Mini Normal 2223 | Town Wins!

[MathBlade]

I would say based on these last few pages your stock would diminish greatly if Salsa is town and Marci is scum because you actively tried to derail the Marci elim. Before today if you had asked me that question I would say Dwlee then NM then you but if that was the case throw you all in a pressure cooker and see who comes up.

I know this is a non answer but if we elim Salsa and he’s town that’s a scary proposition here because I have had a feeling a deep wolf was on DGB’s hammer and not having been able to sort there really irks me.

I'm town and a

She

I apologize I am usually better with pronouns as they are important to me.

Not sure about the town part though.

You don't have to be sure, do what

ssbm

's want, eliminate me today... Everything will be clear after that. If you've time, can read my recent games. But leaving me today will cause town's loose over elo, I'm always a miselimination target, also don't think I can convince town ever, so eliminate me it's the best choice for town atm.

I don’t see how this makes anything clear if you’re town?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Unvote

I don’t like Dwlee’s naked hop on after having had plenty of time to do a VC or react to cases.

I just can’t tell if this is lazy Dwlee or scum Dwlee. I probably will be busy most of today but will read as I can.

[MathBlade]

I see that G but it’s still policy. Not mafia didn’t have posts on site far as I can tell. It could be because scum or RL it’s kinda one of those lines I just don’t cross.

In an ideal world we just elim both Not Mafia and Marci before elo but we can’t. Like I find it odd that Kyo is saying Salsa is scummier than Not Mafia and Marci and I want to hear that explanation.

[MathBlade]

If there is a vigilante or any town killing role I put the odds that "babysitter" is scum north of 80%, regardless of Titus' scummy day play.

VOTE: dwlee

Dwlee/N_M last 2 scum

I can be sold on this group except one thing:

Why were you so sure on Salsa, what did you think about her? This sudden shift seems odd now that I ask you for a case.

I am kinda nervous on policying NM but if we don’t have a rock star case it’s what we should do.

I don’t give a rats behind about “putting scum!me” to bed. Anyone who has played with scum!me knows that paranoia is healthy.

I am getting kinda paranoid of you/Not Mafia.

[MathBlade]

I really would love to hear from G/Manatee about Kyo’s change in read.

I think then based on they say we either flash NM or not.

Something doesn’t sit right and I am not sure how to say it so I am just going to let this sit and see where G and Manatee come in.

[MathBlade]

I really would love to hear from G/Manatee about Kyo’s change in read.

I think then based on they say we either flash NM or not.

Something doesn’t sit right and I am not sure how to say it so I am just going to let this sit and see where G and Manatee come in.

Give your best shot at explaining it? I dont think anything should not be sitting right

I'm not sure how to, but if you're going against your top town read someone who can't be scum to your eyes, there should be a known justifiable reason or at least a double check.
And no I haven't. It's super late for me and I have work in the morning.

My point also doesn't involve 233. I'm trying to figure out if you swapped because you're town and had that notion or if you're scum and realized support for Salsa wasn't going to happen and then went to Not Mafia either as a mis elim or a bus. I'm trying to get to your brain state of what made you so sure before your swap to wanting Not Mafia.

I will look at that though when time permits.

[MathBlade]

There’s way too many posts for me to read and catch up on before work so just answering G’s question and will get to the rest at lunch / after work.

Regarding Not Mafia I agree with the sentiment. I however can’t read a trolly player like Not Mafia to save my life. I think if we are going to policy him it has to be today because if we hit town today instead then tomorrow policy elims are off the table and we have to hit scum.

[MathBlade]

So no, I haven’t read all the wordy words because 10 minute break but this is where my thought is at

Kyo + Salsa are pretty much gunning for Dwlee.
So if we elim not mafia and town or scum since Not mafia isn’t really being talked about in context of not mafia I don’t see that changing.

So Nm town flip a conf Townie dies
Then tomorrow we are either in MELO with two players set on Dwlee or we are in double elim two players set on Dwlee

I know it’s probably somewhere but what are your current reads Dwlee?

[MathBlade]

So from your POV best case scenario NM is elimmed flips scum (I am not going to consider NM town here because the next question means we lose)

Then assume you are elimmed

Then me 1 conf town and kyo/salsa/Marci left.

Assume conf town dead and then the scum in that three kill in kyo/salsa/Marci as I am incredibly easy to buddy as evidenced by the townreads.

What do you think elo looks like and who kills whom?

And saying scum kill me is not an option. You’re not allowed to change the parameters of the hypothetical I am hunting this for a reason

[MathBlade]

Okay so it's final 4 of you, Kyo, salsa, Marci. Then there's a no lim and you're off limits to kill for some reason.

I think Kyo would kill Marci because she could paint Salsa as DGB/NM's teammate pretty easily due to the lack of focus that I think Salsa has shown in sorting those slots.

I think Salsa would kill Kyo because Marci is an easier flip. But maybe she WIFOMs it and kills Marci now that I'm saying this.

I think Marci would kill Kyo for the same reasons Kyo would kill Marci. Salsa seems like an easy flip here.

That's what I think in that scenario, but I think you would be night killed if this actually played out because it gives way less info as to who is scum and keeps two townies able to be eliminated.

If I am right on who scum is this is exactly what will play out but I don’t want to tip my hand here. Because scum will change their play.

I might have said too much as it is.

Or it’s just you and Not Mafia and GG. Lol

[MathBlade]

Why not? If you die and town wins who cares?

[MathBlade]

So from your POV best case scenario NM is elimmed flips scum (I am not going to consider NM town here because the next question means we lose)

Then assume you are elimmed

Then me 1 conf town and kyo/salsa/Marci left.

Assume conf town dead and then the scum in that three kill in kyo/salsa/Marci as I am incredibly easy to buddy as evidenced by the townreads.

What do you think elo looks like and who kills whom?

And saying scum kill me is not an option. You’re not allowed to change the parameters of the hypothetical I am hunting this for a reason

You're counting down wrong.
In this hypothetical, after N_M flips scum, 1 conftown dies.
Then dwlee is eliminated the next day - and 1 more conftown dies.

There is no question of who is nightkilled unless you're assuming scum is not going to kill the conftowns b2b. In this scenario, MELO is me, you, salsa, and Marci.

Proper procedure is a no elim at some point.

So another kill is needed unless everyone just agrees I would die then we just have it out at 4

[MathBlade]

Why not? If you die and town wins who cares?

It's a waste of an elimination

Not to me it’s not.

I think it’s likely because no one is defending Not Mafia he flips scum.

We elim you, either the game is over or we go to 4P elo.

At this point we decide to no elim or just play it out.

I think this gives us the best chance at winning. I think Dwlee is town here but I am not confident enough to stake the game on it but I think this is what we do.

[MathBlade]

You're staking the game on at least two people being town.

I am only staking the game on me being town.

If NM flips town then I have myself and a conf town and we have an elo where scum have to vote first and I am deadly efficient to proper elo processes.

If NM is scum then flip you and the game isn’t won then I am betting on my ability to read the remaining three.

[MathBlade]

Take Warehouse 13 where I was sure DGB was town. I fought for it the entire time. It didn’t work and then I could go back to my PoE which pretty much was Cakez or Titus and got Cakez. There’s this illusion of “good” doesn’t miselim and having to be right that kinda permeates. It’s about stopping the wrong. If scum have no places to hide we are forced to win. I will sacrifice a VT to get a deep wolf.

Take this from earlier

If you are a VT I give 0 qualms about elimming you if it nets us the last scum or wins the game.

I am cold brutal and efficient Town.

[MathBlade]

By reading all these, now I think it'll be easier for town to sort scums on melo/elo by eliminating me today.

Marci

is saying right, they are also an easy target, so we both are towns ig.

ssbm

still town to me, that left:

Dwlee

Not_Mafia

Math

You can go for in this order tomorrow.

UNVOTE: Marci

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

Put your damn vote away. Far as I am concerned if you’re town your play is terrible and if you’re scum you want it. If you wanna help Town case someone if you think Not Mafia should not be the elim.

[MathBlade]

I'm not comfortable betting the game on you picking among three people.

Then who would you?
Assume we elim one town and one scum?

Who would you bet the game on deciding?

Because in the next two days we are in one of three worlds
We elim two scum we win yay
We elim two town we lose boo
Or we elim one town and one scum

My job is to get us to the point we are most likely to win

So if not me, then who?

Sure as hell won’t be you with two people in the PoE breathing down your neck.

[MathBlade]

Not what I asked. Reread it.

I get you’d rather be alive but unless some people change their minds real fast that is antitown.

[MathBlade]

I'm town though

Then act like it and do something.

I have to work now but I wish I could just nuke everyone not confirmed and all it a day.

[MathBlade]

But muuuuuuuuuuuuuuum I don't wanna

First off I am a guy.

Second off you’re really not making a case you’re town here.

[MathBlade]

The hammer on DGB never got town cred >> Owo was in the PoE
Not wanting to vote them can be spun either way.

Salsa self voting I am kinda ignoring because it’s antitown if she is towb and if she is scum she wants her elim.

[MathBlade]

I know there’s a lot of words and stuff I am supposed to read since work just ended I am just not feeling it.

I think we should do NM today since he’s not playing. If y’all feel more confident in a read do it. I just don’t.

VOTE: Not Mafia

[MathBlade]

Votecount:

• Not_Mafia (3): MathBlade, geraintm, Dwlee99
  Salsabil Faria (2): Salsabil Faria, Not_Mafia
  Dwlee99 (1): ssbm_Kyouko

Day 3 will end in (expired on 2021-08-06 08:56:01).
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Spoiler: Votes Since Last Votecount

Personally I think Marci fits the VCA a lot better.

It explains why the wagon stalled. Marci had a lag vote on DGB she planned to move then boom Kyo wagons DGB out of no where and she can’t move it.

Then the rest of us hurry on with the flash wagon and her partner can’t move.

It’s possible that Marci is town and Kyo is a deep wolf but I think it’s more likely Marci here.

VOTE: Marci

Kyo/you/omo but omo is dead now.

VOTE: Unvote

Damn couple things missing here for sure.

Btw, I think it's

Dwlee

&

Marci

...

VOTE: Dwlee

I'm no longer doubting Math, now when considering Marci's DGB vote. I also think scum!Marci is TMIing her partners in RVS if it's {DGB, Marci, Salsabil}.

Titus was also suspicious of Dwlee/omo as a unit I feel like, though she did associate omo and Math, with omo being more likely. I think it's clear her Babysit was meant to be insurance to kill a scumread in the event of her death. I think scum!Math and scum!Dwlee might have been more careful in case Titus targeted one of them. I don't think the scumteam felt they were at risk of being targeted.

That really leaves 2 of Marci, Salsabil, N_M

Wait, I forget about

Not_Mafia

....

Dwlee

's green flip will show the scumteam of

Marci

&

Not_Mafia

.
I'm more sure about

Marci

now than

Dwlee

(want to consider

Omo

's read here), so I'm switching my vote...

UNVOTE: Dwlee

VOTE: Marci

Salsa > Marci > Kyo (except Kyo gives me the deepwolg heebie jeebies)

Ok,

Dwlee

is scum! Partner is either

Marci

or

Not_Mafia

.

UNVOTE: Marci

VOTE: Dwlee

Final vote of today!

I'll edit the votes since last votecount when I'm not on mobile.

[/quote]

VOTE: NM

VOTE: Unvote

I don’t like Dwlee’s naked hop on after having had plenty of time to do a VC or react to cases.

I just can’t tell if this is lazy Dwlee or scum Dwlee. I probably will be busy most of today but will read as I can.

If there is a vigilante or any town killing role I put the odds that "babysitter" is scum north of 80%, regardless of Titus' scummy day play.

VOTE: dwlee

Dwlee/N_M last 2 scum

Ok

Dwlee

, I

think

I can believe you for a short time

UNVOTE: Dwlee

VOTE: Marci

By reading all these, now I think it'll be easier for town to sort scums on melo/elo by eliminating me today.

Marci

is saying right, they are also an easy target, so we both are towns ig.

ssbm

still town to me, that left:

Dwlee

Not_Mafia

Math

You can go for in this order tomorrow.

UNVOTE: Marci

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

Sorry Salsa but I always vote self-voters, including myself

I know there’s a lot of words and stuff I am supposed to read since work just ended I am just not feeling it.

I think we should do NM today since he’s not playing. If y’all feel more confident in a read do it. I just don’t.

VOTE: Not Mafia

[/quote]

At this point there’s so much posting I kinda just wanna just the night to catch up with it.

Does anyone have anything brief they wanna say or any reason why NM should not be the elim?

[MathBlade]

TLDR DWLEE CASE in 2.a.

Votecount:

• Not_Mafia (3): MathBlade, geraintm, Dwlee99
  Salsabil Faria (2): Salsabil Faria, Not_Mafia
  Dwlee99 (1): ssbm_Kyouko

Day 3 will end in (expired on 2021-08-06 08:56:01).
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

At this point there’s so much posting I kinda just wanna just the night to catch up with it.

Does anyone have anything brief they wanna say or any reason why NM should not be the elim?

1. We still have 3 days to deadline
2. N_M's play is not scum-indicative. He is a policy elimination and there is no reason to policy when there exists the following alternatives:
a. Dwlee has been avoidant of questioning and is displaying inconsistencies around their handling of DGB. They have not been solving in a transparently town way, and it is easy to see the difference if you ISO Dwlee here and compare it to a towngame of his. Dwlee did not provide good reasoning to avoid eliminating DGB, and it is clear that they did not read my DGB's ISO through the lens of my case. At the time they ignored my case on DGB, he had me and DGB in his #2 and #3 townreads, but did not consider that he may be wrong on one of us at all. If he had considered it, he would have examined my case to see if it was accurate, but instead he ignored it, read DGB's ISO, and says (paraphrased) "I would only scumread them from meta, but meta is bad, and I don't want to vote them in case they are trying a new playstyle" He goes on to say that around post 260 DGB starts solving, and the solving that is in DGB's ISO is definitely not anything to hang a townread on DGB over. He has weak reasoning to TR DGB, and weak reasoning to not vote it. He also says that him wanting to eliminate N_M is because his POE is Salsabil, Marcistar, and N_M, but Salsabil and Marcistar are not teamed, so that only leaves N_M. When I ask why they are not teamed, he can only point to "vibes" which is again weak/no reasoning. I am also convinced that the usage of "divorced from" for the first time in his site-wide ego is indicative of scum searching for a powerful word to push home an exaggerated deception. He took what I said and bent it ever so slightly so he could interpret it as something else and represented it as such, then said that <that misrepresentation of my point> is divorced from <his original argument>.
b. Salsabil was not self-voting before DGB gained traction, but she began to self-vote as soon as it's wagon took off, with a huge ATE. Today they are again self-voting with ATE, probably so when N_M flips town her D1 play will look less suspicious. Salsabil has been distancing from Dwlee toDay since the moment she and Marcistar were considered a team. She comes in, says Marci and Dwlee are her scumreads, and votes Dwlee. She has to know, as town or scum, that this makes it look obviously like she is partnered with Marcistar. If she were town she would not want to give credence to the prevailing theory, and if she is scum, voting Dwlee there is an easy way to distance since town is already thinking Salsabil and Marcistar are the team. It makes Marci look bad on a Salsabil flip.
3. Math you say you are brutally efficient town. Who of the 4 candidates for elimination will provide the most useful flip for VCA? Certainly not N_M who has self-voted and not voted all game up until very recently toDay. If anything, you eliminating N_M today is contradictory to what you claim to be. Dwlee has actually used his vote in this game and shifted it around various wagons throughout D1.
4. There are actually only a few new pages of posting, and we still have 3 days, and Nights are only 2 days long. You wanting the night to catch up is inconsistent with what you said on D2. You said you asked for the Night 1 phase to be full length (not a quick night) so you could make sense of the voting patterns, but you could not, which indicated a deep wolf. If anything, you're looking to rush the day to an end now that I am building a case on Dwlee. N_M is an easy end of day compromise we're all happy with. There's no reason to end now when we have time to build actual cases and discuss them, when it is guaranteed we will be able to eliminate N_M before deadline.

1. We do. We could have 100. Not seeing how this makes anyone else a better elim.
2. He absolutely is. I do not want a Not Mafia that loves hammering without explanation in elo. There are other possibilities yes but I have faith those two assuming NM is town will follow elo rules. Not Mafia I do not. Leaving him alive is a huge risk. I am not sure if you know just how much of a troll Not Mafia is.
3. Most useful flip for VCA would be you. I also think that your flip would be way too damaging for town if you are town. I will sacrifice my ability for reads for town’s ability to win every time.
4. There is only a few pages but I really feel like my mind is made up here simply based on Not Mafia doing much of anything. If you can convince other people it’s the right thing then I will take another look but I see no reason to be a gambling man. Yes I am being wholly inconsistent but all that’s going on here is words. There’s no vote patterns to analyze so when I do VCA I remember who they pushed and who they didn’t want but not the details because that’s where scum like to get you.

So in short unless I am missing something it’s pretty clear Not Mafia should be the elim here

[MathBlade]

NM needs to go today. I agree people should still contribute but this day should not end on anything but killing him.

That’s a catch 22.

Once you’ve decided someone is an elim anything after that is theater for the next day just scum theater or town theater is tbd. That’s why it’s best to limit it to what is useful.

[MathBlade]

I think theater can be helpful in looking for alignment

Only to a certain extent.

There’s value in brevity.

At some point you reach the “eyes gloss over” point.

When you get to elo/melo and closer to it the cases should be fading away.

For example in a 1v1 and you’re the last Townie deciding the other Townie knows the other person is scum and scum knows the other person is who they have to miselim so their arguments are geared towards that. Instead you look back a few days and some progressions.

[MathBlade]

A good rule of thumb is how many pages of someone repeating the same thing over and over again before you don’t care?

Is it 20? 10? 30? These numbers I ask not in hyperbole but to value how effective the speech is.

[MathBlade]

If you flip town, then either Salsabil or N_M is fine with me as I don't see Marci being scum here, and I only see scum!MathBlade with scum!Dwlee. I would prefer Salsa tomorrow, still for individual reasons, then Final 4 should be Me, Math, Marci, and N_M, and of those 4, N_M is clearly the scum imo. You should agree with me as well because you have vibes that Marci and Salsa are not teamed.

Assuming you are town, can you not see what Salsa is doing today? Why would you want N_M over Salsa? In fact, for anyone who is voting N_M (geraintm I've seen your reasoning but feel free to add more regarding Salsa if you like), why do you want to eliminate N_M

more than

anyone else?

It seems like everyone is afraid of having him in MELO tomorrow, but nobody but geraintm or I have offered reasoning as to why he is scum (that I can recall). The fact that everyone's quietly letting this happen feels wrong - does nobody else get that feeling?

Mine is specifically game control.

I as pretty much confTown in like a majority of worlds should not be tipping my cards to scum at this point.
The entire idea of elo is to force scum to play by a very tight area of control.
Ideally if possible you want to force scum to vote first.

Not Mafia has a penchant for bucking any sort of rule or system set in place which means that if whoever we elim today is town we have a wildcard I can’t predict.

He has been given several chances to show a bare minimum of caring about the game and just hasn’t. Therefore he is either scum or just won’t give a damn in elo.

The more he blatantly trolls the more I think the former.

If I tip my hand too much the way I am thinking then scum adapt the scenario

Take a look at Calculasia where I was scum. Titus played that elo absolutely perfectly the way she was supposed to until she started publicly questioning which teams.

By breaking things down too much you give scum a clear path to victory.
There’s a sweet balance here.

We know the kills scum have to take which are conf town A and B. They have to make those kills OR they will no longer be in control of their vote. By remaining tight lipped at this specific moment whoever is scum doesn’t know I am a threat or not.

Elo is a big game of chicken and almost every time scum vote first town wins and vice versa if ran right.

For me to override what is a superior strategy every single time I have to be convinced that that person is 100000% scummier than someone who is seemingly not playing.

Which to be fair I don’t know if that bar is even possible.

[MathBlade]

If we do Dwlee today and he is town though, that

eliminates deepwolf Math from the likely pairings imo, given.his persistence on N_M today.

That leaves N_M and Salsabil and I feel like in town!Dwlee world there is no way that's not the team.

is this the only reason to eliminate math from a possible paring?

It’s always good to be paranoid and talk things out. I am just literally not in the mood to post atm, kinda sick but if you have questions I will answer.

[MathBlade]

I’ve seen all I need to see I think.

[MathBlade]

ManateeLady please come hammer Not Mafia

[MathBlade]

Not_Mafia (3): MathBlade, geraintm, Dwlee99
Dwlee99 (3): ssbm_Kyouko, Not_Mafia, Salsa

Well fuck.
Dwlee and Not Mafia literally can’t change their vote.
Whichever ManateeLady votes for only gets to N-1.

Kyo seems pretty much set in her ways

Which means it’s likely me and Salsa who determine the elim.

Salsa, what’s it going to take to get you on Not Mafia?

[MathBlade]

Yay! Math still can’t count.

It’s pretty much between Me Marci Salsa and Manatee.

[MathBlade]

This just seems like a desperate attempt not to elim Not Mafia lol. Like that’s just not even worth a response.

[MathBlade]

Math would stake the game on N_M being scum? As in you die tomorrow if he flips town?

I would put the odds pretty high he flips scum.
Bet the game, maybe.
I die tomorrow if he flips scum, no. That would be playing against wincon.
Right now I am playing the game to not lose.
Not Mafia being the elim almost assures that we (town) wins.

If Not Mafia is town and town decides that I am scum for it, then I am the elim.

[MathBlade]

And that would cause us to lose but I don’t think that realistically happens here. I think I have demonstrated how I am town and I have shown it.

Your entire point is not wanting to elim Not Mafia and an exclamation point.

[MathBlade]

Math would stake the game on N_M being scum? As in you die tomorrow if he flips town?

I would put the odds pretty high he flips scum.
Bet the game, maybe.
I die tomorrow if he flips town, no. That would be playing against wincon.
Right now I am playing the game to not lose.
Not Mafia being the elim almost assures that we (town) wins.

If Not Mafia is town and town decides that I am scum for it, then I am the elim.

Merged thoughts sorry I am hella sick

[MathBlade]

an exclamation point.

It could be anything. It doesn't matter how small it is, it is a pattern in your play that is highly indicative of your scumgame and almost never present in your towngame. You are a creature of habit and so you stay consistent in your openings, but subconsciously, something pushes you to add that "!" when you're scum. My guess would be either you enjoy playing scum or you get nervous playing scum and overcompensate. It doesn't matter why you do it though, all that matters is that it is a provable indicator that you are >90% (estimated, the actual percentage will be coming after quotes) likely to be scum here.

I'm going to start getting the quotes now.

Keyword. Almost.

What you have even if you spam the thread with all the evidence in the world that proves your point that I do something more often as scum, this doesn’t demonstrate me being scum this game. Even if I grant your argument, which I don’t, that doesn’t make me scum this game.

So I mean post all the evidence you want but I have elimmed scum D1, tried to stop a mis elim D2, and setting up town to win today. How exactly is that scum?

You on the other hand seen desperate for straws. Especially if I assume Not Mafia scum. You’re trying to pull at literally anything so I do not control the game. This is why I am cagey because scum realize they can’t breathe.

[MathBlade]

Disregard my exclamation point point

VOTE: dwlee

The first time I went through I was looking at Math's whole ego and clicking what looked like Games, then when I went to get quotes I did an advanced search for Author "MathBlade" Return results as "Post Topics" and Search Forums under "Mafia Games" to filter out all the other topics I was sifting through visually the first time.

I've already found 2 towngames in the first 4 or so I opened that have exclamation points, so the presence is not AI after all

Why even look in the first place? What prompted that?

[MathBlade]

You, as town, should have a similar POV to me, as we are both the consensus townreads that are likely to be responsible for the decisionmaking in ELO due to the fact the conftown will die. You should realize, as I have, that there is no risk in outing what we're thinking as town right now - neither of us die before MELO, so our reads will not influence scums' kills, and even if they do, scum have to choose to leave conftown alive to kill either of us. That is what is actually pro-town.

I agree with the first half of this.

As there are two conf towns it remains to the remaining players to argue it out. I have provided an example where likely town lead too hard and lost for it. I am literally arguing for the plan that makes the deep wolfing you suggest rather impossible. If I was scum I could have taken up either the Salsa or Dwlee paths whichever I am not scum with.

Your arguments feel very superficial and not thought out.
Your so concerned with scum data go look at my scum win rate. Go look at the elos played.

If you’re going to make an argument I am scum actually make it.

Like I could make almost anyone except the conf town look like scum with anyone else. The difference is I am not being manipulative here.

I think Not Mafia elim wins us the game. If town disagrees and elims elsewhere it does.

[MathBlade]

I don't care about meta. Dwlee has done nothing this game. When pressured he continues to do nothing. It's egg time

Dwlee has done things?

And what is “egg” time? That has a different meaning than what I think is implied but I am a trans guy so maybe I am reading this wrong?

[MathBlade]

Oh *blush* Thanks for the context.

I don’t think we should elim Dwlee.

Pedit lololol

That’s hilarious.

[MathBlade]

Same question Kyo: Will you bet the game on Dwlee scum? Yes no or maybe?

[MathBlade]

Don’t give me a long winded explanation just the answer

[MathBlade]

Hmm, short answer is no, I wouldn't

Then why would you expect me, who would bet the game on Not Mafia being scum to join you? This is not about asking you to case Dwlee.

Assume I am town, who is scum with them?

[MathBlade]

Unofficial VC because on phone

Votecount:

• Not_Mafia (2): MathBlade, geraintm, Dwlee99
  Dwlee99 (4): ssbm_Kyouko, Not_Mafia,Salsa, Manatee
  Not voting:Marci

Day 3 will end in (expired on 2021-08-06 08:56:01).
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Spoiler: Votes Since Last Votecount

Personally I think Marci fits the VCA a lot better.

It explains why the wagon stalled. Marci had a lag vote on DGB she planned to move then boom Kyo wagons DGB out of no where and she can’t move it.

Then the rest of us hurry on with the flash wagon and her partner can’t move.

It’s possible that Marci is town and Kyo is a deep wolf but I think it’s more likely Marci here.

VOTE: Marci

Kyo/you/omo but omo is dead now.

VOTE: Unvote

Damn couple things missing here for sure.

Btw, I think it's

Dwlee

&

Marci

...

VOTE: Dwlee

I'm no longer doubting Math, now when considering Marci's DGB vote. I also think scum!Marci is TMIing her partners in RVS if it's {DGB, Marci, Salsabil}.

Titus was also suspicious of Dwlee/omo as a unit I feel like, though she did associate omo and Math, with omo being more likely. I think it's clear her Babysit was meant to be insurance to kill a scumread in the event of her death. I think scum!Math and scum!Dwlee might have been more careful in case Titus targeted one of them. I don't think the scumteam felt they were at risk of being targeted.

That really leaves 2 of Marci, Salsabil, N_M

Wait, I forget about

Not_Mafia

....

Dwlee

's green flip will show the scumteam of

Marci

&

Not_Mafia

.
I'm more sure about

Marci

now than

Dwlee

(want to consider

Omo

's read here), so I'm switching my vote...

UNVOTE: Dwlee

VOTE: Marci

Salsa > Marci > Kyo (except Kyo gives me the deepwolg heebie jeebies)

Ok,

Dwlee

is scum! Partner is either

Marci

or

Not_Mafia

.

UNVOTE: Marci

VOTE: Dwlee

Final vote of today!

I'll edit the votes since last votecount when I'm not on mobile.

[/quote]

Spoiler:

VOTE: NM

VOTE: Unvote

I don’t like Dwlee’s naked hop on after having had plenty of time to do a VC or react to cases.

I just can’t tell if this is lazy Dwlee or scum Dwlee. I probably will be busy most of today but will read as I can.

If there is a vigilante or any town killing role I put the odds that "babysitter" is scum north of 80%, regardless of Titus' scummy day play.

VOTE: dwlee

Dwlee/N_M last 2 scum

Ok

Dwlee

, I

think

I can believe you for a short time

UNVOTE: Dwlee

VOTE: Marci

By reading all these, now I think it'll be easier for town to sort scums on melo/elo by eliminating me today.

Marci

is saying right, they are also an easy target, so we both are towns ig.

ssbm

still town to me, that left:

Dwlee

Not_Mafia

Math

You can go for in this order tomorrow.

UNVOTE: Marci

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

Sorry Salsa but I always vote self-voters, including myself

I know there’s a lot of words and stuff I am supposed to read since work just ended I am just not feeling it.

I think we should do NM today since he’s not playing. If y’all feel more confident in a read do it. I just don’t.

VOTE: Not Mafia

[/quote]

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

Sorry Salsa but I always vote self-voters, including myself

Thanks for the scum claim, who are you trying to save?
Btw, don't remember if I say this already but I don’t buy your

I can read

geraintm

read, it’s sounded TMI. And at that point, if you could really read them correctly (while they were not active that much iirr), then you

should

read me properly too, because you were the mod in one of my scum games and you played with town!me in several game as both alignment. Yes, I change my play style recently but why scum!me will play like this, what benefit I'm having rn?

TL;DR you're scum!

UNVOTE: Salsabil Faria

VOTE: Not_Mafia

VOTE: geraintm

I always vote self voters

VOTE: geraintm

VOTE: geraintm

VOTE: not mafia

Voting an innocent child....scummy behaviour

VOTE: dwlww

[/quote]

[MathBlade]

Salsabil would be with Dwlee, or if there is an unclaimed vig, then n_m would be

See you keep saying that there is an unclaimed vig.
I find that just patently untrue.
If a vig existed Not Mafia would be dead already.

Let’s assume for a moment that an unclaimed vig did exist. That would be a third town only role with Friendly Neighbor and IC both being in the game. This means 3 confirmed town roles. Vig confirms with two deaths in a night, FN and Ic confirm by action. Even if Titus didn’t claim D1 that’s three instant lock confirm roles. That almost certainly doesn’t pass review as conf town would be forced to be in elo in almost every way the game progresses.

[MathBlade]

I asked you if you'd stake the game on it because it feels like the way that you (and dwlee?) are saying that I want to eliminate anyone

but

N_M feels like one of you knows he will flip scum, and I thought if that someone was you that I might bait you into saying you would.

Pedit: I just played a large normal with dwlee with a similar ratio of conftown

It certainly feels like you have had a pattern of anyone but Not Mafia today. You’ve ignored G’s case on Not Mafia, flooded the thread with long wall posts with multiple other suspects. As I have stated Not Mafia is a literal troll player to me. I worry about him if he’s ever pro town.

I think furthermore if you genuinely believed that you’d be taking the free scum then hunting in me+Dwlee the next day.

The fact you’re not and saying no means something here.

Pedit: It’s possible scum have a PR of some kind which is why I delayed an answer hoping they would but I doubt it. The roleblocker/stopper would have to be on Manatee every night. While it is possible if you give scum more power, if someone claims vig without using it I would probably vote the vig for not shooting Not Mafia here.

It can’t be you because you would just vig if you didn’t get your way, you’re fighting too hard.

It can’t be me because I am not a vig.

So the only options at that point are Dwlee Salsa Not Mafia and Marci for a vig.
Unlikely Not Mafia because of play and just he doesn’t seem to care
So you’re down to two people you potentially see as a team together and Marci.

Odds are no vig exists.

[MathBlade]

Without knowing scum's power we have no way of knowing what is balanced

I think we can assume all town have true claimed though. I just don’t see how this balances out without just three goons.

Pedit: Pretty much that.

Because if a vig exists and tries to hero this and loses us the game after all the work I did I am gonna cry.

[MathBlade]

Or... We could kill NM today. Because probably no vigilante and he isn't even trying

This

[MathBlade]

I am not comfortable making a snap decision like that while civ game is starting.

It felt like you ignored G’s case Kyo.

I don’t townread Salsa if the votes went that way so I would hammer.

[MathBlade]

I will write something up more verbose probably tomorrow if I can. This is an elite game and critical role + work tomorrow.

I just glazed over half way through most of your walls and just was like “So?” On like 90% if it. Felt like filler.

[MathBlade]

Responses in bold and underline because mobile

Individual reads:

Me
(for math)
Conftown people

Math/Kyo

Salsa/Marci

NM

Together reads: my gut is telling me NM + a deep wolf, but obviously this doesn't match with the individual reads in a quantifiable way. Might be as simple as NM + one of Marci/salsa.

I don't really think that Marci and salsa are scum together though? Based on what I've seen?

Individual reads indicate Salsa and Marci in the same tier as scumreads above N_M. Together reads says Marci and Salsa are no scum together, Based on

what Dwlee has seen

.

Unless deepwolf I feel okay about Kyo and Mathblade. My vibe tells me salsa and Marci aren't both scum at the very least.

That leaves you

This is the reason that N_M goes down to the bottom of the readslist - because Salsa and Marci are not scum together. It's not a good reason, so I questioned Dwlee about his reasoning, and he's dancing around giving a concrete reason to why they are not scum together. Just "vibes", but below we will see what "vibes" means in context.

I don’t see why it’s not a good reason. I have formed reads based on who is a compatible read a lot of times. Vibes can be a thing.

Green is my inserts into the below

Why are Marci and Salsa not scum together? I thought you just pointed out at the start of this Day it makes sense for them to be scum together because when Salsa suspected either you or Marci she voted you?

There's some credibility to it, sure, but I don't really buy it. Vibes don't match

This is where he brings up Vibes. I quote reply to this post and ask if N_M's vibes match with anyone. It is clear we are talking about the same "vibes" from above

Do N_M's vibes match with anyone?

Given that he has hardly posted? Yea. I could see him teamed with you, Marci, or Salsa.

Dwlee says "yea", implying that the same type of vibes that make Marci and Salsa not teamed, are present between N_M and {myself, Marci, and Salsa}, because any of us can be his partner in Dwlee's eyes. "Vibes" can be translated to teammate equity here, and if we're talking about the same vibes as he was originally saying make Salsa and Marci unlikely partners, he's talking about negative equity. This is what I point out in the next reply.

So by "Vibes don't match", you aren't even talking about vibes... you're talking about teammate equity. That is something that can be quantified. Show me, with evidence, the posts that indicate negative equity between salsa and marci.

Kyo if you're gonna call me scummy for using a word/phrase that perfectly describes how you said I meta townread DGB, I don't care to have this conversation.

Titus did literally no solving. That is why she was my priority at that point in the game. I found DGB scummy only in a meta sense, and that is why I didn't vote there.

Vibes don't match clearly meant teammate vibes, and no, vibes can't be quantified

. They just don't seem to both be evil.

Now he is saying it meant teammate vibes which is somehow different from teammate equity in his eyes? And refusing to quantify what is negative equity between because they're just teammate "vibes", not teammate "equity" (which are clearly, in context of 1783, the same thing). Then he says "they just don't both seem to be evil." This isn't even on the topic of teammate equity anymore, as he doesn't mention "evil together." So now he's slipping he doesn't SR one of them, imo, which is not in line with either the reads he posted earlier today, or the reasoning for voting N_M.

The read of this argument becomes logically inconsistent as you have replaced vibes with teammate equity. Vibes is not teammate equity though. So you’ve rewritten Dwlee’s posts and then “destroyed” something Dwlee never said. So the rest of this post becomes …So? You’re not responding to what Dwlee’s posts are you’re responding through a thick layer of accidental mistranslation if town and purposeful if scum. Vibes does not translate into another concept

[MathBlade]

Kyo if you're gonna call me scummy for using a word/phrase that perfectly describes how you said I meta townread DGB, I don't care to have this conversation

I've caught scum with this before. I don't think it's natural language coming from you and it looks worse to me that you're brushing it off.

And if you want to continue to split hairs, I didn't say

you townread DGB for meta reasons

. I said

you used meta as a reason not to vote it, rather than examining the veracity of my case on DGB

. It's a subtle difference between "townreading" and "not scumreading", but the way you leap from "not scumreading" -

over

my point on examining DGB's ISO through the lens of the case in good faith - to the subtly different "townreading", and then say my point is "divorced from" your argument indicates to me that I'm onto something here and you're blowing a subtle difference out of proportion with strong languaging that you don't normally use on site.

It's not only that you're slightly misunderstanding a subtlety, but that you're then blowing the part that you misunderstand out of proportion, with unnatural language that you don't normally use,

and ignoring

the clear-cut point that cannot be misunderstood. And I know you understand subtlety, because when you were arguing with Roden earlier, one of your arguments against them was that they were not making a good faith effort to repeat back what you said. What they said was that you wanted to vote me out because I was pushing you. What you wrote was more along the lines of "Kyouko is scummy because she should know that town!me has a problem with his attention span", (from memory, feel free to correct if this is wrong)

VOTE: Kyo
This might be scum. The inattentiveness thing is a very strange thing to push me on and I think town!Kyo knows I sometimes am just like that.

I know vibe checking is punishable by death at this point, but man the vibes on this read feel off. Do you really think Kyouko should go just because she made a push on you?

Uh no and I don't think this is a good faith attempt at repeating back what I said at all.

I didn't repeat anything back. How else am I supposed to interpret your post if your only accusation against Kyouko is "she should know that I don't pay attention"?

You said I voted Kyo for pushing me. If that's your interpretation you're severely misreading what I'm writing or trying to misrep me to make me look scummy.

If town, you mean you’ve gotten lucky and the person happened to be scum.
Some people use phrases more or less than others.
You haven’t demonstrated why this phrase is scummy and the rest of this post follows the idea that a certain phrase is scummy which I don’t subscribe to which again makes the rest of this … So?

If you don’t prove the premises/prior parts I find it very difficult to engage with the rest of the content because it’s flawed.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: ssbm_Kyouko

She attempted to try to peddle Dwlee and Salsa as miselims rather than vote her buddy. I think the case speaks for itself here. I would be shocked if we had a day 5.

[MathBlade]

I think Math is town after that. He could just have easily gotten support for Marci for quickhammering on D2, as his point was neither of them should be around for ELO. If Math was scum with N_M he could have pushed Marci instead.

Pedit: You need to consider who else is scum because the game does not end with me.

Then help me do that. If you’re town point me in the right direction. You’re right in that if I was scum I could have taken up any of the other wagons that popped up and didn’t. Imagine this was elo and you and i conf and it was elim or lose. Who goes for you and why?

[MathBlade]

The one thing giving me pause on is would scum!Kyo be that obvious there? Too scummy to be scum?

I don’t think it’s too scummy to be scum there. Too scummy to be scum would be an outright defense. What Kyo did was continually suggest other people.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: N_M meta

Lmao, just went to read some N_M games and the first one I open is a nightless micro where he gets hammered on page 1 as VT

Still looking, just thought I'd share.

This is also the extent of her attempting to meta Not Mafia versus say me.

For me she seems to be trying to find anything to scumify me and when it didn’t work she backed off.

It’s more like she’s scum who didn’t like I had her buddy pinned.

[MathBlade]

She either A> has some software to read that many games that quickly >> In this case why not Not Mafia?
B> She spent read a lot of my games >> In this case why not Not Mafia who usually has way less of a post count.
Or C > The argument was preprepared in advance and she couldn’t build a similar one for Not Mafia.

Is it possible she is town of course? Probable is a whole nother matter and I just don’t see that.

[MathBlade]

Seeing it was N_M and DGB so far that have flipped, whoever the third scum is was entirely alone D1, and was probably alone in choosing the NK. Personally I think this points the most towards Marci and Dwlee, but if Salsabil is town the play has just been atrocious. I couldn't make sense of it.

If I had to pick one player right now I really dont know. I was reading a lot of Roden overnight once I realized that the scumflips meant the third scum was essentially alone due to DGB and N_M's activity. This led me towards either Marci or Dwlee, as Roden was pushing on them both and was TRing DGB until I wagoned it. He was blind to DGB until I pointed it out. Before that, he was pressuring Marci and a little bit Dwlee, but my impression was it was mostly pressure on Marci. He came back around to pushing Dwlee in twilight, going so far as to tell him to "enjoy his babysit" iirc. I dont have my notes handy atm.

I still think we can look at the FN crumb and the Babysitter claim and question why it was Roden over a PR, and why was it Roden over me? It's easy to say Roden over me because I'm scum, but I found a readslist of Roden's that I think is kinda my salvation. He has me, DGB, as high TRs, and N_M as a townlean. Why do I, in that situation, flashwagon DGB at the end of the day and then kill a widely TRed player that considered me a part of their townblock? I, as scum, would probably shoot Titus there to kill the Babysitter while there are more town available and she is statistically more likely to target town than mafia.

So it comes back to, why was Roden killed over a PR? Easy enough to say if they saw the FN crumb that they figured Titus would have too, and thought she could protect Manatee. Also easy enough to say the last scum didnt want to risk being targeted by Titus. I think Roden was killed because he was pushing Dwlee and Marci. If he was killed for being TRed it would have been me, so there must have been another reason.

I think the simple answer is you shot her to avoid potentially being guarded for leading the DGB wagon.

If we assume not you then it would probably have to me someone not attentive and I don’t know Salsa and Marci enough to make that determination but probably not Dwleee

[MathBlade]

The one thing giving me pause on is would scum!Kyo be that obvious there? Too scummy to be scum?

I don’t think it’s too scummy to be scum there. Too scummy to be scum would be an outright defense. What Kyo did was continually suggest other people.

I did this twice in Owners Market Blitz. Once on D1, Gamma was bussing his partner and I argued that Kitty (his partner) seemed like the "default" elimination. I fought for it to be anyone but Kitty, even directly appealed to Gamma to vote out a townie instead, and he didn't budge. I got flak for it from Nancy all game and I lived to MELO with Nancy, Marci, and Something_Smart

In MELO, I cased everyone. I wrote walls upon walls on every player, and I almost died for it because I was pushing everyone. In the end, Nancy and I caught S_S, but it was too late and we missed deadline and got a no elim. S_S killed Nancy and nearly convinced Marci to vote me out in ELO. But we won it. I'm a bit paranoid that scum!Marci is looking to imitate her OMB play in this game to trick me because I did TR her yesterday.

Link me?

I will take a look Sunday, but I think you’re the most probable atm. I will take a look and see but I have thought for the longest time that there’s a deep wolf and this really matches. I am really scared of the world if you’re town here

[MathBlade]

@Kyo how did Not Mafia flipping goon change your reads if at all?

[MathBlade]

salsa>marci wins us the game i think

See I am pretty sure it’s not Dwlee, my gut says to go along with Salsa or Marci, but I am scared of you powerwolfing Kyo from a logical standpoint.

Can you give me your best deep wolf game to read Sunday?

[MathBlade]

salsa>marci wins us the game i think

See I am pretty sure it’s not Dwlee, my gut says to go along with Salsa or Marci, but I am scared of you powerwolfing Kyo from a logical standpoint.

Can you give me your best deep wolf game to read Sunday?

The deep wolf question was to Kyo. My bad that’s unclear.

[MathBlade]

Marci vote parking on DGB is indicative of something and I can't figure out what.

I think based on D1 Kyo/Marci is much more likely.

Like too much points this to be Kyo and I will have time Sunday to read but I also don’t like how in her latest post she’s all like “yeah elim Salsa then if that fails no elim” when no elim changes like nothing. I die and it’s the same PoE if Salsa is town.

So like ??? If anything if Salsa is town we just run the 4P melo.

[MathBlade]

Marci vote parking on DGB is indicative of something and I can't figure out what.

I think based on D1 Kyo/Marci is much more likely.

Like too much points this to be Kyo and I will have time Sunday to read but I also don’t like how in her latest post she’s all like “yeah elim Salsa then if that fails no elim” when no elim changes like nothing. I die and it’s the same PoE if Salsa is town.

So like ??? If anything if Salsa is town we just run the 4P melo.

Theres a chance you or I die at 4 if we no lim and it could help the last town if they're paranoid of one of us. Will look for a deep wolf game of mine. Already posted all my old games, it's been a few years though so I'll have to look at them myself first. I've had 2 scum games since coming back and they were both bad performances.

No there isn’t.

Assume a you + me + scum + one Townie combo.

It literally does not serve scum’s interest to kill there if your theory is true because you said it aloud.

[MathBlade]

I will add it to my read on Sunday list. It’s kinda massive.

[MathBlade]

Votecount:

• ssbm_Kyouko (1): MathBlade,Salsa
  Salsabil Faria (1): ManateeDude

Day 4 will end in (expired on 2021-08-14 17:26:01).
With 6 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate.

Fixing VC. Anyone have questions before I start the shit ton amount of reading there is?

[MathBlade]

I started reading and something came up…

Like 300+ posts in another game is a lot.

I don’t like Salsa voting Kyo here after my vote

VOTE: Unvote

Like I still scumread Kyo but the optics of that are weird.

Will try to read more later

[MathBlade]

I don’t like Salsa voting Kyo here after my vote.

Next time pm me before you'll post here or vote anyone after seeing my vote, I'll not complain.

That’s against site rules.

You can’t be PMing other players during the game about the game.

And I don’t have to vote somewhere else when I am not sure. This is needle in a haystack and I have two guesses.

[MathBlade]

I don’t like Salsa voting Kyo here after my vote.

Next time pm me before you'll post here or vote anyone after seeing my vote, I'll not complain.

That’s against site rules.

You can’t be PMing other players during the game about the game.

And I don’t have to vote somewhere else when I am not sure. This is needle in a haystack and I have two guesses.

Google sarcasm

Sorry my sarcasm detector is busted.

[MathBlade]

Kyo if you’re sure of your case why are you not voting?

[MathBlade]

I think my order is Salsa > Kyo > Marci here.

Sometimes I swap them but I think that’s pretty much the PoE.

I would like to reserve hammer to make sure no one has any questions.

[MathBlade]

I think my order is Salsa > Kyo > Marci here.

Sometimes I swap them but I think that’s pretty much the PoE.

I would like to reserve hammer to make sure no one has any questions.

Music to my ears

But you should consider

Dwlee

ig, on the next day I mean.

I always reconsider everyone I just haven’t seen him scum yet and I mean like if the million word tome (hyperbole) and me rereading the game before today I don’t see it then I probably won’t.

If you flip town I would probably do another reread just to kinda steady myself as tomorrow would be a last shot of sorts.

[MathBlade]

Yes it was the flip-flop that I thought was accurate.

I will just reiterate that I would never kill Titus there because I think I was just as likely her shot as Omo was. I think that kill should basically locktown me.

I think I agree with your order @Math, it's the same as my order from yesterday, I think I'm just a little concerned about Marci maybe? She ~feels~ town and I think so does Kyo, which makes me think we just win off of killing Salsa, but if we are wrong on Salsa I'll be confused.

I view this as more a battle of PoE. We have two shots to get it right. Eventually we have to guess somewhere. If we are wrong we reread overnight and try again.

I think this, worst case scenario, is you and me deciding Kyo or Marci.

[MathBlade]

Then let’s do it
VOTE: Salsa

[MathBlade]

I think two scum of any pairing alive would be incredibly unlikely as Not Mafia died.
If any two scum pairing exists, I’d be okay losing to that group and wish them a GG.
While possible I don’t find it in any realm probable.

[MathBlade]

I see no reason not to wait for Manatee and Marci here.

[MathBlade]

@Dwlee

, are you really waiting for

Manatee

or

Marci

, or you just don't want to hammer and use this as a WIFOM strategy for the Day 5 (like this:

if I were scum I used the opportunity right way to hammer

Salsabil

but I didn't because I'm town

Another thing was in my mind but didn't ask before (because it wasn't a nice thinking )... when

Saudade

kept using the L word, you kept telling him that

you can't use the word

but never attached the reason but when the mod declared the force replacement news, you shared the link where details are attached. My thinking was that scum!you saw the opportunity where a slot can be modkilled and you shut your mouth.....

1) I am Saudade slot
2) If the offense was modkillable I immediately pm the mod and then if they say no get a list mod immediately.

I think that even if this is true (which it’s not) it’s extremely low brow.

Dwlee is of upstanding character whatever their alignment.

[MathBlade]

I had a dream over the weekend that dwlee was actually masons with saudade the whole time

Much as I wish this was true, 4 conf town against 2 goons and another scum doesn’t really make much sense.
Maybe just spiritual masons since i townread Dwlee and I think they townread me.

Pretty sure we’re just waiting on T3 anyway.

[MathBlade]

Imho it’s between Kyo and Marci for the final scum. I have work but will check back later tonight. I think they should give their cases on scum.

[MathBlade]

I think this kinda doesn’t really matter to no lim Dwlee. I would rather sort this out with you rather than one of us guess wrong.

I think scum either no kill or kill me if we no elim.

I think both of us sorting this out together gives the best chance at victory.

[MathBlade]

Except it’s not. There’s a specific ending called everyone lives. I will need to look up normal rules to see if that is a thing.

[MathBlade]

Lol

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16287

There’s actually a big forum discussion on it with different opinions.

It’s my thought we play through the day as if elimming but we have it in our pocket

[MathBlade]

Pretty much after a set number of no elims no kills the game ends in a draw.

If town thinks they lose by elimming they don’t elim.
And if scum thinks they lose by killing they don’t kill.

So it becomes an everyone lives draw which is unsatisfactory

[MathBlade]

I am getting ready to go to a dinner sorry. You voted for fast night. Why did you vote for fast night if you didn’t know?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: no elim

I hate this vote. We know scum have to kill now or lose. Why would you cut day short before getting reads from everyone we can use tonight?

[MathBlade]

Oh I thought fast night had to be universal

[MathBlade]

VOTE: no elim

I hate this vote. We know scum have to kill now or lose. Why would you cut day short before getting reads from everyone we can use tonight?

Getting reads from everyone right now will inform scum's kill decision. I don't think anyone but me has been rereading overnight anyways, and I did my reread last night. I'm ready for final 3, don't need additional reads from anyone.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Someone will likely die tonight and we want their opinion before end of day so we have it in elo.

[MathBlade]

What I was saying earlier relied on the usual interpretation is that no elim no kill ends in a draw or happily every after and everyone lives.

Since this is not the case the answer changed.

[MathBlade]

I actually thought the norm in repeated no kill/no elim was for mafia to win and town to lose, not for a draw or for both to lose, but knowing it's lose lose I'm prepared to go through 3 no lims without discussion to force mafia to lose or make the least possibly informed decision

I was going to just try no lim once and see if mafia would kill

Norm is usually everyone lives and kumbayah/draw to prevent gaming the system.

Lemme find a game with it later tonight

[MathBlade]

viewtopic.php?p=12670439#p12670439

Not a game but essentially the first side to do the standoff would lose usually or just a draw.

I have civ tonight so I can’t find the other game like I wanted.

[MathBlade]

I want to see what’s on other people’s minds for when I die. Kyo said she won’t >> Huge FoS.

[MathBlade]

I will hammer no elim once Dwlee and Marci are done conversing I see no reason to do so now.

Also once the rules are set they are set. The mod changing this towards a standard implementation of win con game or any other means would be mod interference. I wish some things were certain ways but it becomes a move on thing.

[MathBlade]

@Dwlee got anything?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: No Elim

Not sure if votes were reset from T3’s post but this should definitely hammer it.

[MathBlade]

I think it’s Kyo. Kyo didn’t want Not Mafia to die.
Kyo kills you or me she just instantly dies as it’s obvious.

I think Kyo’s only hope is to try to make us paranoid.

I just want to see how she enters to make sure this is right.

[MathBlade]

So I had decided yesterday that dwlee was town and most likely Marci was the last scum, I did not read anymore last night but I did read 2 nights ago and that's why I wanted to keep quiet yesterday.

Math keeps me alive because deepwolf. I keep math alive because deepwolf.

Math what conclusions did you draw from your sunday read from 1-2 Sundays ago?

This is horribly vague and meaningless. If you mean two weeks ago I barely remember what I ate let alone which posts I read. Most of the past few days has been about making sure we have the best chance at winning. I'm getting ready for my weekly game night tonight.

[MathBlade]

I also dont kill Marci though as scum because I just went to 3p lylo with her in OMB where we were both town and successfully convinced her to vote scum. I think scum!me is the only one who would not be threatened in 3p by her being indecisive

Says you don't kill Marci as scum, then literally follows it up with why scum you kills Marci lmao

[MathBlade]

Math why is it Dwlee, and Dwlee why is it math?

I don't think it's Dwlee lol. I could fake case them but i think that's incredibly dishonest when I don't think it's them.

[MathBlade]

But like since you asked, if it was me I don't kill Marci there. I just kill math and vote Marci tomorrow. You and Marci cross voting would be completely inevitable imo

My thoughts on the matter were: if math dies, I kill Marci. If I die, it's probably Math but I'm dead so can't do anything about it, cause somewhere along the way I realized I think Kyo is town. I didn't really prepare for this situation though, and Math!scum screwed up by not killing me, and Kyo!scum screwed up by not killing Math.

Dwlee you know my scum game. Assume I am scum incorrectly. How often do I "mess up"?

[MathBlade]

Lol you should be telling me why it's math tbh

Because math hasn't actually solved anything this game and for all he said he would be reading on that sunday he didnt actually read any of it. He went through the trouble of asking for my.scumgames but didnt follow up. He talks about proper procedures and offers mechanical advice, but doesnt actually scumhunt.

I was going to have you two.convince me of who it was if Math had actually read, but it seems that was just him looking busy

VOTE: math

Gl dwlee

VOTE: Kyo

Called it.

[MathBlade]

I don't know why both math and me are alive and it's fucking me up

It's simple imho.
Kyo can't kill you, else I vote her based on yesterday play. If I'm alive I have to be shaded.
She can't kill me else it becomes a cross vote with her and Marci and she's stuck having to convince you Marci is scum.
Or she can kill Marci and try to convince you I am scum. This one is the easier sell for her.

If I was scum I kill Kyo here.
You'd be in my pocket in this case and I just use that and sell Marci hard.

[MathBlade]

Lol you should be telling me why it's math tbh

Because math hasn't actually solved anything this game and for all he said he would be reading on that sunday he didnt actually read any of it. He went through the trouble of asking for my.scumgames but didnt follow up. He talks about proper procedures and offers mechanical advice, but doesnt actually scumhunt.

I was going to have you two.convince me of who it was if Math had actually read, but it seems that was just him looking busy

VOTE: math

Gl dwlee

This is also crap. You know my scum game Dwlee. I always read anything that would help my game whatever my alignment. Kyo on the other hand doesn't know I always eventually catch up on things.

Pedit: Scum!Kyo doesn't know you did that though.

[MathBlade]

How do you not? You and I have played in a lot of games together and most of my games are scum. Lemme go look up some samples.

[MathBlade]

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=66833&hilit=Dwlee

Scum game with you town me scum.

That game may be years old but usually I'm pretty memorable.

[MathBlade]

Scum sweeps are very very rare on MS so I figured you'd remember.

[MathBlade]

Lmao so when I summoned voltron to destroy DGB its partner literally bussed with the 6th vote

I mean you can argue that when you want, but that game literally disproves your argument. I'm very good at manipulating people to do what I want when I'm scum. There just isn't that here.

[MathBlade]

Like literally every argument you've had for scum has been wrong Kyo. None of it applies to me at all. You fucked up by pushing me and should have pushed Dwlee here. Dwlee matches your theories. I do not match them. Instead you pitched the theories for where you wanted town to be instead of what was real.

Who tried to stop the Max miselim? This guy.
Who tried to get Not Mafia elimmed? This guy. Who tried to stop it? You.
Who has been sus'ing you for a while? Me.

Yes I didn't know DGB was scum on D1, but sheeping the wagon turned out pretty well. I'll take it.

My theory is you popped on DGB and didn't expect it to take off so fast which is kinda a newbie scum mistake. You should have kept pushing one of the two wagons.

[MathBlade]

You kept me as a "town lock" because you thought I'd never suspect you and you knew I'd never be elimmed. It's a free useless read.

You spam the thread with a lot of words to seem like you are hunting but you're not. It's a common deep wolf strategy as people tend to town read lots and lots of words and effort versus judging the player. It's an inherent bias.

[MathBlade]

Game night is starting in a few minutes.

Best wishes on your decision Dwlee. If you got questions I will try to answer on my phone as I can.

[MathBlade]

Five years ago. I don't even remember what I ate last week lol

Some things are more memorable than others.

[MathBlade]

He hadn't done anything scummy besides self-vote, which is normal behavior for him, and I could see reasons that you, marci, Salsa, and Math could be scum. N_M was a policy elim for everyone on board (except Math, just bussing) and he happened to be scum

Actually he had. How much have you played with Not Mafia?

[MathBlade]

Not Mafia is hammer happy.

Not Mafia has no hammers. Means he is much more likely to be scum.

[MathBlade]

The police are coming for you Mana

also Saudade crumbed cop

Not a crumb that’s RVS reaction testing.

Cop crumbs are a lot more subtle on site depending upon who you are

[MathBlade]

Not Mafia is hammer happy.

Not Mafia has no hammers. Means he is much more likely to be scum.

This is the first time you're providing this evidence. If you had told me this 2 days ago I would have read N_M games to look for this pattern, confirmed it if it's really true, and happily voted him out. You didn't provide evidence though because it looks better for you the longer I resist the wagon

Correct.

If you provide damning evidence scum and town hop on and it’s game over for reads.

[MathBlade]

Since Not Mafia wasn’t playing it was more important to see who resisted it.

[MathBlade]

Dead thread rn:

Spoiler:

I don’t get it?

[MathBlade]

NM was scum by PoE.

For you maybe, because you were in the POE that Math, myself, and conftown were working from. You had a pool of 3 and 2 mislims left, so fypov there was no risk in voting N_M. For me, I had 4 in the POE, a sneaking suspicion on Math, and 2 mislims. It was much harder for me to POE down to N_M than you, even after I read enough to determine that Marci was actually town after all, which I had done on D4

You mean you lock town me earlier when it suited you.

You were the one in control of the PoE/gamestate not me.

[MathBlade]

Fuck it what about this iso?
Desperately flocking to the prevailing wagons seemingly for no reason, assuming they're both town, 962 is the perfect time to make that post as scum. You get the towncred but also the prevailing wagons are TvT and it's safe to do so.

No content. Flip-flops onto town wagons without reason. Tries to scoop up low-hanging towncred. Yeet

VOTE: DrippingGoofball

VOTE: DGB

TRing everyone on this wagon.

VOTE: DGB

Ditto.

Oh and not sure if anyone saw a recent WWF ad? It’s so cute I just have to share it.



Show love to people <3

I mean you can try to argue I am scum here because flash wagon but I think you were going for a no elim and setting up for future days.

[MathBlade]

Your entire argument about the DGB wagon was “Math has a life therefore he is scum” Lmao

[MathBlade]

@Math:
1.

How is it important?

2. How did you get

this

from 2277?

NM was scum by PoE.

For you maybe, because you were in the POE that Math, myself, and conftown were working from. You had a pool of 3 and 2 mislims left, so fypov there was no risk in voting N_M. For me, I had 4 in the POE, a sneaking suspicion on Math, and 2 mislims. It was much harder for me to POE down to N_M than you, even after I read enough to determine that Marci was actually town after all, which I had done on D4

You mean you lock town me earlier when it suited you.

You were the one in control of the PoE/gamestate not me.

Also, not sure how or why me being in control of the PoE/gamestate is relevant, but it is an incorrect conclusion. You were in control that day. I tried to convince everyone to vote Dwlee or Salsa, possibly Marci early on that day, but in the end we all voted for N_M, who you had been bussing all day. If anyone was in control of the gamestate, it was you. Again though, I don't see how this is relevant. Just pointing out it's wrong.

How is who resisted a prob scum wagon important? Lol.

You indeed were in control. I stated facts calmly and convinced people NM. You flailed after.

[MathBlade]

Like the question is absurd.

[MathBlade]

Your entire argument about the DGB wagon was “Math has a life therefore he is scum” Lmao

I never said anything like this, can you quote whatever it is you are "paraphrasing" (twisting) and explain how you got from my post to your misrep?

Math wasn’t at the front of the DGB wagon therefore he is scum.

I had posted before the flash wagon I would be afk then popped on it when I came online.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: DGB

TRing everyone on this wagon.

VOTE: DGB

Ditto.

Oh and not sure if anyone saw a recent WWF ad? It’s so cute I just have to share it.



Show love to people <3

Civ break is over bbs

[MathBlade]

The entire flash wagon took place while I was offline for the most part.

Hence “flash” wagon.

[MathBlade]

I mean scum resist scum wagon. It’s kinda obvious.

I start the day with a Marci + Salsa
You buddy me with Marci + Salsa + NM
Then you call for mass claim
The day was dominated by you then me and G were not mafia pushers.
Just because the final elim was on not mafia does not mean “in control”

That elim was hard fought for

[MathBlade]

Because A) I don’t do read walls and B) was communicating to Titus Manatee was friendly neighbor

The wagon had steam I didn’t know if Titus saw the crumb.

Like this is seriously pointless. I know you’re scum and you have to shade me.

Why are you so concerned about trying to make a gotcha versus waiting to see what questions Dwlee has?

You look like floundering scum here and are literally sinking yourself.

[MathBlade]

Just realized the pedit stopped this post before I went to my next one:

ATTENTION ALL VANITY VOTERS:

Dwlee99 (1):

Titus

DrippingGoofball (1):

marcistar

Salsabil Faria (1):

geraintm

Not_Mafia (1):

Not_Mafia

You don't want to miss the 5:15 to Limtown.

Owo is a vanity wagon. Much as I would love their elim they aren’t for today.

Koba’s consistency is bad as either alignment and the best way to read them is under pressure and when they are under pressure they get yelly and screamy. While Owo is my top wagon I would love to elim best not today unfortunately because if we try odds are we no elim.

Remember when I caught DGB with 962 and a bad ISO? 977 is looking a lot like 962 in retrospect. Also, the things you were posting around then indicated you wanted to keep the vote on one of the current wagons

to avoid a no lim

, but when you joined DGB's wagon, it was not

to avoid a no lim

. I think you were just looking for some towncred since it was too late to stop the wagon.

The bolded is correct I had a scumread on Looker so it wasn’t to avoid a no elim.

You didn’t catch what you already knew.

You just didn’t expect it to take off.

This is pointless repetitive spam.

[MathBlade]

Waiting for the wall and not voting based on the dream even though I want to.

I had a question and it evaded my mind. Maybe I'll remember later

If you do you do.

At this point my case is pretty clear.

I can go back and forth with Kyo but it’s pointless.

Yes I said NM was policy and already explained why I didn’t provide why.

You didn’t want to meta read your buddy because you’d be screwed.

It’s pretty simple.

I have to work. Game is in your hands Dwlee if you have questions lemme know.

[MathBlade]

Waiting for the wall and not voting based on the dream even though I want to.

I had a question and it evaded my mind. Maybe I'll remember later

If you do you do.

At this point my case is pretty clear.

I can go back and forth with Kyo but it’s pointless.

Yes I said NM was policy and already explained why I didn’t provide why.

You didn’t want to meta read your buddy because you’d be screwed.

It’s pretty simple.

I have to work. Game is in your hands Dwlee if you have questions lemme know.

>You haven't posted a case on me
>You're now backtracking because you're caught lying about why you voted for N_M (you also awkwardly voted for DGB for the wrong reason, if you were town you would have been voting for a scumread, but that was a fake scumread all along)
>You and I both know there is no point in metaing N_M

I have. I just need less words.

I did not lie. I was manipulative but I did not lie.

I disagree here.

If Dwlee has questions or how I can help them sort I will. But I think my play speaks for itself when it’s clear I am town.

Sure anyone looking hard enough can probably find a contradiction or two or where I misremember something. Anyone can case anyone.

The difference is sorting through it.

[MathBlade]

Math, did you or did you not read any of Large 233, or my deepwolf game?

If you did, what did you think?

I did. I just can’t type what I read at work.

[MathBlade]

Math did you think I was paranoid of you last day phase?
Same question to Kyo.

Yes but no? I think you were tight lipped towards me but I figured it was you being smart but I didn’t attribute it to me directly,

[MathBlade]

I didnt care what you were thinking last day phase because I'd townbinned you the Night before and I was suspicious of Math/Marci. I became increasingly suspicious of Math when he started to change his tune on giving reads before ELO, so I hunkered down on pushing for no lim and tried not to comment on much else.

I don't remember thinking you were suspicious of me, but even if I had thought that, I wouldnt really care whether you were, because you were going to no lim, and if you had suspicions on me I would deal with them today if you were still alive

Again when day started I completely expected this to have to be an elo due to draw rules and expected there to an elim that day.

[MathBlade]

Kyo is going to seem town because that’s what she’s good at.

I don’t do cases I usually do sheer force of will and logic.

I will do my best tonight but that’s not my strong suit.

[MathBlade]

Sorry had stuff come up. I will try to get this tonight

[MathBlade]

The case for Kyo (Chronological)

(Bold and underlined I think are more damning)
----- DAY ONE ------

• Chainsaw defends looker, then votes Looker, then after very little time switches to Roden despite scumreading them both. She never pushed Looker at all and immediately goes for Roden.
  
  Spoiler: Support posts

  VOTE: looker
  
  @looker any reason u havent lay down a vote?

  Hello.
  It's 5am here, and I'm spending the day decorating:(

  VOTE: Titus

  Disagree. Hilarious.

  Disagree with your disagree
  
  VOTE: Looker

  general consensus seems to be a dislike of their entry which i think is pretty nai

  translation: stop wagoning my partner for wrong reasons

  Hero solve: Max + Manatee + Marci

  How serious is this?

  Didn't get an answer to this.

  {Looker, Roden, ???}

  Everything up to 172 is RVS, but in no way does it try to get out of RVS

  Hi I'm a miller

  Would you happen to be...Informed?

  informed of DN

  What is DN?

  Oh no.

  I'm not sure what DN is but why do I feel a sinking feeling shit's going sideways?

  A Death Neighborizer!?

  Deez Nuts

  But yeah it feels like RVS is going on a bit too long.

  I think scum's getting restless with RVS and is waiting for someone to make a move they can pounce on

  general consensus seems to be a dislike of their entry which i think is pretty nai

  translation: stop wagoning my partner for wrong reasons

  Hero solve: Max + Manatee + Marci

  How serious is this?

  Here there is a believable attempt to start solving, but since then, feels like a good amount has happened that Roden could be commenting on, especially given they feel RVS is going on too long

  general consensus seems to be a dislike of their entry which i think is pretty nai

  translation: stop wagoning my partner for wrong reasons

  Hero solve: Max + Manatee + Marci

  How serious is this?

  Didn't get an answer to this.

  But instead of continuing to look for solving info they're making a busy post.
  
  VOTE: Roden

  Women = Roden, and I'm not switching because I like owo more. The cliqueyness was half-assed. It can be re-attacked later.

  We get it, you're either scum claiming or you're a PR trying to hide yourself with scumminess so you don't get NK'd. Whatever, moving on.
  

  {Looker, Roden, ???}

  I'm sorry, what?
  

  Everything up to 172 is RVS, but in no way does it try to get out of RVS

  Hi I'm a miller

  Would you happen to be...Informed?

  informed of DN

  What is DN?

  Oh no.

  I'm not sure what DN is but why do I feel a sinking feeling shit's going sideways?

  A Death Neighborizer!?

  Deez Nuts

  But yeah it feels like RVS is going on a bit too long.

  I think scum's getting restless with RVS and is waiting for someone to make a move they can pounce on

  general consensus seems to be a dislike of their entry which i think is pretty nai

  translation: stop wagoning my partner for wrong reasons

  Hero solve: Max + Manatee + Marci

  How serious is this?

  Here there is a believable attempt to start solving, but since then, feels like a good amount has happened that Roden could be commenting on, especially given they feel RVS is going on too long

  general consensus seems to be a dislike of their entry which i think is pretty nai

  translation: stop wagoning my partner for wrong reasons

  Hero solve: Max + Manatee + Marci

  How serious is this?

  Didn't get an answer to this.

  But instead of continuing to look for solving info they're making a busy post.
  
  VOTE: Roden

  Because I didn't comment on everything and instead want to know how serious an accusation is, I'm scum?

  It's not so much about what you did, but what you didn't do.
  
  As for you and looker I had individual SRs on you both but then your response to his 220 could be an SvS interaction so it makes me feel better about both reads, especially so for early game

  
  
  
• No explanation for why DGB moved to the top of her read wall. Despite looker and DGB being the same slot. She also preshades herself that she doesn't her townread group which is a common scum tell. Scum will more often insert a "might be wrong" when it is. Not her scumreads Max and you are both town.
  
  Spoiler: Support posts

  Town
  Salsabil
  DGB
  Roden
  omo
  Saudade
  
  Townlean
  Not_Mafia
  
  Null
  Titus
  Geraint
  
  Limbo
  Marci
  Manatee
  
  Scum
  Max
  Dwlee
  
  This is where I'm at. Take my TRs with a grain of salt though because I'm generally bad at identifying town and better at finding scum.

  
  
  
• Kyo focuses continuously on Dwlee and is the "star" of the show, which is 100% necessary for a deep wolf game. If she doesn't get attraction she will lose and fast. She does this through several fights including an "ongoing" fight with you.
  
  
• Kyo votes Marci but then said she'd do manatee as well.
  
  
• Kyo posts another readwall with townreading DGB still. Also includes Not Mafia as town but not town. Again this is a common scum thing to do for a buddy.
  
  Spoiler: support post

  Roden, could I just get a reads list from you rq, I just wanna see where you are at.
  
  Dwlee and Kyouko you too.
  
  I wanna help consolidate today and starting with just listening to people I most townread atp is gonna help

  I'm going to trust that my TRs are right and that N_M can read geraint and take him out of the pool for today. Marci, Manatee, Max is my pool right now.
  
  Roden, omo, mathblade, salsa, DGB, all town
  Titus off the table
  Dwlee unsure, willing to accept he is town for toDay
  N_M I dont think I can read him in my first game.with him but he seems town and some other people say that too. Apparently he can read geraintm as well...
  So geraintm off the table for toDay, because I think the compromise is not going to happen there.
  
  Leaving Max, Manatee, and Marci. I'd like to lim Max because she seems useless as town and as scum she lurked to the end in my last game with her and won, but I think there is something fishy between Marci and Manatee and I'd really like to go with either of them today. I feel like at least 1 is scum.

• Not Mafia will lolhammer despite being first game with not mafia. How does she know if it's her first game? Answer she's scum with him.
  
  
  Spoiler: Support post

  i think i'll vote marci based on her repsonse to rodens questioning cos i think it was very good

  Dont put her to e-1 yet, not_mafia will lolhammer

  
  
  
• 987 and 983 are angling desperately for a no elim but then she remembers if she was on town she'd look horrible if it no elims. So out of no where she votes her buddy. 994 is also where she says Not Mafia can hammer for the lolz and she has already preplanned to attack whoever votes sixth. She never intended for it to go all the way.
  
  
  Spoiler: Support posts

  UNVOTE: I don't even know with this game anymore. Theres a hole in my reads somewhere.
  I guess I could do max
  VOTE: max
  
  Pedit: Roden I think omo was voting Marci while she was he wagon and the same post you thought was townie from Marci, he thought too. So did I.

  Fuck it what about this iso?
  Desperately flocking to the prevailing wagons seemingly for no reason, assuming they're both town, 962 is the perfect time to make that post as scum. You get the towncred but also the prevailing wagons are TvT and it's safe to do so.
  
  No content. Flip-flops onto town wagons without reason. Tries to scoop up low-hanging towncred. Yeet
  
  VOTE: DrippingGoofball

  I summon the powers of roden, omo, manatee, and Marci to turboelim this scumbag. It's partner can bus it with the 6th vote and not_mafia can hammer for the lulz

(Going to go on to Day two late tonight / early tomorrow) Bold is the important.

[MathBlade]

My theory is that she knows Roden or she has to be the top dog so getting me and Koba to fight gives her space but that didn’t happen. I don’t know her enough to know which this is

[MathBlade]

The one thing she didn’t account for though is if I am scum Titus is a 100% top tier kill when I can get away with it.
She always finds some way to suspect me, so I have to kill her fast usually if scum if I get any excuse that doesn’t point to me.

[MathBlade]

I disagree with scum you needing to kill Titus because you just won with her in ELO. When I was reading that ELO for fun I was 100% sure you were scum and DGB was town.

I couldn’t get away with killing her that game. Buddying was the only option.

[MathBlade]

I am amazed she even went for it in elo

I thought I was screwed.

[MathBlade]

My theory is that she knows Roden or she has to be the top dog so getting me and Koba to fight gives her space but that didn’t happen. I don’t know her enough to know which this is

I never tried to get you and Koba to fight so this is just made up. I also had no reason to be threatened by Roden if I was scum. Look at his reads. He trusted me, and he sheeped me.

That’s what you tried to do with the Roden kill.

That’s literally my point.

It wasn’t a fear kill it was a strategic one.

[MathBlade]

I think you're trying to manipulate me into voting Titus with the leading questions tbh. I dont know if it's scum or controlling town though.
Titus, or anyone else with mathblade experience: is this something he tries as town? To "lead a horse to water", as it were, and dichotomize the horse based on whether they drink?

To be clear I have about a billion (hyperbole) scum games.
I am sure if someone wanted to paint me as scum that does a certain thing they could.
When I am scum (again not here), I manipulate the gamestate not people. Townies become scum more than I ever would. In the linked game I had Xlos and DGB were my puppets doing the scummy things I couldn’t. I don’t outright manipulate here. It’s why as scum I am almost never wagoned because I am honest and truthful to a fault and nothing is off limits and I consistently try to bring scum and town meta in alignment to avoid trust tells.

This is the only reply to my 1318, not even Titus replies. Dwlee do you remember this interaction, or do you want quotes of it? I think it's the most concretely scummy thing that pinged me about Math in this game. Most of the other reasons to SR him are contextual I think, but this was an interaction that really bothered me that went largely unnoticed by everyone else, which is evidenced by the fact 1318 got no other replies, but Math replies in a kind of preemptively defensive way. "I'm sure if someone wanted to paint me as scum that does x they could"

Going to sleep

No one replied because people either A> Knew my scum game and knew what I said was right or B> had no idea as they didn’t know me. There’s no defensiveness there just truth.

Want to say I am passive scum? There’s a game for that.
Active scum? There’s a game for that.
Love bussing? There’s a game for that.
Hate bussing? There’s a game for that.

It doesn’t bother anyone when it’s true and I am speaking truth.

[MathBlade]

Way too late for D2 will pick it up tomorrow.

[MathBlade]

My theory is that she knows Roden or she has to be the top dog so getting me and Koba to fight gives her space but that didn’t happen. I don’t know her enough to know which this is

I never tried to get you and Koba to fight so this is just made up. I also had no reason to be threatened by Roden if I was scum. Look at his reads. He trusted me, and he sheeped me.

That’s what you tried to do with the Roden kill.

That’s literally my point.

It wasn’t a fear kill it was a strategic one.

how does killing Roden lead to you and omo fighting? Was he mediating you two or something?

Killing Roden leads to us fighting because Roden said me and omo was either SvT or TvS. If someone pointed that out that causes us to fight. A strategic kill is one that manipulates the gamestate.

[MathBlade]

With an inactive N_M as the second scum, the Roden kill was a solo project. It makes no sense for me to have killed Roden, and it does make sense for Math to have done it

You say “no reason” but that’s exactly why you did it.

I agree it was mostly a solo game so you needed a kill that gets other people suspected.

[MathBlade]

My theory is that she knows Roden or she has to be the top dog so getting me and Koba to fight gives her space but that didn’t happen. I don’t know her enough to know which this is

I never tried to get you and Koba to fight so this is just made up. I also had no reason to be threatened by Roden if I was scum. Look at his reads. He trusted me, and he sheeped me.

That’s what you tried to do with the Roden kill.

That’s literally my point.

It wasn’t a fear kill it was a strategic one.

how does killing Roden lead to you and omo fighting? Was he mediating you two or something?

Killing Roden leads to us fighting because Roden said me and omo was either SvT or TvS. If someone pointed that out that causes us to fight. A strategic kill is one that manipulates the gamestate.

Did I or N_M point out that Roden was calling you and omo TvS? I dont recall him saying that. Sounds like you're revealing why you would kill Roden tbh

A smart scum wouldn’t. You sit and wait and see if someone else brings it up then you can join either side if it looks like it will gain steam. I don’t remember whether you did or not and I have to get to work. Roden did say we were TvS or SvT and that’s why he is a good strategic kill for a scum like you.

[MathBlade]

I hate when people say im not solving when clearly i am but in my own way of poking and prodding people for alignment tells lmfao

Not to clear myself, but that might imply uninformed majority if people can't tell if you're solving or not.

anything change since you posted that BTW?

Math jumped up to Null. I think you and Math could be TvS though.

Dwlee and Salsabil swapped places as well. I'll have to reread ISOs but Salsabil's posts have occasionally pinged me when catching up on posts but never enough to keep my attention. And Dwlee really does just feel like flailing town, especially with the weird tunnel on Titus.

Here

[MathBlade]

You don’t have to quote it like I said earlier.

That’s the brilliance of a good scum. You kill to make towns do what you want.

Indirect manipulation is a powerful force. You didn’t luck out on it happening but you did take out a top tier town.

Once I was right and the day indicated a deep wolf I became a problem for you which you couldn’t kill so you had to misdirect me.

[MathBlade]

And yes I can paint almost anyone as scum for anything. That’s just generically true because of how much I have played scum and been scum. It’s a reason 1313 is so ewww you literally scumslipped that you ignored Manatee/Titus and shot Roden then never pursued that line of thought ever again.

[MathBlade]

You did here, quite blatantly. You just didn’t kill them when you found them.

[MathBlade]

I gotta clock in now

[MathBlade]

No. I knew she was behind because she was saying so. She usually is mechanically smart with decisions. As I said earlier I wanted to leave her to her own devices but I wanted her to have the information to do so. Did I know she was going to understand it? No. She can be incredibly dense. But it was worth a shot.

[MathBlade]

So you wanted her to protect Max?

I wanted her to have the information. There were a couple smart plays there any of them good. I wanted her to either protect Max or be like a vig.

[MathBlade]

So you wanted her to protect Max?

I wanted her to have the information. There were a couple smart plays there any of them good. I wanted her to either protect Max or be like a vig.

Manatee* fml sorry typo while working

[MathBlade]

If you have made up your mind then you have. That’s what our discussion is for, nothing more.

Kyo did a good job as scum and I am pretty sure you’re hammering me from the tone so well played Kyo.

[MathBlade]

Well played.

I expected that to force a four way draw. Having to do another kill screwed me. I was honest when I said I expected that to draw.

*tips hat*

[MathBlade]

I thought I had you pocketed enough Dwlee and it was between killing you and Marci and I didn’t think I had Marci pocketed enough.

[MathBlade]

Kyo was 100% right except she missed where I thought Titus was going to babysit me and so I flipped out and shot Roden instead

[MathBlade]

G played good except shoulda waited one more day. Legit had no idea you were IC.

[MathBlade]

I think you needed to kill Kyo or me there.

Pedit: that's why I ended up being so tight lipped. I got paranoid which is why I no limmed and was hoping you'd turn up dead like you should have as town.

Yeah I was kinda screwed the moment I had to make a four kill. Standard is not to force scum to kill or lose. It’s why it’s a draw and I expected it to be that way. Needs to be normalized I don’t blame T3 at all.

[MathBlade]

My play was based on that being the final day.

[MathBlade]

If it was I think it becomes Marci gets elimmed or we no elim.

[MathBlade]

No objections to PT being released.

Most of it is just my nervous ramblings anyway.

And Kyo I did skim most of what you linked but for a different purpose.

[MathBlade]

Wait so Math are you just a goon? 3 goons vs IC/FN/BS?

Yup

[MathBlade]

G played good except shoulda waited one more day. Legit had no idea you were IC.

i flipped start of day 3, i had no control over when it happened.

Right lol derp

[MathBlade]

Wait so Math are you just a goon? 3 goons vs IC/FN/BS?

This was more balanced than most Ms setups.

I will take it lol.

Kyo definitely deserves MVP for first and last days.

Dwlee is best in the middle

[MathBlade]

It is yeah. Pretty sure. There’s a list on the wiki

[MathBlade]

Titus died in the night. She was a Town Babysitter.
omo died in the night. They were a Vanilla Townie.
geraintm is publicly confirmed by the moderator to be town.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Activated

If you want to get really technical only night is but day specific is implied just normals have no day roles.

[MathBlade]

Activated I think covers it though

[MathBlade]

It might not be but it was pretty minor impact.

I have played so many I sorta glossed over it.

They could add it.

[MathBlade]

Guess that’s a question for the reviewer since normals have to have a reviewer

[MathBlade]

Ahh Isis and Mastina

[MathBlade]

Maybe. Lemme see if Isis or Mastina can provide feedback.

[MathBlade]

That would trigger when night 2 starts. Probably an outdated wiki maybe.

[MathBlade]

Maybe? I can see it either way. I guess depends on wording/mod? Needs normalizing too I think.

[MathBlade]

Let me be 100% clear here town played very well. Please don’t take any of this the wrong way definitely a gg.

[MathBlade]

Hi I reviewed this game.

I didn't know day was a normal modifier.

Technically, this is true so you can blame reviewer oversight on this--

If you want to get really technical only night is but day specific is implied just normals have no day roles.

Innocent Child is a bit unique in how it works.

By default, a non-modified Innocent Child is a passive role, revealed as town at the beginning of the game, as soon as D1 begins.

There are multiple mechanics you can use to change when this confirmation happens. Activated turns the IC from a passive role into an active role (one which, by default, has no specified timeframe of activation, tho that depends on the wording of the role PM).

Night-specific, a role modifier that is Normal, reveals the IC on a specific night, with it working instead of at D1 like the default, to instead trigger later on the specified night.

However, night-specific for IC can be a little bit...tricky, in its wording. Does it reveal at the

start

of the night, or the

end

of the night? I'm not sure which is standard, or if there actually IS a standard.


Day-specific is technically not Normal (and thus technically should not have been passed), but in effect is an extension of the above, which places it at the end of the night rather than the beginning. IC is basically the only role which can use the day-specific modifier (literally the only other role I can think of which could possibly make use of it is an Informed), and it is presumably this lack of roles which can use Day-specific for why it is not technically Normal.

Generally speaking I would assume most reviewers see a day-specific IC and automatically assume it's okay as a role and work on balancing the setup, neglecting to double-check to make sure that day-specific is actually Normal. Or at least, I can tell you that's what happened here for me; I didn't even think about the Normalcy of a day-specific IC and was more concerned with the balance of the role.

We'll see about bringing the topic up in the NRG tho. Both for activation time of a night-specific IC and for if a day-specific should be Normal as a modifier for the few roles that it works with.

Bringing up this and the everyone lives would be a good idea. A simple clear rule for each or modifying the wiki before start of a normal that relies on evens is a good idea

[MathBlade]

GG town!

Math played it really well but I think trying to scapegoat Kyouko at the end backfired due to me being the first NK. Kyo mostly got it right that I died because I scum read Math, but I also fake softed a PR.

Most of the time I don’t fear kill.

You’re going places

[MathBlade]

Gg town and thanks mod

I wasn’t crumbing doctor btw, that was just coincidence

I love when I accidentally scumread an unintentional soft that happens to be from scum and not town

I was like with that and the g = IC crumb, where is she getting these theories? If NM thought G was IC he woulda told me lol