Let me start with something I like.
In post 1862, implosion wrote:That's useful.
VOTE: GuiltyLion for now. I'll ISO him today/soon.
nQ is basically saying a more elaborated version of what I was. Yesterday in general I think GL maybe felt too agreeable - like his reads list in
892 is going to ruffle basically no feathers from active players. Ceph's comment of it basically being the player list sorted by charisma is poignant.
This post is good, and I do not think the idea itself of what I am about to criticize is bad. Intentionally trying to think of a player you're skeptical of with your scum lens on is an idea that, while I can't say it's particularly... orthodox, it's not the worst idea I've ever heard from town.
Fair warning for this next bit, I am probably going to skip over posts regarding meta-reading from previous games. As I have described probably multiple times now, I find it very difficult to get into the proper mindset required to meta read off of games that A) I wasn't interacting with at all and B) know all alignments. As such, I can't really comment on the veracity of these claims, only how the point is constructed. And since I can't comment on veracity, it makes it difficult to do that as well.
In post 1862, implosion wrote: In post 308, GuiltyLion wrote: In post 273, numberQ wrote:The interaction between Tejate and Ceph from
238 on is pinging me. 238 itself does strike me as a lot of nothing that
could
be scum indicative. Ceph calling him out on it though, for some reason I didn't like it even though I generally agreed with the sentiment. And overall I feel like Tejate is coming out of that back and forth looking towny, and Ceph null-scum.
This was my impression too. Ceph is giving me major "SE pushing on a mislimmable Newbie in the Newbie Queue" vibes
I townread Tejate
In post 310, GuiltyLion wrote: In post 243, Cephrir wrote:so 238 essentially just says "hey look everyone i have handwritten notes" since there is no actual reason for it to exist.
this post in particular
I could definitely imagine it being town in Ceph's spot trying to pressure a questionable slot, but it's just ever so slightly too aggressive for me. like I can see where Ceph is coming from calling out that the "notes" comment is a bit LAMISTy, but it's not too hard for me to imagine a town!Tejate writing the post and thinking it might be useful, he feels genuine to me
In post 311, GuiltyLion wrote:actually though I am thinking fua's jump in is worse than Ceph's push
I townread Tejate, but I can imagine Ceph being town misfiring on him. I think if that was a T-T spat, fua's play vibes like scum looking for a distraction outside the scrutiny their own slot is receiving, and leveraging Tejate/Ceph to do it
VOTE: fua
In post 314, GuiltyLion wrote:implosion and nQ get major towncred for mindmelds
and I kinda townread Ydrasse so far too
A few comments on this sequence of 4 posts.
First, the suspicion toward Ceph feels very only-poke-the-warthog-from-a-distance. Like he doesn't want to incur wrath too badly. Specifically the couched language in 310 - "ever so slightly too aggressive" and "can see where he's coming from" but still wants to explore the scumread. Compare, say, even the way that nsg talked about the Shirou slot - it did not feel like she was trying to stay on his good side even though she wasn't really calling him scum when she gave her tirade of "can we please not all locktown shirou".
Okay, okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe GuiltyLion's Ceph callout seems non-committal. But day 1 reads, and especially early day 1 reads, tend to be some of the least reliable in any given game of mafia. The interaction being referred to here was essentially, from my perspective, the first bit of real content beyond the slog that was reading through the first 8 or so pages. I know you guys early on said there was "clearly content I could use to form reads" there, but if there is then I must be tasteless because everything on those pages is bland.
In post 1869, implosion wrote:Second, the reasoning given for the fua vote in 311 is awkward; he thinks Ceph is scummy but can imagine him being town misfiring. But
if
he's town misfiring then fua looks bad. It's like, "I have this scumread. But if I'm wrong on it then this other player is scummy, so vote: other player". And this the first mention of fua in his ISO. Further, at this point Ceph has 2 votes on him and fua has 0. I feel like town-GL votes Ceph here - it's a wagon, he's suspicious of him, it could help sort. But scum-GL is afraid of being the third vote on the wagon of a strong town player who is often (at least iirc) pretty skeptical of pressure on him. And so instead he decides to come up with some reason to not have to join that wagon, and vanity votes fua who, at this point in the game, is not widely townread.
And yet you somewhat townread me when I was actually entertaining the idea of voting and pressuring fua there for almost the exact same reason? Maybe I didn't outright state it, sure, but fua's vote looked pretty terrible in my eyes and I was quick to express this. And as I stated before, there is something that really bothers me about this being called a vanity vote when it is not really possible to say at that particular point whether or not a fua wagon has potential. Hell, if a wagon had started at this point, I would have probably been on it. Why do you think it took me so long to come around to the idea of fua being locktown? This very play along with many other factors sowed more doubts about fua for me than anything GL could have said.
In post 1869, implosion wrote:Third, the last post just feels, idk, like it fits this pattern of trying to get on people's good sides/stay off people's bad sides. Just the phrasing of "major towncred for mindmelds". More minor than the other things.
In post 1483, implosion wrote:I really do hope Shirou is town here because if so I feel like we are vibing just like incredibly hard in the past chunk of this day and if not then idk if he's just intentionally focusing on pocketing me, which would be really weird for multiple reasons, but gosh.
As Amazonian once said to Ceph earlier in the game, is it like looking in a mirror? You make essentially the exact same gesture towards Shirou here, worded slightly differently. I don't really feel the need to say much more about this, it kinda speaks for itself.
In post 1862, implosion wrote: In post 394, GuiltyLion wrote: In post 328, fua wrote: In post 311, GuiltyLion wrote:actually though I am thinking fua's jump in is worse than Ceph's push
I townread Tejate, but I can imagine Ceph being town misfiring on him. I think if that was a T-T spat, fua's play vibes like scum looking for a distraction outside the scrutiny their own slot is receiving, and leveraging Tejate/Ceph to do it
VOTE: fua
Yes, I want a distraction from my own slot, so instead of enlisting my buddies to do something or waiting my turn, I just hop in balls-out into a pre-existing feud right after people express suspicion of me, because I'm eager to get away from the pressure of zero votes. You have solved the case very early into day 1. I'm not sure what you think my level of experience is or how well-versed I am in how to play this game, but this isn't it chief.
this post is not a good look, my vote stays
you feel extremely defensive, leans on sarcasm extra thick to try to imply that voting/scumreading you is dumb, and is the implication here supposed to be that scum you would never hop into any feud? How else would scum find things to push on or reasons to scumread people?
Where did the "solved the case" nonsense come from? Did my post give you the impression I felt I had "already solved"? Why?
This is just a bit strong of a response imo. The way the post is written kind of feels like he decided that his opinion of the post was that it's scummy, and then came up with a reason for each part of it to be scummy, when really a lot of it is just harping on sarcasm.
Once again, is it like looking in a mirror? Not to mention that this sort of response to posts is not only not really AI, but extremely common. I also though that this post, while funny, was a pretty terrible post. There is no real rebuttal against GL's argument here, there's nothing much for him to really dive into. Why shouldn't he see this post as scummy exactly? GL even responds to the content related parts of the post, so I don't think you can even get him on that. It's not as if he's using fua's sarcasm an excuse.
In post 1862, implosion wrote: In post 421, GuiltyLion wrote: In post 417, fua wrote:What do you make of Tejate’s point that people are trying to tie him and Ceph together? Because you certainly pushed that note when you voted for me. Why can’t you be trying to pocket Tejate by going against popular opinion and TRing him?
I do think anyone claiming to tie Cephrir and Tejate together would be making a mistake, yeah.
You're not wrong that I made some assumptions and suggested a narrative. I don't have any hard data so I offered a hypothetical that made sense to me and pushed it to see what would happen
I'm not trying to pocket to Tejate cause I'm town, but it's certainly not unreasonable for someone to suspect me of doing that, and if that's what you believe you should argue for it
I don't really understand why town chooses to "make some assumptions and suggest a narrative" (assuming this is referring to the thing about fua-maybe-scum-if-ceph-and-tejate-town). Again, the more productive thing for GL-town to do in that situation seems to be to vote Ceph, a player who he was calling scummy and who already had two votes on him. He later says he
likes big wagons. This whole thing just makes it seem like he was lying about the Ceph scumread. I don't see any reason for GL-town to do this weird, circuitous "suggesting a narrative" thing instead of just voting the person who he just called scum and who has votes on him already.
But he explicitly stated multiple times, including during this argument, that fua's jump-in was more blatantly scummy than Ceph's barely audible push. Doesn't this align more closely with the idea of "voting the person he just called scum" than voting Ceph? I really, really want to like your arguments for this post because I think it's a novel idea. But if this is the best you can come up with for a case against GL you may as well have him be locktown.
