Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Bell]

I’m not against a gamma vote, if only because they just naked voted Marci while caution preaching.

[VP Baltar]

VPB, why is marci scummy?

Nothing has changed from what I stated before. Post hoc explanation of the datisi vote primarily.

The main reason to town read marci is a "she's a noob" argument, which can potentially be true regardless of alignment.

[LavarManos]

I’m not against a gamma vote, if only because they just naked voted Marci while caution preaching.

Good observation

pedit: Ok, I'll take a look.

[Prism]

Vote Count 1.4

FLAVOR

I've always been ambitious. I think it all started when I was a kid in South Africa. There I am, 10 years old. Cowboy boots and a Commodore VIC-20 on my lap. I loved video games, loved playing them, enjoying the worlds they created...and winning, god I loved winning. It was the first time I realized I was better than everyone else.

In games, you're this special character. You're destined to win, even if sometimes you somehow lose to those boneheaded AI and have to start all over, in the end it's obvious you're better than it all. You beat all the bad guys, you save the day, you become king. Maybe even king of space. At some point, I just thought to myself "Why can't life be like this too? Why don't I be the hero, set the example for all the NPCs running around out there?"

So I did.

Player	Votes
Bell (5)	Lady Lambdadelta (175), Datisi (239), Fey (279), Dwlee99 (305), Rhyme and Reason (316)
marcistar (3)	VP Baltar (479), Kovu (486), Gammagooey (497)
Datisi (2)	marcistar (19), Val89 (32)
takotsubo syndrome (2)	LavarManos (290), Enchant (317)
VP Baltar (2)	gorilla (363), Meuh (373)
LavarManos (1)	fireisredsir (191)
SirCakez (1)	Bell (301)
Val89 (1)	Lukewarm (489)
Not Voting (3)	Dunnstral, takotsubo syndrome (130), SirCakez (441)

With 20 players alive, it takes 11 votes to eliminate.

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2022-06-03 13:48:00).

Spoiler: Postcount Tracker

Player	Daystart postcount	Reserves
Bell	0	10
Fey	0	10
fireisredsir	0	10
Lady Lambdadelta	0	10
takotsubo syndrome	0	10
Lukewarm	0	10
Dunnstral	0	10
Rhyme and Reason	0	10
Meuh	0	10
Val89	0	10
marcistar	0	10
Dwlee99	0	10
Gammagooey	0	10
Kovu	0	10
VP Baltar	0	10
Datisi	0	10
LavarManos	0	10
Enchant	0	10
SirCakez	0	10
gorilla	0	10

Posts are capped at 125 posts per slot per dayphase. Please see the Ruleset and FAQ for more information and tips on tracking your postcount.

[Bell]

I’m against the Marci wagon.

Sadly most of the people I want dead have less than 10 posts. But it’s a good place to start imo.

[Bell]

I don’t really agree with mind meld hypothesis, but meh.
Why did you set your targets the way you set them Meuh?

This is probably going to be my last short post and I’ll just have to commit to walls of nonsense from
Here on out.

[Kovu]

I mean tbh I probably want lvar yeeted the most right now, but yeah, I'm not opposed to any of the no content slots, like, odds say scum is VERY likely in those...
VOTE: lavar

I did like the pressure we put on marci though

[Dunnstral]

As a sidenote, I disagree with your Dunn townread - I think I've seen like 3 people say they townread him and to me he looks the same as he did in the last game I was in where he was scum (Slaughter Hour), and I don't remember him being different in World of Tomorrow where we were both scum with him either (though my memory of that game isn't great tbf and I checked out a bit after I died). Like I haven't seen him as town in ages and it's still early game, but his vibe still seems like *he exists a little bit but never sticks his neck out and makes a big deal of anything relevant*.

Also maybe this is me being annoying about taking "don't want to kill" being stronger than you might actually mean it but I feel like nobody except fire and Bell (post-claim and ONLY for today) being on that list is justifiable in my eyes

Yeah you think Dunn is town for Kovu-logic but I feel like Dunn's perfectly capable of making a weird but logical argument as scum, tho prob we're going to disagree and I'd be fine leaving it at that for now.
I feel like you're underestimating LLD (especially) & VPB's general ability as scum, Enchant has a very high chance of being my Invictus target by the end of the day if her posting doesn't improve, and Kovu's like. fine? I don't think they look town yet but it does seem like you've played with Andante before and probably have a baseline idea of either their town or scum play.

So do you scumread me or have me as null here?
You keep pointing to other games as reasons to not townread me but haven't really talked about anything in this game.

And if your answer to the above is that I haven't done anything, my retort is then "why are you focusing on me?"

Same deal with LLD. How is LLD being underestimated - they've barely posted

[Gammagooey]

I know you're being sarcastic here

Why wouldn't I be dead serious? I do not care that it's a holiday TOMORROW game started 3 days ago, and I saw 8 people had less than 10 posts, I feel like 10 posts over 3 days is a very reasonable expectation, like, if people aren't going to do anything, why not give stuff to look towny, so those of us who actually want to play the game, have something to read. wild concept I know

back in MY DAY someone could post 34 times in 2 weeks and eat a scumkill for their trouble viewtopic.php?f=56&t=18022&user_select[]=1608

to be real tho your annoyance/frustration is valid but if I was going on a Memorial Day vacation with family without my laptop, I would prioritize that over the game too, and given that the game-posts here are a bit thicker than usual I don't know if I'd be able to meaningfully contribute at all until I was back.

I’m not against a gamma vote, if only because they just naked voted Marci while caution preaching.

I already shared some thoughts on Marci earlier, and sure if you want to make a scary buzzword for it "caution preaching" seems better than the alternative of not commenting on reads I don't think are justified and letting them go unexamined until *woah surprise one of them was scum nobody could have predicted this*

[Gammagooey]

@Dunn- Slightly scum, you're participating in convos but you still haven't actually voted anyone yet and I don't remember you saying you're scumreading anyone in particular (I could be forgetting but if so then I dunno why you haven't actually voted them) and if my memory is right I've felt like you don't get very deep into scumreads+your reasonings for them when you're scum.

LLD is on Lukewarm's "do not kill" list and if it's an actual townread then it's absolutely not justified (and I mentioned in my post to Lukewarm that I might be taking it more seriously than how he feels about it)

[LavarManos]

Ye, I now understand the marci post hoc thing and it does look sorta sus. Would like to know the reasons others are townreading or at least nullreading her.
Reread tako. Ig I'm not hellbent on taking him out now. I'm still going to keep my vote there.

[Lukewarm]

Also maybe this is me being annoying about taking "don't want to kill" being stronger than you might actually mean it but I feel like nobody except fire and Bell (post-claim and ONLY for today) being on that list is justifiable in my eyes

I meant, Don't want to kill Day 1. The bar is not incredibly high for that seeing as how we only get to kill 1 person

I feel like you're underestimating LLD (especially) & VPB's general ability as scum, Enchant has a very high chance of being my Invictus target by the end of the day if her posting doesn't improve, and Kovu's like. fine?

This feels rooted in the idea that my "I don't want to kill them" means that I am town locking them, so is largely away from my own thinking in a way that is hard for me to really engage with.

I don't think they look town yet but it does seem like you've played with Andante before and probably have a baseline idea of either their town or scum play.

Seeing you say this, I am realizing that I have played with literally everyone on my do not kill list lol.

[gorilla]

*whispering* I think Gammagooey is town

[fireisredsir]

maybe this won't mean much coming from me since i often sus vp when he's town and therefore my credibility is shot but whatever i think its a point that needs to be made and nobody else is gonna do it

i was somewhat skimming earlier today and noticed that vp was being kinda aggressive and picking fights that he didn't really need to take if he were scum and etc., and i kinda thought hmm maybe it is just town vp

buuuut when i got a chance to read more thoroughly now i couldn't help but notice that all of that... came right after bell made 347... where he called out vp as suspicious basically for being too nice and not picking fights (since that is kinda vp scum meta). and then vp right away attacks kovu out of nowhere and starts acting all bluster-y with posts like 375 and 376

kiiinda think thats a little too convenient of timing for my liking

and i think a lot of his takes on recent pages are too bad to be real

VOTE: VP Baltar

[fireisredsir]

bell should not be a wagon, especially now

marci can be, altho she's been a bit better lately

lavar and/or takotsubo should be, don't think cakez' lhf point about lavar is a good one here

[VP Baltar]

and i think a lot of his takes on recent pages are too bad to be real

What takes are those? There are a lot of them afterall

[fireisredsir]

ok if you want a list:

1) the whole thing with gorilla's poe list. should have better comprehension skills than that

2) your point about kovu was p bad and felt forced, like idk why you would feel that was important to discuss as town

3) saying scum!bell implies scum kovu and enchant. i don't think that team really makes sense under any scrutiny and there isn't really a good reason for you to think that it makes sense (feel free to explain if you do have a good reason, 377 doesn't count). it just feels like a made up thought to look like you're hero solving cause people townread that for some reason

4) i think 378 is a p weak interpretation of bell's posts

5) 391 can't be a real thought you had, there's no way

[VP Baltar]

You literally can't think those things. (There, now we are making the same arguments.)

But seriously, alot of you telling me what I can or cannot think, which is pretty ridiculous. Every point you just made comes down to you saying I'm bad, which ... isn't a good point. There isn't a reason to call me scum, or even a demonstration of scum motive in the slightest, just you trying to play arbiter of what is a worthwhile discussion to have.

[fireisredsir]

yes

literally you asked me what bad takes you had and then when i told you what they were you reply with "well those are just takes that you think are bad"

like ??? what did you expect

[fireisredsir]

i wasn't gonna elaborate on them before you asked bc like you said its not super worthwhile to argue about that point and it isn't even a very significant one

but you asked so i answered

the obvious reason why having bad takes makes you more likely to be scum is that it does not display what looks like a town thought process from someone who is genuinely attempting to solve the game

[VP Baltar]

yes

literally you asked me what bad takes you had and then when i told you what they were you reply with "well those are just takes that you think are bad"

like ??? what did you expect

I assumed by "bad" you meant "scummy", since that's literally the game we are playing.

Your disagreements for disagreement sake don't matter, nor are they good, as youre stating. For example, gorilla's PoE clearly did need scrutiny since there is more gray area in and out of there than was clear from the original post. Or the fact you think Bell's readslist isn't incredibly stuffed with fence sitting when it self-evidently is.

Having "bad" takes does not equal scum motivation, and I don't believe you actually think that. I am certain I've seen you call people town who you thought had bad takes before. I think you're just obsessed with the idea youre going to catch me as scum sometime, and so every game we play you express this confirmation bias about me being scum (except when I'm actually scum lol).

[fireisredsir]

i spent 90% of the post talking about how you were taking action that i felt had scum motivation

then i had one line mentioning that its hard to see you as town anyway when you have bad takes that don't feel like town thought process

and then you ask me to expand on that one line and then when i do you jump on that and talk about how my suspicion is baseless because of something that it was never even based on

kinda hard to see that as town behavior

[fireisredsir]

like trust me i wish i was townreading you here i would prefer that

i don't even really want to push this very strongly bc im not that confident that im right and i keep doubting myself due to being wrong before but like

i also can't just ignore what i see

i don't think im just blindly walking into another incorrect scumread like you're portraying me as. ive thought about it a lot and i think my reasons are different and more accurate than previously

[Val89]

I don't think it's a good idea to share invictus targets tbh

Why?

I agree, but my reasoning there was also why I said I don't think it's a good idea to share comprehensive reads list, because it may well help scum infer whom you invictus target may be, even if you don't explicitly say exactly who it is. Of all the slots in the game, yours is the one that I associate most strongly with having taken the contrary position, so I am surprised to see you also being the one to say sharing invictus targets is not a good idea.

Do you have a different reason for saying so from me that can explain that disconnect?

[Val89]

Back in 131, I said the fact that an early datisi wagon built up was interesting, and it was unlikely mafia was going to be driving it, which said to me that whatever feelings of unease I had with datisi were probably shared by other town.

I appear now, along with marci (interestingly enough, exactly the slots Lukewarm has voted for this game, while never actually taking a position on datisi itself, except to say the "The flurry of votes on datisi is surprising"), to be the remaining votes on that wagon. It has dissipated, but my understanding is that is has done because others have not shared the vibes, gut-feelings, 'off-beat'; whatever you want to call them, that datisi himself told us on three occasions (60, 133, 146) we should have picked up, because he knows he was being off himself.

I've gone back and had a look for mentions of datisi or the wagon, because my gut feeling was no-one was actually townreading datisi, and in doing so noted a few things:

Spoiler: Other reads on datisi

Kovu on Datisi:

Datisi – I don’t get the votes here, datisi actually seems fine so far, and how he’s handling the votes seems ok too like, I honestly think it’s a little unfair of the expectations people have on Datisi compared to a lot of the others so far, like, why is it perfectly acceptable to only talk in Shakespeare, yet, datisi just exists and votes are flying there and people are all “you need to interact!!!” but like, what if the vote on Datisi comes with 0 content?? How is he supposed to interact with “vote:datisi cuz vibes” like… For multiple reasons, I town lean him for now

Is there another way to read this other than "datisi is town because val voted for it?". This appears to the start of a bit of a pattern, in that there appears to a tendency to discount scum!datisi because of a dislike of those on the wagon, and to dislike those slots because...they are on the datisi wagon.

First, the counterexamples:

Datisi wagon bad imo
Think Datisi >Rand town

I think the wagon is on town!dats + there is scum on it

No explanation given for why datisi is town, but not unusual for Dwlee.

I have to say that this might lean more towards a Datisi town rather than a Datisi scum for the nonchalant behavior.
UNVOTE: datisi

This is actually the only example of an explained read on datisi that I could find. This unvote actually earns takotsubo a townread from datisi, although I had mentioned I thought an unvote there, if the goal was a reaction test, rather than moving to another wagon was a llittle odd.

That appears to be your lot as far as why datisi can be town. There is a mention from gamma at 161, where they say they agree that datisi having different reads to marci is not a good reason to scumread datisi, and at 309 suggests they were happy to push bell because datisi also pushed them, while suggesting two others gamma found scummy, which would suggest an implied townread there, but the other mentions have been neutral at best

Not really thrilled with Datisi returning with a vote on marcistar.

Next mention of datisi by gorilla:

Somewhat confused that Datisi is still the lead wagon, and that most of the votes there are from RVS. The cakez vote on him is kind of bad. I prefer the marci votes to the ones on Bell, don't get why people are hopping there.

Meuh has this to say:

Datisi’s 260 looks pretty bad to me tbh. I’m conflicted on its alignment. His early posting which bothered people didn’t bother me but some of his more recent posting rubs me the wrong way. Still not particularly compelled to push there

Finally, bell:

Datisi, is just....Meh this game. They feel plain. But I don't know what to make of it.

This list might not be entirely comprehensive; but it's all the mentions I spotted while going through looking to see why the datisi wagon fell away, and it's enough to see the pattern.

TLDR: It wasn't quite true

nobody

was townreading datisi, but an awful lot of effort has been expanded shading slots on a wagon on someone who is, at the strongest read given, >rand town and 'meh', without anyone really sticking their neck out to defend datisi. I won't be shocked at all to see that flip scum and my vote is staying there for now.