FGO: Mafia in the Lostbelt - 2 Game Over

[Servant Caster]

Archer and Berserker are Mafia.

I don't think my NP is particularly strong

[Servant Caster]

Lancer is town

[Servant Caster]

Mechanically I am a great option for master, in fact I am debating simply claiming what I can offer.

I'm tempted to take this offer at face value.

if Assassin is town we gain ++mech advantage

if Assassin is scum we just kill his teammates and only have one more left to find.

[Servant Caster]

I don't think hand Mastery to the Town Leader,

a Town Leader can lead without an IC card imo.

[Servant Caster]

I meant to say:

I don't think it's necessary to hand the Master to a Town Leader.

Town leader can lead without being confirmed as town

[Servant Caster]

How would we know who to give Mastery to if we don't know the relative strengths of our NPs?

[Servant Caster]

yes I think whoever thinks their NP would be very strong should volunteer for it.

[Servant Caster]

VOTE: Saber

sold

[Servant Caster]

I don't think it's that bad if we hit mafia tbh

[Servant Caster]

I prefer getting a town master but removing a scum early and getting the information/interactions is also pretty helpful.

[Servant Caster]

all mafia role PMs get “upgraded to much stronger versions” and they all get *****. I would say that’s pretty strong

I think from the Moderator post that all that happens is they get ***** and get ** instead of * every turn? But there is one of them removed from the game right off the bat.

[Servant Caster]

Personally I don't really enjoy leading because my reads can be quite terrible at times when I'm off and I would feel incredibly bad about leading town down the wrong direction if I got master'd and then promptly mis-elimmed two players (*_*);;

[Servant Caster]

I assumed post 8 is clarifying what happens in post 0 since post 0 is fairly vague about what the "upgrade" would entail while post 8 is very specific.

I don't think they would get upgraded abilities and ***** ?

[Servant Caster]

Nope I haven't read anything from the first game because I like having new experiences

[Servant Caster]

but it doesn’t seem likely scum is this.. off.

?

How am I off?

[Servant Caster]

I think at this point for me Saber is a TR/Mech choice combined into one so I'm comfortable with this vote.

[Servant Caster]

Caster keeps talking but doesn't say anything about other players. First scum got caught.

my first two posts are 2 scum reads and 1 town read

[Servant Caster]

yea sure on second page

do you have a point?

[Servant Caster]

170 is a lie

[Servant Caster]

It's anti-town for me to explain the thought process behind the scum-read before the elimination phase of the game and irrelevant to master selection since neither of them are likely to be selected at this point.

[Servant Caster]

a big red flag for me is that neither of them reacted to the scum-read at all.

[Servant Caster]

One person ignoring a direct scum-read is null

Two people doing it is more suspicious for me.

[Servant Caster]

when you're scum, and you get accused of being scum, you can brush it off as a lucky guess or a reaction test without merit - you don't feel the pressure and you can just fire back a question etc.

when you're scum and you get accused of being scum with your scum-teammate, it puts more fear into you that the person accusing actually knows what they are doing and has a tendency to cause paralysis in reacting.

when you're town and you get accused of being scum with someone else, you tend to at least ask if the read is associative or specific on behavior.

[Servant Caster]

It was RVS equivalent, read which was made about berserker (who at that moment made 3 posts) has no real value behind it. The AI behavior is the one which happens after.

I talk about other players on pages other than page two as well

your accusation is a lie and continuing to double down on it is just poor play at this point regardless of your alignment.

[Servant Caster]

So your reason for scumreading us is the way we reacted to you scumreading us.

Pedit-
Foreigner, would you be interested in voting me to be master?

no that's just one of the reasons I continue to scum-read you/archer

the initial scum-read was based on actions in the first two pages.

[Servant Caster]

Actually I believe caster is correct in how the mafia upgrade works, which makes me somewhat worried that they actually knew that was what the role upgrade was because I read it entirely differently initially.

?

I am just reading what Cabd has said in his post before the game began.

[Servant Caster]

Do you think my interpretation of Cabd's posts regarding the mafia upgrade is unreasonable?

[Servant Caster]

I don't see why my lack of participation in the first game would impact my ability to read what the moderator has laid out in his posts.

Also I think if the Mafia were to get ***** and */day and additional upgrades that would be quite unbalanced so just putting on my game balance hat I would think it wouldn't be that.

I think you're a fairly easy townread so I don't see what's wrong with Beast's read on you.

[Servant Caster]

So I think that there are 3 players who have actively said that they want it :: Berserker, Assassin, and Saber.

VOTE: Berserker

I am going to assume the mech between the three of them is a wash -- basically, if they were town, and had a bad NP, I imagine they would have backed out of the running - so from here, I think we should assume they are all equal mech wise. At this point I would rather none of the 3 of them give any more info on their NPs, and I don't think it serves town to keep that the focus of the decision

So ignoring the mech side at this point, I think berserker looks like they would be the best town leader.

A big plus for them, in my opinon, is that they do not even seem all that focused on getting the master. Yes they made it clear that they wanted it, but if you scroll through their iso, it is way more focused on interacting with other players and building reads.

Compared to the other two seem, whose isos are 75%+ just talking about why they should get the master slot.

Like, the two are claiming they would work well as town leader, but berserker is showing it already imo

Would you be ok with being the Day 1 elimination if Berserker is Mafia?

[Servant Caster]

Well I have you and berserker as mafia together...

if the town ignores this and makes berserker master and you are one of the key drivers of this, wouldn't you expect me to hard-drive for your elimination on D1?

[Servant Caster]

are you scum-reading saber/me?

[Servant Caster]

I constantly re-evaluate.

Archer going in to try to get you Mastery just kind of reinforces my initial read though.

[Servant Caster]

Like I'd be ecstatic if Berserker got to be Master and was shown to be IC, it would give me the opportunity to re-evaluate my reads and reset without feeling guilty about pushing a mis-elim.

However if I am right, I will be very tunneled on getting Archer killed for it.

[Servant Caster]

Do I understand that you might scum read me on a Berserker scum flip? - Yeah

I already scum-read you.

[Servant Caster]

I could just be right-town too you know >.>

[Servant Caster]

I looked at the thread, stated that I think Berserker is the best choice, and voted for them --- I am hoping that you see now, that there is no reason why I would agree to a town miselim day 1 if I am wrong.


What answer were you even expecting when you asked me the question?

To show some conviction in your town-read of Berserker?

Your vote is based on two things:

(1) You think Berserker is mechanically equivalent to Saber/Assassin, something that I don't think you've laid out good reasoning for.

and

(2) You think Berserker would be a good Town Leader because you believe they will work well with others.

You don't actually state why you believe Berserker is definitely town here.

[Servant Caster]

Your entire case you’ve laid out is that we ignored your scumread and Archer is trying to push for me to be master. You haven’t laid out the rest of your thoughts, so how is anyone supposed to try and see them through your lens?

And as another note entirely, why are you expecting a likely seasoned player list to play inside a neat little box in the first place?

I don't expect Archer to see things through my lens because I believe Archer is Mafia.

[Servant Caster]

why are you expecting a likely seasoned player list to play inside a neat little box in the first place?

I expect most players in the game to play like most players I've played with in the past because that's the baseline reality I experience.

I could be wrong, this could be the exception. I don't speak from a degree of certainty.

[Servant Caster]

Without us there are multiple others heavily considering making me the master that you would need to dissuade, those are who you need to outline it for. I’m not asking you to convince someone of their alignment, I’m asking you to do more than sit back and fearmonger.

Pedit-
Wasn’t a fan either, but who ever is a fan of Miller claims?

What do you need to get invested in the game?

? I'm not saying that everyone who votes for you is guilty etc...

I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong and end up with egg on my face if you are granted Mastery and shown to be IC and I would happily follow your leadership at that point.

However

if you are shown to be Mafia and I am correct about you, I will be grabbing the town leadership spot and hard-driving Archer's elimination.

[Servant Caster]

And again, there’s one way to test that theory. My point isn’t that everyone saying I should be master is scum, my point is that you keep trying to draw associatives for how Archer and I could be a team without explaining what exactly it is each of us has done to seem scummy. But you are asking for Archer to explain his townread. There’s a double standard I am trying to rectify.

It's not a double-standard because I'm not pushing for either you or archer to be eliminated currently as we are not in that phase of the game.

However Archer is pushing to make you Master so he should be explaining his town-read of you.

[Servant Caster]

I mean, they are in my town reads for a lot of the same reasons I think they would make a good town leader.

The way they have been interacting with other slots feels like they are trying to sort people, and as a plus, a lot of our reads are lining up, so it is easier for me to believe they are genuine reads without ulterior motive.

I also find think that it is more likely for him to be town over Saber or Assassin because they are not so focused on convincing people they should be the master choice based purely on mech. Mech reasons to be the Master choice are super easy to fake.

I liked that they pointed us in the direction of Cabd's post describing how he would suggest town choose a town leader - I trust cabd's thinking in general, so I think that it was pro town to try and get town to consider that angle. I personally had not read that before, and was glad to see it pointed out.

I disagree with a lot of what is written here.

First off I didn't like the way they presented Cabd's post in the postgame of the last FGO. It's designed to look helpful but really it's agenda-based since the ultimate conclusion was "You should pick me to be Master because I'm charismatic" I know he didn't say as much in the post but it's ultimately how it played out.

I don't believe their interaction with other slots has been genuinely sorting in nature. I find a lot of the questions he's asked to be pointless and I feel it's more of a sign of scum posturing/trying to look involved than coming from a place of genuine town curiosity.

Saying that Berserker is more likely than A/S because he is not as focused on Mech is just simply not true. There's no reason for a town player not to be intensely focussed on mech, especially if they truly believe their ability can be rather helpful if used early.

You say a lot of your reads are lining up with Berserker, however he's only expressed three townreads, one of which happens to be yourself. Neither of you have really expressed anything about scum-reads so it's somewhat hard for me to believe you are townreading him on read-sync on such a small number of TRs.

[Servant Caster]

I never said that town would not care about mech. I said that mech is the easy path for scum.
So, i am not scum reading Saber/Assassin because they are interested in mech, but I am town reading berserker because he is not.

Why is the lack of mech-interest AI for you?

It seems to me that it's easier for a scum to completely ignore the mechanical angle of their NP to get to be Master rather than actually faking enthusiasm in terms of their NP.

One of the first things I considered in this game was whether my NP is strong enough for me to charisma my way into getting Master'd. I read my NP and thought about it and it was fairly easy for me to make the decision that it's not strong enough for me to try to become Master'd.

You're saying it's a townie perspective to not care about the mech of your NP, why?

[Servant Caster]

"but I am town reading berserker because he is not."

= I am townreading Berserker because he does not care about Mech.

[Servant Caster]

I am also getting the feeling that you are getting a bit tunneled on me, and I no longer think that having a back and forth with you over this topic will benefit the thread in anyway, and is just taking up our post limit.

Well since Berserker is a serious candidate to be Master'd and him turning as Mafia could have pretty dire consequences for town if we are T/T here, I think it makes sense for us to have this discussion over our differing viewpoints on whether Berserker is town or mafia.

I'm currently at 43/75 posts allocated to me for this game phase which is a bit over half and I would definitely make my posts longer and less back/forthy when I get to the 60s.

As for your other question about why I initially scum-read you; it has to do with your entrance; it felt fake and performative to me:

19 is where you answer your own question about why you wouldn't want to be master'd - I didn't like how you laid out things, it feels to me almost like you want people to town-read you for how much you don't want to be master'd and don't want the town leadership position.

this phrase in particular pinged me:

"Currently looking for someone to come ObvTown for me, so I can vote them lol"

It feels like something that's just pointlessly added on at the end and performative - not an actual thing that people state.. and then the "lol" like why?

You state you don't want to be town leader but your stances throughout the day as it unfolds have been very agenda-y; you don't seem like the type that enjoys deferring to other people.

Your reconsideration on your Saber vote felt very strange to me, vote -> unvote -> then asking a question, it feels like tactical re-consideration rather than read re-consideration. The difference being that I think scum tend to have more likelihood to regret their votes quickly rather than town because scum are considerate of positioning whereas town take more thought imo into making the correct choices. I feel you are making an impulsive vote on Saber and then regretting it.

117 feels like you are trying to get Ego/Beast to be at each other's throats.

I have serious concerns about your "Master Preference";

You began by voting Saber, then unvoting Saber afterwards.

You ask Ego if Ego would like to be Master after Ego had a few townreads thrown at Ego,

You say that Assassin is a better choice for Master over Saber by Mech.

The first time you mention Berserker's name with any kind of read is to say in 247 that you would want him to be master'd - previously the only mention of berserker in your ISO I could find was a question that you asked of him, so it's kind of weirdly unnatural the way you approach his slot for me.

[Servant Caster]

I do want to see a full reads-list from Berserker before he is formally made master for obvious reasons

[Servant Caster]

I also don't think it's wise to rush an end to the day before people more fully participate.

I am very disappointed in the lack of serious effort/playing from Avenger & Rider and the missing 14th Servant has yet to post at all.

[Servant Caster]

I do want to see a full reads-list from Berserker before he is formally made master for obvious reasons

Re-iterating that I want this from Berserker as he is now at 5 votes without self-voting so functionally he is 2 votes away from getting Mastered.




@Ruler, Archer already asked me this and I already answered it so I don't think you've actually read my back and forth with him, which I don't particularly blame you for as it is quite long.

[Servant Caster]

It should be noted hat all 3 of the people pushing for the grail position have been relatively good at being assertive and not very gunshy. I'd be somewhat surprised if any of them turned out to be scum tbh. I think this is just another game where scum have decided to be on the peripheral than to fight for the spot.

I would be surprised if all of the assertive players jostling for the grail are town. I would think in a player list that is probably of decent if not good calibre that at least one baddie would try to go for glory.

[Servant Caster]

@Berserker.

Let's assume you're town. Your townreads are correct.

What do you suppose the scum team is trying to do?

Why have they chosen to not contest and allow you to just waltz into Town-Leadership and take Mastery without really putting up any kind of fight whatsoever?

[Servant Caster]

I’m sure you’ve seen the recent uptick in do nothing and lose scumteams, right Caster?

I wouldn’t be surprised if they pushed for me to get the master because I haven’t spent any time talking about my role. There’s a thought that crossed my mind that if Saber is scum, it’s incredibly likely to find more scum in the “just follow the mechanical strength” group. But besides that point, how often is it scum is actually on the same page in day play?

Pedit-
There is always a need for reevaluation down the line when more information is made available. See the recent MD thread about mind melding, in situations like this where information is limited, it’s things like that which help jump someone up the reads list. If people decide to wagon them, then so be it. I’m not going to shut down people who think differently, and I’m not going to let those at the top coast either.

At the end of the day I want to win this game. If I make a mistake in an early readslist (that was somewhat unpolished), I would obviously be open to hearing about it down the line. But I’d require actual casing, for pretty much everything. We can’t use meta or anything, this is going to come down to who can find scum and case them the best.

I’ll toss this question back at you. If scum were to contest, how exactly would they do that besides the consistent nay saying and critiquing the wagon. Hell, some could even argue having scummier members vote the wagon to try and stunt it’s momentum is a tactic.

Yes I've noticed there's lots of players on this site who don't understand how to play scum and end up getting run over.

If this is the case this game, it really wouldn't matter what I do, we will win the game - however I prefer to assume that the opposition is competent and play assuming they are doing something rather than being fully passive.

If you're right that Archer-Caster-Berserker are all town, one way scum could drive a schism and set up a better D1 for themselves is to try to get me master'd so that when I IC, I push you/Archer for the elimination. I think if scum are unable to get master'd they would want a master who is not going to be able to nail them.

[Servant Caster]

Have you seen anyone shading Saber? As i said before nobody does it.

There was a lot of resistance to Saber as soon as he became the lead wagon

There is no resistance to berserker as far as I can tell other than me and I know I'm town.

[Servant Caster]

quotes

Scum in this situation can promise everything. Once they win elections they are tree stumped anyway, no risk of being killed for lieing. It shouldn't be used as indication.

I agree, which is why I don't claim anything that I can't back up or is extravagant. Second, I don't want to be a miselimination for overpromising and under delivering.

I started to soften on the idea of you being the choice, based on the caginess -- but this feels off to me again :/

It does not feel totally consistent.

For starters "I don't claim anything that I can't back up or is extravagant" - when you already claimed "My NP is one of the strongest in the game" in post 51

And also, the second half does not make sense to me "I don't want to be a miselimination for overpromising and under delivering." In what scenario is this actually a worry? If you "over promise, and under deliver" do you mean that you think we might miselim you AFTER we make you an IC - just because your power does not pay off the way you promise? Or are you saying that if you tell us how great you would be as an IC, then if we don't make you an IC, we would then kill you for not living up to the promise? - Because that also does not make a lot of sense.

Either way, this seems like a non-issue worry to have - so I find it hard to look at it as a genuine worry coming from you

Does anyone have serious objections to Saber getting the boost.

I'd like to move on.

I am not super comfortable making Saber the master.

I am currently leaning Berserker personally.

To summarize:

Servants Alter Ego, Archer, Lancer, Berserker, and Beast

are strongly pure of heart.

Servants Moon Cancer, Caster, and Assassin

I lean towards being good over evil.

Servants Avenger, and not-yet-posted

I have no read on.

Servants Foreigner, Saber, and Rider

I believe are corrupt.

[Servant Caster]

@Berserker

When did you decide you wanted to be Mastered?

Was this before the game began or sometime during the game?

[Servant Caster]

@Archer/Berserker.

I've stated a few reasons for SRing Berserker in response to you in this post: 351

I haven't been as motivated to make a big deal out of this because I feel it's almost inevitable at this point that Berserker will get Master'd and I don't think anyone is even reading what I say other than Berserker/Archer so it feels futile/pointless for me to write out my full feelings about the Berserker slot but I'll do it anyway because I'm quite filled with self-loathing and enjoy doing things that will ultimately be fruitless.

Also on a side-note, I really just wanted to flirt shamelessly with a very charming and handsome town leader type that I could give everything to.

They'd sweep me off my feet with their amazing charisma and peerless vision.

I really hope somebody will become that but it's looking quite grim.

[Servant Caster]

Well, that sounds nice, but wouldn't you prefer to have a handsome gentleman you can dance with, away from prying eyes? Then you'd be able to open your heart to them. Perhaps that man is still waiting out there somewhere.

this would be such a dream

if I only I could be so lucky as to have someone come sweep me off my feet.

just the thought makes my heart flutter.

I really hate being the one playing seriously I just want to dance...

[Servant Caster]

Alas I am not the one you seek,

I am pure and innocent like freshly fallen snow.

You can see through my heart like a crystal lake.

Starlight dancing across a Northern Sky.

[Servant Caster]

It's really unfortunate for me that the people I trust I don't like and the people I like I don't trust.

[Servant Caster]

I’ve tried multiple times to reach out and understand, as well as provided a giant in depth wall of my thoughts on everyone on the player list. I don’t know what else you need. Can you please do more than just complain?

I don't think I've ever complained about you and I'm sorry if you feel that I have.

I suspect you of being mafia, but I have no complaints about the quality of your play.

[Servant Caster]

I probably misphrased.

I just don’t understand what else I can do to show you before the mod does and it’s frustrating. I don’t even fully understand your reasoning, and I want it out so people have it to analyze as you are one of the main people against my wagon. Without it out there, there’s a possibility you can come under suspicion down the line for being so vague.


I probably misphrased. I just don’t understand what else I can do to show you before the mod does and it’s frustrating. I don’t even fully understand your reasoning, and I want it out so people have it to analyze as you are one of the main people against my wagon. Without it out there, there’s a possibility you can come under suspicion down the line for being so vague.

I already said I will write out all my thoughts about your slot before the hammer.

it just takes a while because there's a lot there and it's not something I can write out in like twenty minutes or so.

I guess you are right that I should re-consider my views on your alignment but it just feels wrong to me for the game state to be such that there's really no one resisting you or pushing for an alternative other than myself and I know I'm town so it makes me feel very bleh about it all.

Also the game dynamics are such that my suspicion of you won't really cause you to be eliminated so I have even less incentive to change my mind since I won't feel bad about pushing a mis-flip.

[Servant Caster]

I guess I would feel very silly if after all this you were just town and I'm the only dumb-dumb who doesn't see it?

I honestly don't know which result I would like better when you get mastered. Either I am very wrong or this game is very lost.

[Servant Caster]

I just don’t understand what else I can do to show you before the mod does and it’s frustrating.

Honestly in this type of game it is literally impossible imo for you to show me this so you shouldn't be fustrated.

A town player trying to get Master'd will do the same thing as a scum player trying to get Master'd - the playstyle is practically indistinguishable in my opinion from a motivation/method perspective. Regardless of your alignment you will be making the moves that you believe will lead to votes on you giving you Mastery over this game.

For example your request of me, asking me to show you my case/reasoning on why you're scum before you are hammered for master.

On first level thinking it makes little sense for Scum!you to ask me to case you before you get master'd - after you get master'd and flipped as scum, my case won't really matter.

If anything you are helping me build my town-cred for when you flip as scum and if my case is convincing you might not become master, so why even ask me for such a case?

On second level thinking you would be asking me for this in order to win me over, to make me think you can't be scum and asking me for this - but would you even need to do this in this game state?

On a strategic you could be trying to exhaust me, to make me commit more effort into the game before slamming the door and becoming master despite my best efforts - to demoralize me so I have less energy for what comes next.

Honestly I hope you're just town because I don't want to think so much.

[Servant Caster]

It's really unfortunate for me that the people I trust I don't like and the people I like I don't trust.

That just won't do. What will it take for me to be both unlikable AND untrustworthy?

Please no,

Foreigner is quite enough on his own already :<

[Servant Caster]

I guess I would feel very silly if after all this you were just town and I'm the only dumb-dumb who doesn't see it?

I honestly don't know which result I would like better when you get mastered. Either I am very wrong or this game is very lost.

caster do you want to master beast or lancer?

Lancer says he doesn't want it and I'm not sure he would make a good leader even if he does IC.

Beast isn't trusted as much and I don't think he gets along with as many people.

Even though I do suspect Berserker to a large degree I guess it feels nice to have that weight lifted off my chest so I can know whether I'm right?

Honestly if Berserker is mafia he deserves to get this Mastery and I can't express how disappointed I am that nobody on townside really gave him much of a fight for it.

@Berserker do you want me to finish writing your case? It's already quite long.

[Servant Caster]

I am a sucker for putting myself through unnecessary suffering and I hope if you do flip mafia that this will buy me a ticket out of this game early so I won't have to suffer any longer.

[Servant Caster]

It's less than I wanted to write but I am a bit tired and I don't want anyone to wait too much on me.

I guess I am fine with Berserker being mastered at the end of it all :/ I just really hope he's town.

Spoiler: Crazy Things that Go On in My Head

The Initial Scum-Read:

17: I really hate this type of comment. It's the type of "helpful" strategy advice that is tailored to be insightful/strategically pro-town yet really quite agenda-y.

I think it's possible that I have really been jaded by "appeal to authority" type approaches to pushing an agenda from certain news outlets so when someone says this I feel they are being somewhat duplicitous.

On a strategic level I don't agree with the idea of picking someone based on their "charisma" or "thread-control" level;

On the simplest level you can flip this 180 degrees and look at it from the scum point of view - if you are a highly charismatic player would you want to end up getting master'd if you can set your partners up with buff'd up roles and pin the blame on the town? I know if I were holding a red role pm I would definitely try to get mastered. Being Charismatic Scum is

difficult

, it takes quite a bit of effort to continue to weave the narrative. Sure you can fool the town for a day or two easily but it gets much harder as the days go on.

I find it much more natural and believable for a player to think about getting Master'd in terms of mechanically whether their NP can make a real difference in the game than whether they would be highly charismatic/townlead -> townleaders tend to be loud and influential even if they do not receive the IC card. Later he expands on his Appeal to Cabd by claiming that he’s the only suitable candidate in 50. So he creates the criteria, then he fulfills it himself – I just don’t feel this is genuinely being helpful – it’s more agenda-based setting yourself up.

Lastly in terms of pro-townness - I'm not sure it's as important to be a town leader in terms of getting people to work together as it is to be a good scum-hunter. You can foster thread-health / getting the team on the same page when you are not IC'd - good ideas are clearly good. However it's not as clear-cut what type of scum-read you have as it's less obvious what type of scum-hunting is genuine and what type of scum-hunting is not. Having an IC that is good at scum-hunting is pretty important in my opinion and I don't think Berserker or anyone has made claims that they have better than average read-rate and that's very disappointing to me.

23 This post pinged me because it felt a bit like TMI.

"make you town leader" seems to imply that giving the master to Assassin would end up with Assassin as town leader, this is something that Berserker can't know without knowing what Assassin's alignment actually is.

The first reaction I had when I read Assassin's post was to think about whether this is likely to be a town approach or a scum approach for a thread opening, it's something that I still don't really think I have a good answer one way or the other, it just feels weird to me that Berserker immediately leaps to the "this is not a good reason to make you town leader" from a strategic point of view instead of actually thinking about whether Assassin is scum trying to get Master'd on mech,.

Expanding Beyond

When I thought about how to figure out the difference between a scum versus a town trying to become mastered, I thought about how I would go about getting mastered if I was to be holding a red role pm. I feel that Berserker's play is closest to the way I would've done it. Not too hard, not too soft. Subtle yet firm, don't insist on getting master'd early, but gather the townreads and let the decision eventually turn to me in a natural kind of way.
Out of the three contenders, I feel his path was the most

sophisticated

with tactical and strategic thought behind how he planned this day to play out – whereas Assassin/Saber were more blunt about the mechanical side, I don’t think either of them made a sustained effort or really thought much before-hand about how to get across the finish line.

When I asked him when he decided he wanted to become Master, his response 542 was simply that he thought he had no choice when he looked around and nobody else was qualified in his opinion.
I am in agreement with this sentiment – of all the players vying for mastery, none really can hold a candle to Berserker, it is unfortunately not a game where we have multiple attractive candidates.

Whether this is because the entire scum team felt they could not match him, or because they made a tactical decision to simply not try for it and let themselves get POE’d out of the game? I really can’t tell, but if this is a game where Berserker!Scum was coronated without resistance while the entirety of the town had not a single player put forth an effort that could have won the day, I’m not sure how I will feel about that tomorrow - I might not have it in me to try much more.


When I read through your iso in retrospect and in realtime, I keep getting the feeling that you don’t have any takes that are “unsafe” or really display thinking that’s willing to ro the boat. You admit you are mostly a POE player so it makes sense for you to adopt this style of play where you build ties with allies who townread you but scum you would also be doing this in order to glide through and pocket allies. I guess this is just part of who you are naturally and that’s why you’ve managed to attract so much support but I can’t really see what part of your ISO makes me stop and think "Berserker is definitely town" - and I don't really know what to make of this game state where everyone seems to townread you and be ok with pushing your coronation through.

I confess I do tend to be more paranoid of people who treat me well, you’ve been most kind and generous to me, probably more so than I deserve. The more I think about it, the more I hope you are just town so I can kick my shoes off and let you carry me for the rest of the game.

[Servant Caster]

caster kind of ignored my reach out though

Sorry I was getting the case written up for Berserker and I didn't have the spoons to commit any more mental energy to this game.

What would you like to talk about?

[Servant Caster]

I've never been happier to be wrong *dances*

[Servant Caster]

Caster, I would like you to do a hard reset and give me a few scum picks when you are up.

Still waiting on Shielder's finished catchup as well as the others to chime in tomorrow.

Can I just flirt with you and poke your massive pecs instead ~.~

[Servant Caster]

I'm really quite confused why the scum team decided to play this way.

like it would be a real shame if the entire scum team was in the awol section of the game.

I was really looking foward to playing this >.<

[Servant Caster]

There's a 0% chance scum don't have tons of fun toys. It's why we crush them with day play.

This line is so hot

Please let me be your sword.

Your enemies are my enemies from this day till the last day.

I just want you to carry me because I'm silly and stupid and you're better than I deserve <3

[Servant Caster]

I should probably be responsible and read and figure things out but I'm just sooo

I don't even know how to describe this emotion.

I want to flirt and dance and sing and be happy.

I'll probably sit down and actually try to put some coherent words together.

just let me be happy for this weekend

<3

[Servant Caster]

It almost feels like Saber is trying to get townread by claiming a really useless and anti-town NP, I can't really understand how anyone would think this type of NP is strong?

If a TvT got toxic/heated we could just tell the two players to take a 24 hour break? Why would we even use an NP it's just kind of crazy.

[Servant Caster]

I have a lot of stupid paranoid thoughts in my head and I kind of just want to shut up and follow your lead and hope we kill the bad people because I think you have a better grasp on this game than I do.

The game feels too easy right now and I just kind of hope it really is that easy and it probably just is?

[Servant Caster]

like if you want my full thoughts on Saber I can write them up but I don't want to confuse the issue anymore.

If you think executing Saber for D1 is the best choice I am more than happy to follow your lead.

[Servant Caster]

What are your thoughts on Moon Cancer? You don't seem to have spoken about them at all.

They have eleven posts and none of them are very good?

Just skimming over its ISO it looks pretty bleh and not very involved in the game.

Could be lazy scum, could be lazy town. I don't like how it doesn't really justify it's reasoning for several votes/comments, transition from berserker is terrible to voting for berserker is absent.

I think it's a fine flip and probably better odds than random to flip scum.

[Servant Caster]

I have promised my vote to Berserker and I will follow him wherever he goes <3

[Servant Caster]

Since we have a shared deadline I would like to get the flip done before we are at 4 days so we have proper time to process the flip.

[Servant Caster]

Words can't describe how sad I am that I won't get to flirt with Notsci.



Also what's going on I haven't caught up yet

[Servant Caster]

VOTE: Avenger

I think this is what Notsci would've wanted from the post he slipped on

[Servant Caster]

VOTE: Moon Cancer

[Servant Caster]

caster: reaction to the gladiate was nonexistent, used notscience's post as basis for vote and avoided saying literally anything else about the gladiate

I was not online during the gladiate

when I logged on the gladiate was over.

[Servant Caster]

What is this vote? Caster had no earlier concerns about Moon but jumped in as soon as saw that Moon is going to die.

another lie

if you're town you should really learn how to read posts

[Servant Caster]

This was my reply to Alter Ego when they questioned me about Moon Cancer. I was very fine with voting the slot and felt it was fairly good odds to flip scum but I had promised my vote to Berserker. I then went to sleep. When I logged on the gladiate was over, Berserker was replaced and instead of reading 8 pages of people yelling at Foreigner I just read what Notty's last post was and it was an OK to vote for the person I thought was pretty susp before I fell went to bed so I voted Moon Cancer.

What are your thoughts on Moon Cancer? You don't seem to have spoken about them at all.

They have eleven posts and none of them are very good?

Just skimming over its ISO it looks pretty bleh and not very involved in the game.

Could be lazy scum, could be lazy town. I don't like how it doesn't really justify it's reasoning for several votes/comments, transition from berserker is terrible to voting for berserker is absent.

I think it's a fine flip and probably better odds than random to flip scum.

I have promised my vote to Berserker and I will follow him wherever he goes <3

Since we have a shared deadline I would like to get the flip done before we are at 4 days so we have proper time to process the flip.

[Servant Caster]

I must've forgotten what actually happened since I was sleepy when I woke up.

I did vote avenger, that is what notty would've wanted between the two of them.

[Servant Caster]

Yeah, I clocked that too foreigner. We will deal with them next flip.

^ this is the post I was referring to where Notty said he wanted Avenger dead on next flip.

[Servant Caster]

Caster, it's been a week since day 1 started. Do you have reads?

I think we just keep killing the people who don't seem to care because I think the scum team might be demotivated and barely playing. The MC flip would imply this.

You can pick which ones you would like to go after.

My current order list is:

Towniest
Berserker, Alter Ego, Ruler, Shielder,
Beast, Foreigner, Lancer, Archer
Assassin,
Saber, Avenger
Rider
Scummiest

[Servant Caster]

Revising this:

Towniest

Berserker, Alter Ego, Ruler, Shielder,
Beast, Foreigner, Lancer, Archer
Assassin, Rider
Saber, Avenger

Scummiest

I didn't remember anything rider posted but then re-reading the ISO I thought 855 was a pretty decent effort-ish.

Maybe I need to look in the townblock earlier than I thought I would have to.

[Servant Caster]

You realize that would probably mean killing you at this point?

I'm pretty sure I've cared/put more into this game than most playing have.

I've stepped back when I felt it was better for thread health and to let Berserker run things.

If I were scum I wouldn't be playing support. I usually just play mid solo.

[Servant Caster]

I loved Caster's energy in the first phase, where she seemed truly committed to her read of Berserker, even if it was wrong. Here's everything she's done since then:

Spoiler:

I've never been happier to be wrong *dances*

Caster, I would like you to do a hard reset and give me a few scum picks when you are up.

Still waiting on Shielder's finished catchup as well as the others to chime in tomorrow.

Can I just flirt with you and poke your massive pecs instead ~.~

I'm really quite confused why the scum team decided to play this way.

like it would be a real shame if the entire scum team was in the awol section of the game.

I was really looking foward to playing this >.<

There's a 0% chance scum don't have tons of fun toys. It's why we crush them with day play.

This line is so hot

Please let me be your sword.

Your enemies are my enemies from this day till the last day.

I just want you to carry me because I'm silly and stupid and you're better than I deserve <3

I should probably be responsible and read and figure things out but I'm just sooo

I don't even know how to describe this emotion.

I want to flirt and dance and sing and be happy.

I'll probably sit down and actually try to put some coherent words together.

just let me be happy for this weekend

<3

It almost feels like Saber is trying to get townread by claiming a really useless and anti-town NP, I can't really understand how anyone would think this type of NP is strong?

If a TvT got toxic/heated we could just tell the two players to take a 24 hour break? Why would we even use an NP it's just kind of crazy.

I have a lot of stupid paranoid thoughts in my head and I kind of just want to shut up and follow your lead and hope we kill the bad people because I think you have a better grasp on this game than I do.

The game feels too easy right now and I just kind of hope it really is that easy and it probably just is?

like if you want my full thoughts on Saber I can write them up but I don't want to confuse the issue anymore.

If you think executing Saber for D1 is the best choice I am more than happy to follow your lead.

What are your thoughts on Moon Cancer? You don't seem to have spoken about them at all.

They have eleven posts and none of them are very good?

Just skimming over its ISO it looks pretty bleh and not very involved in the game.

Could be lazy scum, could be lazy town. I don't like how it doesn't really justify it's reasoning for several votes/comments, transition from berserker is terrible to voting for berserker is absent.

I think it's a fine flip and probably better odds than random to flip scum.

I have promised my vote to Berserker and I will follow him wherever he goes <3

Since we have a shared deadline I would like to get the flip done before we are at 4 days so we have proper time to process the flip.

Words can't describe how sad I am that I won't get to flirt with Notsci.



Also what's going on I haven't caught up yet

VOTE: Avenger

I think this is what Notsci would've wanted from the post he slipped on

VOTE: Moon Cancer

caster: reaction to the gladiate was nonexistent, used notscience's post as basis for vote and avoided saying literally anything else about the gladiate

I was not online during the gladiate

when I logged on the gladiate was over.

What is this vote? Caster had no earlier concerns about Moon but jumped in as soon as saw that Moon is going to die.

another lie

if you're town you should really learn how to read posts

This was my reply to Alter Ego when they questioned me about Moon Cancer. I was very fine with voting the slot and felt it was fairly good odds to flip scum but I had promised my vote to Berserker. I then went to sleep. When I logged on the gladiate was over, Berserker was replaced and instead of reading 8 pages of people yelling at Foreigner I just read what Notty's last post was and it was an OK to vote for the person I thought was pretty susp before I fell went to bed so I voted Moon Cancer.

What are your thoughts on Moon Cancer? You don't seem to have spoken about them at all.

They have eleven posts and none of them are very good?

Just skimming over its ISO it looks pretty bleh and not very involved in the game.

Could be lazy scum, could be lazy town. I don't like how it doesn't really justify it's reasoning for several votes/comments, transition from berserker is terrible to voting for berserker is absent.

I think it's a fine flip and probably better odds than random to flip scum.

I have promised my vote to Berserker and I will follow him wherever he goes <3

Since we have a shared deadline I would like to get the flip done before we are at 4 days so we have proper time to process the flip.

I must've forgotten what actually happened since I was sleepy when I woke up.

I did vote avenger, that is what notty would've wanted between the two of them.

Yeah, I clocked that too foreigner. We will deal with them next flip.

^ this is the post I was referring to where Notty said he wanted Avenger dead on next flip.

Caster, it's been a week since day 1 started. Do you have reads?

I think we just keep killing the people who don't seem to care because I think the scum team might be demotivated and barely playing. The MC flip would imply this.

You can pick which ones you would like to go after.

My current order list is:

Towniest
Berserker, Alter Ego, Ruler, Shielder,
Beast, Foreigner, Lancer, Archer
Assassin,
Saber, Avenger
Rider
Scummiest

Revising this:

Towniest

Berserker, Alter Ego, Ruler, Shielder,
Beast, Foreigner, Lancer, Archer
Assassin, Rider
Saber, Avenger

Scummiest

I didn't remember anything rider posted but then re-reading the ISO I thought 855 was a pretty decent effort-ish.

Maybe I need to look in the townblock earlier than I thought I would have to.

You realize that would probably mean killing you at this point?

I'm pretty sure I've cared/put more into this game than most playing have.

I've stepped back when I felt it was better for thread health and to let Berserker run things.

If I were scum I wouldn't be playing support. I usually just play mid solo.

This leaves me to ask: Where's the solving? For the most part she was exclusively leaning on notscience until he altslipped. I find it problematic now how her view of the game in the first phase had been mostly narrow but on being proven wrong there was no effort to re-evaluate or broaden her view. She never mentioned Moon Cancer until I asked about them, agreed they were scummy, but opted to lean on notscience and his decision instead. Since then the most we've gotten is a naked readslist.

Her trajectory on Saber has taken a complete reversal since the first phase and I've no real idea why aside from the fact that Saber is a popular scumread now. I also find her read on Rider to be quite lazy, she had him placed at the bottom presumably because he's less active and "doesn't seem to care", but moved him up slightly because of his "effortful" wallpost. This bothers me because I don't think "effort" in and of itself is an indication of towniness, and it makes no effort to comment on the actual

content

of his wall or of any of his posts. For my part I feel as though Rider has been consistently scumhunting with his posts even if his input is sporadic, and he was one of the earliest pushers of Moon Cancer when there was still resistance to that wagon, and I give him credit for that. By contrast, Caster looks like she's barely going through the motions at this point.

VOTE: Caster

I said I was stepping back from the game to let him run things.

I'm not going to try to influence things when I'm obviously off.

You should think about my motivations and my play rather than and whether it makes sense for scum!me to play in such a manner.

(1) Does it make sense for scum me to disappear in the elimination phase when the IC says they hard TR me? Why would I not want to influence him in the wrong direction if I am scum?

(2) Does it make sense for scum me to not fight for being master but instead fight the person who has no real opposition?

I don't deny that I haven't really scum-hunted very much post Berserker flip,

There's something demotivating about spending so much energy on a game and being utterly wrong.

I told you I wanted to just kick off my shoes and be carried. That's still true.

I don't have trouble faking scum-hunting when I'm mafia. It's actually fairly trivial and easy for me to do. I have done everything in this game because I believe it is in the best interests of our town. If you disagree you can feel free to push through this mis-elim, that is fine with me.

[Servant Caster]

@caster can you give thoughts/reaction to avenger's gladiate now, since you're here?

I think it was stupid and pointless and I can't imagine a scum team would think it's a good idea.

It might be a desperation act from a scumbag?

I don't think gladiates are overtly townie, if anything they are kind of anti-town.

The times I see scum use gladiates, it's usually to claim they get some kind of bonus for winning a gladiate and then they gladiate their partner who was going to be run up anyway for town cred. That's the one time I've seen a scum use a gladiate.

I don't understand why avenger gladiated, it's just somewhat bizarre to me.

It played out the way one would expect it to play out.

[Servant Caster]

just gonna say... I think this conversation did more to make me scumread Ruler than anything else this game. weird focus on me/alter who I think are two of the towniest slots in the game, for pushing avenger who clearly made either a scum-motivated or suboptimal play. no comment on any of the numerous other slots who had a way scummier reaction to the gladiate; no comment on the moon cancer wagon which alter and I were both pushing pretty hard.

?

Ruler is very town imo.

Mastina!town and Mastina!scum look nothing alike.

[Servant Caster]

VOTE: Saber
Well, that is easy. Thanks for claiming scum.

The last, and only, specific reason to scumread Alter came from post 238. I don't find it convincing. How has that read matured over time and what specific posts can you point to as to support your conclusions?

That read has not changed. It is fully based on the early posts on Alter Ego having more evasive words in their posts than any normal townie. And no post of Alter Ego after that time has caused me to reconsider.

I think we have gotten everything we could have before the first elimination. We should move on.

^

Do we have thoughts on whether Moon Cancer posts this about Saber!Scum?

[Servant Caster]

when it was just mastina making weird takes, I was fine townreading that slot. a second person with takes that are really really far off from consensus seems too much of a coincidence.

Mastina Town and Mastina Scum sound nothing alike

[Servant Caster]

how does having takes that are off consensus make you think they are scum?

if they are widely townread and want to deepwolf they should be making consensus takes and avoiding rocking the boat.

[Servant Caster]

you being unable to understand their thoughts doesn't mean they are scum.

Mastina's role pm didn't change...

[Servant Caster]

sure let's talk about your read of me instead of Mastina's meta divergence.

[Servant Caster]

I am?

I thought you had me as top scumpick and favored elimination today...

[Servant Caster]

ok what do you want to pressure me to do?

[Servant Caster]

I just wanted to flirt and be carried tho :<

Fine I'll write up some thoughts but under protest because the last thing this thread needs is more of my delusional ramblings :>

[Servant Caster]

I don't think Foreigner was that widely scum-read but I do agree that it doesn't make any sense for a townie to think "Oh I'm being ignored? Let me hijack the thread with a Gladiate, THAT will get people to listen to me"

His gladiate doesn't make sense from either town or scum so it is NAI.

[Servant Caster]

I think Saber might be the best elim here.

A lot of what they said today doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Servant Caster]

If there's some reward for doing the gladiate, it makes sense to target MC.

If there's a loyal/disloyal aspect, it also makes sense to target MC.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Sorry. I missed this.

I am not sure how it's unclear so forgive me if I don't make this clearer.

If Avenger got a bonus for gladiating, going with the consensus target makes sense.

If Avenger could tell the alignment of the target by the gladiate, it make sense to go with MC.

I don't get this explanation at all.

What does it even mean to tell the alignment of someone you are gladiating? You expect the gladiate to give him a result?

What's going to be more relevant is how people positioned themselves around Moon Cancer. Given the strength of his role I suspect that scumteam didn't want to lose him right away and that was why he was so difficult to flip.

I agree.

My current theory is that scum wanted to preserve all avaliable miseliminations for later.

1) I get threatened for being weird.
2) Foreigner for being new.
3) Avenger for arrogance.

They hammer Avenger for the gladiate. Then listen to his read on Foreigner. Then come after me.

It's a strong chain that might save Moon.

I don't think this is the type of scum team we are against and also they don't actually have any names attached, it feels like something they made up.

What's going to be more relevant is how people positioned themselves around Moon Cancer. Given the strength of his role I suspect that scumteam didn't want to lose him right away and that was why he was so difficult to flip.

I agree.

My current theory is that scum wanted to preserve all avaliable miseliminations for later.

1) I get threatened for being weird.
2) Foreigner for being new.
3) Avenger for arrogance.

They hammer Avenger for the gladiate. Then listen to his read on Foreigner. Then come after me.

It's a strong chain that might save Moon.

With 14 players alive, it takes 8 votes to burn a servant.

Avenger (6): Lancer, Foreigner, Alter Ego, Saber, Archer, Caster
Foreigner (2): Ruler, Avenger


Deadline: (expired on 2021-07-12 00:17:51)


Page Usage: 20/42

Who are you implying is scum voting Avenger, then?

I didn't look at the votes with my theory. It could be non voters at the end looking to capitalize. There's no list there. Eliminate Saber and Foreigner bc my theory.

That leaves Lancer Alter Archer and Caster plus unvoters.

Caster felt the most subdued out of the four. So I guess them. When we get to emotional reading, I am garbage but I would suggest one of the four if not two.

@Archer, I was spitballing a theory to get my reads put together. I need to clarify that to myself.

This explanation feels half-baked as if they didn't expect to actually flesh out their theory with actual names.

[Servant Caster]

For what reason?

I want to see what type of game state we are actually playing in. Specifically I want to know if Scum contested the Master at all or if they decided very early that none of them would be trying for it.

Here are all the things I didn't like about Saber:

I want to be the master. My strength is in the early game and I don't particularly like my noble phantasm.

I don't think this is a sensible description of their NP, which as I understand is some kind of thread silencer that prevents a slot from talking? I don't see the use of it. Them trying to over-sell it as the best thing since sliced bread because it can shut down toxic 1v1s is just ???? to me. We can do the same thing by just threatening the toxic 1v1ers with a policy elim if it ever becomes too much. We don't need a NP activation, if anything this NP is utterly useless and I have no idea why they would think it's around the same power level as a cop shot.

Using mine right away is better than using it later.

This is the line that I originally liked from Saber, I thought the thinking about when to use the NP felt town to me.

However now that Saber has claimed and their NP is like pretty useless, I don't see why Saber would want to

use it right away.

I find it really difficult to believe they were excited about using this NP.

Also another important thing is being a thread leader/town leader. something that the IC really has to do a good job on to boost our odds. From Saber's play throughout the game, I just don't believe they are qualified to be in this position and I don't see why they would volunteer.

[Servant Caster]

Do you have thoughts on it?

I think it's more likely to be a bus-vote that he thought was evident rather than pushing for a mis-elim.

[Servant Caster]

I think you're capable of more as town and the fact that I haven't seen it is what concerns me. The self-defense that you "wouldn't play like this" as scum are just WIFOM. The question is not whether you could play differently, it's whether your behavior makes more sense from scum or town. And right now I'm not seeing much town.

why would it not make sense for town!me to take a step back when I'm one of the louder voices and have been shown to be wrong?

I'd like to think I'm at least a bit capable of being self-aware and caring more about winning the game for town rather than just liking to hear my own voice.

[Servant Caster]

VOTE: Saber

Let's get going.

If this flips scum I think Beast/Avenger final 2 ?

[Servant Caster]

I was going over Beast's ISO because I was reviewing what the Saber voters were doing.

Like I don't understand this:

Which post do you think I was talking about that shielder referenced? Do you know why it bothered me?

This question is open to the general public as well.

Yes, I am deeply suspicious of all their posts. They are very suspicious and I suspect them.

Yeah, her simultaneously being aware and unaware of what's going on in recent times seems too convenient for me. Good catch.

Yes, good catch AE, Berserker. I'm really impressed.

Why does Beast say this about someone who according to him he is informed of as being innocent? It feels like some made up bullshit to me.

[Servant Caster]

actually scratch that this is just him being sarcastic?

>.>

my memory is really not great this game :<

[Servant Caster]

idk, I expected them to leave the slot alive simply because the reads coming from it were bad. First the slot hard defended moon, then the slot hard defended Saber. Seems like the person to keep alive to me.

that's kind of what Mastina does when she is town, her hardest townreads are usually scum

[Servant Caster]

I think this has the best chance of flipping scum here:

VOTE: Beast

[Servant Caster]

Spoiler: Vote Counts

With 14 players alive, it will take 8 votes to burn a servant.

Foreigner (4): Avenger, Beast, Ruler, Moon Cancer
Saber (4): Alter Ego, Rider, Lancer, Archer
Moon Cancer (2): Foreigner, Saber

Deadline: (expired on 2021-07-12 00:17:51)


Page Usage: 7/42

With 14 players alive, it will take 8 votes to burn a servant.

Foreigner (4): Avenger, Beast, Ruler, Moon Cancer
Saber (4): Alter Ego, Rider, Lancer, Archer
Moon Cancer (2): Foreigner, Saber

Deadline: (expired on 2021-07-12 00:17:51)


Page Usage: 8/42

With 14 players alive, it will take 8 votes to burn a servant.

Saber (6): Alter Ego, Rider, Lancer, Archer, Moon Cancer, Shielder
Foreigner (3): Avenger, Beast, Ruler
Moon Cancer (2): Foreigner, Saber

Deadline: (expired on 2021-07-12 00:17:51)


Page Usage: 9/42

With 14 players alive, it will take 8 votes to burn a servant.

Saber (4): Alter Ego, Rider, Archer, Moon Cancer
Foreigner (3): Avenger, Beast, Ruler
Moon Cancer (3): Foreigner, Saber, Lancer

Deadline: (expired on 2021-07-12 00:17:51)


Page Usage: 12/42

I have a hard time believing that every wagon in early D1 was on scum, which would be kind of crazy for a game state.

[Servant Caster]

Notsci said Foreigner was the scum counterwagon and I miss him

[Servant Caster]

I would be happy with an Avenger or Beast flip at this moment in time.

[Servant Caster]

Maybe the scum have some kind of ability that allows them a bonus NK if they know the name of the character

that would explain the double kill

[Servant Caster]

What reason do people have for suspecting Beast?

I don't believe his informed role claim.

He supported Saber and tried to push it through fairly early.

Fairly shallow reads throughout the game - not a lot of agency during the elimination phase from what I can remember.

[Servant Caster]

I'm tempted to support Archer though on Foreigner.

My thoughts about Foreigner were that it seemed townie that he kept trying to hit me with random made up lies but that thing he said about Saber catching Moon Cancer does seem awful in retrospect.

[Servant Caster]

With 4 scum in a 14 player game, I'm not seeing why one informed town clear is unbelievable?

In terms of game design I don't like how it interacts with Master Election.

It'd be like putting Masons in a game with a Master Election - it's inelegant.

Also the timing of the claim doesn't make a lot of sense to me, if I remember correctly, Shielder wasn't really in any danger when Beast claimed this?

[Servant Caster]

VOTE: Foreigner

Archer has convinced me <3

[Servant Caster]

I am the Queen of Logical Fallacies

[Servant Caster]

Him and Saber catching Moon Caster*
FTFY

?

The role is Moon Cancer.

[Servant Caster]

VOTE: Avenger

Hijacking the thread when there's a uniform townblock is just a scumclaim. Scum want to take over against a unified town block unless they express doubt first.

I would want specific proof of him trying to save Moon Cancer before I determined that was the motive or not. I wouldn't need much given the optimal strategies I have laid out.

If there's some reward for doing the gladiate, it makes sense to target MC.

If there's a loyal/disloyal aspect, it also makes sense to target MC.

I'm trying to understand this post,

does anyone know what she's trying to say about "specific proof of him trying to save moon cancer?"

is she saying that Avenger is going to flip scum but she won't move on to push MC next because she wants more proof?

[Servant Caster]

ok but why would she be worried about needing proof of the theory if Avenger is going to flip town? I'd think she'd only need proof if she is worried Avenger flips red and we go on and kill MC next?

[Servant Caster]

If this really is Avenger/Foreigner as last two scum that would be pretty funny

[Servant Caster]

I don't think it's a vig shot,

Shielder defintely doesn't make sense and Ruler was townread by everyone except Archer?

I think my guess about scum being able to do an extra kill if they know your flavor/character name would make sense since Cabd did say it would be more important this go around.

[Servant Caster]

VOTE: Avenger

[Servant Caster]

I think that was my guess first.. >.>

great minds think alike <3

[Servant Caster]

I ended up with a town read there as well before the night ended -- decided that scum would not actually hard defend their partner to the lengths of self voting.

I think that the name thing is possible tho.

ok so there's basically nobody who would vig Ruler, hence it's either a scum bonus kill or something really funky?

[Servant Caster]

A night of sleep and a fresh look at my reads.
Servant Ruler gave great reasons for many people. Ruler is terribly wrong on Ego, and the reasons for the reads on Ego, Rider and Lancer are too weak for me.
With these three, Saber, Foreigner and Alter Ego the rest of my reads indeed flipped. My reason to scumread Berserker was not as good as I thought yesterday. Caster looks more and more like a townie stumbling in the dark. Ruler is conditional on Saber and Foreigner being scum, but I believe that the POE of {Alter Ego, Foreigner, Saber} has three scum. That obviously leaves one scum but I am sure we can find that one eventually.

I think rule of 3 says there should only be one scum in this list ?

[Servant Caster]

I can see foreigner thinking that Beast would be higher NK priority than Shielder despite the exact opposite being true.

[Servant Caster]

Self-Modification EX ~ Once during the game, at night, you can use this skill. When you do, ALL killing actions in the game, including the factional kill, will be redirected towards you. For each kill you absorb in this fashion, should you live, you will gain an additional usage of "Domina Coronam: Ten Crowns D"

Actually does this ability make sense if there isn't a vig in the game?

[Servant Caster]

I role-blocked Assassin last night so he should be clear as long as the last scum is not some kind of strongman

[Servant Caster]

I am clearly the better looking roleblocker

[Servant Caster]

I confirm it was me.

VOTE: foreigner
This is flipping scum.

The reason I gladiator here is because I do that read Moon as scum.
Sabre may be lying but given the roles, they too have 1 role that benefits scum and town, and 1 anti scum (I'll find it hard to believe that scum can power up their own NP).

foreigner has been sitting in the back, asking why I'm not at E1 while still not voting me there? Just shading instead of actually reading and actually happy where the votes are going.

There's scum within me and foreigner 100% of the time here.
As I said, I also have an anti scum role which can be proven when I like. I won't be sharing it today though unless it becomes beneficial.

This post would be hilarious if Avenger is actually the last baddie <3

[Servant Caster]

Avenger being last scum would be the best comic value and make this possibly one of the most suicidal scum teams ever assembled.

I want this to be true ^,^

[Servant Caster]

VOTE: Avenger

E-1

*Fingers Crossed*

^,^

[Servant Caster]

Now that I'm cleared and it probably doesn't matter, in case I do die, I gave my charm to Alter (D1)... which means roleblocking him won't clear him etc (don't do it). My flip will make it clear what it does.

I'll take a look at rider/avenger's isos at some point.

did you do anything last night?

I am sorry I blocked you but if you didn't actually have any actions I guess it didn't matter except to clear you

@.@

[Servant Caster]

I can confirm receipt of the charm, although it says it blocks a "negative status debuff", which I don't think applies to roleblocks. (Have the been any negative or positive status effects this game?) Regardless, clearing one more person still should be a win.

I don't really think the way Foreigner went after Avenger is at all likely to be teamed, to be honest. It's somewhat puzzling why he just laid down and died yesterday rather than claiming but I assume he just didn't want to try, I doubt it was a tactical planking to save Avenger.

In my experience with Kerset, he doesn't try very hard as Mafia ;_;

[Servant Caster]

This is the End

[Servant Caster]

Are we like waiting for something?

[Servant Caster]

you should do it before the game ends

do the shiny ^,^

[Servant Caster]

Last Pass.


Mech:

Berserker - Town Cleared IC
Lancer - Friendly Neighbor
Caster - Cleared by Beast (Unless Redirector?)
Assassin - Cleared by Caster RB (Unless Strongman or Ascetic?)


Play:

Alter Ego - Townie by Play
Beast - Probably wouldn't be clearing people if scum?
Rider - Townie by Play

>>
Avenger - Feels like has given up Scum.


Anything I'm missing?

[Servant Caster]

@Caster: just making sure, but you aren't Mrs. Crane yeah?

I am not Mrs. Crane.

Who is Mrs. Crane?

I performed a night action on Assassin last night, it worked so he is not Ascetic.

Uh I don't really know what to do now except I guess re-read?

I'm going to be really impressed with whoever the last scum is

[Servant Caster]

I feel very strongly that Alter Ego isn't scum this game.

Idk. At this point, I can't say I have an issue with the plan to eliminate Rider + Beast to end the game.


I feel very strongly that Alter Ego isn't scum this game.Idk. At this point, I can't say I have an issue with the plan to eliminate Rider + Beast to end the game.

?

I don't understand how you can town-read someone more than yourself?

You have a role pm that states what role you have...

[Servant Caster]

I can confirm that Zerker was very apathetic in the hood with me and it felt like he didn't really give a shit.


He didn't tell me he was in a hood with anyone else.

I have some thoughts about who I want between the three suspects but I'm not ready to post them yet and I'd like them to continue to joust between each other for who they want to eliminate.

[Servant Caster]

Zerker's favorite guess for last scum was Rider but he never really elaborated on that scumread.

[Servant Caster]

I'm pretty sure Lancer is the strongest clear mechanically.

Kind of want to hear Alter Ego's Rider case now.

[Servant Caster]

I don't think there's any point to debate the strength of the clears, as far as I'm concerned L/A/C is off the table and if one L/A is actually scum I'll just chalk it up to an unfortunate set of circumstances costing us the victory.

Let's figure out which two to eliminate from the three.

[Servant Caster]

I'm kind of leaning towards Alter Ego being the last scum now because I kind of feel like they are just kind of fence sitting a letting the Rider/Beast 1v1 play out.

Both Rider/Beast sound more genuine in their convictions/beliefs in these last few days, whereas Alter Ego sounds more fence-sitty/careful.

I still don't know who they prefer to execute?

Also on reread there are parts of Alter Ego's iso that I'm not quite fond of on first two skims I will outline them later.

[Servant Caster]

Spoiler: Long Reread

43
63 Initially questions Saber's NP Choices.
92 Kind of a Fence-Sitty/Noncommital.
108 Shades Assassin's Claim
111 Supports Saber's "caginess"
114
119 This is an interesting sequence, question then supports the person who is susp of them?
125 Not sure I believe this statement.

There's a back and forth between Alter Ego / Beast that kind of seems pointless? I'm not sure Alter Ego is playing to determine Beast's alignment as much as they are trying to win the word battle.

233 Decent interaction with Moon Cancer - Challenges them on the scumread. I however get the sense that Alter Ego feels more confident interacting with MC/Foreigner than for example Beast in an adversarial manner - it feels like they are more aggressive in this post than when they play footsie with Beast.

244 Rebukes Beast pushing for Saber by preferring Assassin/Berserker

335 Votes for Berserker

Another shit fight with Beast over some stuff that's kind of meh? I dunno what's going on here.


435 Doesn't like Avenger


441 Defends Foreigner?


449 Reads-list here

479 Re-iterates Moon Cancer is bad

533 Defends Foreigner's "anti-consensus" read on Caster

553 Defends Foreigner's statement about their notification PM


557 Continued Defense of Foreigner

some more fighting with Beast here.


733 is convinced Caster is town because of her terrible "case" on berserker

They invite berserker to self-hammer and their reaction to the self hammer troll is:


739
742
743

I dunno about this reaction. In the moment I felt it was pretty townie but I guess feelings fade with time? I wouldn't say it's impossible for this to be faked to be townread?

I have a lot of paranoia now :< I have seen scum use faked "twilight" reactions to get townread and I've read this over and over again and I'm not sure I am as sure this is a town reaction anymore.

813 Tells Foreigner to let me go as I am town. <3 Such a sweetie I feel so bad about this paranoia (⌒_⌒;)


866 Readlist - tries to reorient Foreigner?


867 Shades Saber for "fading"


906
911

Pretty good reaction to Saber claim, definitely doesn't feel planned out or S/S :<

937

First vote on the Saber wagon - pretty good post

1041 Pretty good post? I'm feeling like if AE is scum I'm just ending up pocketed all over again :<


1060 Back to Moon Cancer


1076 Am I being paranoid or does it feel like Alter Ego is deciding which scum-bus will set their team up better for the long term?


1083 Campaigning for Moon Cancer death.

Its at this point Notty gets iced and then the Gladiate happens.

AE goes very hard against Avenger and that makes a lot of sense, a lot of what they say is very passionate and emotional and I'm not sure scum!AE would be capable of going that hard versus a townie who had just gladiated their scum partner.

1184
1186

this sequence in particular feels quite over the top if they really are scum defending scum!foreigner here.

mm did I manage to get pocketed by AE a second time? I'm quite tired and I'll continue this tomorrow I guess.

[Servant Caster]

I guess what stuck out to me on re-read was this section:

If they're town they're a worthless POS who deserved to die anyway.

Boo hoo, you fucking baby. How hard is it to claim your role when asked?

It just feels a bit much.

I know AE is an emotional player who has lashed out at people previously but Foreigner is basically dead here so I don't understand the anger from a Town!POV, like why would you get upset at someone you believe is scum ? Whereas I can kind of understand why Scum!AE might be mad at Scum!Foreigner for covering for Foreigner all game and Foreigner refusing to even claim a role and continuing to be caustic. Like AE can only be expected to carry Foreigner so far?

I'm not really very certain or feel good about any of this though >.>

It just feels like the game slowed down and when that happens I tend to get overly paranoid thoughts in my head :<.

I miss LukeWarm and Notty : (

[Servant Caster]

It doesn't make sense because from what I see of Kerset, he is not a very mean person from what I know of him?


I really feel like this kind of conversation just came out of nowhere.. and it would make sense if it boiled over from an argument they were having in the Scum PT because why would Town be arguing with Scum in this way?

[Servant Caster]

I kind of doubt scum would openly antagonize the conftown in this way and Rider's doubt feels town-motivated to me :<

I don't think it's a realistic expectation that we end up eliminating outside of Beast-Rider-AlterEgo for the duration of the game.

If there's some weird way that Assassin/Lancer are somehow mafia, I'm ok losing to that.

[Servant Caster]

to me it feels like he's just trying to widen the elimpool

I kind of doubt this

it feels more like he is trying to check every possible area we might have fucked up

its unrealistic for a scum to widen the elim pool onto a friend;y neighbor

im pretty sure its never happened before?

[Servant Caster]

I am officially worried : (

[Servant Caster]

I feel like it's important to try to show the thinking that was going on behind the scenes and my progression on players, because there were multiple times where I could have pushed him to wagon a town player instead of a scum player, and I didn't do that.

You know what's notable about Cabd's hood with Dunnstral? He didn't kill him after putting in all that effort.

He didn't kill Dunnstral because Dunnstral was a potential Mis-Elim, He had Dunnstral doing whatever he wanted Dunnstral to do, and also because every nightkill on that side of the board was already spoken for.

Cabd did kill Ffery/Bork as soon as Bork turned on him in their hood together despite all of his efforts to fake solve.

I guess I just don't understand why you got that mad at Foreigner.

Even when he was making the worst cases on me I still didn't feel any kind of anger at him? I snapped at him a few times but nothing to the level you did when he couldn't come up with a claim despite having days.

The emotions make sense if you are trying to help him but he is too lazy in your opinion to even try.

[Servant Caster]

what would you like me to talk to you about? ^,^

I guess I am just overly paranoid by nature.

[Servant Caster]

Well, I asked you about the "pocketed me again" comment you made, because I didn't understand what you meant.

But aside from the Foreigner twilight posts, walk me through why you think it's me? I know you thought I was being sideliney earlier because my activity dropped, do you still have an issue now that I've gotten through rereading?

Well I had hard townbinned you initially because I just liked the vibe of your posts and you've been fairly good at driving bad guy elimwagons and your reactions are so

good

Then I got the feeling today you were trying to avoid the conflict and let Rider/Beast just rip each other apart, and on an initial skim I found that exchange you had with foreigner kind of strange due to the emotional anger both of you threw at each other.

So I began re-reading your ISO for clues post by post and ended up feeling pocketed again, hence why I said you pocketed me again.

I guess the aggression both Beast/Rider had towards each other felt

more town

for me than you fence-sitting?

I'd think if there was someone on the scum team doing the hard-bus/deepwolf and could pull of the win it would be you?

[Servant Caster]

@Alter Ego.

It doesn't really matter what I believe about your alignment.

Most people in this game do not believe you can be mafia and I'm not going to hard-push for your elimination unless it's F4.

So let's just try to win today and hopefully I won't get into a manic fit tomorrow? If you nail the last scum we never have to have this conversation tomorrow.

[Servant Caster]

Honestly it just feels to me like you

know

that there is going to be a Day 5 to play instead of being optimistic that we can win today :<

[Servant Caster]

is it time to hammer?

[Servant Caster]

It would have to be some wild shenanigans for us to lose at this point >.<

[Servant Caster]

whats the final plan?

it changed so many times I'm kind of dizzy ;_;

[Servant Caster]

fingers crossed

[Servant Caster]

@Caster:

does your roleblock work on the factional kill? Please confirm with the mod.

It works on the factional nightkill, skills and NPs.

I confirmed with the moderator before I used it.


I have been terrorized.

It makes me incapable of doing anything today and tonight.

[Servant Caster]

I am not really surprised Rider/Beast both flipped green.

I said as much yesterday that they were probably T/T and we should flip Alter Ego.

~shrug~

I think barring any mech shenanigans this game is basically done.

[Servant Caster]

I don't think you're the type of player who concedes games.

People who try that hard usually don't.

It's incredibly difficult for you to convince me that Assassin is some kind of Strongman.

[Servant Caster]

If today is the last day should we all do a full claim? as in character and all?

[Servant Caster]

I can confirm it's not a message sent.
My first post today was seeing the message, my second post was me knowing it's legit.

Take it as you like, but Lancer can't be scum in any way.

I'm assuming this is 100% locked town.

So if I am to believe you then Assassin is some kind of strongman and killed Beast because he can't actually create a PT and his NP is actually the terror thing he used on me?

[Servant Caster]

I think if I am to believe you and lose to you it'd be harder for me to accept than just taking the mech solution here.

Esp since I thought Beast/Rider were T/T and I wanted to kill you yesterday :<

[Servant Caster]

Received the invite Assassin.

^ so the PT thing is definitely real

I think it's just Alter Ego here?

Unless Assassin has some kind of day-neighborize NP-ability, a fruit vendor ability, a charm ability and a strongman ability?

That seems kind of far-fetched for me to believe :<

[Servant Caster]

What's your third skill Assassin?

[Servant Caster]

because I know I've been Terrorized by somebody, so I don't think it would even fit on Assassin's skill list. Scum can't have a total of 5 abilities right?

[Servant Caster]

my full claim:

I have three skills:

a one-shot neighborize that allows the target to additionally neighborize another player into our neighborhood on the day phase. Berserker forgot to do this despite me telling him multiple times to neighborize Archer :<

a one-shot roleblock that gives me * if it prevents an action - it works on factional abilities - skills - NPs. I used this on Assassin on N2.

a three shot alignment investigation ability that shows me the alignment of players I target.

on N3 I used it on Assassin, he is Chaotic Neutral

on N4 I used it on Alter Ego, he is Chaotic Evil.


My NP costs five stars and it blocks the skills of two players that I target for a night/day cycle.

[Servant Caster]

Come to think of it, we have no idea who Archer jailed. If he'd targeted Caster, then it would have prevented the roleblock on Assassin. But that's highly speculative.

if we lose this game because Gamma was too lazy to neighborize Archer so we could coordinate our roleblocks and he ended up roleblocking me the night I cleared assassin I don't think I could articulate how angry I would be at Gamma

[Servant Caster]

that would be a hilarious way to lose come to think of it

[Servant Caster]

hmm so I have no way of telling if I had actually been roleblocked.

Since Assassin didn't actually do anything on N2, I don't have the * indicator showing whether I was even successful roleblocking him

:/

[Servant Caster]

ok that makes sense.

Anything else we need to go over?

[Servant Caster]

it feels like nothing is happening and I'm not sure what we are waiting for.

[Servant Caster]

I thought it was Alter yesterday and said Beast/Rider were probably just T/T.

It's easy to look good if you know who the scum team is and you enjoy bussing.

[Servant Caster]

I don't think I can get to a place where Assassin is some kind of selective ascetic/strongman who just happened to activate his ability on night two when I roleblocked him.

If I'm wrong I'm sorry but it's just one of those flukey results that you don't really expect to show up in games.

[Servant Caster]

for me to be scum from a neutral POV without knowledge of my role PM I would have to have these abilities:

(1) Night Neighborizer - Verified by Berserker

(2) Investigates Player Alignments. - Verified since I stated you and Assassin's alignments.

(3) Some kind of investigation immunity. - Necessary for the Beast Check to False Clear me.


and then I just decided to claim "roleblocker" on Assassin in order to make him cleared when he's a pushable slot. - Why would I do that instead of just making up another ability?

Also how would I even know that Assassin doesn't have a night action to resolve on Night 2? Wouldn't him having an actual night action completely blow up my plan?

[Servant Caster]

Well there's 9 possible alignment combinations and I stated yours and Assassin's.

The odds of me guessing them by "chance" is 1/81 in pure probability terms.

There's no motivation for scum!me to clear Assassin with a roleblock, it only removes a player from the mis-elim pool and really gains me nothing since I've already been cleared by Beast.

Furthermore if I fake a roleblock on Assassin and he actually did commit an action that resolved, it would blow my claim up - this makes even less sense to do for me after I have already been check-cleared by Beast.

[Servant Caster]

Well there's 9 possible alignment combinations and I stated yours and Assassin's.

The odds of me guessing them by "chance" is 1/81 in pure probability terms.

There's no motivation for scum!me to clear Assassin with a roleblock, it only removes a player from the mis-elim pool and really gains me nothing since I've already been cleared by Beast.

Furthermore if I fake a roleblock on Assassin and he actually did commit an action that resolved, it would blow my claim up - this makes even less sense to do for me after I have already been check-cleared by Beast.

It's not pure "chance", though, you'd be able to deduce what was possible based on what info we revealed about our roles - I think almost anyone could have guessed my alignment was Chaotic Evil after my claim about my neighborhood abilities. Acting as if it would be purely random is incredibly disingenuous.

And I just realized, you'd have to have claimed SOMETHING to Berserker when you neighborized him - maybe some slight protown utility, something to seem good, and you'd have to be accountable for using it. something like that roleblock.

I can't say for sure, I'm just speculating, the only advantage I have is that I know something is wrong. I can't have made up some claim that makes me sound better, I only have the truth.

You're just making things up at this point.

[Servant Caster]

If you're town then we got screwed by mech at some point along the way and that's not really anyone's fault.

I kind of doubt there is mech that would explicitly screw up the town in a game where the role distribution is 4 v 10 because that's kind of nuts?

I've re-read my role PM and asked cabd about whether I roleblock factional kills and double checked everything so it's just a locked mech win unless Avenger somehow misread the PM and I'm never in a million years going to believe that a Friendly Neighbor is fake or someone misread their friendly message notification. In that scenario the fault is Avenger's alone and I won't really care because such a thing is unwinnable.

[Servant Caster]

sigh i am getting scared again :<

time to do another reread

[Servant Caster]

I just think it's really disappointing that it feels like I'm the only person still playing :<

[Servant Caster]

Now that I'm cleared and it probably doesn't matter, in case I do die, I gave my charm to Alter (D1)... which means roleblocking him won't clear him etc (don't do it). My flip will make it clear what it does.

I'll take a look at rider/avenger's isos at some point.

Alter what does the charm that Assassin gave you actually do?

[Servant Caster]

I am ok with voting Assassin instead of Alter just so I can lose to really good play rather than mech bullshit if that's what you want to do

[Servant Caster]

I just know I'm town so I dunno what Assassin could be unless he's like immune to Debuffs and not immune to investigations or whatever?

[Servant Caster]

like I know I roleblocked Assassin on Night Two.

My roleblock gives me * if it blocks any action.

I didn't get *

so either:

(1) Assassin didn't do anything on Night 2

or

(2) My roleblock on Assassin failed for some reason Night 2.

[Servant Caster]

is anyone alive out there?



(ノωヽ)

[Servant Caster]

so you do think alter could be town?

I simultaneously want to get this over with and am afraid of voting anyone

I mean it's possible that I got roleblocked or redirected or Assassin is just naturally immune to debuffs ?


It's like 25:75 in my head but I get cold feet re-reading Alter Ego's iso :<

[Servant Caster]

im not scum

[Servant Caster]

what is wrong with you

[Servant Caster]

im like literally the only person who even halfway believes you and you keep throwing shit at me its downright ridiculous at this point

[Servant Caster]

I almost feel like you're negging me at this point to try to confuse me into believing you : (

[Servant Caster]

Now that I'm cleared and it probably doesn't matter, in case I do die, I gave my charm to Alter (D1)... which means roleblocking him won't clear him etc (don't do it). My flip will make it clear what it does.

I'll take a look at rider/avenger's isos at some point.

Alter what does the charm that Assassin gave you actually do?

^

Can you answer this question at least?

[Servant Caster]

im kinda almost thinking we don't vote into a no elim just to see who gets shot

[Servant Caster]

can you ask the mod if negative status debuff means roleblock?

[Servant Caster]

like would roleblocks work on you?