White flag #824 game over

[goats]

think about how bad that sequence of events is.

1) GL votes dwlee
2) I accuse GL of being partners with dwlee
3) GL says "I can't possibly be partners with dwlee, I voted him one time!"
4) GL

unvotes dwlee and onto dwlee's loudest accuser

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[GuiltyLion]

You never outed a really strong scumread of him it was more like a "oh I can't find any other palatable options, guess I'll kick dwlee's ass in gear". All he has to do is show up and post and you have an excuse to shift the vote off him.

this is assuming that I'm scum first and writing a narrative second

I didn't have any strong scumreads and Dwlee hadn't done anything to read him off of, that makes him a good vote. The issue is your thought process, apparently "scum who has no other viable options voting his partner on early D1" is somehow more likely than "town with a handful of townreads on active players pushing an inactive slot to participate"? I can't see that coming from someone reasoning about my posts in good faith

[GuiltyLion]

3) GL says "I can't possibly be partners with dwlee, I voted him one time!"

This is not at all what I said, actually

[goats]

I already had a scum read of you independently, then I got a scumread on dwlee independently, and when I checked your interactions I see you softballing a vote on him so I say you could easily be partners. and lo and behold you immediately show up and try your best to dissuade everyone from that notion using faulty logic.

[goats]

3) GL says "I can't possibly be partners with dwlee, I voted him one time!"

This is not at all what I said, actually

yes it is man you said the setup discourages bussing so you can't be partners with dwlee because you're voting him.

[GuiltyLion]

no, you're trying to frame what I said as being an argument about whether or not I'm scum with Dwlee, but that's not what I'm arguing about. I don't need to argue or convince anybody of me not being scum with Dwlee because I already know it's not true.

Instead what I am pushing on is your thought process, what I am saying is that it's

really hard

for me to grok town in your shoes seeing a scumread voting another scumread and using that as evidence to reinforce their scumread on both players, particularly in a white flag game. You're starting with a conclusion you want to push ("GL is scum") and then arguing from that position in the face of what should have been relatively decent-to-strong evidence immediately to the contrary.

[goats]

IT'S NOT DECENT TO STRONG EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY

it was a vote you threw out with no reasoning in the first few pages of the game that you shifted off soon after. you love to twist words don't you?

[goats]

I'm not engaging w/ you any more. I'm not gonna convince you to admit that you're scum and I'd rather let you sit here and dig a hole for yourself.

@everyone else vote GL if you want to become confirmed town for free after he flips mafia. no mafia would vote for another mafia d1 after all

[Gamma Emerald]

Idk if GL is scum but goats definitely feels like town

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not engaging w/ you any more.

This is exactly what scum!Koba just pulled in Coalition when I started arguing back at him after he tried to bullshit a fake early game scumread on me

You still haven't answered why I would vote one of my partners instead of literally anyone else during the stage of the game when it's easiest to come up with reasons to vote almost anybody. Seeing a scumread vote another scumread absolutely should prompt you to think about whether you're wrong on one of those reads more than it should make you think "oh scum must be distancing with each other!!". The odds of both me and Dwlee being scum together a priori are already low in a vacuum, and then the idea that I must be voting him as part of some nefarious scum distancing agenda feels a lot more like trying to shoehorn your read into making sense rather than genuinely evaluating potential town!explanations for why I'm voting where I'm voting.

Like even using your own logic, if the vote is so half baked or easily moved that I get no anti-associative credit from it, then what would be the benefit to scum!me for doing it? Again, why vote my partner over anyone else if I'm just locking myself into needing to back off of it later?

[GuiltyLion]

sorry, arguing back at them after they tried to bullshit a fake early game scumread on me*

[Dwlee99]

Gamma wants to actually do something with his opening and use it to solve. It wasn't just the entrance specifically but also how he built off of it and showed how he wanted to use it to solve in a genuine way

What solving did Gamma do with his opening exercise? I didn't see him make many reads off it, he moved on really quick.

Gamma talks about how the info gleaned from it can be used later for associatives and to get people a core group to discuss things with.

[Dwlee99]

Think that goats and lion is TvT

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma wants to actually do something with his opening and use it to solve. It wasn't just the entrance specifically but also how he built off of it and showed how he wanted to use it to solve in a genuine way

What solving did Gamma do with his opening exercise? I didn't see him make many reads off it, he moved on really quick.

Gamma talks about how the info gleaned from it can be used later for associatives and to get people a core group to discuss things with.

Yeah this was what I figured would be said
The solving aspect of my exercise comes from those evaluations D2 and whether they make sense
There’s also how people react to the exercise itself but I’m not gonna read into those until N1 comes, to avoid tainting it somehow

[Dwlee99]

GuiltyLion
Gamma Emerald
Not_Mafia
Flea the Magician
Infinity 324
Dwlee99
PookyTheMagicalBear
goats

MURDERCAT

bugspray
implosion
Klick
Datisi

Putting murder in the middle cause I want more ~stuff~ from him. Hopefully killing everyone below and including murder would win the game.

[MURDERCAT]

do i really have to explain why implo is town

I agree I think

[Gamma Emerald]

Read on.

[MURDERCAT]

I'm caught up, will share thoughts when I get to computer post

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: BUGS

[Datisi]

Instead what I am pushing on is your thought process, what I am saying is that it's really hard for me to grok town in your shoes seeing a scumread voting another scumread and using that as evidence to reinforce their scumread on both players, particularly in a white flag game. You're starting with a conclusion you want to push ("GL is scum") and then arguing from that position in the face of what should have been relatively decent-to-strong evidence immediately to the contrary.

:/

guilty, do you really genuinely believe that one person voting another in what was essentially rvs is" decent-to-strong evidence" for the two of them not being partnered?

[Datisi]

VOTE: Dwlee

are you still scumreading implosion and what are your other reads

like this vote was pretty much a "play the game" poke, which is really really not difficult to move away from, especially if nobody bites and joins you.

and the "why would scum!me do it if i would have to walk back from it later" is nothing but wifom and you know it. why does scum do anything if they will later have to follow up on it? besides, you obviously thought that the vote should be some sorta evidence to you not being partners with dwlee (considering how fast you were to rip into goats for daring to suggest otherwise), so why would you not do it?

[Datisi]

sigh. VOTE: guiltylion

dwlee, why is guiltylion your top townread?

[Datisi]

But why would scum!Datisi go through with posting that regardless afterwards once he confirmed it wasn't indicative and I was consistent across the two games?

...why not? He'd just be doing it to emulate a town thought process. But etc.

also i wanted to go back to this for a second. this is pretty much correct, if scum!me thought i saw a difference between two town!guiltylions, then realized i was wrong, i would still write that out to simulate solving.

i guess my q is, why are you so sure that i don't post that as scum? i *think* your idea of my scumgame is pretty outdated, but i know you read at least one of my morr recent games, so i'm curious how you got here.

[Not_Mafia]

I can see goats being scum who is just trying to derail by throwing out umpteen aggressive accusations

[implosion]

and especially how would my vote on Dwlee make sense as a partner vote when this is explicitly a setup that punishes bussing more than usual? Like if I were scum the last thing I would be doing right now is voting a partner when I could probably come up with an excuse to vote almost anyone

thinking about it more I'm having a hard time seeing how us being partners is a genuine read or thought

VOTE: goats

This is very one-dimensional. "The last thing I would be doing right now is voting a partner" when we're in the first day or two of the game, and Datisi wasn't really a wagon with steam, is a vapid take. A setup that disincentivizes bussing necessarily incentivizes effective distancing; if you think you can distance from a buddy by voting as scum here, you will. Your vote isn't gonna make it that likely that they'll be eliminated at this point. How is it the last thing scum would do? I don't even think it's really disincentivized at this point. It's certainly disincentivized for scum to bus a partner that has a likely chance of going down soon but at this point I'm skeptical that you'd really be suspicious of someone for saying something might be a partner vote.

I didn't have any strong scumreads and Dwlee hadn't done anything to read him off of, that makes him a good vote. The issue is your thought process, apparently "scum who has no other viable options voting his partner on early D1" is somehow more likely than "town with a handful of townreads on active players pushing an inactive slot to participate"? I can't see that coming from someone reasoning about my posts in good faith

This in turn feels remarkably like reasoning about someone else's posts not in good faith.

Like even using your own logic, if the vote is so half baked or easily moved that I get no anti-associative credit from it, then what would be the benefit to scum!me for doing it? Again, why vote my partner over anyone else if I'm just locking myself into needing to back off of it later?

This also seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too. You're saying that goats's logic is wrong because scum wouldn't want to bus right now because the setup disincentivizes it, *but also* scum wouldn't bus right now because they won't get anti-associative credit from it if they can move it. Doesn't the second logic invalidate the first? I know you're saying "using your own logic" but the same trick can be flipped on you here. Using your own logic, if your vote on dwlee should be interpreted as evidence that you're not scumbuddies, then you have incentive to make that vote as scumbuddies. Conversely, your vote is so half baked and easy to move that you no longer have any reason *not* to vote them; you might not be getting anti-associative credit but you also aren't putting them at risk. This isn't logic, it's just a choose-your-own-adventure masquerading as logic.

UNVOTE: Datisi
VOTE: GuiltyLion