Newbie 2067 - Pizza! - End!

[Lukewarm]

In case people are interested in seeing what I look for when I am looking for partner interactions, this is it.

Scum don't say that their partner is a town read. Scum don't step in to defend their partner.

Scum say, "yeah, my partner is scummy, but this other person is scummier, lets get them first"

[Zyla]

Sorry to make a 2nd post devoid of real content. RL got out of hand today and the thread went to 100 mph again... It'll be tomorrow morning before I can post anything of substance.

Sorry dudes.

Missed seeing this earlier, but I hope everything goes well and/or gets better

[Haschel Cedricson]

1) You focused on the RQS question, and ignored her calling him out over the the STD read

Gee I wish I had a second bullet point where I addressed the STD re...

2)That is a good thing?? If he is pressed over a read, and the response is "don't pay attention to my reads" why would she not keep pushing?

Yeah, like that one.

Counterpoint, what should HockeyFan have done with his read? Doubled down?

3)Here she is asking him to define how he is coming to a scum read. You are also ignored the fact that she pushes him over his partner associations. Like the exact line of questioning that she puts towards Hockey here, is the same basis for your vote on him in 132, but then you completely skip over that aspect of the questioning.

Yeah I skipped over that aspect of the questioning because it's an aspect I stopped caring about a long time ago.

4) I will concede the point about how Hockey would have perceived me; I was adversarial with his logic, which I can understand him taking to be that I thought he was scum.
But you ignore the part entirely, where she is also pressuring him over his scum read on her in that post.

Hold on, Hockey's scumread on Zyla is based primarily on her lazy case on Hockey. I agree with Hockey that Zyla is making a lazy case on Hockey. Zyla doesn't get townpoints with me by pushing back on that unless that push involves a much less lazy case than what I'm seeing here.

5) Again, you are ignoring the thing that she is actually pressing him over, which is the stuff over his reads of Azeru and Pav.

I was very explicit that I can't evaluate that stuff yet until I do my dive into Hockeyfan.

[cyrus62]

In case people are interested in seeing what I look for when I am looking for partner interactions, this is it.

Scum don't say that their partner is a town read. Scum don't step in to defend their partner.

Scum say, "yeah, my partner is scummy, but this other person is scummier, lets get them first"

not all scum do that read my 6 scum games

[cyrus62]

In case people are interested in seeing what I look for when I am looking for partner interactions, this is it.

Scum don't say that their partner is a town read. Scum don't step in to defend their partner.

Scum say, "yeah, my partner is scummy, but this other person is scummier, lets get them first"

not all scum do that read my 6 scum games

i hurt some one by busing once wont do it again. i do have a heart.

[Lukewarm]

Haschel, I think that we are having two different discussions. I am arguing that Zyla has been clearly prodding and questioning him trying to sort him, which makes me think that she is town genuinely trying to sort him. You appear to be arguing that Zyla's case on HockeyFan is not strong enough to convince you to scum read him.

Counterpoint, what should HockeyFan have done with his read? Doubled down?

Like this. That has nothing to do with the arguement I am trying to make. I think that a town player sees a town read that makes no sense, and they push it. Hockey's reaction does not change whether or not I think Zyla's reaction looks townie.

Yeah I skipped over that aspect of the questioning because it's an aspect I stopped caring about a long time ago.

And here. Whether or not the point Zyla was raising at the time is still relevent now does not matter. At the time, she was locking in on something that she found suspicious, something that you locked in on at the exact same time. But because you don't care now, you are discounting it as town indicative for her to focus on it at the time.

I was very explicit that I can't evaluate that stuff yet until I do my dive into Hockeyfan.

One thing I think we can agree on is this though. I feel like I really need to do a deep dive on HockeyFan again. -- I almost feel icky stepping into the position of arguing Zyla's scum read for her, when I am not sure I even agree with her read.

Basically, I think that Zyla appears genuine in the way that she has pushed HockeyFan, which makes me think she is town, but now I need to figure out how much I agree with her her take / is it enough to change my read on Hockey.

Spoiler:

And I can think she is town, even if I disagree with her read.

[Lukewarm]

In case people are interested in seeing what I look for when I am looking for partner interactions, this is it.

Scum don't say that their partner is a town read. Scum don't step in to defend their partner.

Scum say, "yeah, my partner is scummy, but this other person is scummier, lets get them first"

not all scum do that read my 6 scum games

i hurt some one by busing once wont do it again. i do have a heart.

Maybe re-read my message. I did not describe bussing. I described how 1 scum could SAVE their partner. That is like the opposite of bussing lol

[HockeyFan]

Fuck, Am I just wrong on luke here? Like the luke v Haschel interaction is (probs TVT?) but the fact that Luke just HAD to defend the first real pressure zyla has gotten all game seems odd to me. @Luke, im assuming u hard TR Zyla here then right?

[Zyla]

You know, I never really understand what people have against people defending each other. Like yes, stepping in front of a question that was asked specifically to someone can hurt the town at spots, but if someone is accusing someone and you disagree with the reasons, why *wouldn't* you step in and say "that doesn't seem right to me"?

Even if I agree with someone's read on someone, I'll step in on occasion if I think that their reasoning is off. Whether or not the person is scum, it ends up bringing discussion to the table, which is always good

[Azeru]

Not sure how to feel about STD putting you back at E-1 either....

Although, I did look back in his iso, and he stated he was scum reading you and willing to hammer after people had time to look over the case. So I guess he did not see the same thing I did in your responses?

I am interested if Pav and/or Azeru agree with me or with STD on how you are handling being at E-1

I'm of the opinion that putting Strange at E-1 didn't result with a whole lot. I threw my vote on with regards to 609, both in the sense that I really didn't love that post (alongside 531 especially), and Strange was advocating for a vote on themselves to acquire information which is... an interesting angle, but I'll take it.

Their reaction felt oddly laissez faire to me, in that they didn't really change how they were playing at all, at least not until you explicitly asked for more in your 681, to which their followups in 683, 687, and 689 were fairly weak. They gave a slight nod towards Pav, then threw my name in there and lost track of that conversation again.

I really like your point made in 698 that it doesn't feel like there's really anyone else behind Strange driving the bus. Because with the way that Strange's gameplay felt exactly the same with that pressure, it definitely feels like they were on their own, as if they didn't have a partner. I don't necessarily think that's anything super indicative to solely base a read off of, but it's a great thought to bring up.

Also, I could've sworn I saw somebody mention something about a Haschel/Strange pairing, but I can't find the comment again. Either way, if we're taking into consideration the previous points made, with Haschel's absence it'd certainly add up.

[Azeru]

After writing all that out, I guess I take back my first statement lol. It didn't come with a ton of content from Strange, but it brought up some new ideas for sure.

[Azeru]

Maybe it is {HC, Strange}

That would explain his "sure, Strange is scummy, but lets transition to Zyla instead" move, and that could explain why Strange didn't have someone in a PT helping them deal with being put at e-1.

Found it.

[Lukewarm]

Fuck, Am I just wrong on luke here? Like the luke v Haschel interaction is (probs TVT?) but the fact that Luke just HAD to defend the first real pressure zyla has gotten all game seems odd to me. @Luke, im assuming u hard TR Zyla here then right?

Zyla being town is my most confident read in the game. And the way that Haschel pushed on Zyla seemed really fishy. Specifically the "made a case for Strange, but voted for Zyla" and then his case seems cherry picked to fit that narrative. - Why in the world would I not call that out?

That is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for - like thats the game.

Spotting people making cases that don't seem genuine, and moves that look like they could fit into a scum agenda (saving Strange without looking like he is defending her).

What do you think I should do if I feel like that is what I am seeing?

[HockeyFan]

You know, I never really understand what people have against people defending each other. Like yes, stepping in front of a question that was asked specifically to someone can hurt the town at spots, but if someone is accusing someone and you disagree with the reasons, why *wouldn't* you step in and say "that doesn't seem right to me"?

Even if I agree with someone's read on someone, I'll step in on occasion if I think that their reasoning is off. Whether or not the person is scum, it ends up bringing discussion to the table, which is always good

Yea defending someone is partnery but not all the time

mafia partners

[HockeyFan]

Fuck, Am I just wrong on luke here? Like the luke v Haschel interaction is (probs TVT?) but the fact that Luke just HAD to defend the first real pressure zyla has gotten all game seems odd to me. @Luke, im assuming u hard TR Zyla here then right?

Zyla being town is my most confident read in the game. And the way that Haschel pushed on Zyla seemed really fishy. Specifically the "made a case for Strange, but voted for Zyla" and then his case seems cherry picked to fit that narrative. - Why in the world would I not call that out?

That is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for - like thats the game.

Spotting people making cases that don't seem genuine, and moves that look like they could fit into a scum agenda (saving Strange without looking like he is defending her).

What do you think I should do if I feel like that is what I am seeing?

Yea I just wanted to confirm that they were your hardest TR, tbh with them being your hardest TR, it looks fine atm

[Azeru]

I'm really not liking the Haschel v Luke bit that's going on right now if I'm being honest. Both sides have some really shady points behind them.

I

really

don't like how in 759 Haschel throws shade at Strange, and then Zyla, with similar reasons, recognizes the pairing as a "possibility", and then chooses to stray the conversation away from Strange. Saying that someone at E-1 is scummy and then steering the topic away from them entirely. Luke's 775 sums this up fairly nicely.

I also

really

don't like how Luke is stepping in and... making Zyla's reads

for her?

Honestly, it mostly gut and possibly some confirmation bias at this point, but I haven't seen enough towniness to counteract the things I've pointed out before previously.

Okay, I guess I will look to your iso to try and figure it out

"My read is based off of gut instinct and maybe some confirmation bias, and I haven't seen enough to reverse that."
"Okay, I'll figure out why you're feeling that way myself."

And then an entire post in 760 dedicated to, again, detailing Zyla's reads for her.

And then continuing to argue with Haschel on Zyla's behalf for multiple more posts. This in and of itself isn't terrible, defending a town read is one thing. But following 758/760? I do not like this.

The only point I can make for Luke's case in this is that he at least somewhat recognized what he was doing at the end of 780, but the whole thing is really rubbing me the wrong way.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I

really

don't like how in 759 Haschel throws shade at Strange, and then Zyla, with similar reasons, recognizes the pairing as a "possibility", and then chooses to stray the conversation away from Strange. Saying that someone at E-1 is scummy and then steering the topic away from them entirely.

I know how people feel about StrangeMatter right now. I don't know they felt about Zyla.

Let's find out.

[Azeru]

"My read is based off of gut instinct and maybe some confirmation bias, and I haven't seen enough to reverse that."
"Okay, I'll figure out why you're feeling that way myself."

And then an entire post in 760 dedicated to, again, detailing Zyla's reads for her.

Like, this isn't even an "oh I'll play devil's advocate and see if I can change your mind" or whatever whatever. This is literally Luke saying "I can see you don't understand your own reads, so here's an explanation that you can go with if you so choose."

[HockeyFan]

....

UNVOTE:

If this is strange's response to being put at e-1, it just doesn't feel like they have a partner?

Like I think that any one in this lobby as Strange's partner would have helped them come up with an angle to push

Maybe everyone I thought was scum before is actually town :/

I wanna revisit this thing tbh. Most of the pressure on Strange just .... died down?

[Azeru]

....

UNVOTE:

If this is strange's response to being put at e-1, it just doesn't feel like they have a partner?

Like I think that any one in this lobby as Strange's partner would have helped them come up with an angle to push

Maybe everyone I thought was scum before is actually town :/

I wanna revisit this thing tbh. Most of the pressure on Strange just .... died down?

Yeah, Luke kinda killed the push with this post. I will say that I don't entirely think it was unwarranted. I was feeling like the push wasn't really going anywhere and I take it that's where Luke was too.

[Lukewarm]

Honestly, it mostly gut and possibly some confirmation bias at this point, but I haven't seen enough towniness to counteract the things I've pointed out before previously.

Okay, I guess I will look to your iso to try and figure it out

"My read is based off of gut instinct and maybe some confirmation bias, and I haven't seen enough to reverse that."
"Okay, I'll figure out why you're feeling that way myself."

I would say that you focused on the first half of Zyla's post here, and I focused on the back half. "To counteract the thing I've pointed out before previously" To which I was responding, I guess I will go find the things you have pointed out previously.

I was actually being a little sarcastic towards Zyla when I typed it, "I guess I will go look in your iso to try and figure it out, [since you did not just restate is when I asked]" although I can see that that does not really read looking at it.

And then an entire post in 760 dedicated to, again, detailing Zyla's reads for her.

And then continuing to argue with Haschel on Zyla's behalf for multiple more posts. This in and of itself isn't terrible, defending a town read is one thing. But following 758/760? I do not like this.

The only point I can make for Luke's case in this is that he at least somewhat recognized what he was doing at the end of 780, but the whole thing is really rubbing me the wrong way.

I think I was primed to do make that case against HC, because I had just done 758/760. Like I literally did a deep dive into Zyla's iso, and saw each of the things that Zyla had pushed Hockey for, so then, literally the second I hit send for 760, I HC's 759 popped up on my screen, and I am like "what do you mean, she has not been scum hunting Hockey. I literally, just seconds ago went and looked at all of the posts where she did the very thing that you are claiming she did not do.

[cyrus62]

This game has become super lame. If I was scum. I would take out either luke or HockeyFan no one can form reads and even now it comes back to like page 3. Oh I think Luke is tvt with haschel. This who thing is lamest . I'm surprised no one sees it. But its right there over and over. Yes both luke and HockeyFan are scum. And they will not move to lynch any one. A a no lynch is better than a .mislynch at least we don't lose town but if you lot let these 2 keep running things . We will lose 2 town by day2

[Lukewarm]

....

UNVOTE:

If this is strange's response to being put at e-1, it just doesn't feel like they have a partner?

Like I think that any one in this lobby as Strange's partner would have helped them come up with an angle to push

Maybe everyone I thought was scum before is actually town :/

I wanna revisit this thing tbh. Most of the pressure on Strange just .... died down?

Yeah, Luke kinda killed the push with this post. I will say that I don't entirely think it was unwarranted. I was feeling like the push wasn't really going anywhere and I take it that's where Luke was too.

I am curious why me moving my vote means that I killed that push, since Strange made it back to at e-1 without me.

Why is a push only alive if I am on it? I noticed the same thing before. Like when I moved from voting HC to voting strange, someone said that I killed that push too. And when I did not want to vote Hockey, cyrus seemed to think that meant the wagon was dead on arrival.

If no wagon can live without without me on it, I think we have some problems. I know I am loud in the thread, but I don't particularly want to be the town leader :/

[Lukewarm]

And they will not move to lynch any one. A a no lynch is better than a .mislynch at least we don't lose town but if you lot let these 2 keep running things . We will lose 2 town by day2

This is very wrong.

A miselim day 1 is always better then a no elim day 1....

A no elim deprives town of information.

[fferyllt]

allez