote.

VPB had to repost his question twice before I answered it, datisi had to quote and requote questions for me to answer it. It's pretty obvious that my game state awareness is still pretty shot and I'm trying (and struggling) to get to a current perspective

[DrippingGoofball]

VOTE: VPB

[VP Baltar]

Ok, my first priority today is digging into the Lotus v. Datisi dynamic and figuring out my own thoughts. This might be a series of posts as I'm going here, since I'm doing this while at work and my attention may get pulled away.

I want to start with this post:

Furthermore, VPB and Datisi are the constants on the two miselims, so it should be pretty clear why that's where we should look.

Also, I've stated this several times, but the relationship between VPB and Datisi has been strange. It doesn't seem natural that they wouldn't once waver on town reading each other or have even the slighest suspicion. I really think at least one of them has knowledge of the other's alignment.

And that's just to say that I understand being thrown by our dynamic, but I think there are a couple things to consider, at least from my point of view. I view Datisi's and my playstyle as actually somewhat similar as town. I think we both tend to try to form town blocs and then make those bonds unbreakable. When that works, it's basically a guaranteed winning technique as town because the scum eventually get PoE'd hard.

I think from the outside that seems unnatural. I've been on the outside of it as town and it is a weird dynamic. That being said, it can happen and people don't necessarily have inside knowledge of alignment. It's about trust and coalition building. Datisi and I did it recently in Jungle Oligarchy to some success. Unfortunately in that game, scum killed him as soon as we started to lock in.

The downside of this technique is if you lock in with a scum, you really fuck up the game.

[Datisi]

"It's not scummy that's just my playstyle." Ok.

m8 have you looked in the mirror? you've been screaming that italiano was scum on day 1, and midway was very much within your poe. also i'm questioning my read on baltar. and he keeps getting out town. he's putting in effort, his reactions seem natural and the way he played in the last game we were in, the way he was pushing the game yesterday to keep producing content is townie. idgaf about where he was on or off wagon if his thoughts are coming from a genuine place. like why should i be buying the pocketing stories here exactly? also my dude, your reasoning is like. bad. and you're very much not obvtown.

You're just wrong about this. You are blatantly scum so whatever

yes. that's literally my playstyle. "oh you're sheepy" "oh you ask questions" i've heard it before.

what am i just wrong about there?

Like Datisi, if you are town and you genuinely think VPB is town, you have to realize that you two are a big force in constantly pushing the game in the wrong direction. You should be looking at the people playing along with the two of you. Not me, who has been actively resisting your pushes. I hard defended RTP, Duchess, vocally opposed midway. The position you are taking is bad. Like, seriously?

This is why I just can not believe you have a solving mindset atm.

i love how the fact you were a huge proponent of scum!italiano on day 1 is left out here. also, saying that i'm not looking at those players is false. i'm trying to interact with them and get stuff out of them. just because my vote is currently on you and i'm forced to reply to the shit you're throwing at me doesn't mean you're the only person i'm looking at? and framing it so is like, not very correct?

[VP Baltar]

ooookay 2599 is a burning pile of trash and here is why:

- that is how i play. that is literally how i play. i probe and ask questions. sometimes those questions don't go anywhere because the responses don't strike my gut either way. and that's fine, i've gotten suspected over that shit before. but here's the thing: why hasn't lotus done some meta research on me to see that? he was suspecting baltar, then he ~did some meta~, figured his behaviour lines up with his town!meta, ok nvm. so why isn't he doing it here?

My take on this point: I agree with Datisi that this is just how he plays. When you ask a lot of questions, sometimes things don't go anywhere, or the only become relevant later when you get some flips or night info.

I don't really have a problem with that. I do that. I get accused similarly as town all the time.

Now, have Datisi's questions been especially directionless as Lotus says? IDK. I'd probably have to do a closer review of this game. I'm slightly more concerned Datisi hasn't questioned me more actually. I vaguely recall saying something to that effect on D1. It may be that Datisi is just getting better at town reading me now. I did expect more pressure from him this game, and that pings me. But I don't have the same general conclusions as Lotus because I generally felt like there were times in the game where Datisi was asking questions I was going to ask.

Regarding Datisi's point as to why Lotus didn't meta him. I don't find that super scummy either. Meta is a lot of work. I hate having to do it. Lotus might just be not into it. Yes, he did meta me, but that was far later after he attacked me.

[Datisi]

- i mean you're not gonna convince me my own reasoning was weak but my question was why didn't you call it out yesterday if it's so obviously scummy?

Datisi no offense but, I called out your reasoning as weak and pushed you on it multiple times yesterday, and you said “fuck preflip” basically and didn’t relent. No amount of arguing with you would have swayed you, in my experience.

you're missing the point. it's not about whether or not his callout would've swayed me (and i admit it probably wouldn't have), it's about the fact that he didn't do it. he's arguing now that my reasoning is airy and it's obviously scummy. but if it's so obviously scummy, where were you yesterday when i was making those points and pushing midway?

what i was *actually* saying there that i was getting vague feelings you/andre might be partnered because this feels very much coordinated and if it you manage to convince the town there's 1 scum in two of us, and we're both town, it's game winning for you (tbf that's probably not what's going on, esp as andres is voting mom but it crossed my mind)

This is bullshit though. You’re turning the argument RLotus and I actually agree on, and pushing it against us, when fundamentally, we’ve been on a lot of opposite sides of various arguments and you’ve been on the wrong one of them all. You can’t suggest two players are coordinated and Scum because they’ve agreed on a lot of things, and omit the fact that what they’ve been agreeing on is that a lot of the Town executions and flips that have occurred have been of Town. I understand White Knighting is a thing obviously, but just objectively any third party observer would tell you that there’s a much higher chance that one of {You, VPB} is Scum than in {Me, RLotus}. Do I think RLotus is absolutely assured of being Town? No, I don’t. But I’m Town. And I think it’s obvious honestly. And I have the same suspicions RLotus is describing. So I can see the Towny mindset, because it’s exactly mine.

look at it from my perspective. i'm town, and i think baltar is town. scum needs two more misexecutes to win. you've been arguing that there's likely scum in me/vpb, ok fine, you think it's baltar, you've explained your stance there. but all of a sudden, lotus, who was continuously townreading both of us, jumps out screaming how there's scum between the two of us too, and how it's me. do you not see why that dynamic made me raise an eyebrow?

[VP Baltar]

- "For example, when he was following VPB's votes onto Dunn and then to RTP, even though Datisi kept reitirating that he thought Italiano is scum." you know why i was doing that? (1) because people didn't seem that interested in italiano. i'm not a fool to keep my vote parked in places where i know it's not gonna go anywhere. (2) pressure is used to sort people. votes apply pressure. like i don't have to constantly have my vote on my strongest scumread, especially coupled with (1).

Datisi's response here is consistent with his votes. On RTP, he tranparently says he's sheeping me and adds "let's see what happens." That's clearly a pressure vote.

The Dunn vote is less clear since it just says "yeet". I did point out shortly before that the game momentum was really dropping off. That's harder to see when you are looking in hindsight, but I distinctly remember feeling like everyone was just giving up on the game and letting scum just fuck off.

[VP Baltar]

also i love how in 2604 lotus is saying how baltar and i are constants on the two misyeets and therefore it's "pretty clear" we should be looked at when he was on italiano d1 and kept putting midway in his scumpool but gave some p weak reasoning to not jump onto him

This is a legitimate criticism of you Lotus. I think you're a little rose-colored glasses on your play around those folks, particularly Italiano.

[Datisi]

again, that is literally. how i play town. build a blocc, work with it. also i never voted for cookie monster?

I’ll also make this general point.

Voting isn’t the only way of influencing the game. If Scum was just going around voting everybody who was Town and avoiding their Partners, they would make it too easy for the Town. So nobody does that. I really find this to be obnoxious and an easy way to avoid accountability. You greatly attacked Cookie Monster’s claim, did you not? You can at least be upfront about that.

i did. i don't instantly trust power role claims from scummy slots, sue me.

but you're not looking at the bigger picture here. i never voted cookie, and i instantly said not to actually verify her claim / push her when it came up and agreed to give her a day or so. like attacking the doctor in hindsight doesn't look good, obviously. but why the fuck does scum!me do it? to point attention at myself and how much i think the claim is bad, only to then... nightkill her anyway? so i could make this wifom argument? that's why i'm saying, your "attacking the claim" point is level zero thinking.

I think I want an attempt at a solve from Datisi and VPB. A ranking, something. Something I can use to better understand what sort of universe you’re seeing.

sure. would need to reflect on the game, maybe refresh/check some meta stuff. will try to get it out tonight before going to bed.

[Datisi]

- "For example, when he was following VPB's votes onto Dunn and then to RTP, even though Datisi kept reitirating that he thought Italiano is scum." you know why i was doing that? (1) because people didn't seem that interested in italiano. i'm not a fool to keep my vote parked in places where i know it's not gonna go anywhere. (2) pressure is used to sort people. votes apply pressure. like i don't have to constantly have my vote on my strongest scumread, especially coupled with (1).

Datisi's response here is consistent with his votes. On RTP, he tranparently says he's sheeping me and adds "let's see what happens." That's clearly a pressure vote.

The Dunn vote is less clear since it just says "yeet". I did point out shortly before that the game momentum was really dropping off. That's harder to see when you are looking in hindsight, but I distinctly remember feeling like everyone was just giving up on the game and letting scum just fuck off.

just wanna point out that my dunn vote was indeed kind of a response to 612. the difference was that rtp actually had some physical points against them, while dunn was like... just not there and not engaging. also thought it would be obvious considering my vote came right after your comment.

[VP Baltar]

The difference being when you are scum you do the thing where you hook people into answering your questions, while as town I didn't ever see you do that in the few games I looked at.

can you explain to me the difference you saw in Datisi's scum games? I don't quite know what you me by "hook people"

[VP Baltar]

Datisi, why are you confident there were many town on the Italiano wagon?

[VP Baltar]

wow you got 2 scum GC

Slight detour. Does this strike you as weird from your perspective Lotus?

I know we talked about this a bit already, but what are the odds that GC would neighborize two people who you find very scummy? I will say that I find the momrangal choice weird from both Datisi and then GC on the follow up.

I don't think Andres was the OBVIOUS ONLY CHOICE or anything silly like that, but he certainly could have been a better neighborize than momrangal or DGB if the goal, as I believe it was stated, was to make a soft masons 'hood.

[VP Baltar]

trash vote, I s2g I get OMGUSd everytime I push on someone. Italiano, VPB, andre, Datisi. Yep, every time.

lol

I do think you are perhaps a little bad faith in how you read people. But hey, we're all learning about each others' playstyles here.

[Datisi]

is there like, anything that you're finding actually scummy about my play or is it just ~*paranoia*~? what do you think about lotus' case?

Datisi, however, thinks it’s just paranoia but we should continue listening to them because, well, we’re SR’ing their play style and not really their content or something. C’mon now, this is absurd. You’re defending Momrangal who btw went from a SR to screaming Scum to me, and you seem to think that any potential suspicion thrown your way is just Town game throwing or Scum playing tricks. How can you at least not admit some responsibility for the shit situation we’re in right now? I definitely felt you were particularly obstinate yesterday about midway, in a rather nonsensical way. You basically suggested that a rather marginal case you had experienced in a different game applied here, instead of ignoring possibilities and focusing on what was most likely. And you know, at the very core, this is what Scum do. They throw out possibilities to distract and confuse, and stop focusing on the most likely.

that was @baltar, not @the table. i'm not saying it's "just paranoia", like i'm not stupid i see my pushes have flipped town and why that would be suspicious. but i wanted his take on it. and lotus' attack on me is based a lot around my playstyle, and he's conveninetly igonring the points in the game where he was pushing town. i'm not applying the same argument to you. sorry, where am i defending momrangal? also i thought midway was scum. i don't care for preflip at that stage of the game because i cannot read it. also which case are you talking about here? bc the main "case" from that game was an all-town day 1 misyeet, which, midway was on d1 wagon.

[VP Baltar]

Why why why is this scummy? You think we should ignore the people on both Italiano's and midway's wagon? The fact that you aren't the least bit suspicious of VPB STILL is shocking. This is the natural place to look, this is not a scummy push.

I do agree with this criticism. I don't think it's scummy to be very suspicious of myself and Datisi today. I would be if I was on the otherside.

I don't think it's guaranteed one of us is scum, but it's a reasonable take objectively.

[Datisi]

Datisi, why are you confident there were many town on the Italiano wagon?

i'm not confident on it anymore because this game is giving me a headache but i believe it was the way the wagon formed. dead gamestate, at some point it became obvious the wagon was gonna flip. i think scum won't bloody their hands if they don't have to, esp if they have a loud idiot doing their job for them.

[RLotus]

also i love how in 2604 lotus is saying how baltar and i are constants on the two misyeets and therefore it's "pretty clear" we should be looked at when he was on italiano d1 and kept putting midway in his scumpool but gave some p weak reasoning to not jump onto him

This is a legitimate criticism of you Lotus. I think you're a little rose-colored glasses on your play around those folks, particularly Italiano.

Sure, with Italiano that is fair, I was wrong on him day 1, and I was on the wrong side of that argument. With midway he was in my limpool sure. I wasn't out here advocating for him to be killed like I had with Italiano and day 2 when he had momentum against him I vocally advocated that midway is probably town. I was on the wrong side of one town wagon and opposed to every other one.

Compare that to yourself and Datisi who were driving forces in

every single town wagon

. Yes, it is very clear you two should be looked at. It boggles my mind that Datisi isn't seeing this.

[RLotus]

In post 2746, RLotus wrote:
Like Datisi, if you are town and you genuinely think VPB is town, you have to realize that you two are a big force in constantly pushing the game in the wrong direction. You should be looking at the people playing along with the two of you. Not me, who has been actively resisting your pushes. I hard defended RTP, Duchess, vocally opposed midway. The position you are taking is bad. Like, seriously?

This is why I just can not believe you have a solving mindset atm.

i love how the fact you were a huge proponent of scum!italiano on day 1 is left out here. also, saying that i'm not looking at those players is false. i'm trying to interact with them and get stuff out of them. just because my vote is currently on you and i'm forced to reply to the shit you're throwing at me doesn't mean you're the only person i'm looking at? and framing it so is like, not very correct?

still think baltar is town. this still feels like his town!meta.
green also feels like town, plus the fact cookie died makes me think he's less likely to be scum.
momrangal is probably town, however i've heard that battle mage's scumgame is actually Not Shit, so should probably look at that to see if his entrance really was out of his scumrange.
andres' entrance today feels really genuine and i feel like he's far too tunnelled. but also getting some vague paranoia he and lotus are coming out today each pushing one of me/baltar.
dgb needs to contribute more, and i've talked about its voting patterns yesterday.
not liking maxwell's unvote from midway for reasons that were ??? to me.
dunnstral has some q's to answer from yesterday, still feel like he could easily be scum.

I don't see much difference from your opinions yesterday. Where have you re evaluated?

[RLotus]

wow you got 2 scum GC

Slight detour. Does this strike you as weird from your perspective Lotus?

I know we talked about this a bit already, but what are the odds that GC would neighborize two people who you find very scummy? I will say that I find the momrangal choice weird from both Datisi and then GC on the follow up.

I don't think Andres was the OBVIOUS ONLY CHOICE or anything silly like that, but he certainly could have been a better neighborize than momrangal or DGB if the goal, as I believe it was stated, was to make a soft masons 'hood.

Datisi was a fine choice. I myself thought Datisi was very towny at that point.

Momrangal was a bad choice, but after he clarified that Datisi gave him that selection of you, Momrangal, and DGB, I don't think it was a bad choice.

[VP Baltar]

Ok. Lotus and Datisi kind of have an iterative argument after that.

I think the strongest points against Datisi are:

1) A lack of suspicion of me
2) The move away from Dunn and toward midway after I shifted D2.

On point 1, it is very hard for me to say whether this is truly scummy or not. I know I'm town. I think I'm being pretty transparent in a way that I'm basically incapable of doing as scum. Datisi has played with me as both alignments a reasonable number of times. I am biased and don't think I'm hard to read. So is Datisi just good at reading me or is he pocketing me? I really don't have a clue. I'd like to believe the former.

On point 2, I can see the scum motivation here. It would be one thing if Datisi just came out and said he was sheeping me. That's pretty transparent and, honestly, something scum tend to avoid doing despite it being an easy tactic. Instead, Datisi gave reasons for those two shifts. Lotus' position is that those reasons were flimsy. I can see that. This point alone is probably not enough for me to outweigh the many times in this game that I have gotten good town vibes from Datisi.

So, my conclusion is that I can see something of a case on Datisi, but I am not at all confident he is scum. My gut is still saying town there. I don't love the OMGUS on Lotus, but I also think Lotus is overstating his case. I felt the same when Lotus was pushing on me.


Speaking of which, Lotus, can I ask you how you feel you've played this game? Like I"m thinking about all the people you say have OMGUSed you, and by your own measures, only one of those people are scum. That feels like a lot of hard pushing on town players. You've agreed with andres that I'm fucking up because of bad pushes (which I don't disagree with), but your own pushes have been bad too, right? What makes you so confident this time?


pedit:

Compare that to yourself and Datisi who were driving forces in every single town wagon.

I don't think it's fair to say I was a driving force on Italiano. I helped rally people in a dead game on a deadline to yeet SOMEONE on D1. I was never super confident in an Italiano scum flip, but a flip is way better than a no yeet D1, even if you're incorrect.