Open 814: CultD3 CULT WINS

[Raya36]

VOTE: Lemons

[Raya36]

Flea, this is a really weird thing to push Lemon's for

You even seem to be implying Lemon's is town for it?

[Raya36]

UNVOTE:

[Raya36]

I don't really think it's AI though

[Raya36]

I mean I feel like lolhammering would be a scum claim, but I've been bitten too many times by town lolhammering

Some people are really good at getting away with the "oops didn't know" act

I expecting osuka softbus Lemons without any sane reasons, but fearing to actually push him over river because it's too much.

Why were you expecting this?

VOTE: IncideousLemons

Apparently I cant track votes rn.

I don't really understand your case Flea. You think Lemons is scum for not responding to their pm right away, right? But you also said it's scum indicative for that to result in a replace out, which is clearly not the case here.

[Raya36]

Agreeing with Umlaut. It's such a weird take as scum. I feel like this kind of response could have been predicted so why even try pushing that

[Raya36]

I expecting osuka softbus Lemons without any sane reasons, but fearing to actually push him over river because it's too much.

Why were you expecting this?

Many games where mafia always push other mafia "for a bit" and then forgetting like it ever happened gives me this.

Why you even vote if you fear hammers, you always can discuss without votes altogether.[/quote]
Why Osuka over everyone else on the wagon who unvoted when it was brought to E-1?

[Raya36]

Messed up the quote, oops

[Raya36]

He is acting most outrageous with votes on Lemons (literally #1, VOTEVOTEVOTE and then suddenly "oh wait nvm unvote i fear quickhammers")

I can see where you're coming from but why do you think someone unvoting at E-1 is more likely to come from soft-bussing scum than town concerned about a quick-elim?

[Raya36]

Raya has made several frankly dangerous assumptions and is a bit all guns blazing in ILs defence which amuses me, SL.

What assumptions are you referring to?

[Raya36]

if you think you can predict how someone will react to something, isn't it usually best to confirm your suspicions? town doesn't care about looking like they made a scummy push (at least not unless they're in real danger of becoming a miselim), so as a way to start discussion rolling it's not a bad idea. in my experience, standing back with your hands on your hips rather than answering questions as flea does in 77 can sometimes come from scum, but he doesn't seem to have really believed much in his push and was more using it as a reaction test. considering it got us out of RVS unprecedentedly early, which is usually not something scum actively tries to do, i'm comfortable with a slight townlean here.

What I'm trying to say is that scum!Flea could've probably predicted that pushing someone for a role pm confirmation based reason would get fae voted. Generally pushing something that's a stretch is avoided by scum for this reason. So we're agreeing here. Flea is more likely town for this.

[Raya36]

I meant it to be asking you if that's what you were saying because I was (and kinda still am) confused on the case

[Raya36]

He is acting most outrageous with votes on Lemons (literally #1, VOTEVOTEVOTE and then suddenly "oh wait nvm unvote i fear quickhammers")

I can see where you're coming from but why do you think someone unvoting at E-1 is more likely to come from soft-bussing scum than town concerned about a quick-elim?

It would be great if he though he is town, but it's not like that.

Maybe we have different minds, but why i should even care to save someone i vote if i think he is

mafia

cult.

Not everyone votes in the mindset that person is absolutely scum. I was on Lemons too and unvoted when they were brought to E-1.

[Raya36]

The strange was more "i would be surprised if this logic came from town" strange.

I get the sentiment, just seemed an odd way to say scummy if that was the point you were making at the time

Yeah, I agree with this. There's less attachment to a read if you use words like strange to describe scummy.

Lemons can have townpoints for caring about the solve enough to check up on meta. Scum can do this too, but in my experience its a towny thing more often than not.

it's my experience that lemons just generally puts way too much effort into games

Lemons seems to be a strong player which is actually why they were my rvs vote

[Raya36]

... No.

Like look.

Assume i open my role PM, and after decide not to confirm for a bit. After that i open it again, and confirm.

How you know i opened PM, but didn't answer to it? It's literally impossible.

If I understand correctly when the pm was open but not confirmed, Korina wrote that in the confirmation edits in the first post. So anyone watching that post would have seen that the lemons opened their role pm but didn't confirm. Then later when it was confirmed Korina of course updated that.

[Raya36]

we're wasting time. enchant, i've confirmed that flea's information is correct. the push they've made has been responded to. there's no secret "role PM receipt status cop". what is the purpose of this line of questioning?

I would say busy work but I can also understand wanting to understand

[Raya36]

I don't think the enchant questioning thing is AI.

Why not? I think there are points for both ways.

There are other slots who had done less (and have still done less) and yet you're not applying the same scrutiny to them yet. Strange.

WMFM

(This tell didn't actually work in my last game but I still think it has merit)

Yeah, not the biggest fan of this either.

Feels rather disingenuous on your part, tbh.

This is the same idea again

I think Enchant's analysis on the cult's likelihood of hard-bussing is good and pro-town. I hadn't really put too much thought into that possibility.
@Flea, why is this set-up fishing? I don't really get how it was fishing for anything. Plus wouldn't the scum have a decent idea of the set-up? It's been a while since I've played one of these block set-up games.

Sorry, but believing jailkeeper or rolestopper can stop convert is..

Uuuh. How good are docs and jailkeepers? Unless we have unrecruitable townies, it's safe to assume cult always convert someone, and game will turn in chaos mess on day 2 already.

Also don't get this. They can stop the convert?

Lol did MM actually include the co-mod on his list of suspects? Can't believe I missed that, it's self-defensive "please yeet anyone but me" finger-pointing if ever I saw it.

Absolutely agree with this. It's actual proof that no thought was put into who was being attacked. They just grabbed every name that could fit the profile.

It seems like Major minor basically just chose the most convenient wagon to vote for.

What makes Flea convenient?

I'm getting a slight scumread on T3. I do think Major is much scummier though. I just don't want him at E-1 yet.

VOTE: T3

[Raya36]

?

[Raya36]

I wouldn't consider that convenient

[Raya36]

@raya talk to me: why are you scumreading t3? because he hard lurks and only posts shit one liners? he does that every game

Normally the content in his one liners are better though. First post could have been an attempt to direct the conversation somewhere that some rolefishing could easily happen. The quick switch from voting Flea to it not being scummy but we still shouldn't dismiss it is jumpy. Saying the Enchant questioning was NAI when it definitely could be read more into. Saying you're town by meta when he doesn't even have town-meta on you. Saying Major chose a convenient wagon when in my opinion it wasn't convenient at all.

[Raya36]

I'm getting a slight scumread on T3. I do think Major is much scummier though. I just don't want him at E-1 yet.

VOTE: T3

Rayna had felt towny prior to this, but I don't get why the whole not putting someone at E-1 thing. I don't think there's any real danger of hammer at this point of the day, and it just feels weird that they are voting avoiding voting the main slot that they are pushing

I just don't like putting people at E-1 early to be safe and also sometimes people claim at E-1 which isn't what I'm interested in

@raya talk to me: why are you scumreading t3? because he hard lurks and only posts shit one liners? he does that every game

Normally the content in his one liners are better though. First post could have been an attempt to direct the conversation somewhere that some rolefishing could easily happen. The quick switch from voting Flea to it not being scummy but we still shouldn't dismiss it is jumpy. Saying the Enchant questioning was NAI when it definitely could be read more into. Saying you're town by meta when he doesn't even have town-meta on you. Saying Major chose a convenient wagon when in my opinion it wasn't convenient at all.

i'm inclined to agree with this. t3's posts this game have felt noticeably more jumpy and opportunistic this game than any of the games i've played with town!t3. would you not say so, osuka?

The townread on Major was very fence-sitty. The "why" and vote on Enchant didn't really catch my interest either. I can only assume Enchant is just joking around a bit. I don't see the random.org vote on me to be particularly bad on it's own. I'm actually starting to be more interested in T3 than Major now so consider my vote being where I actually want it now

I'll come back with more thoughts on other slots later this weekend. I just got my vaccine and I'm tired

[Raya36]

Lemons does have a point. If you're going to randomly vote, at least don't announce it was random. The random person may take that vote as pressure and give some sort of reaction. You could have pressed me a bit then dropped the random.org thing. Best of both worlds

[Raya36]

Is it possible Enchant is struggling to come up with reads because they're scum and know who town is? I thought Enchant was better than that but I can't remember specific meta off the top of my head.

[Raya36]

Well this slowed down.

Is it possible Enchant is struggling to come up with reads because they're scum and know who town is? I thought Enchant was better than that but I can't remember specific meta off the top of my head.

It's possible, sure. I have no meta one way or the other with Enchant so I can't say whether they find it hard to fake reads. I'm inclined to say that randing their vote is so conspicuous I wouldn't expect it from scum, but blah blah wifom who knows.

Maybe but scum could easily do it as a way to keep posting without really giving any actual info. But then of course blah blah wifom as you said.

I do know Enchant can do better than just mechanics. Idk if this is just a newly gained frustration or if they're hiding behind the mechanics talk as scum

[Raya36]

Sadly i could't fight my VI nature and protect self, so:

Spoiler:

I am Town PR. I strongly believe we are toast without CL dead fast anyway. If you want exact role, then go ahead and ask. If other PR will claim, it would be sweet.

Uhhhh wtf

You had, what, two votes on you? This was completely unnecessary.

I planned to do that anyway, that's reason why i asked what you mind about it. I see this as not bad way.

What's done is done but I don't think claiming this was as beneficial to town as it was to scum.

Oh not much to catch up on.

Still keeping my vote on Enchant.

Definitely keeping my vote on you. Enchant claimed PR, unless you think they're gambiting?

I'm looking over the setup matrix now and every possibility has at least one role who could counter a fake Rolestopper claim, so barring a cc we should believe it.

Agreed, this would be one of the worst fakeclaims scum could do.,

[Raya36]

You posted that after the general PR claim but before the rolestopper claim

[Raya36]

You posted that after the general PR claim but before the rolestopper claim

Enchants pr claim felt like a scum cop out claim earlier. Like that's the kind of thing I would do as scum in ENchants situation there.

Enchant only had 2 votes at the time if I recall correctly. I don't think scum would feel enough pressure to fake claim like that.

[Raya36]

You posted that after the general PR claim but before the rolestopper claim

Enchants pr claim felt like a scum cop out claim earlier. Like that's the kind of thing I would do as scum in ENchants situation there.

Enchant only had 2 votes at the time if I recall correctly. I don't think scum would feel enough pressure to fake claim like that.

I mean T3 literally fakeclaimed BP as scum in our recent large normal with minimal pressure on them so arguments over pressure and choice of role to fakeclaim do have some merit to them but nothing is impossible

Oh, I didn't realize that was something T3 would genuinely do. I don't think that's what Enchant is doing here but I guess I'm wrong about T3's stance being unreasonable.

But what is more useful (and is leaning me towards thinking that Enchant's claim is legit) is the fact that nobody so far has stepped forward as being able to counter claim. AFAIK Lemons, Flea and I have all stated that we cannot counter claim (and Umlaut heavily implied that he couldn't) so if we can get the other slots to step up and state their position then we ought to be able to get a quasi-clear on the Enchant slot, which will then give us a useful baseline to scumhunt from.

Right, I also can't CC

While I wait for Osuka to get back to me, I had a look over a couple of slots that have felt towny but have also been somewhat around the edges of the game, Umlaut and Raya. Umlaut looks very town throughout their ISO imo, but a couple of Raya's posts stood out when I was flicking back through them:

Is it possible Enchant is struggling to come up with reads because they're scum and know who town is? I thought Enchant was better than that but I can't remember specific meta off the top of my head.

Well this slowed down.

Is it possible Enchant is struggling to come up with reads because they're scum and know who town is? I thought Enchant was better than that but I can't remember specific meta off the top of my head.

It's possible, sure. I have no meta one way or the other with Enchant so I can't say whether they find it hard to fake reads. I'm inclined to say that randing their vote is so conspicuous I wouldn't expect it from scum, but blah blah wifom who knows.

Maybe but scum could easily do it as a way to keep posting without really giving any actual info. But then of course blah blah wifom as you said.

I do know Enchant can do better than just mechanics. Idk if this is just a newly gained frustration or if they're hiding behind the mechanics talk as scum

In light of Enchant's claim and the likelihood of them now being town, the above in hindsight have a bit of a vibe of wanting to put the idea of Enchant being scum in people's minds, but without explicitly SRing Enchant or voting the slot. Maybe I'm reading too much into this but I could see how scum could pull this to try and encourage others to vote for Enchant without being in a bad spot themselves, should Enchant flip town

I think it was fair for me to be concerned when I know Enchant doesn't normally stick to only mechanics and is capable of much better. It makes a lot more sense that Enchant was so focused on mechanics now that they have claimed.

[Raya36]

What do you mean by a scum cop out claim? I think I'm misunderstanding

[Raya36]

At the time I thought enchant saw a little bit of pressure as scum and panicked, so decided to get the votes off them by claiming just or so they couldn't be ccd.

Ok then we're definitely disagreeing. I don't think Enchant panics like that as scum

[Raya36]

I think T3 saying in effect "now I believe Enchant's claim" makes it pretty obvious he doesn't have a counterclaim (and, in case anyone is still unclear on this, neither do I). At any rate if he tries to make a counterclaim later I'm certainly not going to believe it.

I don't think T3 keeping his vote on Enchant after the "I'm a PR" claim is scum-indicative at all. I voted Enchant after that and so did others so that's an odd thing to pick on T3 specifically for.

It was more the lack of reasoning when he just stated he was keeping his vote there. You explained why. Although Marky did say T3 has done this before as scum so I guess it would make sense why he could think Enchant was gambiting.
That said, I still scumread T3's general posting and want to keep my vote there.

I think it was fair for me to be concerned when I know Enchant doesn't normally stick to only mechanics and is capable of much better. It makes a lot more sense that Enchant was so focused on mechanics now that they have claimed.

Ok, let me unpick this from a different angle - did you or did you not SR Enchant when you made those comments? If you did, then why not say that rather than skirting around the subject?

I had a scumlean for sure but it wasn't strong. Sometimes I like to pick at players I scumlean by giving little bits of pressure that way without writing a whole case. Sometimes I post like that as reminders to myself later on, kind of like thinking out loud.

[Raya36]

They fucked around for most of the day, then started suggesting PRs should just come out and claim on Day 1, then explicitly claimed to have a PR when they had only two votes on them (though as I recall a lot of people agreed they were weird and null at best), then immediately said they changed their mind and no other PRs should claim. This was erratic and suspect enough behavior to get them pushed to L-1 and a full claim extracted; they're a Town Rolestopper. I'm assuming this claim is true since if it weren't someone would be able to counterclaim.

This was quite negative for being about someone you townread in the end

Umlaut you voted with your initial solve onto Enchant (major minor + t3). Why?

I didn't really think about who was or wasn't on the wagon with me (and if I had I hope I still wouldn't have let it sway me). I didn't really have Enchant as anything like a townread in the first place, then 312 really pinged me and made me want to resolve that slot.

Having resolved it, I think there is very likely scum on the Enchant wagon. I can't make up my mind who is most likely but I sort of feel the most town about T3 out of the three now (meaning it's Major Minor and/or you).

Why does T3 feel the most town?

I had a scumlean for sure but it wasn't strong. Sometimes I like to pick at players I scumlean by giving little bits of pressure that way without writing a whole case. Sometimes I post like that as reminders to myself later on, kind of like thinking out loud.

This feels a bit off. It's pretty fence-sitty and markedly different to your progression on T3, where you explictly called out that you had a slight scumread on them from early on.

It's just my posting style, I'm sure you'd notice it if you read some of my other games too. The scumlean on T3 would be more of a full scumread.

[Raya36]

Interesting that Raya has like... completely ignored me today. I can't think of a single interaction we've had.

Interesting that instead of trying to interact with me you decide to call me out. Interactions go both ways.

I haven't been getting many strong feelings on you either way so I'm going to do a reread on your iso:
I do agree with the majority that your early deflection (other people did less than you statement) wasn't the best but I'm not convinced that it was scummy rather than just a bad defense. What bothers me the most about you is the calling out the backup mod as if they were a player. That's proof that you're not thinking about the players and just grabbing whoever fits the description without considering your read on them (you can't possibly have a read on the mod). I think I already discussed that before? I didn't like your take on Marky and Flea hiding as leadership roles so we don't think they're scum together. I felt that was a stretch and unlikely although you get a pass for this because you said you like to hunt by associatives so I think this one just comes down to a different way of looking at things. You were pro-claiming when Enchant asked too which wasn't good. You were on the Enchant wagon which was likely scum lead. You also brought up the idea of a full claim which would be more beneficial for scum. Your case on Umlaut wasn't bad but you didn't even attempt to push it until someone told you too and instead went for the more likely wagon.

So I guess where I'm at now is either Major or T3 but not together. I'll take some time later or tomorrow to reread anyone else I'm fuzzy on. Dwlee has felt fine to me. Obviously Enchant is good. Osuka sticks out to me as someone I need to reread.

Hi all,
Just a notice, I will be unavailable for most, if not, all of today. I just got my name legally changed to Kori, so I’m gonna be taking today easy and celebrate.

My Discord is Korina#0359 if you urgently need me.
~ Kori

Congratulations Kori! Enjoy your celebrations

I starting to actually suspect Raya though.

She played game with me, but said i never used onlymechanic. In our only game i was town and played almost same and called out for no-reads.

Either Raya have bad memory, or simple used it as excuse.

Can you link the game? I've also read a couple of your other games too so I may be thinking of those.

[Raya36]

Right. You definitely did focus on mechanics but you were giving council suggestions. At first it was focused on player experience but I assumed it evolved into reads even if they weren't being shared. You did give some reads later game when prompted. From that point on you seemed to be reading players

[Raya36]

enchant has absolutely braindead takes but i'm not entirely sure that's necessarily ai. willing to exec this slot

The PR claimed slot... This either has to be a dumbtell or a townslip

[Raya36]

We're getting pretty close to deadline now. My interests are still T3 and Major but I don't see much interest in T3 anymore so I'm going to move over to Major.
VOTE: major

I believe this is E-1 if I counted correctly

[Raya36]

What do you mean? I've been scumhunting if that's what you mean

[Raya36]

Yeah, that's fair. My activity died down a bit recently. I hate to bring up real life as a "defense" but I've been working 7 days a week and exhausted but still doing my best.

What do you think of my post on Major here: 460

[Raya36]

If you happen to prefer T3 I'd happy to vote back over there. I still feel good about my scumread on him. There's just not enough interest this close to deadline

[Raya36]

We're getting pretty close to deadline now. My interests are still T3 and Major but I don't see much interest in T3 anymore so I'm going to move over to Major.
VOTE: major

I believe this is E-1 if I counted correctly

This is +cult equity btw. Waiting while the game stalls out and contributing nothing then using the fact the game has stalled out as a cover to vote for town.

I was never waiting. Like I said, I'm working 7 days a week. I can't be around during the day. I've been posting every evening. I also don't think you're town.

[Raya36]

Well.

1. I was not culted. Even if you doesh't believe me, don't elim me, because i can't be CL.
2. My target was Marky. I somewhat believed he is town, when he tried to push after hammer. Why cult would do that?
3. Idk what to do next.

I'm gonna just put it out there that I definitely don't believe Enchant wasn't culted but they're right we need to hunt for the CL primarily

I think the cop/trackser should out.

Um

I also don't think Flea is likely to be CL due to how hard he pushed major D1. too much risk of him getting elimed D2 as a result

Agreed. Flea has been playing much too aggressively and drawing too much attention to be the CL. The CL is someone being more on the careful side

VOTE: T3
I still like this read from last day and I don't think it's likely T3 was culted because there was a decent amount of pressure there.

Somewhat v/la, I got a kitten

[Raya36]

I think there's just more possibilities there. Maybe someone in the cult PT told him that suggesting that was a bad idea so he retracted it. Maybe he realized it was a bad idea to say as cult, in the exact same way he would've realized it was a bad idea as town.

[Raya36]

Or maybe you're right and it's just an act to look town and trying to fake a thought process in thread

[Raya36]

Yeah I could go for Osuka too. They're quite aggressive but really haven't said much. Only really gave clear reads when asked

[Raya36]

(She's in pet-tax on the discord )

[Raya36]

Yeah I could go for Osuka too. They're quite aggressive but really haven't said much. Only really gave clear reads when asked

i've said this several times on site but ill say it again: it's not my job to dump my brain on thread. if you want to know something i haven't voluntarily publicized and you don't ask, that's your own problem and your own fault

Its still expected that you give a good amount of game advancing content as town though

[Raya36]

I think there's just more possibilities there. Maybe someone in the cult PT told him that suggesting that was a bad idea so he retracted it. Maybe he realized it was a bad idea to say as cult, in the exact same way he would've realized it was a bad idea as town.

Please look at the timestamps.

I thought that the other pr should out because I forgot it wasn't melo. Then I thought, hold up, what are the mechanical probabilities of getting CL if the pr outs and went and calculated it.

And why couldn't you have done that as scum? Or maybe is was the second option where you as scum realized that it was a scummy thing to say

[Raya36]

I'm leaning osuka or t3 as of now. Both of them have been playing in a way that I could see from CL and both are scummy in general

[Raya36]

Let's POE this bad boy - who ISN'T likely to be CL?

Enchant almost certainly not due to un CCed claim
Flea as already mentioned was being v aggressive
Dwlee I don't think hammers end of D1 as CL as the wagon would likely have gone through anyways and it feels like uncessesary attention

That leaves Raya / T3 / Osuka / Umlaut - of these, Umlaut felt v town D1

So basically my d1 POE hasn't really changed, except that Raya/T3 have gone up a bit and Osuka has gone down a bit due to being on/off the town wagon respectively

You've been after me nonstop but you barely gave any good reason. The "shade" on Enchant is simply just how I post. And even if I was scum I wouldn't have known they were a power role or anything so why shade like that anyway. You can see that I will state my scumreads. I will put little self reminders and thought process statements for anything less than a scumlean.

I'm gonna VOTE: Raya tho largely because of the wagon position on Major and the way she flipped her vote there from T3

Your main part of my read is that I'm in a bad position on the wagon but you're not even considering my reasoning. Just purely my position? And of course I switched there. T3 had no interest and I gave my reasoning for Major which despite the flip I still think was valid.

Flea + Marky + Osuka scumteam Osuka cult leader solve SUBMIT

Replace osuka with Raya and that's where I'm at.

Why me? You never gave reasoning

[Raya36]

Let's POE this bad boy - who ISN'T likely to be CL?

Enchant almost certainly not due to un CCed claim
Flea as already mentioned was being v aggressive
Dwlee I don't think hammers end of D1 as CL as the wagon would likely have gone through anyways and it feels like uncessesary attention

That leaves Raya / T3 / Osuka / Umlaut - of these, Umlaut felt v town D1

So basically my d1 POE hasn't really changed, except that Raya/T3 have gone up a bit and Osuka has gone down a bit due to being on/off the town wagon respectively

You've been after me nonstop but you barely gave any good reason. The "shade" on Enchant is simply just how I post. And even if I was scum I wouldn't have known they were a power role or anything so why shade like that anyway. You can see that I will state my scumreads. I will put little self reminders and thought process statements for anything less than a scumlean.

I'm gonna VOTE: Raya tho largely because of the wagon position on Major and the way she flipped her vote there from T3

Your main part of my read is that I'm in a bad position on the wagon but you're not even considering my reasoning. Just purely my position? And of course I switched there. T3 had no interest and I gave my reasoning for Major which despite the flip I still think was valid.

Flea + Marky + Osuka scumteam Osuka cult leader solve SUBMIT

Replace osuka with Raya and that's where I'm at.

Why me? You never gave reasoning

The way you suggested Enchant could be scum without explictly SRing him was different to your interactions with other slots you SRed and I've already pointed this out.

I've also commented on your post where you give your reasons for Major (460) - I get that you justified your vote, although the reasoning felt like a narrative summary of major's interactions. I also get that your vote on major was a compromise from T3, but it is also objectively the penultimate vote on a town wagon, which is frequently a place where scum are found. Ultimately, votes can be justified in a number of ways, but at a basic level of the game, votes on the middle/end of a town wagon have a decent chance of coming from scum. Not always, but frequently.

Enchant was barely a scumread. I already explained why I said what I said. I don't openly state every suspicion I have as a scumread. Sometimes it's better just to prod at someone you might suspect and have them react.

Doesn't it make sense that it's a bit of a narrative. I did say at the start of the post that I was rereading their iso and then of course wrote down my thoughts in order. Actually I just reread my post and that's not a narrative at all. A narrative would be if I just said stated what they did and then stuck a scumread on. I explained everything I liked and disliked. I didn't state anything they did without giving an opinion along with it.

I get that my vote is more likely to come from scum in wagon structure but you need to look at the reasoning more. Look at my stance on T3. The countdown time when I switched. The chances of T3 actually going through at that time. The activity at the time. There were a lot of factors for why I switched.

[Raya36]

I'm pretty sure it's just enchant who was culted but we need to find the CL to win

[Raya36]

They didn't convert me, because they have no benefit from that.

Yes they do.. no chance of their convert being stopped. I feel pretty confident in saying cult either recruited you or no recruited. And the fact that you're arguing they have no benefit from recruiting you makes me think you were recruited. But like I said, doesn't matter until we get the CL.

So I'm going with Osuka is clear. I believe Flea and don't think they would've been recruited since they were quite aggressive. I think cult would have gone for someone more townread but less confrontational. (Outside of going for PR Enchant of course)

[Raya36]

This is where I stand rn

Flea The Magician - Not CL, too aggressive to be CL, too aggressive to have been culted so still town if they were town to begin with
Enchant - Not CL, was rolestopper, now recruited cult
Marky Mark - Unsure, prob just town? Their read on me felt disingenuous but I'm obviously biased so not reading too much into it
T3 - Cult, maybe CL?
Umlaut - Townread
osuka - Cult, maybe CL?
Dwlee99 - Townread

So I think the cult is Enchant, T3, Osuka and one of T3 and Osuka are the leader

[Raya36]

Oops completely forgot the Flea thing while making that list. Let me revise

Flea The Magician - Not CL, too aggressive to be CL, too aggressive to have been culted so still town if they were town to begin with, also claimed tracker
Enchant - Not CL, was rolestopper, now recruited cult
Marky Mark - Unsure, prob just

cult

? Their read on me felt disingenuous. I also don't think they truly think I'm cult for forgetting the claim and clear.
T3 - Cult, maybe CL?
Umlaut - Townread
osuka - Cleared by Flea.
Dwlee99 - Townread

So I'm thinking cult is Enchant, Marky (CL?), T3 (CL?)

[Raya36]

I actually feel more confident about Marky now that I've fixed my mistake and narrowed the pool down more.

Look at his attack on me.

I'm scummy for not wanting to put someone at E-1 (who ended up being town) and instead went to my second scumread (who now has a good chance of being CL). I think it's pretty normal to not put people at E-1 when it's nowhere near the end of the countdown anyway.

Said I was scummy for not explicitly stating a scumread on Enchant but instead shading them while having a different progression on T3... who is a different person...
He said a large part of his scumread on me was my position on the Major wagon and my switch from T3 to there but he never looked into why I switched and what put me in that position on the wagon.

My main problem is he called my case on Major a narrative. No part of my case was even close to a narrative. I explained my opinion but obviously gave context to what I was explaining. That feels incredibly disingenuous.

When I explained myself for the Enchant scumread, the Major case, and my switch off of T3 he said my explanation makes sense but then continued to scumread me. I just explained why his entire case on me was wrong and he agreed with me, so why is he still scumreading me?

Then we have the post saying that he's still happy with his vote on me because I forgot about the Flea claim and Osuka clear while making my list. I'm not gonna explain myself there. Just think about it..

[Raya36]

Well you were only probably town because I felt better about my pool of 3 I already had so there was no room for you. Now that Osuka isn't in that pool you're my next strongest scumread.

[Raya36]

I also don't think they truly think I'm cult for forgetting the claim and clear.

Forgetting it would be one interpretation. Another would be that you either TMIed or forgot about some scum fakeclaim. Lots of potential reasons why scum could get their facts wrong about the scenario

If I TMIed then I would be TMIing town. That's what I meant by think about it at the end of my post

[Raya36]

And yes, your case on major does involve an element of analysis, but is largely rehashing arguments that had already been made by other players. There was no real fire there

Ok so suddenly my case on major isn't bad because it's a narrative. Now it's bad because it's not original. You keep losing things to scumread me for so you make up new ones.

[Raya36]

Ultimately, you'd been playing around the edges D1 and I don't really believe that your heart was in SRing major (or at least not later on in the day). I may not have phrased this in the most articulate manner, but I know when something doesn't feel right

--pedit the pool of 3 you never mentioned in the orginal post but have now conveniently invented

How was I playing around the edges? I thought I was quite vocal about my reads. Major was a later read for sure. I got the read the same time I said I'd read their iso and made my case. And major was second to T3, so my heart wasn't fully set on elimming Major. I wanted T3. But Major was still a good compromise

I did mention it. It's at the bottom. T3, Osuka, Enchant. Now T3, you, Enchant

[Raya36]

If I TMIed then I would be TMIing town. That's what I meant by think about it at the end of my post

In the post you highlighted earlier you have Osuka as potential CL
-Could be they legit are CL and you are cult member and you TMId
-Could be that Flea is town and you just wanted to push Osuka and had forgotten about their result
-Could be that Flea is cult and you forgot that they'd made up a result on Osuka
It's also possible town forgets tracker result here, but its far from the only explanation and you know it, so stop trying to paint it as such

--pedit that's BS ref the case on major and you know it. It's narrative because you are just listing arguments (ie narrating) that have been made by others. Perhaps I could've phrased this better, but we are areguing over semantics here, rather than the actions themselves

-Do you really think cult makes a reads list and accidentally puts the CL as a CL read?? Have you ever as scum accidentally but your teammate as a scumread simply because you know they're scum?
-The second one is the correct one to an extent. I forgot Flea's claim. I believe they are town. I forgot about their result. I wanted to push Osuka because I thought Osuka was cult.
It's not the only possibility but it's the most likely. You only gave 2 and the second makes sense for town too and the first makes 0 sense no matter what. I have never seen someone TMI that way.

I didn't list arguments made by others. I'm not going to go through the whole thread and figure out what's original and what's not but it's not like I reread the whole thread and stole other people's arguments. I read Major's iso, I wrote down my thoughts.

[Raya36]

How was I playing around the edges?

Oh idk, fence sitting on Enchant, which was one of the major things to happen D1. Avoiding having strong reads on most of the plist d1.

I was never fence sitting. I already explained everything for Enchant and you already said my explanation made sense. I had strong reads Day 1. T3 and Major when I made my case for scum, TR on Flea, TR on Umlaut (don't know if I mentioned it but it shouldve been obvious I think)

[Raya36]

Like just flicking through your iso you literally don't take much of a position on any slots d1 apart from SRs on T3 and major, at least one of which is town. You say at one point you are going to re-read Osuka but then curiously never comment on the slot d1 even when I spell out the scummy stuff they've been pulling

Read my iso again. You missed some reads. I did intent to reread osuka but I got busy and it never happened D1 (working 7 days a week and maybe had my kitten depending on when it was)

[Raya36]

1.) It's feasible that scum would TMI a partner when making a readslist. They could be trying to distance and forget that they are "cleared". You implying that scum would never put a teamate as an SR is simply not true
2.) I get that it's subjectve and its entirely possible that I could have phrased it more articulately, but your push in that post on majior felt pretty sterile (unlike your push on me here fwiw), like there was no real fire there but you were just trotting out lines

1) Scum would put a teammate as a scumread. Scum would not

accidentally

put a teammate as a scumread which is what a TMI is.
2) Well it was just a compromise. I still wanted T3. You and T3 are different because you're actually top scumreads. Think of it as Major was a scumlean and you two are scumreads. Which ones do you expect to have the most fire in a case

[Raya36]

Like I get that you're better than me at wording things and I think you're being quite sneaky in terms of trying to attack my wording rather than what I'm actually getting at to make me look bad here and trivialise my points

--pedit you barely mention Flea d1 (you say he's towny in one post early on) so yet again you are trying to bend the truth when in reality the only slots you commented on at any length are the ones you were trying to push - T3 and Major. Feels like someone was keeping their options open

--pedit 2 I'm literally looking at your ISO and your don't touch anyone other than T3/Major except in the briefest sense so wind your neck in and stop twisting evetnts

If I'm attacking your wording and not your case then that's my bad and not my intention. Maybe I'm just not fully understanding.

I clearly stated Flea was town in that post if I recall correctly. Why do I need to reiterate it. There was no significant pressure on Flea that made me feel like I had to step in and defend Flea or restate my townread.

I'm not twisting anything. I've stated my reads even if briefly. I don't need to make towncases. If I didnt state my read for someone like umlaut it felt to me like it was obvious from how much I was agreeing with them. Of course my focus was on my scumreads.

[Raya36]

1.) It's feasible that scum would TMI a partner when making a readslist. They could be trying to distance and forget that they are "cleared". You implying that scum would never put a teamate as an SR is simply not true
2.) I get that it's subjectve and its entirely possible that I could have phrased it more articulately, but your push in that post on majior felt pretty sterile (unlike your push on me here fwiw), like there was no real fire there but you were just trotting out lines

1) Scum would put a teammate as a scumread. Scum would not

accidentally

put a teammate as a scumread which is what a TMI is.
2) Well it was just a compromise. I still wanted T3. You and T3 are different because you're actually top scumreads. Think of it as Major was a scumlean and you two are scumreads. Which ones do you expect to have the most fire in a case

1.) No. The accidental part was that you forgot that in your scenario from your post prior, Osuka couldn't be CL due to Flea's result, so I could totally see you dropping his name in to distance here (eg he might be a cult member) and forgetting that it wasn't consistent with your previous post
2.) Convenient that the confirmed town slot was only a scumlean compared to your current SRs.

1) It is just a fact it wasn't consistent. You need to reconsider why it wasn't consistent. Am I really cult who forgot who the almost conftown were which cult!me should be hyper aware of because they're good players to recruit and also important to manipulate and whatever else. Or am I town who simply forgot a recent event in favour of my entire previous thought process before that event.
2) It's not though. You can clearly see that Major was a compromise and not as strong as my T3 read. Scumlean is pretty accurate.

[Raya36]

Like I literally go from being town for you in 740 to scum in 742 to being your top scumread. You are pulling this progression out of your arse

You went from probably town (but having reason to not like you that may have been biased) simply because I had stronger scumreads and you didn't fit. Now you're scum and I'm actually very glad I decided to move you there despite thinking I may just be biased because this conversation is only reinforcing that read.

[Raya36]

Although it makes sense why you avoided taking positions on your TRs D1 - it lets you turn on whatever slot you need to when you need to find a miselim from somewhere

--pedit Yeah I don't want to make things personal but it just feels like you are being slippery with me eg arguing over the semantics of what 'narrative' was. TRing slots is 100% part of the game and normal town behaviour. If anything, town often tend to hunt more via TRs and POE rather than just pushing slots, which has been largely your method here

I didn't avoid taking positions though. Reread my iso.

I have been town reading slots but it's not normal to full out town case people. I stated my town reads and that's enough.

[Raya36]

I clearly stated Flea was town in that post if I recall correctly. Why do I need to reiterate it. There was no significant pressure on Flea that made me feel like I had to step in and defend Flea or restate my townread.

To answer this specific point the game had moved on significantly and there had been that massive Flea/Major interaction, so I don't think it was a given that your early d1 TR would remain the same

I didnt feel Flea was in any danger there though and my read hadn't changed. If anything my townread got stronger but I didnt feel the need to say that

[Raya36]

VOTE: Raya
The osuka wagon is terrible.

Hm, going back to cult making up reasons to scumread me

Just coming back to some of Raya's stuff from last night

I didn't avoid taking positions though. Reread my iso.

I have been town reading slots but it's not normal to full out town case people. I stated my town reads and that's enough.

I genuinely think the solve here is Raya + Osuka + 1 more (probs enchant). Both Raya and Osuka made an art form out of avoiding taking a position during this game (and no, a TR mentioned in passing v early d1 on Flea doesn't cut it when we all know such early reads are subject to change as the game starts to flesh out a bit more)

Look at Raya's push on me - she talks a good game about why I'm scum but is still voting T3 and not me. Why? probably because T3 is closer to elim right now.

I've actually been thinking about my solve a bit and I'm pretty sure what's happening here is I'm right about T3 being the cult leader, so cultist, Marky, is attacking me for made up reasons to take my attention away from T3 since I'm the one pushing T3 the hardest.

Now the question is whether that reaction was genuine or he faked this all with enchant.

Well if we're going with Enchant is the recruited cult here then it makes a lot of sense that Enchant let T3 know it wasn't actually a hammer so he could react that way then they could come in and say actually it wasn't hammer. Timestamps are around 5m apart too.

I really don't think that that spew clears t3 and that enchant wants it to so badly should raise red flags.

This. Look at the times. Think about it in perspective of T3 and Enchant being scum together. It makes a lot of sense

There is absolutely 0 fire in T3s "hammer" reaction. If I thought someone had quickhammered me, I'd be mad, regardless of whether I thought they were town or not

That doesn't necessarily mean T3 is scum (and Raya voting him while seeing to SR me more in terms of her posts point to this being a potential miselim) but it's certainly not a townflail IMO

And here's the distancing. It's fence sitting

Conclusion: I'm leaving my vote on T3

[Raya36]

Hm, going back to cult making up reasons to scumread me

Utterly subjective

How was that subjective?

I've actually been thinking about my solve a bit and I'm pretty sure what's happening here is I'm right about T3 being the cult leader, so cultist, Marky, is attacking me for made up reasons to take my attention away from T3 since I'm the one pushing T3 the hardest.

Yeah, I'm definitely not pushing you because you're scummy

You haven't made a single point for why I'm scum because I already explained myself and you even said my explanation made sense. Then you started scumreading me for all the same reasons again

Well if we're going with Enchant is the recruited cult here then it makes a lot of sense that Enchant let T3 know it wasn't actually a hammer so he could react that way then they could come in and say actually it wasn't hammer. Timestamps are around 5m apart too.

But it was Flea with the "hammer" iirc

Yeah, that's not what I'm saying though. Enchant saw the "hammer" (someone already called E-1), then let T3 know in the scumchat so he could react that way and then Enchant could swoop in and be like actually that wasn't hammer. "Townslip" secured.

And here's the distancing. It's fence sitting

Stating an item of play is not particularly AI is not fence sitting

You literally gave a point for T3 scum followed by "that doesn't necessarily make T3 scum though"

That's fence sitting

The more Raya posts, the more obvious it is that she is fixated on getting T3 elimed regardless of gamestate. She is clearly pushing me harder with her words but has pulled this new theory out of thin air that I am cult member defending CL!T3 to have a reason to keep trying to get the "easier" T3 lim even though it is utterly inconsistent with her posting

just lim this

Because it makes perfect sense! You pushing me so hard for no reason makes me just feel more like I'm right

[Raya36]

The more Raya posts, the more obvious it is that she is fixated on getting T3 elimed regardless of gamestate. She is clearly pushing me harder with her words but has pulled this new theory out of thin air that I am cult member defending CL!T3 to have a reason to keep trying to get the "easier" T3 lim even though it is utterly inconsistent with her posting

just lim this

Why is fixating on a T3 elim cult behavior? Fixating on eliminating one player you most think is cult leader is exactly what town should be doing here, whereas cult are just as happy to elim pretty much anyone

but

one player.

Because Raya's words and posting implies that she views more likely to be scum than T3, but she continues to vote for and look for a T3 elim. She's pulled this story out of nowhere that its somehow because I'm a cult member defending CL!T3 but only when the issue was brought up, not before

How does it imply that. I don't think you're the CL because of how aggressive you're being and how little your push makes sense. I do think you're cult. I think you're trying to protect T3 who is the CL, so of course my vote is staying there.

How was that subjective?

Because its based on an asumption of Osuka's alignment and whether the wagon is or isnt terrible

Please show me where the osuka wagon is that T3 is referring to.

You haven't made a single point for why I'm scum because I already explained myself and you even said my explanation made sense. Then you started scumreading me for all the same reasons again

Yet again you completely twist my words out of shape. You explained your reasoning for

some

actions that I queried and that reasoning was logically coherent. That doesn't mean that I think

all

your actions are reasonable - just that particular subset.

That covered the main 3 points for your original case. Then even after saying that my defense for those particular points made sense, you still continued to scumread me for those same reasons.

You literally gave a point for T3 scum followed by "that doesn't necessarily make T3 scum though"

Post 809. Just read it. I say that T3's reaction is not a townflail. The implication was that it was NAI - it was never a point for T3 scum. I am sick to the teeth of you twisting my words to undermine me as a player and discredit my push on you.

Given the context, saying that his reaction had 0 fire implies you're stating the reaction was scummy. Then you follow it up with saying it doesn't mean he's scum. My point still stands.

[Raya36]

Funny how my entire team read is voting me rn

[Raya36]

I've seen that Raya has responded to me and I'll set the record straight tomorrow because tbqh I can't be bothered to go through each individual point rn and prove her wrong. She is very good at pretending to look reasonable while subtly twisting my words to make it look like my points against her are wrong. Again, a case of limited fire. If her actions matched her words I would be expecting there to be a lot more oomph behind her words but I'm not sure she even believes her own solve

Stop with the discredit. I am not twisting your words. I am also matching my actions exactly with my words. The CL is someone hiding on the sidelines, T3. You're just cult. Why would I vote you. Part of me thinks since you're replaceable you want me to vote you instead of T3. That's why you keep challenging me to vote you.

[Raya36]

UNVOTE:

I'm stumped rn, not gona lie. I reckon we ought to be able to work out a fair bit from the Raya wagon tho if we think through it logically

Seems I made you back down. Now you need to find someone else to push. Or we could just go for your cult leader, T3

Umlaut/Enchant was culted
Flea/osuka are basically clear
100% not cult is Marky

Like raya and dwlee are basically confirmed cult FMPOV. We need to find which oneis the leader.

What makes Marky not cult, besides that you know he's cult and you're lying. Why couldn't he have been recruited?

[Raya36]

Right, I forgot about that. I still think he started as cult and Enchant was recruited though. I don't see why cult wouldn't recruit Enchant

[Raya36]

Barring extreme deepwolfing Raya and I basicaly havw to be s/t or t/s.

Well I'm pretty confident it's t/s but why can't it be t/t in your eyes?

[Raya36]

Can you do a run down of the POE. Sounds to me you're making that statement on behalf of everyone?

[Raya36]

You're assuming Mark wasn't cult to begin with in that poe. And then making a general statement that you and I must be one scum and one town by a poe that forces your townread of Mark onto everyone else.

[Raya36]

So you're trying to push me as someone who must be scum if you're town for reasoning that doesn't apply to everyone

[Raya36]

Ugh.

Raya is very likely cult FMPOV. Lim this, then I'll face your wrath if this is town.

Your point of view is you're CL and want me gone because I've been pushing you all game.

Seems I made you back down. Now you need to find someone else to push. Or we could just go for your cult leader, T3

You "made me back down"? How big is your ego lol.

Well why else did you change your mind?

I'm not gonna revisit those previous Raya points from a couple of days ago rn as I just can't

be bothered to deal with her arrogance atm and people can make their own minds up, but she can re-raise them if she wants to

think of defense for them.

Fixed it for you

Raya is almost confirmed cult FMPOV and I honestly don't trust you to lim Raya tomorrow if I flip town.

I could say the exact same thing... I'm pretty confident in my solve. It makes perfect sense.

[Raya36]

Yeah, sure. I mean, I think I've already made my point

[Raya36]

Honestly.

I believe Flea is town. Therefory, it would be good to simple sheep him.
If he was converted, then he would trade claim with CL and claim VT. I think so atleast.

VOTE: Dwlee99

That's a lot of words to say "anyone but T3 plz"

More proof that Enchant was culted.

Look back over my case on CL T3. I think it really makes sense. I'll quote it tomorrow if anyone wants me to

[Raya36]

VOTE: Osuka

[Raya36]

We're not voting yet but consider me on T3

[Raya36]

I don't get why I'm being assumed as cult here. I had been scumreading osuka all along by play (not mechanically) and we were close to deadline.

[Raya36]

gg everyone! Thank you Maru for taking this over. I had a lot of fun this game. Especially with the scum theatre with Marky. I've never actually done theatre like that before.