Newbie 2062: The Hubble Telescope - End!

[RationalMadman]

the way they entered the game. Scum is statistically more likely to enter the game first, and the first post they made reads to me as scum.

Obviously I get it, it's sarcasm and random voting is happening with nonsense reasoning to gauge reactions.

However, there is something off about hiw far you went with this post to make that clear/obvious.

The part I have quoted on its own would have perhaos baited a newbie player to make a scummy or towny response. The rest you added on broadcasted the sarcasm a lnd melodramatism of the post, ruining what the reactions would reveal. It basically feels like overly acting scum to me.

Obviously I get it, it was intended to be blatant sarcasm regardless from your viewpoint but there's something I don't like about the general tone of the rest of it. It feels like 'haha, I'm just posting nonsense' whereas the part I quoted would have potentially been a far better tone to a naive newbie reader, to see how they attack it.

[RationalMadman]

I rarely vote fast unless I think the vote will genuinely be worth the reaction it gets, so I'm not gonna vote Andante as there's already one on her. However, my read is serious, I scumread her as a gut read from that intro post.

[RationalMadman]

Sorry for the typos btw, I type clumsy on a phone. I'll get to a computer later.

[RationalMadman]

Also to add to that, if Rational flips scum, we need to have a look at Orc because of that response taking into consideration that they're a newbie, I am not expanding on that as I don't like giving heavy logic around an associative read prior to them flipping to prove that case.

If I am town why is Orc less likely to be scun than if I am scum, considering the reaction to me?

[RationalMadman]

Since there are no votes on Andante at all, now I will vote. Also, I townread Ivyeo very much for her third response to things being designed to push for new avenues of debate as well as keep old ones going. I also townread that her ibitial reaction matched the vibe of Andante despite Andante voting her, it shows that she was feeling friendly towards Andante despite having every reason to quietly hide resentment, she actually pushes further on the scummy read on her, laughing with the joke that she's scum. The fact she found amusement in it is a subconscious sign she knows she's town in her mind and finds it amusing the reasoning Andante used. This is a very towny way to approach the early DP1, including that she also defends my attack without defending the logic itself. This is even supporting that she found it amusing how Andante put so much effort into justifying a joke reason.

VOTE: Andante

Also, JacksonVirgo is town for the logic and effort put in. To that post where they change their vote.

[RationalMadman]

Town

Ivyeo
JacksonVirgo

Scum

Andante

Others all null.

T3 supporting me is easily to soften me up and/or to frame me if T3 flips scum later.

I very slightly townread Orctin's reaction to Andante asking why I scumread. However, Orctin not voting me despite saying that and not directly attacking me with logic or questions doesn't make sense, could be forced content.

[RationalMadman]

T3 may be town, on balance, because of how actively he defended Ivy agaibst Demainer wheb he noticed she was 2/5 and Demainer's response to T3 was worth scum reading somewhat.

[RationalMadman]

mafia joke about being mafia

How often? Usually town do, especially when it's a quick reply to someone random voting them on nonsense reasoning.

[RationalMadman]

Why would there be any issue in having two votes on Andante, and if you think they are scum why are you actively *not* wanting to wagon them? Also you explained the Ivyeo town-read but then didn't explain the reason you TR me for my logic, could you please do that

If I vote two votes this early on someone, it has very bad consequences if even one other person decides to go for it. Regardless of me being right or wrong, it's a much better position in early D1 bandwagons to either lead hard on a hard read or be positioned on someone you're ready to unvote in an emergency, to test others (that is why everyone positions on different people with random votes).

There is no use of me tunneling Andante that hard and fast based solely on the reaction to me and the first post. Obviously it's a soft scumread, not a gard one.

Tbe effort you put into your first post would simply be overall a waste of effort if you're scum in a newbie game. You attacked, defended, analysed in ways that showed analysis of a deep kind and also probed questions and replied from others. Even now, you are trying to spot flaws in thinking in me despite me townreading you. This all balances as town or extremely overplaying scum.

Overplaying scum is fine, however it's not likely you'd try this hard just for the first few posts you make in a newbie game unless you really wanted slips and reads to occur.

[RationalMadman]

This, and her first post. Town has nothing to hide, nothing to fear, why add an unnecessary /s to make sure no one misinterprets the post?

You're not the first person who has said this. This applies even to real life privacy vs surveillance issues.

The mentality is wrong. If you are innocent, you still should fear appearing guilty, especially in a gane like mafia. Going "I'm innocent haha if you got an issue vote me and find out bitches!" Is not really appropriate for town to have.

Imagine the most skilled player of mafia possible, are they equally careful to towntell as either alignment or only careful as scum?

The answer is equal.

[RationalMadman]

That long post from Orctin has to be the most nonsensical post I've ever seen someone justify a vote on.

Orctin just said that scum don't draw attention to themselves, I've actively done so.

Now I have two or is it three votes against me. Why is Orctin trying to force a claim from me this soon and then putting a disclaimer afterwards saying everyone is voting without reasoning?

[RationalMadman]

Does T3 quoting Rahte's vote on me count as a vote?

[RationalMadman]

That's a genuine question @mod

[RationalMadman]

In post 25, RationalMadman wrote:
T3 supporting me is easily to soften me up and/or to frame me if T3 flips scum later.

In post 26, RationalMadman wrote:
T3 may be town, on balance, because of how actively he defended Ivy agaibst Demainer wheb he noticed she was 2/5 and Demainer's response to T3 was worth scum reading somewhat.

Do you have a preference between labelling him town/mafia here? You seem conflicted.

I am very undecided on T3 even at this exact stage. T3 is contributing but seems to be trying to create clear signals of alliance to me and I'm not certain why, I don't scumread him, he may be a rapid reader OR is saying those reads to gauge further from reactions to those reads.

[RationalMadman]

I will like to update some things.


I have now begun to understand more about the game from interactions, somehow it's been revolving primarily around me but that's not a factor in my reads.

New townreads are: Rathe and Clasko.

New scumread is Orctin.

Read on Andante remains scumsided.

Read on JV still strong town.

Read on Ivyeo still soft town.

Read on all other players null.

[RationalMadman]

I really will like Orctin to engage me further onnthe reasoning of that post he made.

[RationalMadman]

Like i said - i was still just on page 1

Your basically pushing extremely hard to try to make yourself look like a good townie trying to solve the whole dame on day 1 with little to nothing to back up that information your trying to deduce. Perhaps this who you are - i refer to that as people chasing rabbit holes, and your neck deep in them already

And agree with T3, he's bandwagonning basically at this point

Who is basically bandwagoning?

You are basically vandwagoning on me based on the idea that I'm overcompensating to towntell. The fact I am contributing high volume is what has made you hedge your bets that I am scummier than everyone else in the cast other than you?

There are seven players excluding you and I.

[RationalMadman]

Andante outed a mason-team read on T3 and I btw. So I have no reason at all to unvote Andante. I fully scumread.

[RationalMadman]

I am tunneling you partially but I wouldn't say I didn't notice or speak about T3 buddying me.

[RationalMadman]

As opposed to a train of inactivity or fluffposts?

[RationalMadman]

I feel like Andante did something of a subconscious slip. Andante says RM and I are masons, but why not scumpartners (from a town POV)?

That's not why it's scummy. It is indeed scummy because why THE FUCK would town out a mason-team read on day 1 in this setup?

[RationalMadman]

So either T3 and me are both scum or both masons? Ever consider I didn't buddy him, he buddied me?

[RationalMadman]

T3 is just as easily town as scum. I would like T3 to justify his reads, the reasoning is important as he has outed an entire series of actual reads (in his post where he says I'm strong TR, Rathe is soft etc)

[RationalMadman]

Orctin, what reads or questions do you have outside of T3 and myself? T3 is fine but my question is outside of your tunneled gameread based on everything surrounding me, what reads or questions have you got on/for others?

[RationalMadman]

Ivyeo contributing more will also help.

[RationalMadman]

Demainer the OP says you haven't confirmed your role as you are un-bolded on the player list. I'm aware you've posted, just letting you know.

[RationalMadman]

@mod see above

[RationalMadman]

New townreads are: Rathe and Clasko.

New scumread is Orctin.

Read on Andante remains scumsided.

Read on JV still strong town.

Read on Ivyeo still soft town.

Read on all other players null.

Update: townread on Ivyeo rendered nullified by total lack oof worthwhile contribution since.

Nullread on Demainer pushed towards towny because of how Demainer is getting more agitated as the day is getting more chaotic (chaos pleases scum).

Scumread on Andante still there but I'm aware that Andante is trying, regardless of alignment and it appears based on comments here that Andante consistently doesn't project towny early on in games. So, Andante still scum but weaker scumread overall from me. The questions being asked by Andante could be what scum asks to feign content however it also could be genuine. For instance, the issues Andante has with Cleo could be real as town, though it was simply quoting and attacking.

Cleo... Somewhat unreadable because all that is coming out is "I kinda read" type posts. That said, town easily has no strong reads this soon if they are people who prefer concrete basis of reads.

[RationalMadman]

I said Cleo I meant Clasko, brain fart sorry

[RationalMadman]

I will not unvote Andante at this point. There is high effort put in but there is something really 'appeal to emotion' as opposed to 'appeal to logic' about andante's approach. So, I will not unvote, I'm willing to push through to force a claim. I'm aware I said 2/5 is worrying before but the reaction of Andante here feels like scum trying to strongly imply 'don't you dare vote me'. This also strikes me as odd as in an earlier post, Andante specifically reolied to me saying that as town, she doesn't give a damn whwn being BW'd on but basically says 'fuck you' to those voting her. I am very inclined to scumread Andante at this point, there is a very high stress level to being voted that simply doesn't make sense to me.

The push on T3 could definitely be what Town Andante would do. I even buy the reasoning, however I don't quite grasp why Andante's hostility to people seems solely based on how likely they are to vote her.

[RationalMadman]

I do jot townread Orctin at all, to be clear.

[RationalMadman]

I would even prefer an Orctin elimination by far. Nit because he is voting me byt because of how ridiculous and shallwo the reasoning why has been for any of his reads and actions (including the vote on me).

[RationalMadman]

So unless Orctin is a viable vote, I will stick to Andante if today is Andante vs T3. T3's claim of reaction testing me seems genuine, more genuine than id he'd justified the hard TR on me without saying it was a bait for me.

[RationalMadman]

Pressure isn't meant to be fun, it's meant to force reads and tells from the tubneleed player and bystanders.

Your reactions have been nulltelling at the start, you could be angry town for sure. I would prefer voting Orctin to you, if you are willing to vote him.

I am inclined to not vote anyone else over you because yoyr anger seems proportional to how much players are coming at you, which is not a way most players who are town react. Sone town olayers do act this way but they're detrimental to the Town as that means anyone who buddies them automatically gets townread by them.

[RationalMadman]

Andante, how do you read Orctin and Rathe, please be precise as possible.

[RationalMadman]

Why not? Isn't that how you'll defeat me if I am scum and you are town? If I am town and you are town, isn't it also how you'd win me over?

[RationalMadman]

Well I will stay on yoyr bandwagon then. I do want T3 to kustify his scumread on you more.

Out of curiosity what ahout T3's meta is it that you say is so scummy vs his previous games?

[RationalMadman]

Justify*

[RationalMadman]

I have taken a lot at T3's games (most are ongoing so I won't say any details). I can't truly ascertain meta from any, I don't think it obeys rules if I specify why but the reason is rather blatant.

Let me put it this way, meta can only be developed when you've seen the behaviour of a player you can 100% match to their flipped alignment and role (especit alignment). The data required to conclude this is... Insufficient as of this post.

[RationalMadman]

Look at, not lot at*

[RationalMadman]

Especially* alignment

[RationalMadman]

T3 ought to convince us of voting Andante though, much more than he already has. At the moment, T3 scumreads Andante based on some quotes but little explanation has gone into why.

[RationalMadman]

Spoiler:

Honestly Day 1 is always a Crapshoot - and odds are against town with any day 1 vote cause it's just to easy to basically have 2 townies facing off against each other which i am starting to wonder if that's what is happening with Rational and Andante. At which case then need to think about who's really egging the two sides on - there's your scummie

I would need to read back to look that way at the last few pages, as busy at work so do it later, but i would suspect your best scum target isn't one of them, but someone on the side wanting to keep attention there.

Vote: NoVote

Well, that would definitely be you, yoyr entire reading system and vote on me was based on this rivalry too.

[RationalMadman]

You unvote by saying Unvote, not saying vote novote

[RationalMadman]

I think the team could legitimately/plausibly be Orctin and Andante. This also explains why Orctin joins the BW on me yet Andante lays off voting me despite being very angry. It's so that voting patterns don't come back to bite.

Of course, there is some confirmation bias involved in me seeieng this as a team.

[RationalMadman]

If Orctin votes T3 rather than Andante here, I will like a giod explanation. I predict that is what will occur.

I also didn't oersonally attack Andante ever. This dramatic response doesn'take sense, I never attacked Andante as a person.

[RationalMadman]

Unvote

Yes cause you came in guns a blazing

Where's the day 1 hello how are you - lets have fun things. It's just straight to lynching people cause they told a joke

Firstly it's called 'eliminating', not 'lynching', on this website.

Secondly, you have said that over and over yet why would that defsult to a scumread as opposed to a townread on me? You explicitly stated that Scum try to avoid attention early on, then you scumread me for doing the opposite (even before you voted me, in your first post).

[RationalMadman]

what would you like to know?

What's your read on Orctin and Rathe?

I know both are voting me. That's not why I picked them. Primarily, they're picked as you haven't made super clear what your read on them is or why.

[RationalMadman]

Sorry, Orctin is no longer voting me.

[RationalMadman]

I crack under pressure, I do not work well under it

If you and Orctin are both Mafia, would you react this way? I am not playing a mind-game here, I'm asking you to either admit it or explain if you react differently to that kind of pressure (Orctin has 2 votes on him).

[RationalMadman]

Well I'm not maf, I can't speak for orctin, none of their lines have stuck out to me so idk, like, I've skimmed over most tbh, I'm not ignoring orctin, just haven't seen an AMAZING post from them

Okay which post?

[RationalMadman]

Sorry I skimread haven't as have

[RationalMadman]

I will like clasko and ivyeo to contribute more. At the moment I still think Andante js scum who is playing well, as opposed to town who is playing poorly (the frustration, genuine or not, is better play from Scum in this scenario).

Pressure does make people feel less pleasant, I do believe town especially who wanted a friendly newbie game, could experience a lot of anger and frustration in Andant's shoes. However, I do not follow Andante's reads or reasoning and that defaults me to scumread the Appeal to Emotion

[RationalMadman]

I think both of the other SEs than myself are town, actually I'm starting to townread Ratheore strongly than JV because Rathe, while dedicated to short posts, is consistently pushing people to reveal thought processes that would help town regardles of if Rathe is scum or not. The way rathe just questioned Andante is something I don't believe would happen if Rathe was scum there, not even if he was Andante's partner.

[RationalMadman]

They are being wagoned more than Andante...

Numerically, yes, however Orctin is only scumread by the two voting him and also by myself. Furthermore, I said that to pressure Orctin to react, if I actually voted him it risked forcing him to out or worse him being Elim'd before having the chance.

My reads aren't always, if ever, concrete even though I state them that way. I have a unique belief in Mafia that Town should keep pressuring and bluffing scum with reads they're only half-sure of if there aren't strong real ones (and vice versa but less so from Scum to town) so as to endlessly force tells and/or slips which then leads to more data to draw reads, including 'with and not with" reads that help post-flip.

Orctin's reaction was terrible. He found some strange reason to justify unvoting me, which is just not the right thing to do in his shoes especially if he's Town. However, that assumes he thinks about things in terms of strategy rather than perhaps just voting me initially really based on the read he says he had (that I am an overplaying scum member who is overly triny got portray Town) and coincidentally had become less sure of that read up until I said I wanted to vote him through to elimination.

I do not townread Orctin or Andante but I admit that Andante's reactions could be done as either alignment, why I believe she's Scum is because the reads she has don't add up at all in my opinion.

[RationalMadman]

"overly triny got "

Overly trying to*

[RationalMadman]

Poke on players with the only purpose to get a reaction from them, then read any reaction that is pushing back at you as scum.

Yes, that would be terrible if I did that.

I townread Rathe voting me and keeping on me as well as the other things he's done.

I townread JacksonVirgo espect for his negative hounding of me and questionin of my thought process as well as quality content that increased due to what I encouraged to happen to the game (everyone talking a lot and attacking each other).

I did not scumread reactions to me by default, however your and Andante's reaction to me has been scummy as has been Ivyeo's lack of reactions to anyone.

[RationalMadman]

Could you throw me some examples

I'll quote later if need be but basically, Andante's reads follow this pattern:

Those that scumread her are scum.
Those that townread those that scumread her lean scum or are unreadable.
Those that lurk are scum.
Those that go gentle on her despite contributing are town.

I have found that this adds up to mean she is either scum or is detrimental to Town if she is Town. It's not just who, it's the why. The actual reasoning behind her reads is always reading as 'let me say something to justify it' not ever wow, Andante has properly analysed this player and makes a decent point.

For instance, when I asked her what kind of meta read led her to scumread T3 she gets furious at me and tells me to reread his games. Then, says nothing more.

When she scumreads Clasko, she lists the quotes, says some generic reason for it being scummy and doesn't even remotely justify it, Clasko could easily be her partner that she tried to soft-bus (bussing where you intend to ubvote them but just in case, your vote makes you look towny later). Orctin coukd also be her partner, both have a very strange set of interactions where Orctin and Andante are two of the most active players and it's a cutthroat atmosphere yet neither has attacked the other at all, in fact Andante did quite Orctin's read on her and soecified how ridiculous it was which Orctin ignored and Andante later tells me ahe has absolutely no read on him (she should scumread him).

[RationalMadman]

"espect for his negative hounding of me and questionin of my thought process"
Especially for*

[RationalMadman]

When i noted a while back some reads Andante was included on that list

See thats something i've seen you do 3-4 time now - post half truths, you take one piece of something someone says - pounce on it - yet ignore the rest - this is why i'm suspect of you - you tend to take one piece of something and then try to use it against people taking things out of context or putting the whole info there when you do - this is to me a scum read cause that's how scum lie, you have to mix in truth with the lie so it looks more believable and townies can see the piece you are using but if they aren't looking hard enough then they fall into the trap of taking that half post as what was actually said

I know you did, I even referred to her reaction on your read of her, which was basically a 1 liner of nothingness.

[RationalMadman]

Both yoyr read on her AND her reaction

[RationalMadman]

You and Andante have varely interacted beyond that, you didn't even answer her question to you about said read.

[RationalMadman]

Barely*

[RationalMadman]

If you scumread me that much, why did you unvote me.

[RationalMadman]

That response is extremely scummy, it means you knowing lied about me lying and find it funny how much I tried to respond to it.

I honestly am happy to vote you at this point, however you also could just be town who likes to troll and provoke.

[RationalMadman]

I think Orctin is town for these last two replies.

[RationalMadman]

Andante and Clasko is the team. Fairly sure of this now.

[RationalMadman]

Possibly Ivyeo in place of either. Everyone else reads town for me or null with town leaning.

[RationalMadman]

I think Orctin is town for these last two replies.

Can you elaborate on this?

From where I'm standing orctin's last two posts don't match up to your change in opinion on him, unless I'm grossly missing something.

He displays perception and thinking that would be pointless to fake as scum. He reveals that he doesn't truly scumread me and just reads me as a player who does that eegardless of alignment, then he demands I give him the same respect. That matches to his previous tone but adds a new friendly dynamic to it. Orctin as scum there had every reason to pretend I'm really bullshitting and/or remain as hostile as ever even further interrogating me for no real reason.

Also, Orctin reveals/implies that he's been reading me based on a perception that I play very unusual. That may explain why he voted me and then suddenly unvoted me where he did, since when he unvoted me he simoly got a vibe I was towny and didn't and still doesn't really know what to make of me. This completely adds up now.

I don't scum read him anymore and that is a read I am allowed to have without your approval.

[RationalMadman]

Fascinating.

[RationalMadman]

Love the reasoning behind it too, can't disguise your intent better, bravo...

[RationalMadman]

Your reads are solely based on who scumreads you, Andante. I said this before twice or three times and I'll say it again.

[RationalMadman]

When/if I am voted and I flip town I insist that you are voted off. Deal?

[RationalMadman]

Why would mafia kill you at night? You're heavily scumread, so if you're Town you wouldn't die. You just said that to appeal to emotion.

[RationalMadman]

If I'm voted off, I flip Town and you're not dying that jight phase even if you're Town. Use your head, what you just said wouldn't even be a thought as a Townie. When havs you been nightkilled in the games you've played? Sorry if they're all ongoing then IDK what to ask.

[RationalMadman]

Btw Andante JV is a viable team.

An undertoned agenda that could be interpreted in JacksonVorgo's decebt posts are to attacke and anyone they feel is viable to take the heat off of Andante. I did notice this but I did and do currently Town read it. I do notice it however, I'd like to see JV and Andante grill one another a little.

[RationalMadman]

Attack me*

[RationalMadman]

So either T3 and me are both scum or both masons? Ever consider I didn't buddy him, he buddied me?

Town:RM
Lean town: Rathe, Ivy
Null: Clasko
Lean scum: orctin, Andante
Scum: Dem

So basically anyone with Rathe is town - anyone who questions him is scum

Only scum read in absolutes on Day 1 with no info there

If they are masons then at this point they might as well say so cause by what being said scum already know - if not then it's a sidetrack arguement to sow doubt among town

[RationalMadman]

Like, #96 could be a genuine misread or other misunderstanding of Rathe’s arguments, but it also could just be a scum intentionally misinterpreting things.

What did I misunderstand about Rathe's arguments when it was Orctin I was replying to? with that question?

The first part replied to Rathe, not the ending.

[RationalMadman]

ACTUALLY NONE OF MY REPLY REPLIED TO RATHE?

[RationalMadman]

I am so confused, I replied to Rathe before and later than that, how was I replying to Rathe in 96? It was Orctin's post.

[RationalMadman]

If you practise in tryhard games, you actually can become worse not better because good players don't consistently leak tells or react to your reads the same way, so that's also why I quit 'tryhard mafia' for a long time.

It gets frustrating and unrewarding. However, I've got a taste for it on another forum when a game turned up and want to play it regularly now.

[RationalMadman]

I don't think you people realise that sometimes saying things to see reaction to those things gets more done than saying nothing at all. Not every post has to make perfect sense and get you townread, at least that's not how I see it.

[RationalMadman]

You're also throwing me in there simply because your reads do not align with my own, and that's weak reasonings. Also you expect me to throw my reads away to grill a town-read of mine? Serious?

Grilling doesn't hurt.

100%, his reaction is so hilarious because his entire post did what I said he's been doing to hide his agenda, now he makes it crystal-clear blatant.

He only has to click ISO on Andante and read any read at all that she's revealed vs what she's avoided.

She refuses to out reads on people who don't townread someone scumreading her, she scumreads anyone who scumreads her and is hostile to anyone who townreads them. This is the entire basis on which she has developed any reads this game.

If Andante plays terrible as town consistently, it is up to her to improve not up to me to factor in unless it is proven she plays superior and justified read superior to this as Scum.

[RationalMadman]

their reaction* sorry for using 'he' pronoun.

[RationalMadman]

Btw Andante JV is a viable team.

An undertoned agenda that could be interpreted in JacksonVorgo's decebt posts are to attacke and anyone they feel is viable to take the heat off of Andante. I did notice this but I did and do currently Town read it. I do notice it however, I'd like to see JV and Andante grill one another a little.

Did you read that game I linked you, they're acting

insanely

like that game and I am not wanting to eliminate that on day 1. You're also throwing me in there simply because your reads do not align with my own, and that's weak reasonings. Also you expect me to throw my reads away to grill a town-read of mine? Serious?

I don't really see how that proves she plays better as Scum. I have given her several opportunities and she has only tried to dodge me at first by focusing on T3 after doing the same thing by focusing on Clasko before him. Then she moved onto me now out of nowhere.

[RationalMadman]

meant T3 but was very tired, appologies.
Just felt kinda manipulative to phrase his reads like that

No. Orctin is the one who did that, not me.

[RationalMadman]

you don't feel clasko should have a single line of substance thus far?

i dont think T3 and rational r partners cuz they r linked

ok, thanks for repeating what I've been saying...

thoughts on clasco?

Could you throw me some examples

I'll quote later if need be but basically, Andante's reads follow this pattern:

Those that scumread her are scum.

OMGUS is not always a scum trait, it can be but it's not the rule.

Those that townread those that scumread her lean scum or are unreadable.

I do not recall this being the case, back this up with quotes if you can

Those that lurk are scum.

Same as #2

Those that go gentle on her despite contributing are town.

Same as #3

I have found that this adds up to mean she is either scum or is detrimental to Town if she is Town. It's not just who, it's the why. The actual reasoning behind her reads is always reading as 'let me say something to justify it' not ever wow, Andante has properly analysed this player and makes a decent point.

For instance, when I asked her what kind of meta read led her to scumread T3 she gets furious at me and tells me to reread his games. Then, says nothing more.

When she scumreads Clasko, she lists the quotes, says some generic reason for it being scummy and doesn't even remotely justify it, Clasko could easily be her partner that she tried to soft-bus (bussing where you intend to ubvote them but just in case, your vote makes you look towny later). Orctin coukd also be her partner, both have a very strange set of interactions where Orctin and Andante are two of the most active players and it's a cutthroat atmosphere yet neither has attacked the other at all, in fact Andante did quite Orctin's read on her and soecified how ridiculous it was which Orctin ignored and Andante later tells me ahe has absolutely no read on him (she should scumread him).

I can see why you think that this makes them scum but I heavily disagree. In previous games they acted very much on emotion and got extremely pissed off at people pushing them, calling them scum in return.

the 'gentle' proves itself true, for instance Rathe voted me and Andante instantly was gentle with Rathe, Clasko outed a towny vibe-read on me in one of his first posts, then lurked, Andante instantly justifies a scumread based on that then out of nowhere switches to T3 because he sticks to townreading me and scumreading Andante.

Why are you against grilling your townread? That is pretty ridiculous, no offence. How do you make sure your townread is actually town without said part of the determining?

Andante's ISO posts make everything I am saying crystal clear, do you expect me to quote her entire posting history because 90% are gonna need to be used to prove myself correct if you want every applicable quote.

[RationalMadman]

Andante never grills Rathe past that point, keeps being passive with anyone who scumreads those that scumread Andante herself.

[RationalMadman]

Same behaviour with Orctin, asks one question then very gentle.

[RationalMadman]

Meaning Andante to Orctin ^

[RationalMadman]

If Rathe is willing to take the flack I want to force this through. I do, however, think Rathe hiding the 'truth' if it isnthe case is absolutely futile.

[RationalMadman]

But I am willing to vote this through to elimination without Rathe outing if everyone agrees Rathe is strobgly implying something here.

[RationalMadman]

Andante as scum would absolutely have motive to fake their role as an important PR there, especially the defensive one.

[RationalMadman]

Andante's reason for outing is that she will die at night, but not at day? It makes NO sense. i already said it makes jo sense for Scum to kill Andante as she's scumread by at the very least me but also others, especially T3 (assuming T3 is the scum but I townread him).

[RationalMadman]

I will absolutely not unvote Andante unless Rathe or someone else makes crystal clear it's my fault if this is Doc. I do jot CC Doc.

[RationalMadman]

I don't say I'm not a PR that rules Doc out. I say I am not Doc, just so we are crystal clear what I am claiming. Hypothetically, I am a PR who Pr-reads Rathe here.

[RationalMadman]

Actually no, I will take the flack, hammer this.

[RationalMadman]

I will 100% accept a voting of me tomorrow if this is wrong, hammer on Andante immediately.

[RationalMadman]

I believe that strong in my scumread after the doc claim

[RationalMadman]

Andante had NO reason to out uet if Doc. I am guaranteeing yoy this is scum, I will take full blame. I have reread some pages I am absolutely certain Andante js scum here.

[RationalMadman]

No, vote Andante I guarantee you it will flip scum not Dox.

[RationalMadman]

There is absolutely no way Andante is Doc claiming there. Idc what your Post says about the logic, Andante olays woth terrible strategy as a Townie and may be doing the same as scum here. Yoyr meta read is irrelevant as it forgets she hasn't revealed her scum meta.

[RationalMadman]

There is NO WAY Andante claims there or behaves how she has, as Doc. She should WANT to die at night instead of here. You are the one missing logic.

[RationalMadman]

Andante had NO reason to out uet if Doc. I am guaranteeing yoy this is scum, I will take full blame. I have reread some pages I am absolutely certain Andante js scum here.

This is a strawmans argument.

They were obviously frustrated at being wagoned, just like last game that I played. It's nothing that indicates them as scum fake-claiming at fucking all.

Yoy want to force PRs to CC? That's the reason she did it. Your answer loes in what you're enabling.

[RationalMadman]

She CCs doc, a PR CCs her that is defensive or even better if its 2-goon setup there's comvos where nobody CCs her.

[RationalMadman]

From her perspective this is completely optimal to do as scum. She is running an extreme gambit here, hoping because she CCs before she's E-1 it makes her claimore believable.

[RationalMadman]

She is fake I guarantee it. I will take the full blame.

[RationalMadman]

No you haven't

[RationalMadman]

Scum dies and then the defensive PR dies. It's better from her perspective to CC here than when forced, because it takes only one brave towny to vote her off then

[RationalMadman]

You sag she wouldn't risk it but she absolutely would. Think about the game from her perspective. She ix experiencing extreme pressure and is volatile, panicking.

[RationalMadman]

Wait did they cc someone. I thought they just claimed out of frustration.

They're blackmailing a Pr to CC that can rule Doc out. Use your head.

[RationalMadman]

Sag is a typo of say? What is a sag?

[RationalMadman]

Wait did they cc someone. I thought they just claimed out of frustration.

They're blackmailing a Pr to CC that can rule Doc out. Use your head.

I know what you fucking think they're doing. I am not fucking dense. But you have no fucking idea whether they are or not, you're just thinking they are being you SR them, not following up with a cc is conf-bias and can destroy the fuck out of the Town.

Nope. You have the Conf bias and have ever since daystart. You're convinced every single part of reasons to scumread Andante are nillified by the fact she has played terribly in another game she was Town in. That is the defit of Confirmation Bias. In this scenario you aren't even thinking straight. You are not thinking about how she's going to react as Doc here, why would she out? Why would she not ever once answer my questions? Why constantlt AtE, vote me after voting T3 for the same bullshit reason and then out as Doc instead of contributing anything worthwhile?

Why is she outing as Doc and not then insisting you vote me out? Because she's waiting for the CC.

[RationalMadman]

Panic and frustration are coinciding but there's a plan behind the claim and you're helping it succeed.

[RationalMadman]

Definition* not defit

[RationalMadman]

Panic and frustration are coinciding but there's a plan behind the claim and you're helping it succeed.

Alright, I'll throw another ball.

Explain why a counterclaim is worse for town than otherwise. Taking into consideration that Andante could be any alignment since we don't know.

Well, that is based on a strong, consistent scumrwad onnehr from me a day phase long as well as something I won't reveal until tomorrow' day phase if I'm alive.


For all you know, I am PR here begging you not to force me to out. Think. Read between the lines of Rathe and my posts as well as whoever reacts from now on, which I'm helping reveal as little as possible by my insertion here.

Trust me please, if this flips Doc, vote me tomorrow and spit on my eliminated body.

[RationalMadman]

I would also like you to answer this. What makes you assume I am conf-biased rather than me being scum with them. You said earlier that we were a viable team, yet that didn't seem to come into your head when I was pushing towards the agenda you think scum!andante is pushing.

Because there is no use talking to you as if you're the partner. If you are, then I will convinceore bystanders by sticking to my townread on you.

I think like Scum even when I am a Townie, I play to manipulate regardless, in favoir of my agenda. This game I am Town and my agenda right now is to get you to back off of pushing for an explicit CC to Andante.

If I were scum here, this isn't what I'd do, unless I were scum with you and really wanted a fantastic drama (but I'd never tunnel Andante how I did as scum especially as if she's PR that will really come to bite me, it's not my style, though it's true if you read my earliest games I was a gambit-hungry cretin as scum, I've matured since then believe me).

[RationalMadman]

At this point, the arguement of "Her play doesn't make sense as town" doesn't work if you agree it doesn't work as mafia ethier.

It does work if she's mafia but it was executed very strangely indeed.

She also is risking that a player like me will wet my pants as a vanilla or outright CC her as a PR that happens to rule Doc out if am such a PR.

Btw her CCing Doc could also benefit even if itst a setup and outcome where noone CCs Doc, her being left alive will be called a WIFOM avoidance and people will assume Mafia aimed for Cop.

It's viable indeed, since she believes we're voting her and she struggles to Towntell (even as Town as Jackson Virgo pointed out many times). She hasn't answered a single one of my interrogation questions all game. Not one. She dodges all of them and AtEs

[RationalMadman]

"She also is risking that a player like me will wet my pants as a vanilla or outright CC her as a PR that happens to rule Doc out if am such a PR.
"

I meant risking everything on that

[RationalMadman]

Jammer Andante. Andante should townread how hard I am ohshing and offering to vote me off tomorrow. As Scum I'd want to night kill her, even if Cop would catch me it's safer to force Cop not to investigate outside me and potentially have a win D2.

I am telling you this. If Andante flips Doc, you vote me Day 2.

[RationalMadman]

Everyone hanmer Andante, she is not at all actung how she would as Doctor in this scenario. She isn't even insisting you all vote me, nor is she displaying further rage, she's maintaining a 'pity me' persona and waiting for a CC.

[RationalMadman]

Sorry, when I said Cop, it could be Tracker too.

[RationalMadman]

From her perspective this is completely optimal to do as scum. She is running an extreme gambit here, hoping because she CCs before she's E-1 it makes her claimore believable.

please check my post, it's not optimal at all

It is if she thinks she's being voted off anyway and doesn't care to towntell and risk her partner going down first.

[RationalMadman]

we definitely have at least 1 scum in clasko t3 orc ivy.

If it is, It's Clasko or Ivy.

[RationalMadman]

From her perspective this is completely optimal to do as scum. She is running an extreme gambit here, hoping because she CCs before she's E-1 it makes her claimore believable.

please check my post, it's not optimal at all

It is if she thinks she's being voted off anyway and doesn't care to towntell and risk her partner going down first.

which she was not. she could be, but it's not likely at all.

She has not, even now, answered a damn question I or T3 has asked her about the game. It's all waaa waaaa I'm town I'm going to dieee oh mooo I vote Clasko Oh nooook I vote T3 oh noooo it's RM!!! Oh nooo Rathe hella sus pls halp me I am innocent Doc

[RationalMadman]

i can see two newbies getting scared and immediately fakeclaiming in a panic. possible? yes. likely? no.

which is why, if we have a cc available, please claim.

as explained above, a fake doctor claim must involve a cc in all 9 scenarios, so if there is one, the pr must claim.

By the way, if it's Masons or Neighbours with a PR it's actually PERFECT aa she outs both at once.

[RationalMadman]

I did never say ahe made the best series of plays here, best play is to towntell in the first place. I say her play is sacrificing herself to force her partner to have both or one PR that can be nightkilled revealed

[RationalMadman]

it outs the setup for scum, not the prs. they still need to hunt for pr

You mentioned neighbor setups.

[RationalMadman]

Do not CC just hammer, I will take the blame. I am certain of this.

[RationalMadman]

It's not logic, it's a fact to encourage others who are lacking in logic to sheep me without forcing PRs to out.

[RationalMadman]

I think I might want to rethink this. Rathe, are you ccing doc?

Ask it once more and you are scum.

[RationalMadman]

Actually T3 and Andante having a bus relationship makes a lot of sense.

Andante has absolutely no intention of succeeding in voting T3 off, it's drama, Andante intends to lose. It's very possible Clasko replaced out due to that but if not, I am actually open to the idea T3 and Andante developed a bus strategy early into the day that they played out and Andante concluded this was a great way to end it off.

[RationalMadman]

Andante doesn't necessarily intend to 'lose' but sure as hell is ready to be voted off in its entirety.

If this is 2 goons setup and there's a cop, doc won't be cc'd at all and we falsely townread Andante.

[RationalMadman]

Andante has done absolutley nothing towny, I have been reading her other games and this isn't even close to her depth and ability to analyse games as Town. She AtE's regardless of alignment but the depth of posts and way she dodges questions is a completely new thing this game vs before.

JacksonVirgo's meta-defence doesn't hold water.

[RationalMadman]

You're choosing to play off softs you believe? so you lim me, I flip doc, then you go "Rathe was softing doc!!" which of course Rathe will deny...

Too calm about it, zero hostility, you scumread T3 (you say) and are leading an elimination of him yet you talk to him as if he's town you want to gently convince is misreading a situation.

[RationalMadman]

Rathe and Orctin are my new hardest townreads.

I have thought a lot about why Andante and Orctin interacted how they did, where they both barely go at the other despite being active but here is what I notice:

Orctin basically solely interact with me and based his reads heavily around me vs Andante. It is possible he just did something similar to tunneling but where he saw the game in a blinkered manner as he had a gut read I was scum overplaying my role and didn't really read the others much or feel the need to reply much to people other than me because I directly questioned things and attacked his reasoning.

In contrast, while Orctin didn't interact much outside of me at all, Andante did. Andante interacts by one-way communication to her scumreads. The only thing she did to Orctin was ask him one question and then lay off, which sure she could do to a partner but Orctin released pressure on me exactly when Andante would most require him not to.

So, by contextual reading, I am sure Rathe and Orctin are 100% Town if Andante is scum (which I am VERY sure of).

Ivyeo and T3 are viable partners as is Clasko.

Demainer and JacksonVirgo are both Townread by me for similar reasons. Both have interacted in ways that I don't ever believe the partner of Andante would but on top of that both have given 'fair enough' reasoning behind their reads that show Town-think. JacksonVirgo panicking about potential Doc being eliminated went beyond what the partner would reveal if they panicked about their partner's gambit not paying off. JacksonVirgo genuinely was deeply worried and tried to really attack me. If JV was the partner of Andante, they'd have probably tried to appeal to everyone at once and not be so emotionally blatant about the panic.

[RationalMadman]

If Andante is simply just a very poorly playing Doc (which I am certain is not the case, she's Mafia not Doc), then hypothetically the townreads are the same except for JacksonVirgo.

JacksonVirgo as scum with Andante being real Doc could have pulled off a fantastic act throughout the day but especially post-outing where the intention is to towntell to hell and back no matter what outcome occurs.

[RationalMadman]

T3 could be any alignment, he has Town depth of reads but very odd moments throughout like how he copied most of my reads, buddied me from the get-go and right now is trying to ruin the entire advantage of voting Andante off without forcing outs, despite being on the bandwagon.

[RationalMadman]

there's no logic in voting out the doc claim lmao

'lmao' is not what real doc would even think to type there.

[RationalMadman]

I insist on the elimination of Andante, I will take full blame.

[RationalMadman]

Sure do what you want, if yoy want to lose the game that's fine. Better I am eliminated if you want to lose this bad

[RationalMadman]

@mod JacksonVirgo has been continually abusive to me and now called me a fucking idiot. I expect reprimanding.

[RationalMadman]

Actually, okay, since Town wants to play this way let's get a PR to CC. If no CC and jf Andante doesn't doe at night we eliminate her tomorrow. Oh no, that means kf she's left alive we assume she's Town anyway as it's WIFOM potentially. If there's no CC it xan be 2-goon setup

[RationalMadman]

But anyway sonce Town want to play this badly, let's ask for a CC. Can the role that conteadicts Doc at least one of you please out.

[RationalMadman]

Andante, who is scum telling in every possible way has demanded you to CC, please oblige and help the Mafia make the fakeclaim worth it. Or, stay silent a d get .e eliminated.

[RationalMadman]

Town insist on a CC, this is not a drill please CC if your role contradicts Doctor being Andante's role.

[RationalMadman]

If there's no CC O guess it's 2-goon setup and she hit the jackpot with Town's response.

[RationalMadman]

2-goon setup is 2/3 probability of nobody CCing Doc eben when demanded to... It's perfect fakeclaim.

[RationalMadman]

So EVEN if she is not CCd I don't for one second townread her

[RationalMadman]

Rathe is Town. Andante is scum.

[RationalMadman]

2-goon setup is 2/3 probability of nobody CCing Doc eben when demanded to... It's perfect fakeclaim.

That's wrong.

1/3 of it being a 2-goon setup.
1/3 of it being a valid claim in a 2-goon setup.

Making it 1/3 * 1/3 chance that it's a fake-claim if nobody ccs.
That's 0.11 chance. I don't know where the hell you pulled 2/3 from.

Scum know 3/3 which setup it is scum-wise...

[RationalMadman]

I am outing as explicitly being a role that doesn't rule out doctor. I just 100% scumread Andante even post-out

[RationalMadman]

Rathe was a player I assumed CCd at first and I wanted to soft-roleswap but Town us insisting in concrete CC.

[RationalMadman]

Hammer Andante I will take the blame

[RationalMadman]

Says doc claim rather than Doc.

Says Doc rather than Doctor (Doc would be howbthey chatted in scumchat about the idea, not Doctor but reading a role PM and tellimg it would feel serious, she'd say Doctor)
After it tunnels antone votimg her, now outs a townread on the person she is wanting town to bandwagon

[RationalMadman]

Whatever poor soul would shoot someone as useful to Town as me is hilarious. Hope that you vote Andante and then them (just kidding this game has no gun).

[RationalMadman]

Rathe flips Town here.

[RationalMadman]

You haven't been useful, you've been antagonistic the whole game, basically playing as if this is a one man game and the rest of us are along for the ride

From everyone's perspective that is the case. What is your one man ride doing? Why are you voting nobody?

[RationalMadman]

Today we vote clasko's replacement or andante, trust me that is the most probable team.

[RationalMadman]

I refuse to townread andante

[RationalMadman]

VFP please claim this is essential, if you are PR claim very fast, I am willing to vote you if you are not.

[RationalMadman]

we definitely have at least 1 scum in clasko t3 orc ivy.

Demainer looks pretty town to me.

it outs the setup for scum, not the prs. they still need to hunt for pr

This is just town minded here.

I don't know how to read that action by Ivyeo to be honest. It could be Town easily if she had a strong townread on Andante and scumread on T3 combined with a townread on me, given the situation.

[RationalMadman]

Sorry I quoted the wrong post.

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: Rathe

This is E-1

Comes back, still voting, no CC

Is this town to anyone?

I meant to reply to this.

[RationalMadman]

VFP please claim this is essential, if you are PR claim very fast, I am willing to vote you if you are not.

I don't claim for the sake of it. If you think I'm scum then vote me.

I do but not based in yoyr posts at all, Clasko and his interactions (or lack thereof) make me read him as laidback scum partner of a more active player.

[RationalMadman]

Yes.

Anyway, let's see where this goes then.
VOTE: T3

@T3

full reads?

Town: Andante
Lean town: JV, VFP, Demainer
Null: orctin
Lean scum: Rational, Ivy
Scum: Rathe

How do I lean scum and why are VFP and Andante town read?

[RationalMadman]

Also why is Rathe scum?

[RationalMadman]

I was wring jailkeeper would rule out doc in goon-goon setup. Jackson virgonis correct. However, I do still assert that if this is goon-goon it's the most optimal setup to do what Andante did as scum because regardless of if CCd ir not, scum turn around to a massively even game role-wise once forcing PR to cc or lack thereof

[RationalMadman]

Pleas listen to me hammer andante it's the right move.

[RationalMadman]

Okay, actually since I have a super hard townread on Rathe and don't like where that bandwagon is going and I accept that I have no social power to sway Town either way, I will follow the path of least resistance via my reads and will vote T3 here because there is something about the way he's acting and switching around his reads that makes absolutely no sense to me.

UNVOTE: Andante
VOTE: T3

I am fairly sure it works like this: T3 is scum with Andante, is town if Andante is scum or is scum if Andante is real doc based on how he suddenly unvoted as he saw the bandwagon wasn't gaining traction and he didn't want heat on him.

So, I am very okay with where this is going, I do not for one second see a town-town outcome between them, I urge this to be the chosen vote-off if Andante is not an option. VFP makes me think Clasko was laidback Town, not laidback scum.

[RationalMadman]

Do not vote Rathe, I urge that bandwagon to stop, Rathe is the single towniest player at this point in my eyes.

[RationalMadman]

"is town if Andante is scum"

I meant is Town with Andanta as scum. That is not a slip, I 100% made a grammar error, not a logical slip in how I was thinking, I wasn't focusing on the wording.

[RationalMadman]

Andante had a very good reaction after te whole rage quit thing and I do not like Rational andRathe tunnelling.

So outside of my town pool (Andante, Jackson, Radition)

Who should I vote?

Andante.

If not, then T3.

[RationalMadman]

Andante shouldn't be in anyone's townpool

[RationalMadman]

Then don't ask questions if you don't want then answered. You can dislike my answer and say if I say thaat answer you won't listen to me all game. You're the one being petty, not me.

[RationalMadman]

I have given more than decent reads all game.

[RationalMadman]

Don't expect me to pander to yours then.

[RationalMadman]

Don't expect me to pander to yours then.

Logic isn't ego. whatever the hell you're doing however, is

Posts you make ti me are increasingly junk solely containing an insult towards me, I have asked you to stop yet you continue. So, now I will explicitly tell you to fuck off. Stop replying to me unless it's game content.

I don't care if you like me, I don't care if you think my ego is blinding me. This is a mafia game, not an audition to be your idol.

[RationalMadman]

I never made this game about me, several players decided to and I kept reading and applying pressure.


There was never a single stage of this game where my ego blinded me.

[RationalMadman]

I am willing to oveturn this to Andante in a split second. Just say the word.

[RationalMadman]

Overturn*

[RationalMadman]

Btw if I die at night know this: JacksonVirgo is not towntelling if Andante is real Doc. Everything they (pronoun they/them, referring to the single JV, not to Andante) have done is what Scum who want to towntell hard later on would play the situations they've been in.


From the start of thr day phase to now, JacksonVirgo has appeared to have an agenda to force me to back away from Andante or to frame me as scum. When Andante outs as Doc, JV instantly believes it and puts on a spectacular display of aggression but why? Why were they so hostile ans sure? Why is it that since then, JV has merely dedicated to pushinge to feel unhappy rather than contribute anything worthwile?

Odd. It's all odd. T3 also is odd for other reasons a d that team JV and T3 would have played the day how they did... Hmm

[RationalMadman]

On a side note. If asteria was confirmed town, do you think T3 is still scum, and whoever would you look at?

Who is Asteria?

If Andante is scum, yes I do. Though, I admit anyone except Rathe is viable scum if Andante is.

[RationalMadman]

Pushing me*

[RationalMadman]

I regret none of my decisions.

I was wrong about Andante for the right reasons and was instrumental to the bandwagon shifting onto T3, had an opportunity to hammer Rathe that I outright refused to take and I hope have towntold to near-clear status.

[RationalMadman]

This day phase, I intend to take more a backseat, forcing reactions are no longer necessary since the primary Scum member is down. I want to see others organically interact, this will leak towntells. People seem to react different to me.

For the reacord, I townread Rathe the most, Orctin second-most and VFP third-most.

[RationalMadman]

record*

[RationalMadman]

Right now i'm looking at Demainer, Rational, Jackson, Ivy as the top scum partners

You do understand that I had an opportunity to vote Rathe through to elimination, an opportunity to join in a bandwagon on VFP who already had 3 against them and chose to join you voting T3...

[RationalMadman]

Or maybe VFP had only 2 at that point, I am not 100% sure, I just saw a bandwagon building on what was Clasko (as VFP replaced) and townread VFP's reactions and posts upon return.

[RationalMadman]

We have seven alive and 1 scum, this meams we have literally 2 free shots and a third non-free shot on top
Voting Demainer, Jackson and Ivyeo in any order renders us a Town win, in my opinion. I'm aware people are getting annoyed with me talking as some kind of leader, so I just say this to let conversation about it take place. I'm fairly certain Town has guaranteed win if they stick to that order.

[RationalMadman]

Demainer into Jackson into Ivyeo is optimal in my opinion.

[RationalMadman]

When I say 'Town' and 'they', I often like to stop the 'we' and 'us thinking and picture the game from a neutral perspective, this is a habit I gained after my long hiatus from the website. I don't believe in 'we' or 'them' mattering when discussing strategies. I am very sure scum is in those three and is hoping we somehow foolishly think bussing happened.

[RationalMadman]

As you can see ,i said 'we' there, it's interchangeable for me. I am happy to vote Demainer if others are on board.

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: Demainer

[RationalMadman]

If I am the tracker then Orctin is innocent, didn't visit last night.

[RationalMadman]

Let's just vote Demainer, I am quute shre he's not the tracker and I think he replaced out due to rage and not wanting to outright gamethrow.

[RationalMadman]

Nothing he said or did on day one implied he was tracker.

[RationalMadman]

T3's interactions with Demainer and vice versa seemed forced af like scum would do to distance.

[RationalMadman]

Na, that's a hammer.