White flag #824 game over

[GuiltyLion]

Oh wait I totally missed 274, hold on

[Infinity 324]

I don't like infinity calling me scum and not voting me either.

i'm not sure what the vc is

i do think this post looks towny but the follow-up seems to be a bunch of shallow reads. idk

[Infinity 324]

Do I need to pull the receipts for yall to listen to me? I can when I wake up and get out of bed on my PC later today

i want to townread guiltylion for this, because my first instinct when i'm town and being pushed for things i know are nonsense is "look, here's a dump of 10 billion of my town and scum posts that prove that i never do this thing, can you piss off" so i definitely feel that. and also i was skimming dnc here and there when it was happening and i think that annoyance lines up. wouldn't mind seeing a few examples you offered, though.

yeah a little mindmeld here

[GuiltyLion]

What do you actually think of that initial post?
You know, the one that infers Gamma is
Angry at bugs being a baboon
Angry at bugs stupidity and lack of reading comprehension
Voting because he believes someone is scum
Tilted
Caught for the wrong reasons by the lack of reading comprehension
Reacts adversely, causing point 1
Uses fake justification for an attack

At the risk of completely embarrassing myself, I do see what you're saying here. I think I initially lazy shelved goats as a townread for playing ~ aggressive ~ and because I did think Gamma was being reactive in a way that I could imagine a town!goats genuinely scumreading, and then when I saw you calling it a "massive" reach I didn't buy that because I felt you may be trying to make it look worse than it actually was

Having now been on the other end of a goats push, I am rethinking this a bit now, because I do see the point about how he assumed Gamma was scum caught for bad reasons and he efinitely wasn't giving any weight to a town!Gamma explanation for his behavior

Let me turn this back to you, what is your reads on goats now and why do you not see his claim that me/Dwlee "can easily be partnered" as a similar reach? Fmpov that one is worse because he's straight up making assumptions about alignments rather than reads/motivations

[GuiltyLion]

I will give the examples in maybe 2-3 hours time

[Datisi]

Datisi please reread goats posts assuming you had my green flip

The way he pushes me just vibes scum to me. Arrogant, making up narratives, not grounded in any genuine suspicion. I think he knows I'm green as well

okay, i did, but here's the thing. i still think this post is bad:

and especially how would my vote on Dwlee make sense as a partner vote when this is explicitly a setup that punishes bussing more than usual? Like if I were scum the last thing I would be doing right now is voting a partner when I could probably come up with an excuse to vote almost anyone

like, even if you are town and it's actually true that you would never vote a partner like that, let's assume that's the case. there was no way for the rest of us to know that at the time, and my reaction to this (and the following discussion that panned out) was definitely that you're scummy. because it did feel like you were purposefully conflating and over exaggerating that a post doesn't come from partners when from an outside perspective it feels like it easily can, and then misrepping by saying that they read it as specifically partner indicative (when to me it felt more like a "not evidence to the contrary" read).

i got a feeling while reading that interaction that you were purposefully trying to emulate your play from coalition, where you went hard after someone early, because you knew i (and possibly implo) were watching and comparing the two games.

even now i'm mulling over whether something like 230 makes sense from a town!pov, because even if you know that you yourself don't vote a partner like that, obviously you thought that the vote would be a somewhat of a good distance, and this is a setup where distancing is important (or i guess, important-er), and goats probably had no idea about that part of your meta. does it make sense to think that seeing a vote/read like that cannot come from town...?

if you want to point out which posts you feel like are obvious scum because of the way they're pushing you, please do. but uh, even if the mod announced you were town right now, i really don't think i'd think goats is scum here, because their attack on you seems... reasonable? a bit asshole-ish, but reasonable.

[goats]

in spite of everything i find myself having an odd gut read that dwlee is town lol

when did this happen??

around 275

surprisingly enough that post made me feel worse about them

idk if it's partnery, but it definitely sounds like a "scum defending a suspicious townie that they know wouldn't convince anyone". and also something rubbed me the wrong way about our exchange of:

- "why is this person town?"
- "i don't see scummy things"
- "okay, why are your scumreads scum?"
- "poe from finding town"

but maybe i'm nitpicking, i know i should stop tunnelling semantics. sometimes.

yeah i don't have a real reason for the read. it's purely gut. I'm not gonna ignore logic entirely and part of why I quizzed dwlee about their bottom four stuff was to try to figure them out a little b/c of the discrepancy between my gut and my logic. I'm really looking forward to their "re-eval" tbh.

[goats]

Datisi please reread goats posts assuming you had my green flip

The way he pushes me just vibes scum to me. Arrogant, making up narratives, not grounded in any genuine suspicion. I think he knows I'm green as well

I'm still not engaging w/ you but I'm not a he. just so you know.

arrogance is NAI for me btw

[GuiltyLion]

I guess the main thing I want/need to clarify is like

My intention was never to argue about clearing myself and I don't think my initial posts did, or at least I didn't mean to. Goats has certainly framed them that way.

Rather I was trying to make the point that saying "I can easily see this as partnered" - without putting any reassessing on whether it's possible/likely that town!GL is suspecting/poking a mutually suspected empty slot - is what strikes me as fake. There was no consideration that I may be town, just an assertion that their two scumreads make sense together

I guess if you don't know my alignment it's harder to see, but I really disagree the push was reasonable or town-motivated, especially once they started framing it as me saying we are never partners. I think I got baited into having that argument when it wasn't what I was trying to have

P-edit: I'm sorry, I'll be more careful to get it right going forward

[goats]

oh yeah I guess I lied about not engaging with you because I'm really eager to hear your response to this:

multiple people (implosion, datisi, infinity) all echo the reason I had to scumread you (trying to convince us that you can't be partners with dwlee because you voted them one time). if im making up narratives and not arguing in good faith and my suspicion is just so bad it can't be genuine... what are they? scum too?

[goats]

who was the person who said murdercat is really obvious scum when they scum therefore they are townie here since they aren't obvious scum?

because I just read their iso and i think it's doo doo and they are obvious scum.

[GuiltyLion]

You never outed a really strong scumread of him it was more like a "oh I can't find any other palatable options, guess I'll kick dwlee's ass in gear".

3) GL says "I can't possibly be partners with dwlee, I voted him one time!"

These the misreps.

Rereading my own 220, I think people are misinterpreting it. I wasn't trying to clear myself there, though I do see how someone could read it that way. But my intent was to try to pressure goats on why their narrative for my play was the likely/correct explanation

[Infinity 324]

Rather I was trying to make the point that saying "I can easily see this as partnered" - without putting any reassessing on whether it's possible/likely that town!GL is suspecting/poking a mutually suspected empty slot - is what strikes me as fake. There was no consideration that I may be town, just an assertion that their two scumreads make sense together

i still don't get why this is scum-indicative. they felt you were scummy individually, and they felt dwlee was scum individually, so i think they were just doing a sanity check of "one scumread voted the other, do they still make sense as partners?" and the answer was yes.

it wasn't a cue to reconsider you as town there, and i'm not sure why it should've been. it's early on enough that i wouldn't expect any townie to voice their idea of a possible town perspective for their scumread, rather seeing something they think is more likely scum than town is enough for a push.

[GuiltyLion]

Eh, it didn't strike me as a sanity check, I thought it was a preemptive handwave of something they knew they might get questioned on or should be reevaluating. Maybe I need to try more to put myself into the headspace of how it looks to a third party but it's hard when they immediately start misrepping and gloating and playing to the rest of the thread

[GuiltyLion]

It also felt like I was being manipulated into keeping my vote on Dwlee, but maybe I invented that

[Infinity 324]

Eh, it didn't strike me as a sanity check, I thought it was a preemptive handwave of something they knew they might get questioned on or should be reevaluating.

i don't even think this is very scum-indicative though if true. pre-empting a possible annoying question (or even scumread) as town is pretty reasonable and something i do relatively often

i think you're frustrated with goats' push on you and you're turning that into a scumread. for me i don't see scum be this aggressive this early very often, so by default i'm tempted to read goats as towny and there's nothing in particular their play that would make me doubt that.

(speaking of pre-empting a question, i do feel that gl is towny atp)

[Infinity 324]

it's probably not just frustration that you're turning into a scumread, i think you have some different expectations about how town/scum operate in situations like this

[Flea The Magician]

@flea give me your strongest reads please. not just pokes and prods in response to posts, I'd like to know how you feel about the game as a whole.

You may be an alt but you don't know me that well it seems I rarely spew reads on demand.

Also implosion is townie for the olive branch reach out as well

Flea shading me in 276 is a real bad look and I think an attempt to goad me into flailing further. There's no point to that post except to try to make me look bad, no attempt at engaging.

Thing is, it's not aimed for you to engage. It's me pointing things out I dislike and what amuse me. I have questions for you elsewhere.

What do you actually think of that initial post?
You know, the one that infers Gamma is
Angry at bugs being a baboon
Angry at bugs stupidity and lack of reading comprehension
Voting because he believes someone is scum
Tilted
Caught for the wrong reasons by the lack of reading comprehension
Reacts adversely, causing point 1
Uses fake justification for an attack

At the risk of completely embarrassing myself, I do see what you're saying here. I think I initially lazy shelved goats as a townread for playing ~ aggressive ~ and because I did think Gamma was being reactive in a way that I could imagine a town!goats genuinely scumreading, and then when I saw you calling it a "massive" reach I didn't buy that because I felt you may be trying to make it look worse than it actually was

Having now been on the other end of a goats push, I am rethinking this a bit now, because I do see the point about how he assumed Gamma was scum caught for bad reasons and he efinitely wasn't giving any weight to a town!Gamma explanation for his behavior

Let me turn this back to you, what is your reads on goats now and why do you not see his claim that me/Dwlee "can easily be partnered" as a similar reach? Fmpov that one is worse because he's straight up making assumptions about alignments rather than reads/motivations

I'm fairly good on goats rn, isn't someone I'd be willing to take into YOLO at this point but I like their style. Your focus on partner-tells is massively worrying for me. Your defence alone justifies goats accusation. Some stretches are good, and get results. Others are just outright awful. Yours on me, is one of the awful ones as you got nothing from it and honestly it looks like a defence attempt using mech as way out.

[goats]

oh yeah I guess I lied about not engaging with you because I'm really eager to hear your response to this:

multiple people (implosion, datisi, infinity) all echo the reason I had to scumread you (trying to convince us that you can't be partners with dwlee because you voted them one time). if im making up narratives and not arguing in good faith and my suspicion is just so bad it can't be genuine... what are they? scum too?

gentle reminder for GL in case he "forgot" about this

[goats]

@flea give me your strongest reads please. not just pokes and prods in response to posts, I'd like to know how you feel about the game as a whole.

You may be an alt but you don't know me that well it seems I rarely spew reads on demand.

alright.

do me a favor and go read murdercat's iso? it's not long I promise

[Flea The Magician]

MC is someone I cannot sort for the life of me, I've been wrong more times than i've been right and honestly I'm happy letting others sort him.

Might have a read once I'm off my new meds

[Infinity 324]

has scum!him tricked you before? if you're scumreading him incorrectly you're probably just expecting too much from his scumgame. though when he's town he doesn't always have the most energy so i'm waiting for him to post a bit more here

[Gamma Emerald]

has scum!him tricked you before? if you're scumreading him incorrectly you're probably just expecting too much from his scumgame. though when he's town he doesn't always have the most energy so i'm waiting for him to post a bit more here

this matches what I've seen of him

[GuiltyLion]

uh okay so this is definitely embarrassing but when I started going back through my old scum games/PTs to try to find good posts that would summarize why I don't like to awkwardly commit myself to suspecting/voting partners early game as scum, I actually realized that I forgot that I

did

recently try such a maneuver in my most recent scumgame last year, Forest Fire (link is to the initial distance vote)

here's my post after D1 in the maf PT where I am identifying how it put me in a bad spot, like this is pretty much exactly why I try to avoid it as scum because it played out risky/badly on D1 as expected. But it is kinda egg on my face to see I haven't been completely above trying that move, I remembered fighting with Ydrasse in game making posts more like this but forgot how tentative the initial distancing/vote was.

so while yes I guess I have done it before and maybe it's not unreasonable for someone to think that, I wasn't lying about how I don't

like

to do that as scum and I DO have the receipts of me saying this same thing as town:

1) here (last post before I was misyeeted in DnC, read this + quoted)
2) here ("the idea that I'd open the game as scum by pressuring my partner instead of anyone else I could go after is pretty questionable, to put it lightly")
3) here ("I can show you many past scumgames of me treating my newbie scum partners with kiddie gloves, especially on D1 since I don't like unnecessary attention on them until/unless I'm confident they can handle it." - this is speaking specifically about being partner with a newbie but the latter sentence is true for any partners)
4) here ("I doubt this one will mean a lot coming from me as it's WIFOM and self-meta, but as a point of pride, I really try very hard as scum not to be clumsy about my associatives with my partner. I'll always try to take a firm stance on them whether I'm bussing or townreading and commit to it, I don't make waffley awkward moves around them and if I decide to bus I commit. Later I can pull some scum PTs where I've said as much.")
5) here ("again, me being anyone's top possible scumread is fairly absurd, frankly. to think that I am scum means I decided to death tunnel one of my partners on D1 over literally any other available mislynch. I didn't just casually vote BuJaber as a distance and get stuck there, I put my foot on the gas for that lynch multiple times. Against a mason setup that's extremely suboptimal play" - this one is a slightly different context as I hardpushed scum!BuJaber to an eventual scumflip D1, but the phrasing/point is very similar with regard to a mason setup/white flag setup where Bussing is Bad with a capital B)

[GuiltyLion]

and to make it clear again here is why I don't buy goats' idea that I'd have no available options to vote anyone other than a partner!Dwlee

like, let's say I scum with Dwlee, I vote him, he picks up a handful of votes and then I decide to bail because his wagon is getting too serious. That's going to look infinitely worse on us if either of us were to flip?? that's absolutely not how I play scum, pointlessly set myself up for a harder-to-navigate trajectory for no real gain whatsoever.