Newbie 2093 | New Wave | Postgame

[furtiveglance]

Furtive
you totally passed the test
locktown status achieved!
not really
I want you to be town (like CornPuff)
but if you are it's gonna take some work bc I don't see it yet

Explain your townread on abdbla.

[catboi]

I would like to take a moment to remind everyone in this game to be respectful of your fellow players. While heated discussion and debate are a part of the game, needless personal attacks are not, and make the game worse for everyone. Criticism should be directed toward play, rather than the player. Remember ultimately that this is just a game. If you feel frustrated, I recommend stepping away from the screen for a bit. Try not to be rude.

[Takemikazuchi02]

@TTTT

Isn't it time that you shared your reads list?

[Val89]

Aspho: Null. I don't like her OMGUS votes but I sympathize with her frustration in this game.

Has brought up a lot of good points which I like.

May we see some examples?

The entire Train on T02 is started from a faulty premise, based on inappropiate statistical analysis and confusion on what a meta was.

Has there ever been more than a single vote on T02 this whole game? ISOing catboi for the VCs suggests not, but I guess there may have been a flash wagon that dissipated quickly I missed.

I've had some time to go back through and can answer my own question - there was a brief moment when both TTTT and Italiano were both voting for T02, although neither appear to suggest it has anything to do with the 'greeting tell'. I am struggling therefore to see what prompted either of those two slots, and it appears to be those two slots, with the occasional sidebar with Abdbla, to expend so much effort complaining about, and attempting to debunk something, not impacting the reads in this game.

[furtiveglance]

Abdbla

-- Statistical analysis. As much as I disagree with his conclusion, we've hit a point where we agree on the method. I think he's trying to game solve still, but the issue is that's basically the same as Scum Abdbla. However, this time, he isn't trying to push the wagon away or lead a new one; though in context for last game, you did sub into a scummy slot.

A lot of abdbla's 'analysis' has been on game theory/strategy rather than their own thoughts. I've seen this a lot from scum in the games I've played.

[ItalianoVD]

He was literally saying shit like "it's only a game, nobody has to be mad" later in 2091. There's definitely something else going on, but the thing is I'm not sure what it is yet.

I do. He's scum.

[ItalianoVD]

I will say that I don't think what Terp put forwards in 282 is necessarily true.

In what way do you mean?

[CornPuffBuddha]

@abdbla

312

Buddying me with Italiano is quite the interesting solve. Not sure what your problem with 270 is.

"In the interest of honesty, I had a lot more information that I could discuss on from the get go. The discussion was practically centered around me as well, because I was one of the major scum-read positions. Here, I've been, well, idling, getting my notes up to standard."

- That's mostly fair. But I still feel like there's been a shift in the quality put into your arguments. And I very much don't like the idea that you're making posts "idling" when there's plenty interesting to talk about.

Skipping over the image thing because it's irrelevant and we have both said our peace.

"Insults, emotional arguments, passive aggressivity, it doesn't really help progress the game. You get answers to questions by asking them."

- Not to move into semantics, but "insults, emotional arguments, and passive aggressivity" are very much not what I first think of with confrontation. Confrontation, scumhunting, asking blunt questions is necessary for good town play.

"If I'm wrong, I don't double down."

- That's OK, I wasn't saying you shouldn't have conceded that, I was just outlining the structure of your post there.

"If the image thing came across as passive aggressive, my apologies to Asph, that wasn't my intent."

- It was really just the skull emoticon that made me raise an eyebrow. But no need to apologize if Asph wasn't bothered.

"If you think my argument is iffy, please point out the flaws instead of burying the lead at the bottom of a wall of text."

- Fair enough, I'll elaborate - I wasn't originally intending to write a full scumcase there so I was being pretty brief. I don't think scum is going to try to leverage experience to get newbies to sheep them and then secure a miselim that way - in fact, when TTTT made the barest of suggestions that some of the newbies should respect the veterans more, it was reacted to with hostility by quite a few people. And I'm willing to bet those who didn't react to that so openly also are not willing to follow someone on the vote just because they're SE, including myself. You're overthinking why Italiano switched strategies - it's because it wasn't working. Abandoning a tactic when it's going nowhere is NAI. I don't even necessarily agree with Aspho here, I just think the argument you made is bad.

Only thing I'm struggling with here is that I'm having a very hard time seeing abd and Italiano partnered, and they're my top scumreads.

@Italiano

330 - This is a hard WIFOM situation for me. I just don't see why scum!T02 would be so much more vitriolic than town!T02 unless he's playing incredibly sub-optimally.

331 - Didn't I answer that question in the post you quoted?

@Aspho

- Any reason I wasn't included on your readslist?

[CornPuffBuddha]

Damn I think I'm starting to warm up to some of Italiano's arguments the more I think about them. But still a scum lean for now.

[Takemikazuchi02]

@Val

Her reasoning for voting you in VOTE: 194 and her read on Italiano for example.

[Takemikazuchi02]

Oops I meant 194

[Takemikazuchi02]

Are you asking for myself or Italiano to address this? I will anyway. Yeah, it might be a bit of a stretch, but Take was reacting to something (TTTT's vote) WAY more than needed, especially given the fact that Take was saying the vote was pointless. If Take has skin in the game (Aspho is his scum partner) it's the only reason I can think of as to why Take kept bringing up TTTT's "pointless" vote. Since then, however, Take has admitted that he is reading TTTT scummy and finds him annoying. So could certainly be more to it that my thoughts there and simply just the "bickering" we've been plagued with early on this game.

I'd like to point out that the only reason this happened is because Italiano kept asking me to explain why I didn't like TTTT's vote on V/LA Aspho multiple times starting from 111. This is one of the main reasons why i got so frustrated with him actually.

[Takemikazuchi02]

Also I never said TTTT was scummy. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

[catboi]

TTTT is being replaced.

[Val89]

I just don't see why scum!T02 would be so much more vitriolic than town!T02 unless he's playing incredibly sub-optimally.

I'm thinking the solve is probably Aspho/T02 at the moment, and I think the strange behavior both have been exhibiting can be explained if you consider how that double-newbie scum team must be feeling with how the first page or three of this game went down. First Aspho is put to an early E-2, and in response T02 potentially slips (and I know there has already been some controversy around this point, but I am reading 60 this way, and I think I've already gone on record to say so) TTTT as town. Italiano also starts voting T02, but isn't entirely forthcoming with his reasons, and I've mentioned how TTTT has in the past referenced his belief in the existence of a newbscum greeting tell, which, as far as I can tell, has been taken by both T02 and Aspho, incorrectly, as an indication that might be applied to this game - note as well, that both of those slots are ones that did greet the game, although the main focus was CPB intro post. T02 is constantly lashing out at Italiano, and Aspho is lashing out at TTTT for the merest suggestion they weren't going to buy what it was that she was selling - namely, that the newbscum greeting tell, that nobody was seriously using at that point, is TOTAL BULLSHIT. A mathematical

FALLACY

. Here is 597 words and a diagram on why you should completely discount it and not entertain such thoughts again.

I can imagine how incredibility frustrating it must be to have been caught for the wrong reasons, particularly in these circumstances. The alternative explanation being advanced by some slots, that T02 is town because they are too scummy to be scum and wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves in such a manner, doesn't fit for me. I think they thought that statement that initially brought attention to their slot - that you should vote a slot that was on V/LA (even putting aside considerations that that slot might be the scumbuddy) to be entirely uncontroversial.

[Takemikazuchi02]

Sigh

Guess TTTT wasn't having fun. Can't blame him.
That means his spot is probably town since I think maf would leave the game in this instance.

[furtiveglance]

TTTT is being replaced.

Sad news.

[Takemikazuchi02]

@Val

How very convenient. The two people voting on you are now scum partners.

I don't understand how you can read 60 as a slip, it makes no sense to me. I explained myself about it multiple times. This is a just gotcha argument.

Your point about the greeting "tell" is wrong. The proof is that me and Aspho both said hi in our first game and we were both town but you didn't even take the time to check up on that. This is the last time I'm ever responding to this bullshit argument.

[BigTerp]

Also I never said TTTT was scummy. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

I'm on mobile until tomorrow morning, so won't have much to contribute. But to address this, I confused you and Asphodelus' reads on TTTT. My mistake.

[Val89]

Vote Count 1.06

abdbla (3):

furtiveglance, CornPuffBuddha, BigTerp

CornPuffBuddha (2):

abdbla, TTTT

ItalianoVD (1):

Takemikazuchi02

Asphodelus (1):

Val89

Takemikazuchi02 (1):

ItalianoVD

TTTT (1):

Asphodelus

With 9 alive, it's 5 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 1 is April 24 at 6:00 PM EST.

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-04-24 18:00:00)

@Val

How very convenient. The two people voting on you are now scum partners.

Have I missed something?

[Takemikazuchi02]

Is that all you have to say?
I meant the two people that scumread you not voted for you.

[Val89]

Your point about the greeting "tell" is wrong. The proof is that me and Aspho both said hi in our first game and we were both town but you didn't even take the time to check up on that. This is the last time I'm ever responding to this bullshit argument.

You are proving my point. Nobody, but NOBODY, is making the point that you are scum because of the greeting tell, least of all me.

You have been corrected on this point, by myself at the minimum, several times now:

As it happens, I'm also not convinced the actual 'tell' - which from what I can work out is giving a generic greeting to

everyone

in the game, as per the first line of 19 - has any value in actually helping sort the player to which it is intended to apply, but I did think it make sense in explaining the motivation of a theoretical town!TTTT's, since I

DO

think that TTTT/loopdan actually believes that.

@TTTT You, Italiano, Abd and Val, nearly half the players seriously think saying hi can be a tell and you except people not to argue against you?

Still skimming through, but quickly; for the record, this isn't true, at least as far as myself - I think I was pretty clear in 104 that I didn't think the tell itself had much value in sorting those who to whom it may apply, but instead had value in understanding what TTTT might have been thinking. To be clear, it appears from subsequent discussion that I was wrong even on that.

Again, though, because I see Aspho and T02 themselves pushing this narrative throughout - it is my recollection that I, myself, Val89, was the person to bring up what has been referred to as the 'greeting tell', and I was clear that it was something that was being used to help inform a read on TTTT, nobody else, and nobody is in fact being scumread for having greeted the game, correct?

I've had some time to go back through and can answer my own question - there was a brief moment when both TTTT and Italiano were both voting for T02, although neither appear to suggest it has anything to do with the 'greeting tell'. I am struggling therefore to see what prompted either of those two slots, and it appears to be those two slots, with the occasional sidebar with Abdbla, to expend so much effort complaining about, and attempting to debunk something, not impacting the reads in this game.

and I've mentioned how TTTT has in the past referenced his belief in the existence of a newbscum greeting tell, which, as far as I can tell, has been taken by both T02 and Aspho,

incorrectly

, as an indication that might be applied to this game

You continued framing that you, or Aspho, or anyone, is being scumread for having "said hi" (which again, is a reductive misrepresentation of the tell in itself) has to be at this point either entirely wilful, and thus scummy, or else evidence of an oversensitiveness to a degree I suggest can only come from scum.

I am currently voting Aspho, but I would be entirely willing to vote T02 here.

[Takemikazuchi02]

You continued framing that you, or Aspho, or anyone, is being scumread for having "said hi" (which again, is a reductive misrepresentation of the tell in itself)

Where have I said anything about ME being scumread for saying hi? I was never worried of that "tell" being used against me because I could always point to my first game.
From the beginning I've been arguing against the validity of the "tell" in and out of itself and I said I would dismiss any use of it no matter who it was used against. Not because i'm worried but because the "tell" is pure bullshit and I will not budge an inch on this subject.

[Val89]

The proof is that me and Aspho both said hi in our first game and we were both town but you didn't even take the time to check up on that.

I might have been prepared, once upon a time, to believe you just didn't understand what the newbie greeting 'tell' was, but

A 24 game sample size is meaningless. I see you're still using the same complete garbage arguments as last game.

VOTE: Abdbla

suggests to me you know full well the argument was never "people who say hi can't be town".

Just in case the wall of quotes previously hasn't made it obvious by now, I am inclined to agree with you that there is no value to it, but you have continued to misrepresent me, despite all those corrections, that I believed it could reliably deduce scum, and you implied as much again 2 posts ago.

I ask myself again why you continue to expend as much effort, even devoting one third of your response to my case on the You/Aspho being the scum team as "your point on the greeting tell is wrong", if there is no fear as you claim?

[Val89]

The proof is that me and Aspho both said hi in our first game

Well, as it happens, that's also a lie.

That'll at least teach me not to take ANYTHING you say, even simple statements of fact, at face value anymore.